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Had Interesting Chat With Doctor Re Needling


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#1 justmeuk

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:06 AM

To start i'll say that I've tried many different treatments for my scars and none have made any real difference.  I've also had four professional sessions of dermaroller which haven't made a difference. 

 

I've just had an intersting consulation with a doctor who told me that improve acne scarring with needling you need to dermaroll at home EVERY WEEK with a 1.5mm roller to make a difference and you will need to do it for at LEAST 9 months.  He said in doing this you should see a 50% improvement. 

 

He told me that the reason that i hadn't seen results with needling in past was becasue i only had a few sessions which were three months apart and you need to do this every week to see results.  I was under the impression that needling weekly was bad due to the skin being constantly inflamed but he assures me that this isn't the case and that it will do no harm.  Interestingly on researching this Dr Des Fernandes who is one of the inventors of the dermaroller also recommends dermarolling on a weekly basis.  Now my doctor had no financial incentive to recommend this to me, he didn't charge me for the consultation and he recommended that i buy the products online and do it myself rather to save money rather than have him do it.

 

By way of testing this theory out i'm going to buy some needles and try single needlng two scars every week for six weeks, then i'm going to leave it for a month let any inflammation die down and assess any results.

 

 



#2 Quirky Fox

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:03 AM

What?! No. Who the heck is this doctor and how did he get his license.

I have had 5 professional Dermaroller treatments spaced 7 weeks apart (1.5mm) and I have seen a 70% improvement in my scarring.

Have you ever had a treatment? Your skin is barely healed after one week. Roll again on raw skin? No freaking way.

I am getting so frustrated with all the misinformation and outright bullshit that "doctors" are selling.

Sorry for the rant, but this advice is by far the worst I have ever heard a doctor give. Stay clear of them!

#3 siodyne

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:11 AM

I know very little about dermarolling, but think its important to roll lightly or moderately as opposed to aggressively if you were to do it every week.



#4 Quirky Fox

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:26 AM

You wouldn't roll using a 1.5mm device every week. Maybe it'd be okay if you had a roller just for product penetration (0.5mm) but even then once a week is still traumatising to your skin.



#5 Frasier

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

This is so confusing. Some say that you should dermaroll with 0,5 mm 3 times a week, the 1 mm once a week and the 1,5 mm every 2 weeks. And then others say you should rest for 6 week between every treatment. So, who should I believe?



#6 Quirky Fox

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:00 AM

If you do your research and understand the science behind collagen/skin remodelling and the needling process then there's no grey area. I am safe in the knowledge that to treat scars you need at least 5 treatments of the 1.5mm done once every 6-8 weeks. 

 

If doing the research is too daunting or isn't your thing then believe the people that have had the treatments and are happy with them. 



#7 justmeuk

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

The thing is that i don't think anyone knows for sure as there is such a difference of opinion.  If it was that bad to do it on a weekly basis i don't know why doctors would be recommending it?  I've had dermaroller/dermapen treatments but i didn't see any results and i can't help but wonder if maybe it is because they were spaced out so far apart.  

 

That's why i'm going to try the individual needling, rather than risk my whole face i'm just going to concentrate on a couple of scars and do them weekly.  If i get good results from that i might progress to dermarolling my whole face but i'm definitely going to err on the side on caution until i know for sure.  


Edited by justmeuk, 20 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.


#8 michi31

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:33 PM

Here is an interesting overview of wound healing. When you should dermaroll again depends on what stage is ideal to create an additional wound. I would personally think it would be after full healing has taken place, as increasing stress factors increases the risk of scarring. There is a helpful timeline, which is dependent on the extent of the wound, and some paragraphs at the bottom talk about repair (possible scarring) vs. regeneration (not scarring). I know it's wiki, and not an "official" source, but it's a convenient starting place.

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Wound_healing

 

I would personally ask your doctor to explain this and why it is best to dermaroll at a certain stage of healing. If he can't answer it then I wouldn't trust him.


Edited by michi31, 20 May 2013 - 12:34 PM.


#9 Frasier

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:01 PM

If you do your research and understand the science behind collagen/skin remodelling and the needling process then there's no grey area. I am safe in the knowledge that to treat scars you need at least 5 treatments of the 1.5mm done once every 6-8 weeks. 

 

If doing the research is too daunting or isn't your thing then believe the people that have had the treatments and are happy with them. 

 

Since people on the internet claim that they got rid of their scars by doing derma rolling every week you should understand why some people, like me, are confused.
No reason to be cocky about your opinions. 



#10 accuracy101

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:42 PM

I've heard multiple doctors claim that dermarolling on a weekly basis is necessary for significant improvement. I use my 1.0 dermaroller once a week, fight me.



#11 Quirky Fox

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:29 AM

To the OP - I apologise for hijacking your thread here. This will be my last post.

 

 

I've heard multiple doctors claim that dermarolling on a weekly basis is necessary for significant improvement. I use my 1.0 dermaroller once a week, fight me.

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anybody. I'm trying to get people to do research, not just casually check the Internet or ask questions from peers (yes, I have dared to assume that this happens and no, I am not naming anyone in particular - this is a general statement). Use your 1.0mm roller weekly as you see fit. If you're seeing improvement who am I to say otherwise? Similarly with me, I would never roll weekly unless I decided to use a 0.5mm for product penetration. I've seen the results of what can be achieved from the original Dermaroller and the strict rules that go along with its use.

 

Some people are all for using home rollers and treating themselves. I am not. Both sides need to be voiced, I agree. There is nothing wrong with a debate on this! In the end we all want the same damn thing.

 

Nobody can change my opinion on that either. Each to their own.

 

If you do your research and understand the science behind collagen/skin remodelling and the needling process then there's no grey area. I am safe in the knowledge that to treat scars you need at least 5 treatments of the 1.5mm done once every 6-8 weeks. 

 

If doing the research is too daunting or isn't your thing then believe the people that have had the treatments and are happy with them. 

 

Since people on the internet claim that they got rid of their scars by doing derma rolling every week you should understand why some people, like me, are confused.
No reason to be cocky about your opinions. 

 

Call me cocky, I don't care. In fact it's a compliment. I'm allowed to be somewhat cocky because I am very proud of what I have achieved. I am a shy, modest mouse in every aspect of my life but this. I have worked hard, I researched for months before I chose to have my treatments. I didn't read the horror stories, I didn't read the opinions of people who have not had the treatment. I was interested in the facts and the study documents, the science and the history behind the treatment. I'm not apologising for coming across as being a know-it-all because I am passionate about this. I'm proud of myself for this. My esthetician loves treating me because I understand it all. I would love to do what she does; I would love to help people in the way that she has helped me. I am on your side here. If I'm proven to be wrong with the 1.5mm roll every week thing then so be it. But until then I will stick to my guns. Flame me for that all you will.

 

My only goal was to try to provide some insight and clarification from a person who has found a method that works. I am sorry if my over-the-top enthusiasm has caused anyone confusion and/or distress.

 

I think I'm done with these boards for a while. If anyone wants me I'll be in my room...


Edited by Quirky Fox, 21 May 2013 - 01:29 AM.


#12 justmeuk

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:20 AM

I've heard multiple doctors claim that dermarolling on a weekly basis is necessary for significant improvement. I use my 1.0 dermaroller once a week, fight me.

 

How long have you been doing this and have you seen results?



#13 Frasier

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:12 PM

No big deal, Quirky Fox, and you should be proud of yourself for the "job" that you've been doing to help yourself smile.png 

I just wanted to say that there are some pretty plausible people online that say that needling several times a week is a good thing. I have no clue what is the right thing, that's why I'm confused. I will start to derma roll this week by the way. rolleyes.gif

 

And please keep on giving advice to the rest of us here...it is very beneficial for all of us!


Edited by Frasier, 21 May 2013 - 02:14 PM.


#14 aquasea

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:46 AM

I use this brand to needle weekly by Clearskincare clinics:  http://www.clearskin...n-elastin-derma

The needle is 0.25mm with surgical stainless steel needles. As long as you don't use glycolic peels etc when you're needling weekly, you should be fine. However, I also use a very small baby safety pin (the size of a syringe - which I sterilize under piping hot water), to perform concentrated individual skin needling on scarring/ wrinkles (of course, if you can get your hands on a sterile syringe needle or lancet that would be better!!). And yes, It works, but it takes time and diligence, and you need to use other modalities too like good topicals, a healthy diet, exercise, multivitamins etc...and, so long as you are gentle with your skin and meticulous with hygiene, needling should really help your skin (just wash your needle under piping hot water for a minute or two, air dry, and then place in a clean, dry container in the fridge with your topicals to keep clean & fresh). You can also have 100% tea tree oil on hand if you need extra help with disinfecting an area. HOWEVER, YOU SHOULD NOT NEEDLE YOUR SKIN IF YOU HAVE ACTIVE ACNE. Only needle if your acne/ infection has completetly healed/ ceased. If your skin is fragile, you should not needle (until you've increased the density/ tencile strength of your skin). Your skin needs to be fairly robust for weekly needling. DO  NOT USE PEELS OR OTHER AGGRESSIVE SKIN TREATMENTS WHILE NEEDLING!!!

It is advised to use (just a drop or two of) copper peptides and retin A with needling (**IMPORTANT NOTE** - use only a very small amount of retin a - even weekly - and be VERY careful, this topical thins the top layer of skin and the needling can be too aggressive - if you feel your skin is too thinned by using retin a - stop needling and only resume when you have stopped using the retin a for 2 weeks or a month). So don't go overboard with the topicals (remember, less it more). Also, remember to give your skin a week/ month off where you don't use any topicals/ needling to let your skin heal & remodel. You could also get a professional derma rolling session by a reputable dermatologist once a year for a more deeper needling session if required. But most of all, RESEARCH NEEDLING THOROUGHLY SO YOU HAVE MANY DIFFERENT OPINIONS/ PROFESSIONAL ADVICE to base your informed decision.

Lastly, if still in doubt about how to perform needling safely, do not attempt anything until you are confident that you FULLY understand the risks involved with needling and have acquired excellent knowledge on how to perform a skin needling session safely. It is fairly simple, but you must RESEARCH to ensure your needling technique is correct so you don't drag the roller across your skin and mark it. Also, avoid places you don't need the dermaroller or have thin skin (i.e. nose and non-scarred skin). And keep a simple method of counting how many rolls you do and what direction so you don't go overboard i.e do an asterisk in a controlled, gentle fashion and repeat the same direction 3 or 5 times IN ONE DIRECTION (i.e. roll in one direction, then LIFT the roller off the skin & repeat the same direction - don't roll back & forth!) and then change; i.e. left to right 3 or 5 times; up then down 3 or 5 times ; diagonal one way 3 or 5 times, diagonal other way 3 or 5 times. Just be gentle in the beginning and see how you skin reacts to needling after a week. If it looks good and there are no complications, you can continue. But always reassess your skin's progress. It should help your skin and not harm it in any way. Otherwise, stop needling IMMEDIATELY!

Furthermore, don't be aggressive with needling. Needle VERY lightly in the beginning to gage how well your skin responds to it and how fast it heals (and adjust your treatment/ pressure accordingly). It's also helpful to view various youtube videos/ professional demonstration videos to help give you guidance. Once you are confident your skin is improving well after 2 or three months, then you can start adding more pressure. I noticed more improvement when little speckles of blood appeared after skin rolling. But please only use this method if your heals very well and is strong and you've been rolling for at leat 2 or 3 months. You should not hurt yourself while doing this treatment. At home skin needling should not hurt at all, just be a tad "uncomfortable" with the pricking sensation. If it hurts, your being too aggressive and could injure your skin. Take it slow and safe.

Note too what other experienced users like Quirky Fox state. Indeed, certain derma rollers can cause major problems in inexperienced hands, so stick with the well-researched "safe" size needling for personal use and leave the professional length for professionals!

Cheers smile.png


Edited by aquasea, 23 May 2013 - 09:22 AM.


#15 Frasier

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:24 AM

aquasea, you write that people should roll in a star pattern. Isn't that something that should be avoided? I also can't see the harm in rolling 3 times back and forth, without lifting the roller. I mean, you have already penetrated the exact location, with the same pressure, with the same needle. But hey, that's my opinion.



#16 john777

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:23 PM

Clearly, there are a lot of different techniques in dermarolling with various needle lengths, time between rolling, and a variety of topical applications. 

 

So, just to add more confusions to the mix... my aesthetician does dermarolling with a 1mm needle and does a salicylic acid/retin-a peel in the same session immediately after the rolling.  This is all done in a rather large dermatological clinic where there are probably 4-5 dermatologists treating all kinds of skin problems. So this is clearly not a rogue aesthetician. The dermarolling and peels are done in the "day spa" section of the clinic. I was told that the dermarolling allows the peel solutions to enter deeper into the skin and increases their effect about "1 step".  They basically use 3 peels.  Level 1: A light peel (salicylic acid);  Level 2: a medium peel (salicylic acid + retin-a); and 3 level: a strong peel (a stronger salicylic acid + retin-a).  So, with dermarolling, the level 2 peel is stepped up a notch and becomes effectively a level 3 peel. 

 

I was very skeptical of this approach at first and so we started very slow.  First a rolling session, then 2 weeks later a salicylic acid + retin-a peel (level 2) with NO dermarolling, then 2 weeks later a dermarolling with a light salicylic acid peel (level 1).  There have been no adverse reactions to any of these and my skin tolerated it all very well. So at 5 weeks from the 2nd rolling I will have a dermarolling and the salicylic acid/retin-a peel level 2 peel, which will effectively be a level 3 peel. 

 

I would never do any of this on my own initially and it has been a very interesting introduction into the murky world of scar treatment. If all goes well on the next dermarolling + level2 peel, then I will probably have  3 more identical sessions 1 month apart and take a break and evaluate. Topicals, such as Retin-a is recommended as much as your skin tolerates, but only after 5 days from rolling and peeling has finished.  For me that is every other day or 2 days on and one day off. TNS growth factor serum is also recommended, but used only after peeling finishes, then daily, or even twice daily if desired. Moisturizer and sunscreen is also required.

 

To me these peel appear to be very light.  The level 2 peel produced little more than "flaking" in most places and very thin peel in some places.  I did not even notice any peeling in the level 1 peel with the dermarolling. So, clearly, a "step up" seems to be in order if any scar healing is to occur.  My wife has commented that she has noticed some improvement.

 

Anyway, this is what they are doing in my clinic in northwest ohio.  One more method for the books.

 

 



#17 aquasea

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:42 PM

Hi Frasier,

I follow the recommendation from Clear Skincare Clinic http://www.clearskin...n-elastin-derma

How To Use: 

"In the morning or evening - Using Clearskincare Gel Cleanser [NB I DON'T USE THEIR CLEANSER, I USE A NEW DIRECTION CLEANSER CALLED GENTLE CLEANSING LOTION], thoroughly clean and dry your skin prior to using your skin roller.

Apply the roller gently over the area to be treated, using a star shaped pattern, roll each area 10 to 15 times, lifting the roller between passes to avoid rolling the same areas.  A simple method is to divide your face into 6 areas - left and right forehead, left and right nose/eye/cheek/temple and left and right lower cheek/mouth/chin areas.  Apply your serum and/or cream after rolling each area. 

Only roll around the eyes. The aim of the procedure is to create the maximum number of micropunctures per area of skin being rolled.  It should take you approximately 3 to 5 minutes to roll your whole face.  As you establish your routine you can increase the pressure applied and speed used.  Only ever use as much pressure as you feel comfortable applying.  You do not have to be too fastidious, remember what you miss tonight you will get tomorrow night.
 



How It Works:

These needles pierce your skin to create micro channels, stimulating your skin's natural wound healing response to produce collagen and elastin to naturally infill lines and wrinkles.  This process is called skin needling or collagen induction therapy (CIT).

These micro channels, created by the needles, also radically increase the absorption of Clearskincare creams and serums into your skin maximising their effectiveness and benefits."


Cheers smile.png





 




 


Edited by aquasea, 23 May 2013 - 08:53 PM.


#18 aquasea

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:34 PM

Hi John777,

If your treatment is working, then stick with it...just ensure you go slowly and YOU control the frequency of the visits and choose the strength of the peels. Because sometimes clinics are focused on your visits (i.e. payment) than your healing and thus can 'overdo' your skin and damage it. And I know from experince!! So, please go slow and safe and give your skin plenty of time to recover.

For example, my skin was looking great. I was using glycolic peels 35% strength and skin needlng with copper peptides in one session. I was doing this for 8 months without mishap. BUT then I started using retin A/ steiva 0.05% strength and disaster struck! The retin a made my skin texture look really good, but had thinned my skin: so the next time when I rolled and applied the glycolic acid 35% on my skin, it blisted, weeped and scabed and I had 2nd degree burns!!! I should have gone to a hospital, but I treated myself (I'm sceptical of mainstream medicine apart from surgical procedures). I applied evoo + manuka honey + tea tree oil + a little copper peptides (and did concentrated individual skin needling every 2 or 3 days). Then I found out about beta glucan liquid (which I got from New Diirections). It's given to burn victims at hospitals and plastic surgeons to use after dermabrasion/ surgery on their clients etc. It has a 20x growth factor. And within a month, my skin had grown back and my partial thickness skin burns have plumped back up with collagen (this took 2 months). The scars are light now. I can completely cover them with tinted concealer (and hyaluronic acid +  moisturizer by New Directions called Aloe Vera + Marine collagen...but note, this is only good for using when you go out, not overnight as it dehydrates your skin because of the vegetable glycerine...stick with natural olis instead to moisturize your skin) and my skin looks fine. The only consolation is that my forehead (ruined by years of using BP) looked much better after the "mishap" and I discovered B3, B5 and Beta glucan as topicals.

Essentially, what I'd like to highlight to you John777 is that peels have the potential to be very beneficial with needling, BUT there is a tipping point. Don't be aggressive with your treatment and don't push the boundaries too hard on achieving great skin the fast way. Because complications can occur and peels have the power to damage your skin. Use it safely and wisely (and stick with very low/ safe strengths i.e. start with 10% for glycolic and work your way up gradually over 6-12 months to 20% or 30% ONLY if you have robust and significantly scarred skin. However, if you're a novice, best to see a VERY reputable dermatologist/ plastic surgeon for peels to begin with and ensure they start at a safe low strength too). Ergo John 777, please ensure you steer the direction/ frequency of your treatments at the spa to minimize risks. Please research your treatments thoroughly and ensure your skin isn't thinned too much so it can take your treatments.

I offer this information to you and others in hope it enlightens you and informs you of the risks involved when using peels/ retin a/ and skin needling. I now will not use Retin A with peels & skin needling. I will stick with Retin A/ b5/ b3/ beta glucan/ copper peptides/ evoo/ tea tree oil etc and needling and only commence glycolic peels at least 3 or 4 months after I have stopped using Retin A/ Steiva A.

~ Peace ~


Edited by aquasea, 23 May 2013 - 11:09 PM.


#19 john777

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:44 AM

Aquasea,

 

WoW! Thank  you for sharing your experience, as this is surely to put more perspective into the choices we make on dermarolling, peels and retin-a.  As a result of your warning to be cautious, I will be extra careful. 

 

I must admit that I do not know a lot about the peels.  That is why initially  I wanted to have the salcylic acid + Retin-a peel apart from dermarolling so I could see the effects before I did them jointly.  One small step at a time, verifying each change and effects carefully. And that is also why I am having an aesthetician do this in the clinic, because I do not feel comfortable doing peels myself.  And I don't think I ever will, because not only is knowledge of the procedure and the chemicals critical, but so is the source of the chemicals. I feel much better allowing physicians make these type of decisions.  I do think I will eventually venture into doing the dermarolling myself, perhaps in 6 months.

 

I also must admit that I know little about the thinning of the epidermis by retin-a. I was thinking that retin-a increased the speed of cell divisions in the skin, and therefore, the result was a thicker and healthier skin.



#20 Frasier

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 07:08 PM

Thanks for the info, aquasea! How did BP ruin your skin? And what is the difference between BP and Retin-A?

Kind Regards,
Frasier