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Truth Revealed On Laser For Acne Scars**must Read***

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#21 tricia

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:49 AM

I am really pale skinned. From talking to another nurse I think this doctor tried everything he knew to help another girl with scarring and none of it worked, so it turned him off of treating acne scars. He doesn't really need the money anymore because he is very popular in the area, so he basically didn't try to sell me on it. He is too expensive anyway, I wouldn't mind a spot treatment, but he was charging the same price for a spot treatment as the whole face. I haven't ever heard of the fractora before but will research it, thanks

I have done the single needling from owndoc.com along with the suction device broke on me after a short period of time because it was made so cheaply- don't recommend it.  The single needles were so small they didn't do much. I did buy a much bigger needle to do the horizontal needling and that did work better, but it is true when you get to the 18 gauge needles there is more risk of creating a scar with the needle insertion. I didn't screw myself up because I was working on a fleshy part of the cheek that had thicker scar tissue. I wouldn't do closer to the eyes or anywhere where skin is thinner with bigger needles. I say it helped more, but still hasn't cured my problem. I do think TCA peels can help, but you can't go too high a percentage or will make worse. Everyone's scars are different and will respond to different things. It is definitely worth it to try needling and see where it takes you. Lasers, on the other hand, which has been said, has a higher risk to just try. The doctor who advised me against it had a fractional erbium laser.

 

Since you're one of the more reasonable people in the thread......

 

I assume if your doctor advised against laser you have a darker/asian skin tone? If you want to try something more aggressive but still fairly low risk you can look into something like fractora.

 



#22 no_hope

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:32 PM

I have done the single needling from owndoc.com along with the suction device broke on me after a short period of time because it was made so cheaply- don't recommend it.  The single needles were so small they didn't do much. I did buy a much bigger needle to do the horizontal needling and that did work better, but it is true when you get to the 18 gauge needles there is more risk of creating a scar with the needle insertion. I didn't screw myself up because I was working on a fleshy part of the cheek that had thicker scar tissue. I wouldn't do closer to the eyes or anywhere where skin is thinner with bigger needles. I say it helped more, but still hasn't cured my problem. I do think TCA peels can help, but you can't go too high a percentage or will make worse. Everyone's scars are different and will respond to different things. It is definitely worth it to try needling and see where it takes you. Lasers, on the other hand, which has been said, has a higher risk to just try. The doctor who advised me against it had a fractional erbium laser.

 

Since you're one of the more reasonable people in the thread......

 

I assume if your doctor advised against laser you have a darker/asian skin tone? If you want to try something more aggressive but still fairly low risk you can look into something like fractora.

 

fractora seems like a loud of BS. the asian dude barley has a difference in before and after and when they was using the machine it looks like the needles didnt even penetrate. i cant say for sure but it doenst seem promising .



#23 scarfacebob

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:41 PM

i was doing some research on realself and i found this to be shocking coming from a Derm.

 

The real story on acne scars

Here's the deal with acne scars: no laser is really going to do all that much for them. Sorry, but acne scars are very difficult to treat and you are never going to go back to where you want with any laser alone. Even with the best of treatments, you are going to have about 50% improvement and that is with fillers such as restylane and perlane, which will be doing the heavy lifting.

Prior to having Fraxel, Cool Touch, Fraxel Re:pair and every other laser that has promised to improve acne scars but didn't, I performed full face CO2 lasers on patients with acne scars. The results were not all that impressive, despite the fact that patients went through 2 weeks of sheer torture during the recovery phase. That, on top of the price in the $4000 range that made it *seem* like something ought to have happened. Due to this fact, I stopped doing the older, CO2 laser and haven't missed it one bit.

Now, unfortunately, we have a whole new generation of doctors and quasi cosmetic surgeons (family practitioners, nurse practitioners, Ob Gyns, etc) who have now purchased these lasers for their medispas and are trying to generate some cash, along with laser companies that are desperate to sell their machines. So, the old concept of treating acne scars with a laser such as Fraxel is once again being trotted out and desperate patients are being duped once more.

The truth is that it does precious little for acne scars and typically not enough to make someone spend the money and recovery time to do the treatment. What I tell patients is that if the money is something that you care about and it is anywhere near a stretch to do the procedure, you don't want to do it for acne scars. Wrinkles are a whole different situation because it does work for these. Acne scars not so much. And the recovery time, if the scars are done correctly with it, is going to be about a week or two along with major downtime and oozing. So, think twice before doing this procedure, despite what the laser companies and many doctors are telling you!                                                    

 

Omaha Dermatologist

 

 

 

 

I had the Mixto fractional CO2 laser for acne scaring about 1.5 years ago.  My findings are in agreement with the above conclusions on lasers.

My sun damaged facial skin was much improved and some lines much reduced; acne scaring only slight improvement....yes, must do several to obtain the maximum benefit.  No thank you!

 

The laser treatment was done at maximum output and my face was swollen for several days and blister red.  Took about two weeks to resolve to normal.


Edited by scarfacebob, 28 June 2013 - 03:44 PM.


#24 no_hope

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:53 PM

 

i was doing some research on realself and i found this to be shocking coming from a Derm.

 

The real story on acne scars

Here's the deal with acne scars: no laser is really going to do all that much for them. Sorry, but acne scars are very difficult to treat and you are never going to go back to where you want with any laser alone. Even with the best of treatments, you are going to have about 50% improvement and that is with fillers such as restylane and perlane, which will be doing the heavy lifting.

Prior to having Fraxel, Cool Touch, Fraxel Re:pair and every other laser that has promised to improve acne scars but didn't, I performed full face CO2 lasers on patients with acne scars. The results were not all that impressive, despite the fact that patients went through 2 weeks of sheer torture during the recovery phase. That, on top of the price in the $4000 range that made it *seem* like something ought to have happened. Due to this fact, I stopped doing the older, CO2 laser and haven't missed it one bit.

Now, unfortunately, we have a whole new generation of doctors and quasi cosmetic surgeons (family practitioners, nurse practitioners, Ob Gyns, etc) who have now purchased these lasers for their medispas and are trying to generate some cash, along with laser companies that are desperate to sell their machines. So, the old concept of treating acne scars with a laser such as Fraxel is once again being trotted out and desperate patients are being duped once more.

The truth is that it does precious little for acne scars and typically not enough to make someone spend the money and recovery time to do the treatment. What I tell patients is that if the money is something that you care about and it is anywhere near a stretch to do the procedure, you don't want to do it for acne scars. Wrinkles are a whole different situation because it does work for these. Acne scars not so much. And the recovery time, if the scars are done correctly with it, is going to be about a week or two along with major downtime and oozing. So, think twice before doing this procedure, despite what the laser companies and many doctors are telling you!                                                    

 

Omaha Dermatologist

 

 

 

 

I had the Mixto fractional CO2 laser for acne scaring about 1.5 years ago.  My findings are in agreement with the above conclusions on lasers.

My sun damaged facial skin was much improved and some lines much reduced; acne scaring only slight improvement....yes, must do several to obtain the maximum benefit.  No thank you!

 

The laser treatment was done at maximum output and my face was swollen for several days and blister red.  Took about two weeks to resolve to normal.

thanks for sharing. the thing is that real acne scars are deep and the scar tissue is in the dermis. lasers dont go far enough to reach the scar tissue unless they are really superficial scars like rolling. lasers just hit the epidermis which is not gonna do anything for deep acne scars.

 

Although i do belive laser can be a effective finishing touch after going thru more invasive treatments like excision and subcision



#25 scarfacebob

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:13 PM

I have rolling scars from over 40 years ago and subcision was not needed or recommended for my situation according to the Dr.



#26 acnescar123

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:30 PM

the asian dude barley has a difference in before and after and when they was using the machine it looks like the needles didnt even penetrate. i cant say for sure but it doenst seem promising .


If you say so.....

 

http://www.acne.org/...eedling-device/

 

fractora-7.jpg



I had the Mixto fractional CO2 laser for acne scaring about 1.5 years ago.  My findings are in agreement with the above conclusions on lasers.

My sun damaged facial skin was much improved and some lines much reduced; acne scaring only slight improvement....yes, must do several to obtain the maximum benefit.  No thank you!

 

The laser treatment was done at maximum output and my face was swollen for several days and blister red.  Took about two weeks to resolve to normal.

 

If you got some improvement (I assume somewhere around 15-20%?) and didn't have any side effects, any particular reason you didn't want to do multiple sessions to get decent improvement?


Edited by acnescar123, 28 June 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#27 scarfacebob

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:27 PM


the asian dude barley has a difference in before and after and when they was using the machine it looks like the needles didnt even penetrate. i cant say for sure but it doenst seem promising .


If you say so.....
 
http://www.acne.org/...eedling-device/
 
fractora-7.jpg

>I had the Mixto fractional CO2 laser for acne scaring about 1.5 years ago.  My findings are in agreement with the above conclusions on lasers.
My sun damaged facial skin was much improved and some lines much reduced; acne scaring only slight improvement....yes, must do several to obtain the maximum benefit.  No thank you!
 
The laser treatment was done at maximum output and my face was swollen for several days and blister red.  Took about two weeks to resolve to normal.

 
If you got some improvement (I assume somewhere around 15-20%?) and didn't have any side effects, any particular reason you didn't want to do multiple sessions to get decent improvement?

 

 

 

Frankly, at $2700 initial treatment and $1700 per each thereafter, the improvement, if any, was way too little to justify the added expense.  The treatment did help my sun damaged facial skin and some lines, but acne scars were minor improvement.   No thanks


Edited by scarfacebob, 28 June 2013 - 05:38 PM.


#28 Binga

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:21 PM

Lasers burns the whole face and is quite harsh on the skin. You need to be clear for years if you want to embark on laser treatments cos if you breakout again you might end up with additional scarring. Needling has less side effects though it takes lot of time and doesn.t work on all types of scars.

#29 aquasea

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

the asian dude barley has a difference in before and after and when they was using the machine it looks like the needles didnt even penetrate. i cant say for sure but it doenst seem promising .


If you say so.....

 

http://www.acne.org/...eedling-device/

 

fractora-7.jpg



>>>>>>>>I had the Mixto fractional CO2 laser for acne scaring about 1.5 years ago.  My findings are in agreement with the above conclusions on lasers.

My sun damaged facial skin was much improved and some lines much reduced; acne scaring only slight improvement....yes, must do several to obtain the maximum benefit.  No thank you!

 

The laser treatment was done at maximum output and my face was swollen for several days and blister red.  Took about two weeks to resolve to normal.

 

If you got some improvement (I assume somewhere around 15-20%?) and didn't have any side effects, any particular reason you didn't want to do multiple sessions to get decent improvement?

 


This scarring would be so EASY to rectify...it would take between 1.5 to 2 years max to achieve smooth skin...

All he would need to do is:

A) Single needle his scars intensively every 4 days for 2 weeks and then stop for two weeks...repeat this every month until clear....he would also need to apply fresh lemon juice for vitamin c straight after the needling to induce collagen production (and possibly every day or every second day too)....he could try the microneedle from owndoc.com (to prick the skin, inducing a few tiny drops of blood)...also, he could use a a thicker pin, like a sewing needle size, not to prick the skin, but to tap it without puncturing the skin to induce the skin's natural injury healing response....  he could do this at least 3 or 4 times per week....

B) Use retin a twice a week...

D) Use beta glucan liquid at least 3 times per week (or daily if the product is pure beta glucan with no additives)

E) Once a week, do 30 minute massages with rosehip oil after a full facial skin rolling session using a shortish 0.25mm roller [see clearskincare.com.au] ...this could be followed with an application of retin a/ fresh lemon juice/ beta glucan liquid...

F) Apply 1 or 2 drops of copper peptides on skin once every week post full skin rolling session

G) Apply a quality dermatological product with B3 niacinamide once or twice a week...

H) Get a professional skin rolling session once a year.

I) Apply a nutrient dense supergreen facial mask 4 times per week for an hour (manuka honey [factor 10 or above] + fresh lemon juice + Synergy Natural's supergreen powder containing chlorella/ spirulina/ wheat grass/ barley grass)

J) Eat/ drink a nutrient dense / super healthy/ organic/ unprocessed/ natural wholefood/ mostly raw vegan diet with lots of supefoods like: berries, kale, quinoa, lentils, chickpeas, peas, beans, sprouted foods like alfalfa/ mung beans etc, using lots of spices and herbs like turmeric/ cayenne pepper/ ginger/ lemon grass/ thyme etc, fresh veg/ fruit juices with supergreen powder (chlorella/ spirulina/ wheat grass/ barley grass), bok choy, spinach salad greens, tomatoes, black olives, brown/ wild rice, beetroot, carrot, vegan flat breads/ wraps, organic non GMO rice, rice crackers, sea vegetables, hummus, fresh lemon juice, garlic, red onions, chia seeds, flaxseed oil, flaxseed mill, LSA, dandelion greens, dandelion tisane, cilantro, basil, mint, broccoli, traditional grains like amaranth/ buckwheat etc, virgin olive oil, gluten free muesli, almond milk, natural dried fruit without sulphites, flat parsley, fresh pineapple, strawberries, passionfruit, kiwifruit, pomegranate, baked potatoes/ pumpkin/ sweet potato, mixed nuts, mandarins, mixed seeds especially pumpkin/ sesame/ sunflower, unhulled tahini, organic virgin cold pressed coconut oil, coconut water, spring water, dark vegan chocolate (85%),avocado, raw cacao, fermented foods like tempeh/ miso/ sauerkraut, cabbage/ red cabbage, apples, banana, watermelon, other melons, shitake mushrooms, oats, other mushrooms etc

K) Exercise daily for 10 -30 minutes ( to induce human growth hormones/ factors)

L) Get daily sunlight for 10 -30 minutes daily for vitamin D

M) Think positive/ say affirmations/ meditate/ do yoga/ practice faith & hope & perseverance....

N) Get out into pristine nature often/ hike/ swim at clean beach etc

O) Surround himself ONLY with encouraging, supportive family & friends

P) Take a quality multivitamin/ mineral daily

Q) Ensure his space is tidy, clean, organized and aesthetically pleasing to his senses...

R) Have a sauna every 2 or 4 weeks (to help detox)

S) Use benoite clay as a mask or internal drink to detox once a month...

T) Take a quality non-dairy probiotic daily....(and possibly a quality fiber supplement)

U) Avoid microwaves, tap water, sodas, coffee, sports drinks, teas, gluten, processed foods, junk foods, dairy, meats, GMO, MSG, aspartame, fast foods, fried foods, additives, fluoride toothpaste & toxic mouthwash etc

W) Avoid big pharma toxic medicine  & vaccines!

X) Learn about natural health remedies/ cleaning and using them: i.e. supernaturalsilver.com ; tea tree oil; organic wild oil of oregano, beta glucan, glutathione... etc

Y) Continue researching new, natural health cures & wellness modalities; Create the life he desires & love it! smile.png

Z) Not sure, but possibly use LED light therapy....maybe once every two weeks....and use natural non toxic cleansers/ serum/ shampoos/ deodorant/ facial mists etc i.e. see The Body Deli, Jess Organics, Sukin & possibly Bion Research etc

Cheers smile.png

PS For extra help for stubborn scars, he could also try vacuum therapy/ suctioning/ cupping at home or by a professional....


Edited by aquasea, 29 June 2013 - 01:59 AM.


#30 scarfacebob

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:45 PM

Just to be clear the facial photos are NOT of me.

I am 66 years old...have not had any acne fo45 years.

;)

#31 willg

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:25 PM

This scarring would be so EASY to rectify...it would take between 1.5 to 2 years max to achieve smooth skin...

 

Anything with more than 2 steps that takes more than a few months isn't "easy" to me! I guess I'm lazy lol.gif



#32 Miko Yan

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:27 PM

AFR = co2, NAFR = erbium"

 

So ~40% improvement - which in my opinion is reasonable.

 

There is a problem on how exactly they measure the amount of improvement:

 

"The only objective tool is the software based on an optical profiling system (Primos Imaging; GFM; Tetlow, Germany), which allows high-resolution topographical imaging of cutaneous scars and calculation of quantitative volumetric and depth changes in atrophic scar volumes before and after treatment. This has been used only in two studies and one of them did not study acne scars All the other studies use either a patient or observer-dependent quartile scoring which is not an accurate indicator of acne scars improvement. The use of photography is also meaningless as it is again assessed by a quartile or self-devised scoring pattern by an investigator wherein the assessment of the depth of the scar is impossible."

 

This is the study that covered acne scars: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19226575

 

But I couldn't find the topographical tool mentioned anywhere (it says: "according to study investigator quartile improvement scoring").

 

Now just before the paragraph i quoted before it is written:

 

"The third study that subclassified the scar types used a quartile scale and reported patient assessment which is always superior to the physician assessment and thus has less validity."

 

That third study is the table you posted in your topic: http://www.acne.org/...-study-results/


Edited by Miko Yan, 28 June 2013 - 09:42 PM.


#33 acnescar123

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:18 PM

AFR = co2, NAFR = erbium"

 

So ~40% improvement - which in my opinion is reasonable.

 

There is a problem on how exactly they measure the amount of improvement:

 

"The only objective tool is the software based on an optical profiling system (Primos Imaging; GFM; Tetlow, Germany), which allows high-resolution topographical imaging of cutaneous scars and calculation of quantitative volumetric and depth changes in atrophic scar volumes before and after treatment. This has been used only in two studies and one of them did not study acne scars All the other studies use either a patient or observer-dependent quartile scoring which is not an accurate indicator of acne scars improvement. The use of photography is also meaningless as it is again assessed by a quartile or self-devised scoring pattern by an investigator wherein the assessment of the depth of the scar is impossible."

 

This is the study that covered acne scars: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19226575

 

But I couldn't find the topographical tool mentioned anywhere (it says: "according to study investigator quartile improvement scoring").

 

Now just before the paragraph i quoted before it is written:

 

"The third study that subclassified the scar types used a quartile scale and reported patient assessment which is always superior to the physician assessment and thus has less validity."

 

That third study is the table you posted in your topic: http://www.acne.org/...-study-results/

True Miko Yan. But at the same time - would you rather know what % the patient felt they improvement of that a machine said the scar is now 0.2mm instead of 0.1mm? Personally I would rather know what the patients think their improvement is. I wish there was more studies on it - but just have to go with what we can see. I don't think its unreasonable to expect ~40% improvement after a few sessions - but it works different for everyone and does have risks.

 

I assume if in the article they wrote that the used Primos in that study then it's probably just not listed in the summary.

 

Compare this to there being only one study done about the dermaroller - and it was a 500 patient study with various # of treatments for various conditions. So we have much more info on lasers than we do dermarolling.

 

ps. thanks for a real reply though, instead of telling me to go put egg whites on my face and avoid using microwaves.


Edited by acnescar123, 28 June 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#34 aquasea

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:38 AM

I have done the single needling from owndoc.com along with the suction device broke on me after a short period of time because it was made so cheaply- don't recommend it.  The single needles were so small they didn't do much. I did buy a much bigger needle to do the horizontal needling and that did work better, but it is true when you get to the 18 gauge needles there is more risk of creating a scar with the needle insertion. I didn't screw myself up because I was working on a fleshy part of the cheek that had thicker scar tissue. I wouldn't do closer to the eyes or anywhere where skin is thinner with bigger needles. I say it helped more, but still hasn't cured my problem. I do think TCA peels can help, but you can't go too high a percentage or will make worse. Everyone's scars are different and will respond to different things. It is definitely worth it to try needling and see where it takes you. Lasers, on the other hand, which has been said, has a higher risk to just try. The doctor who advised me against it had a fractional erbium laser.


Yes, I've heard this does happen e.g. Owndoc.com mentioned something about their pump needing regular maintenance as parts become unfixed...however, Tricia, have you considered professional cupping/ vacuum therapy?...a lot of Chinese Medicine/ Holistic practitioners offer this service...it's akin to very deep tissue massage...you could try it with intensive single needle therapy and fresh lemon juice (or potent vitamin c serum)....you could also try 30 min facial massages following a full skin rolling session (this helped my skin - I used a shortish roller 0.25mm)...also have you tried retin a and/ or a B3 niacinamide topical? These help remodel/ resurface your skin...

As for TCA, I found it far too strong (i.e. it made a scar on my skin...but I have since fixed it).....

And yes, I agree with you, everyone's scars are different & need different therapies...but I do sincerely believe that all scars can heal...and it's far easier than most people realize.... it just requires a holistic approach...(it took me a long time to discover this truth!)...

And good to hear your doctor wasn't a charlatan and told you not to get the laser....sounds like an ethical professional....did he suggest something else to you?


Edited by aquasea, 29 June 2013 - 02:50 AM.


#35 panos

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:28 AM

Hey aquasea,i want to grasp the chance to post here something from one really nice herbalist

that makes homemade herbs.He is called barefoot herbalist and says that the one that think and persuade themselves that vegetables

are human food they will or have lost the battles with worms/parasites.

 

I believe you should look into deworming because i see you plan for long term vegeterianism.I am not spreading fear.Just posting this for better understanding,.

Deworming is some bunch of herbs or other natural methods that clean your body from parasites/worms.

 

I try to be at least 50% fruitarian.



#36 aquasea

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

Hi Panos,

I'm not sure what you mean. I am a vegan for ethical reasons. I don't have acne anymore either. My scars are more than 90% healed. And I don't have any symptoms of worms/ parasites.

I think the correlation of eating vegetables and having worms/ parasites is bizarre. Could you please explain your theory?

Cheers :)



#37 panos

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:07 AM

Hi Panos,

I'm not sure what you mean. I am a vegan for ethical reasons. I don't have acne anymore either. My scars are more than 90% healed. And I don't have any symptoms of worms/ parasites.

I think the correlation of eating vegetables and having worms/ parasites is bizarre. Could you please explain your theory?

Cheers smile.png

 

You can ask your question to this guy here. 

He will answer you in detail if you ask for it.

http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=626

 

He is a homemade herbalist and doesnt scam .



#38 3lilpigs

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:21 AM

The linked page, are you referring to the person who says she has bacon bits in her poop when looking at it through a microscope?...I am hard pressed to find any helpful information in the posts on that link.

#39 panos

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:29 AM

The linked page, are you referring to the person who says she has bacon bits in her poop when looking at it through a microscope?...I am hard pressed to find any helpful information in the posts on that link.

 

No its the forum ''Ask barefoot herbalist''. Everybody ask him stuff about health.

He posts and the name MH. He says according to the great old doctors scarring is simply a result

of bad calcium/lime that forms the scar and the blood is unable to break this hard calcium.



#40 3lilpigs

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:32 AM

Lol, ok. Thank you for clearing that up for me. :)




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