Jump to content

Photo

I Need Advice


11 replies to this topic

#1 usernayme

usernayme

    New Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 2
About Me
  • Joined: 07-September 13

Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:06 AM

I've had acne since around 7th grade.  I'm now 21.  Only around 6-7 months ago I decided to see a dermatologist for acne.  I have no idea why it took me so long, but my acne was starting to get terrible at that time.  I got on some topical treatments and doxycycline, and it seemed to be doing the trick but it has really started to come back after I've been done with the doxycycline because I was never really fully cured in the first place.  

 

In about 15-20 weeks I'll be doing over the road trucking and my acne is starting to get bad again.  I want to punch a hole in the wall right now because of this.  I feel like I need to get on accutane to actually cure my acne in time to have my face fully cleared by the time i start my job.  Once I'm clear, it should be much easier to maintain good skin quality.  The problem with trucking is that you're home pretty much only on the weekends.  If the topical medication is not working, then it will be nearly impossible to schedule an appointment to try something else.  If I do end up scheduling an appointment and trying something else, or wasting my time and having the dermatologist to tell me to keep doing what I'm doing, then how am I going to balance and find time to always do some sort of treatment regimen.  Simply put, I am really not seeing topical medication working for me (as it hasn't been) and definitely not while being a trucker.  Probably the main reason that I need to get rid of my acne before I start a job as a trucker is because the job will take dedication and being on top of things.  This is what I want to do for a few years at least and I really don't want to deal with the emotional burden of knowing that I'm stuck with worsening acne on top of a probably stressful job.  

 

The problem is that my dermatologist seems reluctant to prescribe accutane and reluctant to listen to me.  If I go to another dermatologist, I know that they will say they need to start me on something else and then consider accutane after I have tried everything.  FUCK, I don't have time to try shit out...   I rarely get acne that isn't cystic.  Its about 1 or 2 new cystic nodules every time I wake up.  From what I've read, accutane is a harsh drug, but often overhyped.  Without trying to boast here, I'm an active and healthy individual and I've dealt with intense physical pain and recovery periods.  I have no doubt I'd be able to handle chapped lips and dry skin.  Perhaps cystic acne is even more painful? There really isn't that high of a risk, especially when you consider the blood tests. 

 

If you read this, thank you.  Now, I'm going to try to sleep, despite feeling like I want to punch a hole in the wall.  



#2 Quetzlcoatl

Quetzlcoatl

    Member

  • Veteran Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 482
    Likes: 58
About Me
  • Joined: 04-March 13

Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:15 AM

In my experience any many others' cystic acne that seems to randomly pop up is often due to a food sensitivity. To what food - I don't know. It's different for everyone. But you can start by taking out obvious stuff: dairy and wheat. Citrus seems to be a common antigen too.

 

The thing with accutane is that it's not really causing pain or discomfort in the short term (I mean dry skin, yeah ok not really a problem). The problem is that it can cause permanent damage to your body, sometimes crippling. Things you can't recover from. Accutane is a chemotherapy - a drug used for treating cancer. It works by killing off stem cells/inhibiting their growth (which is why some people experience hair loss).

 

I would try some diet changes mentioned above first. You could also try another topical treatment at the same time. BP could work, but cystic/nodular acne really needs an internal approach.



#3 EmilieSea

EmilieSea

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 26
    Blog Entries: 13
    Likes: 9
About Me
  • Gender:Female
  • Joined: 25-August 13

Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:35 AM

Fuck the derm, go to your local GP like I did and refuse to leave until he sends off a letter to your derm and tells him to put you on Accutane. Beg if you have too. If you've had it your whole life, then it's not going to go away on it's own. They should know that. You said 15-20 weeks right? See, usually a Tane treatment is 6 months, so even if you did go on it, you would be practically in the middle of treatment.

 

But unfortunately, you do have try shitloads of crap before they put you on it. I had to failed 3 different medications before they even let me go for a blood test. You never know, one of them may work. You may just have to tough it out for this one and try a few things. You'll eventually end up on Tane (if you don't, you've probably found something that works for you) but in the mean time, all you can do is test. I hope everything works out for you. I know how awful it feels, but that's just what we have to deal with when we have acne :/

 

Just think, by this time next year, you'll have a clear face :)

Good luck.



Also, it's not just dry lips and chapped skin. You're going to be a truck driver, so you will have to wear sunscreen literally every moment you're out in the sun. And don't forget that it can also cause depression, despite your fitness level. Just make sure you're prepared to deal with the side effects.



#4 usernayme

usernayme

    New Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 2
About Me
  • Joined: 07-September 13

Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:46 AM

In my experience any many others' cystic acne that seems to randomly pop up is often due to a food sensitivity. To what food - I don't know. It's different for everyone. But you can start by taking out obvious stuff: dairy and wheat. Citrus seems to be a common antigen too.

 

The thing with accutane is that it's not really causing pain or discomfort in the short term (I mean dry skin, yeah ok not really a problem). The problem is that it can cause permanent damage to your body, sometimes crippling. Things you can't recover from. Accutane is a chemotherapy - a drug used for treating cancer. It works by killing off stem cells/inhibiting their growth (which is why some people experience hair loss).

 

I would try some diet changes mentioned above first. You could also try another topical treatment at the same time. BP could work, but cystic/nodular acne really needs an internal approach.

 

 

I agree that cystic/nodular acne really needs an internal approach which I why I feel the need to get on accutane.  You think I'm going to be able to "fix my diet" being a trucker?  I need to get rid of it and while actually getting rid of it try to change my diet to something better.  I'm already trying to take a multi, omega 3s, omega 6's, zinc, probiotic, digestive enzymes, and eating a more balanced diet.  This is hard for me as is even with my relatively loose schedule because preparing meals costs a lot of money and takes time.  Its also something I have to learn more about.  I guess I've been putting this off for a while now, but one day I'd love to really get into the cooking and nutrition stuff but I feel it can be like a part time job.  Taking supplements and trying to eat a more balanced, healthy diet hasn't really helped much btw, but I will continue to do it just for the health benefits.

 

As far as the crippling effects of accutane.  I've known at least several people who have used it who now have perfect skin and who have had bad acne.  If anything goes wrong, I'll be having the blood tests, eating healthy, excercising, not drinking alcohol or doing illegal substances. (never have and I can't because of drug tests with trucking)  The thing is, is that I'm a fucking adult now.  Cystic acne will not fucking go away without real treatment and I need to do something quick because I will literally not have time to do something about it if I want to get rid of it and continue my proposed short or long term career.  I think I'd have a mental breakdown if I was 3,000 miles from home breaking out absolutely terrible, knowing that I'd basically need to quit my job for a couple years so I could have clear skin and start the cycle of "trying everything, before you go on accutane because it a serious drug" thing.  Then I'd need to start my career over again ffs.  The problem is, is that I may never actually have clear skin if I don't go on accutane either because topicals and other orals might clear me better, but it would still linger, and I'd never had bad enough acne to go on accutane and actually nuke the problem.

 

Acne in teenagers is normal, and pretty harmless before it gets too bad.  Cystic acne in adults is abnormal and makes you look unprofessional or like a slob.  Its a serious fucking issue.  Not something to be taken lightly and fucked around with.

 

Fuck the derm, go to your local GP like I did and refuse to leave until he sends off a letter to your derm and tells him to put you on Accutane. Beg if you have too. If you've had it your whole life, then it's not going to go away on it's own. They should know that. You said 15-20 weeks right? See, usually a Tane treatment is 6 months, so even if you did go on it, you would be practically in the middle of treatment.

 

But unfortunately, you do have try shitloads of crap before they put you on it. I had to failed 3 different medications before they even let me go for a blood test. You never know, one of them may work. You may just have to tough it out for this one and try a few things. You'll eventually end up on Tane (if you don't, you've probably found something that works for you) but in the mean time, all you can do is test. I hope everything works out for you. I know how awful it feels, but that's just what we have to deal with when we have acne :/

 

Just think, by this time next year, you'll have a clear face smile.png

Good luck.



Also, it's not just dry lips and chapped skin. You're going to be a truck driver, so you will have to wear sunscreen literally every moment you're out in the sun. And don't forget that it can also cause depression, despite your fitness level. Just make sure you're prepared to deal with the side effects.

 

Thanks for the response.  I already deal with depression to an extent.  If it does cause crippling depression, well then I guess I'd have to do something else but even if it did, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell.  As far as I'm concerned, I think I could deal it until the cycle was over.  To be honest, acne, and not having a reliable source of income are huge contributors to my depression, so I'm willing to take the gamble and say that it will be better in the long run despite both the possible and expected side effects.

 

I might try going to a general practitioner, but I feel that they would be the same.  A problem with a lot of doctors is that they are all great at acing tests (graduating med school), but can't really break the rules.  IMO, most real world cases involve gray areas.
 

I will definitely wear sunscreen while I'm out driving, good point.  Do you have any sunscreens that are acne friendly that you know of?  

 

Also.  Do I make sense?  Do I have legitimate concerns? or am I overreacting to this?  


Edited by usernayme, 08 September 2013 - 11:11 AM.


#5 Quetzlcoatl

Quetzlcoatl

    Member

  • Veteran Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 482
    Likes: 58
About Me
  • Joined: 04-March 13

Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:15 PM

In that case I would try the accutane immediately. If you really are having no luck at all with doctors and feel like you want to take the risk, you can buy accutane from an online pharmacy and have them ship it to you. Inhousepharmacy.biz I believe is the one I would use, they're located on an island north of New Zealand. I've ordered several prescription medications from them (bactrim, fluconazone, itraconazole) and they always arrived within the specified date and were actually the correct drug. I say this is risky because it's risky to be on accutane without a doctor's supervision. But if you feel that you have no other choice, then you should be able to make the choice yourself.



#6 EmilieSea

EmilieSea

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 26
    Blog Entries: 13
    Likes: 9
About Me
  • Gender:Female
  • Joined: 25-August 13

Posted 09 September 2013 - 02:38 AM

I know what you mean about the depression. I have suffered it for years, and it was at it's worst before I started the tane. If you can already handle it, then it shouldn't effect you on the cycle. Honestly, the positives outweigh the negatives with Accutane, and I highly suggest you go for it. I honestly know how much acne contributes to depression, I feel your pain. But in the end, they are just pimples, and while they can be such a massive blow to your self-esteem, we are our own worst critics and most people don't think of us as bad as we do.

 

Sunscreen honestly is such a big thing. I forgot to put it on yesterday, and after being in the sun for 10 minutes, I was as red as a beetroot.

I'm not sure if it's available anywhere else, but in Australia we have a sunscreen called "Sunsense" and that's pretty good. Most sunscreens with moisturizers and pretty good for acne prone skin. Make sure you have a 30+ - 50+ SPF sunscreen, otherwise the weak crap won't help.

 

Good luck. Message me if you have any other questions or need advice :)



#7 usernayme

usernayme

    New Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 2
About Me
  • Joined: 07-September 13

Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:00 PM

I know what you mean about the depression. I have suffered it for years, and it was at it's worst before I started the tane. If you can already handle it, then it shouldn't effect you on the cycle. Honestly, the positives outweigh the negatives with Accutane, and I highly suggest you go for it. I honestly know how much acne contributes to depression, I feel your pain. But in the end, they are just pimples, and while they can be such a massive blow to your self-esteem, we are our own worst critics and most people don't think of us as bad as we do.

 

Sunscreen honestly is such a big thing. I forgot to put it on yesterday, and after being in the sun for 10 minutes, I was as red as a beetroot.

I'm not sure if it's available anywhere else, but in Australia we have a sunscreen called "Sunsense" and that's pretty good. Most sunscreens with moisturizers and pretty good for acne prone skin. Make sure you have a 30+ - 50+ SPF sunscreen, otherwise the weak crap won't help.

 

Good luck. Message me if you have any other questions or need advice smile.png

 

 

Well, in relation to the depression, I think its the acne that throws me over the edge and has been throwing me over the edge lately.  I can deal with acne on my face for a bit, but when it gets worse every fucking day and the possibility of it staying there for another 2-3 or even 10 years is dreadful.  If the derm will never put me on accutane because my acne isn't bad enough, or I need to try another 3-4 things first, which would take over a year at least, then I'll probably never wipe this out fully.  I'm not trying to be my worst critic, but the thing is, is that whether people are being consciously critical or not, it makes you look bad.  Not just in overall skin tone, but I think it makes your face look inflamed, swollen, puffy, bloated, etc.

 

Thanks for the advice.  Good luck your with accutane cycle.  It seems to be working quick.

 

In that case I would try the accutane immediately. If you really are having no luck at all with doctors and feel like you want to take the risk, you can buy accutane from an online pharmacy and have them ship it to you. Inhousepharmacy.biz I believe is the one I would use, they're located on an island north of New Zealand. I've ordered several prescription medications from them (bactrim, fluconazone, itraconazole) and they always arrived within the specified date and were actually the correct drug. I say this is risky because it's risky to be on accutane without a doctor's supervision. But if you feel that you have no other choice, then you should be able to make the choice yourself.

 

I say I'm not worried about the risks, but that is only because they give you blood tests when it gets prescribed to you.  I probably wouldn't do it without professional supervision.  I don't really have the money for that anyways.  

 

The other thing that the derm seems to just completely ignore is that I like to be very active.  I sweat a lot and get dirty and I can't just quit that altogether to see if my acne will get better.  Even with the topicals, I feel like I have to sit down all day, never touch my face, and keep my haircut really short.  In the end, the problem with my acne is that everything is overdrying and stripping the face of natural oils in everything I've tried.  I've actually gotten smaller cystic pimples the past few days because I quit using everything.  Before I would apply very very little retin-a before bed and I'd always wake up extremely oily with a huge, deep, painful cyst that would take weeks to go away.  Then, the sparse amounts of clindamycin in the morning and afternoon did the same thing with my body overproducing oil to combat the over drying.

 

I think I might make an appointment with my derm and give him some rationality (I'm being rational, right?) Hopefully he doesn't give me another cookie cutter dialogue that he probably says to every patient, like just be patient.  I'm quickly running out of time.



#8 Twosteps

Twosteps

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 25
    Likes: 1
About Me
  • Joined: 12-September 13

Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:44 PM

I agree with you 100% that as an adult job seeker acne makes you look sloppy and unprofessional.  It sucks.  But going on accutane is a very serious decision.  

 

I had moderate acne in high school and the dermatologist I had been seeing for a few years refused to write scripts for accutane because he thought it was ethically irresponsible.  I switched dermatologists to get accutane and 7 years later I still have acne.  I was a three sport athlete with great grades, a good looking girl and lots of friends and I plunged into a serious depression that eventually spiraled into social anxiety which still lingers today.  I had monthly blood tests done and it jacked up my blood pressure and cholesterol and eventually had to stop after 4 months.  More side effects I have to live with are excessive hair growth and arthritis in my wrists, hands, knees and hips... I'm 23.

 

I think a lot of us believe accutane is the cure for acne and we get upset when our derms deny it from us.  It helps a lot of people but it is not the only way to clear up your skin.  My first derm frustrated me SO much for not writing me that script but god damn was he looking out for me.  Down the road this arthritis will most likely lower my quality of life more than acne ever could.

 

It's impossible to know for sure that accutane caused all these side effects but my doctors and I agree that it took a serious toll on my body.



#9 Searchandseek

Searchandseek

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 49
    Likes: 3
About Me
  • Joined: 27-August 13

Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:51 AM

Accutane requires monitoring your blood every month, coming in for check ups, and avoiding the sun. If your trucking job interferes with that, you need to take some time off to work on your skin if you can.

Accutane is a temporary problem stopper, but its not permanent. My acne came back after accutane, but it do a good job at getting rid of my worst acne at that time and I'm glad I did it.

#10 usernayme

usernayme

    New Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 2
About Me
  • Joined: 07-September 13

Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:18 AM

Accutane requires monitoring your blood every month, coming in for check ups, and avoiding the sun. If your trucking job interferes with that, you need to take some time off to work on your skin if you can.

Accutane is a temporary problem stopper, but its not permanent. My acne came back after accutane, but it do a good job at getting rid of my worst acne at that time and I'm glad I did it.

 

I've been having better results than topicals using absolutely nothing lately.  I've been washing my face with honey and trying to do it only twice a day.  I've also been trying to clean up my diet.  The problem is when I think I need to wash my face 3-4 times or more a day which dries it out and makes it more oily.  I'm positive that I can prevent acne from coming back after it is GONE out of my system completely.  This is why accutane is something I wish I could go on.  I need acne out of my system completely, or I feel it may linger on forever. 

 

I agree with you 100% that as an adult job seeker acne makes you look sloppy and unprofessional.  It sucks.  But going on accutane is a very serious decision.  

 

I had moderate acne in high school and the dermatologist I had been seeing for a few years refused to write scripts for accutane because he thought it was ethically irresponsible.  I switched dermatologists to get accutane and 7 years later I still have acne.  I was a three sport athlete with great grades, a good looking girl and lots of friends and I plunged into a serious depression that eventually spiraled into social anxiety which still lingers today.  I had monthly blood tests done and it jacked up my blood pressure and cholesterol and eventually had to stop after 4 months.  More side effects I have to live with are excessive hair growth and arthritis in my wrists, hands, knees and hips... I'm 23.

 

I think a lot of us believe accutane is the cure for acne and we get upset when our derms deny it from us.  It helps a lot of people but it is not the only way to clear up your skin.  My first derm frustrated me SO much for not writing me that script but god damn was he looking out for me.  Down the road this arthritis will most likely lower my quality of life more than acne ever could.

 

It's impossible to know for sure that accutane caused all these side effects but my doctors and I agree that it took a serious toll on my body.

 

Excessive hair growth can't be that bad right?  Also, I have heard that the effects of accutane can be worse for women than men.  

 

I'm not saying its a risk, but its a calculated risk very worth taking IMO depending on the person.  When you're 15, acne doesn't matter as much since its so prevalent.  When you're an adult, it does matter much more.  



#11 EmilieSea

EmilieSea

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 26
    Blog Entries: 13
    Likes: 9
About Me
  • Gender:Female
  • Joined: 25-August 13

Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:10 AM

Accutane requires monitoring your blood every month, coming in for check ups, and avoiding the sun. If your trucking job interferes with that, you need to take some time off to work on your skin if you can.

Accutane is a temporary problem stopper, but its not permanent. My acne came back after accutane, but it do a good job at getting rid of my worst acne at that time and I'm glad I did it.

 

I've been having better results than topicals using absolutely nothing lately.  I've been washing my face with honey and trying to do it only twice a day.  I've also been trying to clean up my diet.  The problem is when I think I need to wash my face 3-4 times or more a day which dries it out and makes it more oily.  I'm positive that I can prevent acne from coming back after it is GONE out of my system completely.  This is why accutane is something I wish I could go on.  I need acne out of my system completely, or I feel it may linger on forever. 

 

>I agree with you 100% that as an adult job seeker acne makes you look sloppy and unprofessional.  It sucks.  But going on accutane is a very serious decision.  

 

I had moderate acne in high school and the dermatologist I had been seeing for a few years refused to write scripts for accutane because he thought it was ethically irresponsible.  I switched dermatologists to get accutane and 7 years later I still have acne.  I was a three sport athlete with great grades, a good looking girl and lots of friends and I plunged into a serious depression that eventually spiraled into social anxiety which still lingers today.  I had monthly blood tests done and it jacked up my blood pressure and cholesterol and eventually had to stop after 4 months.  More side effects I have to live with are excessive hair growth and arthritis in my wrists, hands, knees and hips... I'm 23.

 

I think a lot of us believe accutane is the cure for acne and we get upset when our derms deny it from us.  It helps a lot of people but it is not the only way to clear up your skin.  My first derm frustrated me SO much for not writing me that script but god damn was he looking out for me.  Down the road this arthritis will most likely lower my quality of life more than acne ever could.

 

It's impossible to know for sure that accutane caused all these side effects but my doctors and I agree that it took a serious toll on my body.

 

Excessive hair growth can't be that bad right?  Also, I have heard that the effects of accutane can be worse for women than men.  

 

I'm not saying its a risk, but its a calculated risk very worth taking IMO depending on the person.  When you're 15, acne doesn't matter as much since its so prevalent.  When you're an adult, it does matter much more.  

 

I experienced for excessive hair growth for a bit. For guys, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle but when you're a girl, it's not pleasant.
 

You know, people all experience medications differently, so don't take someones advice just because they had it worse off than most. Arthritis must be ones of the rarest side effects, and I feel really bad that someone actually had to experience that. When acne takes over your life though, some of those side effects seem like a small price to pay when you think of clear skin. 

 

There may be a reason that your derm/doctor doesn't want you to go on accutane. It's a super high maintenance drug. I'm having my 3rd blood test next week, and I've barely been on it for 2 weeks. It also affects your love/sex life. You have to be super super careful during sex, because accutane had a 99% chance of birth defects. 

 

As much as we all wish it could happen, we can't just get rid of acne when we decide too. You may just have to try out some of the medications. Derms will only put you on  Accutane if it is your last resort (which it never usually is for most people.) 

 

You need to have a long talk with your doctor because it sounds like you would respond well to the drug. If they disagree, ask them why. Why won't they put you on it? Doctors bullshit a lot. It took my doctor 6 years to stop pissing me around before he said I could go on Roaccutane. Even then, I had to ask. Not him telling me. 

 

I honestly hope that you find something that works for you. Good luck.



#12 usernayme

usernayme

    New Member

  • Members
  • Posts & Likes
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 2
About Me
  • Joined: 07-September 13

Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:30 PM

I experienced for excessive hair growth for a bit. For guys, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle but when you're a girl, it's not pleasant.



 

You know, people all experience medications differently, so don't take someones advice just because they had it worse off than most. Arthritis must be ones of the rarest side effects, and I feel really bad that someone actually had to experience that. When acne takes over your life though, some of those side effects seem like a small price to pay when you think of clear skin. 

 

There may be a reason that your derm/doctor doesn't want you to go on accutane. It's a super high maintenance drug. I'm having my 3rd blood test next week, and I've barely been on it for 2 weeks. It also affects your love/sex life. You have to be super super careful during sex, because accutane had a 99% chance of birth defects. 

 

As much as we all wish it could happen, we can't just get rid of acne when we decide too. You may just have to try out some of the medications. Derms will only put you on  Accutane if it is your last resort (which it never usually is for most people.) 

 

You need to have a long talk with your doctor because it sounds like you would respond well to the drug. If they disagree, ask them why. Why won't they put you on it? Doctors bullshit a lot. It took my doctor 6 years to stop pissing me around before he said I could go on Roaccutane. Even then, I had to ask. Not him telling me. 

 

I honestly hope that you find something that works for you. Good luck.

 

Unfortunately, I think that some (or many) medical doctors are weighted too much on the financial and liability side of things rather than a closer analysis of each patient (because thats too hard and doesn't even pay any more, right?)  What results is routine, cookie cutter treatment for nearly all patients regardless of diversity.  I think its relatively unethical to take the job as a business over goodwill and health to the people, because after all, medical doctors can rake in cash from people who need the money, which isn't even doing any good to the economy.  

 

The reason I wanted to go on accutane in the first place is because I examined the consequences, my own situation, and the causes of my acne.  The problem with topical medications is that they caused my skin to overproduce oil since it would strip my skin of oil.  Right now, I'm doing absolutely nothing except washing my face with natural stuff, not touching my face, eating good, and taking supplements.  It SEEMS to be working pretty well if I don't overwash and don't touch my face much which causes irritation to very sensitive cysts.  If this doesn't work I'm going to demand accutane from a dermatologist/GP, or buy my own.  Gotta take life into your own hands every now and then.  Like you said, I'm pretty sure I would respond well to accutane.  

 

Also, according to what I've read, accutane only effects women in terms of birth defects and only while they are on the drug.  The last thing I'm trying to do is have a kid right now, ha.
 

Thanks for the support!!






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users