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Low-Fat Primitive Diet Is Working!


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#61 cvd

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:59 PM

I've never thought of this diet as being a sole remedy for acne. It may control acne for some people by itself but for other people like me, doing this diet IN ADDITION to the meds is what finally got me clear. However I do plan next year to try weaning off oral meds to see if I can stay clear on the diet and only using topical meds.

My digestion before starting this diet was not good. I had trouble with loose bowels (sorry) and lots of gas...my food was not digesting. This got really bad a couple of years ago and my doctor had me do allergy, gluten and fructose testing. I was put on a diet that restricted dairy, wheat, and sugars. I followed the diet faithfully and it also seemed to help my skin. Then I was tested again this year and it showed that I was no longer sensitive to wheat but still had problems with dairy and fructose. Interestingly this is often what other chronic acne sufferers also have problems with. Wheat is okay for me but sparingly and not everyday. I am not gluten sensitive...just seem to have a bit of a sensitivity to wheat. So I eat oats, rice and spelt. I try not to eat flour products too much because they are not as good for you as eating whole foods such as oats and rice. I learned that if you have digestive problems it is best to stick with whole foods as much as possible. You can eat potatoes (...they are a good food despite all the bad press on them...), yams and other starchy root vegetables such as parsnips. These foods are very common to cultures that do not get acne.

If you are sensitive to fructose you can usually eat berries and banana. I eat blueberries, strawberries, and blackberries everyday and bananas every other day or so.

If you are sensitive to grains then eat lots of root vegetables such as potatoes. If you eat red potatoes with their skins they are quite nutritious. Also rice is often good for people who are sensitive to other grains. Interestingly I can eat white rice but not brown rice. Brown rice does not digest for me due to the fructans but white rice is fine...and this goes along with Asian cultures that figured this out long ago...they have eaten white rice for centuries --- along with lots of greens for fiber.

I too am lower weight and can't afford to lose any weight so I fill up on homemade soups, root vegetables, eggs, and small amounts of wild fowl and fish...which is just like primitive cultures eat. I make big pots of soup...actually more like stews...by combining garlic, leeks, potatoes, yams, zucchini, beans, mushrooms and whatever other vegetables I have on hand. Simmer for an hour or two and voila you have dinner for a couple of nights and also topping for rice.

#62 cvd

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 11:55 AM

I continue to be amazed by how well I'm doing on this diet. My skin has stayed clear except for two days following a holiday trip to relatives where there was literally nothing to eat (only sugary foods or junk foods) and I got tired of fixing my own meals --- constantly dealing with questions of why I was eating rice, etc. Even then the flare-up was very minor...only couple of small red spots that went away very quickly - day or two at most. I had eaten sourdough bread and vegetables that were doused in some kind of sauce despite my trying to get them without. Because I'm so diligent about my diet I can easily determine what my triggers are. The flare-up occurred the day after eating that food.

Yesterday I was at a potluck and there was nothing to eat except for a huge salad I brought...literally nothing. All the food was smothered in cheese or oils and much of it looked like prepackaged junk food. There was nothing fresh except my salad. I wasn't prepared for that and was starved so caved in and ate some homemade garlic frenchbread. Today I have 1 tiny red spot that is fading now that I'm back on my diet.

This is so interesting to me! That the reaction could be so quick. When I follow my diet my skin is clear. Who knows what the triggers were (high glycemic white bread? butter? yeast?) But now I know without a shadow of a doubt that eventhough I may not be gluten sensitive I react to something in wheat, especially in the form of bread...and also to the butter since it is dairy and dairy always causes problems for me.

I can eat non-yeast brown rice flour foods like homemade waffles...and the same goes for spelt flour (homemade nonfat cornbread made with stoneground whole corn)...no problem. I just can't eat it everyday. As a treat once in awhile a brown rice waffle topped with fresh blueberries and sliced strawberries is divine!

Edited by cvd, 02 January 2014 - 11:58 AM.


#63 PlumpCaboose

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:06 PM

It's a shame you can never eat normally again and have to constantly worry about what you eat. The diet approach just isn't for me. If I have to stick to a diet to get clear skin then it's really not a solution. Dieting for me just made the problem worse. I found myself reacting to more and more foods and having to limit more and more foods until I just gave up and decided to eat like any normal person would. My skin is actually better since I've started eating normally. It got a lot worse at first then it sort of..evened out now it's not too bad. It could be that by limiting your diet you create more and more nutrient deficiencies. Like even dairy/chocolate and biscuits (cookies) are the main sources of some vitamins in most people's diets. I swear that people who have persistent acne into their 20s (who don't have hormonal problems like PCOS) all seem to follow a strict diet, whereas those who eat normally their acne usually just goes away after a while by itself. Who knows really...

 

I'm aware your acne is hormonal so there's not much else you can do..but for others on here it's just something to consider.



#64 alternativista

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:26 PM

It's a shame you can never eat normally again and have to constantly worry about what you eat. The diet approach just isn't for me. If I have to stick to a diet to get clear skin then it's really not a solution. Dieting for me just made the problem worse. I found myself reacting to more and more foods and having to limit more and more foods until I just gave up and decided to eat like any normal person would. My skin is actually better since I've started eating normally. It got a lot worse at first then it sort of..evened out now it's not too bad. It could be that by limiting your diet you create more and more nutrient deficiencies. Like even dairy/chocolate and biscuits (cookies) are the main sources of some vitamins in most people's diets. I swear that people who have persistent acne into their 20s (who don't have hormonal problems like PCOS) all seem to follow a strict diet, whereas those who eat normally their acne usually just goes away after a while by itself. Who knows really...
 
I'm aware your acne is hormonal so there's not much else you can do..but for others on here it's just something to consider.

CVD's diet is limited to nutrient rich quality foods. ,Normal' people follow diets filled with nutritionally void crap that make them sick and put them on a lifetime of drugs. Look around you.

Yeah. What a shame.

Edited by alternativista, 03 January 2014 - 08:26 PM.


#65 cvd

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:37 PM

People who continue to eat crap and their skin clears up probably are just outgrowing their acne. Many people's hormones don't stabilize until their late 20's and if they DON'T have other problems like pores that clog easily (skin cells don't shed properly) or sensitivity to sugars or sensitivity to hormones regardless of hormones being balanced (...stress releases cortisone and for sensitive folks that can be eneough to cause a flare-up), or other issues like rosacea or food allergies, etc. --- well they might find their skin clearing regardless of what they eat. But for those of us who do have one or more of those problems we will usually continue to have inflammatory skin problems. I guarantee you though that people who eat crap and continue to do so will get other inflammatory issues...and they become worse with age. I can't begin to tell you how old most of my friends look who eat crap and drink alcohol. They had/have clear skin but now most have heart problems or digestive issues and they take lots of serious medications. Far worse than the very low dose ones I take for my skin. I am extremely thankful in a way for my acne because it kept me trying to find what I could do to eat and live healthy...knowing that at least with those things I had some control. And with diligence I have been able to find a regime that keeps me clear. I truly believe that if I had access to the internet years ago that I would have been able to figure this all out much much sooner. I wonder if young people today realize how lucky they are to have access to research studies and the wisdom of those who have shared their stories. Amazing world we live in now!

That said...eating healthy (nutrient rich diet) and avoiding some common triggers has made my life a dream come true. I am so thankful for finally figuring this out.

#66 DanTheNewWorld

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:16 AM


That said...eating healthy (nutrient rich diet) and avoiding some common triggers has made my life a dream come true. I am so thankful for finally figuring this out

great!

 

"

Panoxyl 4 Cleanser (BP) - Cleocin-T Solution - DML Lotion - Physician's Choice SPF 30 Mineral Pressed Powder

Doxycycline 40 mg (anti-inflammatory dose - not antibiotic)

Spironolactone 100 mg

"

wait, what? you're also using Bp + Doxycycline + spironolactone, ..and that's your conclusion?



#67 WishClean

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:23 AM

^^ Yep. My point exactly. Diet is only one aspect of cvd's approach, but she already clarified that. FYI people who read these threads without logging in can't see a user's signature, so they might be led to believe that cvd's only approach to acne is diet, that's why it's useful to clarify that it's not just diet that is getting you clear and that you are mixing  a healthy approach with chemicals and drugs. 

Regardless, it's always useful to clean up your diet, especially when you are putting other synthetic and chemical crap inside and on your body. 



#68 cvd

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:28 PM

I think for some of us it takes a multi-prong approach to finally get clear.  Using meds alone never worked for me even after faithfully using them for years (except for accutane and full strength antibiotics).  My cysts went away but the pimples continued.  I know for many derms that is considered a success given how my skin was before...but I wasn't satisfied.  It wasn't until I added the diet and especially avoided oils that I got clear.  I realize now I should have titled my thread differently...but I was just so excited to get clear finally!  "Low-fat primitive diet helps get clear" would have been better or something like that and I would change it now but can't figure out how.



#69 dylonspythotfyre

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

I've been researching and experimenting with diets for the last six months. I am in my mid-20's and I had been taking minocycline, twice daily for a long time (with some interruptions), and using various topical treatments that contained benzoyl peroxide.

 

I tend to have a combination of cystic acne and larger, superficial breakouts on the surface of my skin when I do not use oral antibiotics and topicals. When I use oral antibiotics and topicals I only get a few breakouts here and there every week, probably 60-70% control.

 

I have tried a no-sugar diet which helped for a while and then my breakouts resumed. I tried a no-sugar, no-fat diet which helped improved my condition greatly but I lost 10 pounds and looked/felt sickly. I tried a no-fat diet and my condition improved initially and then deteriorated. For full disclosure, I always allow one cheat meal per week when I follow a diet, but every other meal is adhered to very strictly. I have fantastic self-control.

 

Two weeks ago, I decided to stop minocycline and topicals for good. I was "in between diets" and I broke out relatively severely. Long story short, I came across the Kitavan people in an article I read and decided to give the diet a shot. I follow this diet very strictly except for my one cheat meal. I have officially stopped oral antibiotics and topicals. I utilize, for reference, an interview I found with a Kitavan who detailed his diet. I drink no dairy. I drink no soy milk. I do not eat eggs, avocado, nor olive oil because these are excellent sources of ridiculously high amounts of Omega-6's and alternately low amounts of Omega-3 giving you a poor 6/3 ratio. I do not eat pasta, nor tortillas, nor rice, nor rice cakes. The Kitavans don't have any of these and I believe these foods are considered integral parts of the so-called Western diet. I do not drink tea, coffee or alcohol. That being said here is what I do eat:

 

2-3 meals a day. 

For one meal a tuber (potato, yam, etc.), leafy greens (usually kale or spinach), and fish stew with some salt and pepper and coconut cream.

For the other meal, a baked tuber, fresh leafy green salad, and some fish grilled on the stove using coconut oil. Salt and pepper for seasoning.

Throughout the day I eat lots of fresh, whole fruit to satiate my hunger.

If I am thirsty I drink water.

 

This is it. Just repeat. Funny how we complain that we can't have Mexican food again today because we just ate a burrito yesterday. And yet the Kitavans ate these same meals day in and day out.

 

For my cheat meal, I usually go out with family or friends. I drink alcohol, eat dairy, and any kind of meat. I eat ice cream. It's a food orgy and I look forward to it. But I still eat in moderation. And I take Omega-3 fish oil in advance to prepare for the onslaught of Omega-6's I get from the meal.

 

PS I always buy fish wild-caught. Farm raised are fed fish-food that is designed to bulk them up and will negatively impact their healthfulness for consumption. Wild fish eat sea plants, algae, and other fish. This will make the fat content of the fish far more healthful for consumption than farmed fish. Also note that some lakes stock their waters with farmed fish. So just because someone fishes for themselves at a local lake, it does not necessarily mean that the fish is wild-caught.


Edited by dylonspythotfyre, 13 January 2014 - 02:12 PM.


#70 cvd

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:18 PM

Your diet sounds very good and is following the Kitavan just about perfectly.  I understand what you say about have good control over your eating habits because I do too.  I've never been one to cave into cravings...and hence I rarely get cravings anymore!  And because I am so disciplined I can fairly accurately determine what foods are a problem for me.  I am not being as much of a purist as you are...mainly because my skin seems to tolerate avocado, soymilk, eggs and whole brown rice cakes.  I am not convinced that the Kitavan's don't eat eggs.  Most primitive cultures do.  I wish I could eat coconut products but I am allergic to them so to get some fat in my diet I rely on wild fish and avocado.  The amount of olive oil I use in cooking is so rediculously low (less than 1 tsp for entire meal serving whole family) that I doubt it would affect my omegas much.  I have to keep my weight up so rely on avocado and fatty wild fish.  Plus I do marathons so this is essential.  If my weight is getting too low (marathon training) and I've upped the rest of my diet as much as I can then I sometimes increase my waffle (whole spelt, no sugar or oil) or burrito intake...and can seem to do this with no problem.  I have to admit both the waffle and burrito have an teeny tiny amount of oil (waffle - quick spritz of olive on grill...burrito - teensy amount of oil in manufacture --- basically none) but they have absolutely no sugar or yeast ingredients which are strong triggers for my acne.

 

I have experimented with a combination of diets used by peoples with low body inflammation rates (acne, heart disease, etc.) and have concluded they all have basically the same rules with variations along the same theme.  Here is a list of diet staples of these various groups.  They all eat a bit of "forbidden" foods but only in very tiny amounts given total of other foods eaten during the week...much like we would (i.e. once a week "binge" for you or once a week waffle or burrito for me). 

 

Kitavan (no dairy, sugars, grains, flour, juices)

Fresh vegetables, fruits, tubors (yams, etc.), wild fish in small amounts, coconut oil 

 

Okinawan (no dairy, juices, flour, little if any sugar, grains, oils)

Fresh vegetables, lots of sweet potato (main starch), white rice, small amount of fish, tofu (main protein source), legumes, pork, seaweed, small amount of poultry and eggs 

 

Bantu (no sugar, flour, oils, juices)

Maize, beans, sorghum, vegetables, fruit, fish, sweet potatoes, small amount of wild game, meat and milk

 

Zulu (no sugar, flour, oil, juices)

Maize, cultured milk, beans, vegetables

 

Ache (no dairy, flour, oil, juices)

Roots, wild game, fruit, insects, palm hearst (starch), honey (seasonally)

 

Eat whole foods (varies according to season and locale) and mostly tubors (sweet potato) for starch.  Avoid all sugars, most oils, and dairy (research shows is connected to acne and most of these people do not eat dairy). 

 

I do this but do cheat a bit with my soy milk and infrequent waffle or burrito.  This seems to work for me.


Edited by cvd, 13 January 2014 - 02:19 PM.


#71 dylonspythotfyre

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:03 PM

Your diet sounds very good and is following the Kitavan just about perfectly.  I understand what you say about have good control over your eating habits because I do too.  I've never been one to cave into cravings...and hence I rarely get cravings anymore!  And because I am so disciplined I can fairly accurately determine what foods are a problem for me.  I am not being as much of a purist as you are...mainly because my skin seems to tolerate avocado, soymilk, eggs and whole brown rice cakes.  I am not convinced that the Kitavan's don't eat eggs.  Most primitive cultures do.  I wish I could eat coconut products but I am allergic to them so to get some fat in my diet I rely on wild fish and avocado.  The amount of olive oil I use in cooking is so rediculously low (less than 1 tsp for entire meal serving whole family) that I doubt it would affect my omegas much.  I have to keep my weight up so rely on avocado and fatty wild fish.  Plus I do marathons so this is essential.  If my weight is getting too low (marathon training) and I've upped the rest of my diet as much as I can then I sometimes increase my waffle (whole spelt, no sugar or oil) or burrito intake...and can seem to do this with no problem.  I have to admit both the waffle and burrito have an teeny tiny amount of oil (waffle - quick spritz of olive on grill...burrito - teensy amount of oil in manufacture --- basically none) but they have absolutely no sugar or yeast ingredients which are strong triggers for my acne.

 

I have experimented with a combination of diets used by peoples with low body inflammation rates (acne, heart disease, etc.) and have concluded they all have basically the same rules with variations along the same theme.  Here is a list of diet staples of these various groups.  They all eat a bit of "forbidden" foods but only in very tiny amounts given total of other foods eaten during the week...much like we would (i.e. once a week "binge" for you or once a week waffle or burrito for me). 

 

Kitavan (no dairy, sugars, grains, flour, juices)

Fresh vegetables, fruits, tubors (yams, etc.), wild fish in small amounts, coconut oil 

 

Okinawan (no dairy, juices, flour, little if any sugar, grains, oils)

Fresh vegetables, lots of sweet potato (main starch), white rice, small amount of fish, tofu (main protein source), legumes, pork, seaweed, small amount of poultry and eggs 

 

Bantu (no sugar, flour, oils, juices)

Maize, beans, sorghum, vegetables, fruit, fish, sweet potatoes, small amount of wild game, meat and milk

 

Zulu (no sugar, flour, oil, juices)

Maize, cultured milk, beans, vegetables

 

Ache (no dairy, flour, oil, juices)

Roots, wild game, fruit, insects, palm hearst (starch), honey (seasonally)

 

Eat whole foods (varies according to season and locale) and mostly tubors (sweet potato) for starch.  Avoid all sugars, most oils, and dairy (research shows is connected to acne and most of these people do not eat dairy). 

 

I do this but do cheat a bit with my soy milk and infrequent waffle or burrito.  This seems to work for me.

 

I think you and I would both agree that we can attack acne by making conscientious decisions about what we consume. That being said I have read through your thread and observed your progress and it seems that you still have occasional bouts with one or two outbreaks here and there. Granted these outbreaks are very small and not inflamed, but it is still something that is struggled with. Moreover, this 99% clearance is obtained in conjunction with topicals and oral antibiotics. This is not a criticism, but merely an expression of my desire to find a diet that won't give me simply 99% clearance and make me dependent on topicals and oral antibiotics. If we are correct in theorizing that acne is mediated by diet, then we shouldn't have to settle for anything less than a cure. 100% clearance.

 

I would be surprised if primitive cultures ate very many eggs. Probably once in a blue moon due to that fact that chicken domestication is not going to be something that happens on a large scale in a primitive, non-Westernized culture.

 

I would also like to point out that Kitavans eat fish every day so I wouldn't classify fish consumption as minimal or in small amounts.

 

Avocados have 3.8 grams of Omega-6 and a 6/3 ratio of 15:1. A scrambled egg has 4.2 grams of 6 and a ratio of 19 to 1. Olive oil has 21 grams of Omega-6 per serving and a 6/3 ratio of almost 13 to 1.

 

Most of the sources I have researched suggest an ideal ratio of 1 to 1 for 6/3, but the Western diet typically consumes far more Omega-6 in ratios of 20 or 30 to 1. I don't think an egg every now and then, a small amount of Avocado, or a little Olive Oil will kill anyone. But I wouldn't eat them every day, and in the interest of experimenting with the Kitavan food model I have to avoid them for a while. 

 

Thanks for giving me other sources of non-Westernized diets! If this Kitavan food diet works, then I will be looking to expand to other non-Westernized foods for a little diversity. Can I ask where you learned about these other non-Westernized diets? Is there a website where I can find them? Thanks.



#72 cvd

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:37 PM

I'm not sure about the egg part but after reading various sources it seems that many of these cultures will eat just about anything available in their locale and eggs from wild water fowl would be available...just a conjecture...and like you said, it would be minimal.  Most sites I have researched list the "typical" staple foods versus everything the people eat.  And many referred to small percentages of other foods eaten if they are available.  I don't have a list of the sites but you can easily look for them by googling "Kitavan diet" or whatever and then read everything.

 

I agree about the diet versus meds issue and the desire to get clear with only diet.  I was already on meds when I started really taking diet very seriously so I can't know for sure about what is causing what except to know that when I was doing the typical anti-acne diet and then stopped eating oil (except for teeny amount of olive oil in cooking) my acne dramatically cleared up --- I can't emphasize that strongly eneough.  I now rarely get any spots...the only ones being when I fell off the diet while traveling (...which is what you were probably read about...) and even then they were more like my old rosacea spots and went away very quickly. 

 

If I can get up the courage I am thinking about slowly weaning off at least my oral meds in the coming year to test the diet and see if it will keep me clear.

 

Regarding the omega issue I found it too hard to calculate all the time and instead decided to try to eat as close as I could to cultures that don't get acne.  Plus I have read some research that indicates how the body utilizes omega fatty acids depends on all foods eaten and how they interact with each other versus isolated foods which is how these omega ratios are figured out.  This is just what I've read and it makes sense to me.  It's the same issue as high glycemic foods.  Isolated foods may be high glycemic but when eaten in conjunction with other low glycemic foods it is not an inflammatory issue.  White rice is one of these foods.  When eaten with vegetables and fish the body doesn't get an inflammatory response because it is balanced out.

 

The whole thing is very interesting to me and I consider myself a novice but a very curious one!



#73 dylonspythotfyre

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:33 AM

I'm not sure about the egg part but after reading various sources it seems that many of these cultures will eat just about anything available in their locale and eggs from wild water fowl would be available...just a conjecture...and like you said, it would be minimal.  Most sites I have researched list the "typical" staple foods versus everything the people eat.  And many referred to small percentages of other foods eaten if they are available.  I don't have a list of the sites but you can easily look for them by googling "Kitavan diet" or whatever and then read everything.

 

Yes eggs would be minimal because scattered waterfowl aren't going to lay enough eggs for a tribe of people. From what I have read through google searches, eggs are very rarely part of the Kitavan diet.

 

 

If I can get up the courage I am thinking about slowly weaning off at least my oral meds in the coming year to test the diet and see if it will keep me clear.

 

Please do! I am curious to see how your body reacts!

 

 

Regarding the omega issue I found it too hard to calculate all the time and instead decided to try to eat as close as I could to cultures that don't get acne.  Plus I have read some research that indicates how the body utilizes omega fatty acids depends on all foods eaten and how they interact with each other versus isolated foods which is how these omega ratios are figured out.  This is just what I've read and it makes sense to me.  It's the same issue as high glycemic foods.  Isolated foods may be high glycemic but when eaten in conjunction with other low glycemic foods it is not an inflammatory issue.  White rice is one of these foods.  When eaten with vegetables and fish the body doesn't get an inflammatory response because it is balanced out.

 

This is true! Omega-3 and Omega-6 will competitively fight to be metabolized by the same enzymes in the human body. So if someone were to have a veggie breakfast with a little olive oil and an egg, then that meal would have far more Omega-6 and Omega-6 would win the fight to be metabolized. Similarly a burrito with white rice and avocado will have significantly more Omega-6 than Omega-3. Even sautéed rice with vegetables and a tinsy bit of olive oil will have more omega-6. You are correct in saying that it is not about the isolated food, but it is more about the meal as a whole.


Edited by dylonspythotfyre, 14 January 2014 - 01:39 AM.


#74 alternativista

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:48 AM

I'm not sure about the egg part but after reading various sources it seems that many of these cultures will eat just about anything available in their locale and eggs from wild water fowl would be available...just a conjecture...and like you said, it would be minimal.  Most sites I have researched list the "typical" staple foods versus everything the people eat.  And many referred to small percentages of other foods eaten if they are available.  I don't have a list of the sites but you can easily look for them by googling "Kitavan diet" or whatever and then read everything.

 
Yes eggs would be minimal because scattered waterfowl aren't going to lay enough eggs for a tribe of people. From what I have read through google searches, eggs are very rarely part of the Kitavan diet.
 
 

If I can get up the courage I am thinking about slowly weaning off at least my oral meds in the coming year to test the diet and see if it will keep me clear.

 
Please do! I am curious to see how your body reacts!
 
 

Regarding the omega issue I found it too hard to calculate all the time and instead decided to try to eat as close as I could to cultures that don't get acne.  Plus I have read some research that indicates how the body utilizes omega fatty acids depends on all foods eaten and how they interact with each other versus isolated foods which is how these omega ratios are figured out.  This is just what I've read and it makes sense to me.  It's the same issue as high glycemic foods.  Isolated foods may be high glycemic but when eaten in conjunction with other low glycemic foods it is not an inflammatory issue.  White rice is one of these foods.  When eaten with vegetables and fish the body doesn't get an inflammatory response because it is balanced out.

 
This is true! Omega-3 and Omega-6 will competitively fight to be metabolized by the same enzymes in the human body. So if someone were to have a veggie breakfast with a little olive oil and an egg, then that meal would have far more Omega-6 and Omega-6 would win the fight to be metabolized. Similarly a burrito with white rice and avocado will have significantly more Omega-6 than Omega-3. Even sautéed rice with vegetables and a tinsy bit of olive oil will have more omega-6. You are correct in saying that it is not about the isolated food, but it is more about the meal as a whole.

Waterfowl don't tend to be scattered when nesting. Depends on the species but many nest very close together in rookeries.

#75 cvd

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:45 AM

All I know is that traditional native americans ate eggs they gathered from waterfowl that were abundant in the lake and river areas they resided in.  So I made a conjecture that native peoples that populate other similar areas would also gather eggs...just conjecture!  I am part native american and worked with a tribe here and know they also gathered grains (wild rice) and grew grains way back in prehistoric times that were pounded into pulses and flours, along with roots that were gathered and also pounded into flours.  Of course these flours are far different than our flour today...except for more traditional strains of wheat (i.e. whole spelt) and corn (almost impossible to get).  And their flour was not mixed with sugars or yeasts...only water and if available some salt.  They made flat breads and added flour to stews made from wild meats or fish and gathered greens.  These grains would have been high in Omega 6 but then everything else they ate in the day and week added up I'm sure to a rather good ratio...maybe not the 1:1 ratio that the Inuit ate but still what would be considered an anti-inflammatory diet. 

 

And actually the perfect ratio is more like 4:1 (omega 6 to omega 3) that the Japanese eat and that metabolizes to an almost 1:1 ratio of HUFA's in cell membranes (wikipedia).  This is important to consider when thinking about omega ratios --- you don't want competition within cell membranes.  This means not eating 1:1 because that doesn't factor in what happens within the body.  If you did always eat 1:1 then the ratio would be off within the body and cause other problems.  Or this is what researchers think.  No one knows absolutely for sure but I find it interesting that mankind ate a certain way for thousands and thousands of years and even in prehistoric times that included grinding roots and grains for flour.  However this was a precious expenditure of energy and wild grains were not easy to get so the amount was far less than we eat today.  It is the same thing with oil...seeds and fruit (olive) might have been manually pressed but very little was obtained making oil an extremely precious commodity.  This kept people healthy as long as there was an abundance of food. 

 

It was the advent of industrialization that turned everything on its head and made previously rare foods (oils, sugars, soft flours) so commonplace and cheap that they replaced the wild whole foods mankind ate and which our bodies need to stay healthy...and less inflammed.

 

I honestly believe you'd have to add up all foods eaten in a week to determine true omega ratios...not just in one food or one meal...and then the effect would be more calculable.  I know for me that I can eat some higher omega 6 foods (oatmeal, some soy milk in my tea, a small helping of pasta once a week, etc.) because all the other foods I eat are lower on omega 6 and I eat some rather high omega 3 foods such as salmon (often), chia seeds (daily) and tons of fresh vegetables that probably balance things out.  If I find myself eating bread everyday or foods swimming in solven-based cheap seed oils (canola, safflower, etc.) when I am traveling then I can count on a flare-up but it is very mild because I return to eating my diet as soon as I can. 

 

Oh --- I must also point out that the Japanese eat very closely to the recommended 4:1 (omega 6 to 3) but they eat white rice as their starch staple and wheat noodles and tofu which are all higher omega 6 foods...but they balance this with tons of vegetables and fish, etc and for the most part have beautiful skin.  One thing I learned from my chinese sister-in-law is that they use very little oil in cooking.  In fact this is where I learned to cook with just a smidgen of oil but then continue the cooking by adding water in small amounts and steaming as part of the saute process.  This is compared to what I read in most recipies these days where the norm is to add 2 tablespoons of oil which is a lot.  Plus my sister-in-law eats lots of dark leafy greens in just about every dish.  She rarely eats breads and is not partial to sugary foods.  She loves teas...and she has beautiful unwrinkled skin...just beautiful for a 50 year old.  I'd have to say that she was one of my first glimpses into eating different than I had been raised.  This was when I started avoiding dairy and started my understanding of the connection of food to acne. 


Edited by cvd, 14 January 2014 - 11:51 AM.


#76 dylonspythotfyre

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:36 PM

And actually the perfect ratio is more like 4:1 (omega 6 to omega 3) that the Japanese eat and that metabolizes to an almost 1:1 ratio of HUFA's in cell membranes (wikipedia).  This is important to consider when thinking about omega ratios --- you don't want competition within cell membranes.  This means not eating 1:1 because that doesn't factor in what happens within the body.  If you did always eat 1:1 then the ratio would be off within the body and cause other problems.  Or this is what researchers think.  No one knows absolutely for sure but I find it interesting that mankind ate a certain way for thousands and thousands of years and even in prehistoric times that included grinding roots and grains for flour.  However this was a precious expenditure of energy and wild grains were not easy to get so the amount was far less than we eat today.  It is the same thing with oil...seeds and fruit (olive) might have been manually pressed but very little was obtained making oil an extremely precious commodity.  This kept people healthy as long as there was an abundance of food.

A.P Simopoulos, The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids, Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy, Volume 56, Issue 8, October 2002, Pages 365-379, ISSN 0753-3322, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0753-3322(02)00253-6
 
"Human beings evolved on a diet in which the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 EFA was about 1, whereas in the Western diets, the ratio is 15/1 to 16.7/1. Such evidence comes from studies on the evolutionary aspects of diet, modern day hunter-gatherers, and traditional diets. Agribusiness and modern agriculture have led to decreases in omega-3 fatty acids and increases in omega-6 fatty acids. Such practices have led to excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids, upsetting the balance that was characteristic during evolution when our genes were programmed to respond to diet and other aspects of the environment.[/size]"
 
 
A.P. Simopoulos, Evolutionary aspects of diet, the omega-6/omega-3 ratio and genetic variation: nutritional implications for chronic diseases, Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy, Volume 60, Issue 9, November 2006, Pages 502-507, ISSN 0753-3322, http://dx.doi.org/10...ha.2006.07.080.
 
"Anthropological and epidemiological studies and studies at the molecular level indicate that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of ~1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1 to 16.7/1. A high omega-6/omega-3 ratio, as is found in today's Western diets, promotes the pathogenesis of many diseases, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, osteoporosis, and inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, whereas increased levels of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) (a lower omega-6/omega-3 ratio), exert suppressive effects."[/size]
 


Gian Luigi Russo, Dietary n-6 and n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids: From biochemistry to clinical implications in cardiovascular prevention, Biochemical Pharmacology, Volume 77, Issue 6, 15 March 2009, Pages 937-946, ISSN 0006-2952, http://dx.doi.org/10...cp.2008.10.020.
 
"Several authors tended to explain the EFA/PUFA effects in terms of a balance between total n − 6 and n − 3 FAs, rather than the absolute amount of each single molecule. The importance of the [/size]n − 6/[/size]n − 3 ratio has been evoked not only in the pathogenesis of cardiovascular diseases, but also in cancer, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. In the most simplistic interpretation, a very high n − 6/n − 3 ratio is considered detrimental for human health, while a value as much as possibly close to 1 is considered protective against degenerative pathologies"
 
 
Jing X. Kang, The Importance of Omega–6/Omega–3 Fatty Acid Ratio in Cell Function, The Gene Transfer of Omega–3 Fatty Acid Desaturase. Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass., USA

"...the ratio of omega–6 to omega–3 essential fatty acids in today’s Western diets is around 15–20:1, indicating that modern diets are deficient in omega–3 fatty acids but too high in omega–6 fatty acids compared with the diet on which humans evolved and their genetic patterns were established (omega–6/omega–3 was 1:1)"

 

 

It was the advent of industrialization that turned everything on its head and made previously rare foods (oils, sugars, soft flours) so commonplace and cheap that they replaced the wild whole foods mankind ate and which our bodies need to stay healthy...and less inflammed.

 

Agreed!

 

 

I honestly believe you'd have to add up all foods eaten in a week to determine true omega ratios...not just in one food or one meal...and then the effect would be more calculable.  I know for me that I can eat some higher omega 6 foods (oatmeal, some soy milk in my tea, a small helping of pasta once a week, etc.) because all the other foods I eat are lower on omega 6 and I eat some rather high omega 3 foods such as salmon (often), chia seeds (daily) and tons of fresh vegetables that probably balance things out.  If I find myself eating bread everyday or foods swimming in solven-based cheap seed oils (canola, safflower, etc.) when I am traveling then I can count on a flare-up but it is very mild because I return to eating my diet as soon as I can. 

 

This is not how digestion works. When you consume one meal, the Omega-6 and Omega-3 fatty acids don't wait around for the rest of the week to be metabolized. They are metabolized right after you eat the meal. The Omega-6 and Omega-3 fatty acids are first converted by the same enzyme delta-6-desaturase, then by elongase 5, then delta-5-desaturase, then elongase 2 acts on them twice, and then delta-6-desaturase, and then finally they enter beta-oxidation. So Omega-6 and Omega-3 will compete for the same exact set of enzymes right after consumption and if there is an imbalance then one omega fatty acid will outcompete the other for metabolism. If someone eats an Omega-6 enriched meal, then shortly afterwards their body will preferentially convert the the Omega-6 fatty acids into a number of inflammatory molecules like arachidonic acid.


Edited by dylonspythotfyre, 15 January 2014 - 01:50 AM.


#77 cvd

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 11:51 AM

Yes - I have read studies that propose the evolutionary ratio was 1:1 --- which is derived from observing a couple of modern day traditional hunter-gatherer societies (...there aren't many left..).  I read some other studies and will try to find them again that propose the ratio was possibly closer to the traditional Japanese ratio of 4:1 (omega 6 to 3) which according to other studies is still an ideal to strive for.  And then there are recent discoveries showing prehistoric man was grinding flours, etc. and that would possibly point more to the 4:1 ratio.  Perhaps it depended on where people lived...even in prehistoric times.  What we know for sure is that starting hundreds of thousands of years ago man was eating grains and that would have changed the ratio.  Of course the whole paleo argument is that we should return to eating like caveman (no grains, etc.) to achieve a more 1:1 ratio...but as I shared above, there may have been other groups of cavemen who ate ground up grains and roots and were less of the hunters we imagine.  Perhaps they were still healthy because they lived near water and fished and the fish kept them healthy. 

 

Now the real question is should we try for the 1:1 ratio?  I don't know if it's really possible to achieve since we don't actually live that way and our sources of food can't always be relied on.  I prefer to concentrate on eating the way people do who don't get acne...that is my focus.  And not eating oils goes a very long way in lowering omega 6.  My body feels better eating some grains eventhough they have omega 6.  And although there are some acne-free societies that don't eat grains, others do but predominately in whole form rather than flours.  I think man is very adaptable...to a point.  And what it comes down to is experimenting to find what your individual tipping point is. 



#78 alternativista

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:57 PM

Yes - I have read studies that propose the evolutionary ratio was 1:1 --- which is derived from observing a couple of modern day traditional hunter-gatherer societies (...there aren't many left..).  I read some other studies and will try to find them again that propose the ratio was possibly closer to the traditional Japanese ratio of 4:1 (omega 6 to 3) which according to other studies is still an ideal to strive for.  And then there are recent discoveries showing prehistoric man was grinding flours, etc. and that would possibly point more to the 4:1 ratio.

 

And eating nuts and seeds.  And animals that consume seeds & other plants high in omega 6.  I really don't think that the 1:1 ratio is possible for most people on the planet. Now or ever.   Not once they left the coasts.  The ratio in wild ruminants is more like 2:1 or worse.

 

There's evidence of bands moving around the Texas gulf coast in coincidence with the pecan harvest. Obviously these pecans were an important part of their diet. And this is an area in which food would always be plentiful but especially in the winter months that would make life hard elsewhere. It's a funnel for migrating birds and nesting area for tons of more northern birds.



#79 youknow1

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:00 PM



#80 dylonspythotfyre

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

Perhaps it depended on where people lived...even in prehistoric times.  What we know for sure is that starting hundreds of thousands of years ago man was eating grains and that would have changed the ratio. 

 

Absolutely I would agree with this. Without access to fish, I do not think a 1 to 1 ratio is possible.

 

 

Of course the whole paleo argument is that we should return to eating like caveman (no grains, etc.) to achieve a more 1:1 ratio

 

This is why I do not understand the Paleo diet. They often talk about being conscientious of Omegas, but then they allow you to eat all the meat and eggs and often do not regard where it came from. They say you can eat plenty of seeds and nuts and they allow avocados and plenty of olive oil. But then they say only eat a little bit of fruit. It does not makes sense to me.

 

First of all, avocado, eggs, nuts, olive oil, and meats alike are packed with Omega-6 and have scant amounts of Omega-3's. Second, what hypothetical caveman had access to all the meat and eggs they wanted? And when they did eat meat, they weren't buying grain-fed cattle, they were killing wild animals. The difference between grain and grass-fed is tremendous and often lost on many Paleo dieters.

 

 

Now the real question is should we try for the 1:1 ratio?  I don't know if it's really possible to achieve since we don't actually live that way and our sources of food can't always be relied on.

 

My hypothesis is that acne is a dietary issue. It is a working hypothesis and it still has some unknowns that need to be explained (like why do I eat crappy sometimes and not breakout).  I have been experimenting with various diets in the last several months, and in the interest of testing my hypothesis I should really try for a 1:1 ratio. 

 

A baked potato, a 1/2 fillet of atlantic wild caught salmon cooked in an ounce of coconut oil which is then poured on the baked potato, and a dry kale/tomato salad comes out to a ratio of 1:5 Omega-6:Omega-3. So that meal alone has 5 times more Omega-3's than Omega-6. So to answer your question I think that a 1:1 ratio really is easily possible as long as you have a good supply of wild-caught fish.


Edited by dylonspythotfyre, 16 January 2014 - 02:46 PM.





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