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The Ignorance On This Website Upsets Me


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#41 tracy521

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:45 PM

i too for many many years believed my acne was related to my diet. i have tried cutting out everything and guess what i still had acne at 35 years old. the last 16 years of not eating this or not eating that has given me a paranoia about food in the sense that i cant go out and eat pizza or have a piece of cake or ice cream for fear that my acne will get really bad. in reality i know its all hormones for me because my skin always breaks out right before my period no matter what i did. so now i am on spironolactone and am finishing off a course of keflex as well as i use benzaclin daily and that has done more for me than changing up my diet ever did. i am 5'5" and used to weight around 132 but i now weigh 116 because i still cant let myself eat dairy or gluten or even eggs for that matter as well as sugar. i kept blaming myself for something that i have no control over and now i know that the only thing i can do is just try to eat healthy and not stress too much about food as well as to take good care of myself by working out and getting enough sleep. i do agree diet can help some people but its definitley not the be all and end all of acne. if it was i would have the best skin thats for sure!


Edited by tracy521, 25 March 2013 - 12:47 PM.


#42 foreverbold

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:22 PM

I'm beginning to see that many people seem to be mistaking a genetic cause for a genetic trigger. What I mean by this is that many assume acne to be a purely genetic condition they can do nothing about except slather on benzoyl peroxide or slay their stem cells with accutane. People observe that others can do whatever they want to their bodies, and suffer no consequences (at least in terms of acne). They conclude that genes must be the sole cause.

 

It is likely that genes are involved. It is not likely that they are the sole cause (though it is possible, just like most things are when it comes to genes). There is a reason for the consideration of acne as a disease of affluence, and there is a reason that it does not appear in many cultural groups at all. Whereas the incidence of acne in America nears 100% in adolescence, it nears or is equal to 0% in numerous hunter-gatherer tribes.

 

The ubiquity of acne across cultures that adopt similar lifestyles points to its origin not as an unfortunate mutation that afflicts only a few ethnic groups, but as a beneficial mutation that potentially increased social survival rate, likely occurring before emigration from Africa. One might say that this is contrary to logic. I might say again that acne should not be viewed as a disease, but as a symptom.

 

Smallpox, for example. Red spots on the body are not directly caused by infection. Red spots are caused by your body in order to warn others to stay away. This is a similar trait shared by many diseases. It makes sense that acne should be more sever shortly before or during menstruation. Why does PMS exist? It makes sense that, if you have some form of dysbiosis, you would have acne. You wouldn't want to spread that to the rest of your tribe, and neither perhaps (depending on severity) are you fit to have intimate social interactions that have further consequences, such as childbearing.

 

Yes, there is a genetic trigger. There is a genetic reason for everything we observe about the human body, whether it be by genetic regulation or by genetic change. But that is a far cry from a direct genetic cause. It might even be likely that the entire population shares the 'acne' gene, but the ones who eat garbage and have flawless skin have a mutated protein that is upregulated in response to sebaceous androgen binding that inhibits an inflammatory secondary response. Many things could change. But what we can understand should be based on observation, and reasonable extrapolation.

 

 

I think most of us would rather opt for the hollistic route as opposed to slathering on chemicals that burn our skin or intaking Isotretinoin and dealing with the harsh side effects  - the problem is that hollistics don't always work for treating aggressive acne unfortunately. Aggressive disorders require aggressive treatment. What I'm saying is it's not as simple "as an apple a day" ... otherwise Acne.org wouldn't exist.

 

I understand your reasoning behind your belief that acne is an inflammatory response to some other problem in the body, but this isn't always the case. Very rarely it can be, but not for me and most of the people here. Sometimes it's idiopathic without a trigger.


Edited by foreverbold, 25 March 2013 - 03:38 PM.

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#43 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:24 PM

As far as tribes that don't have acne, etc. It could very much be that they are free of the stress of Western lifestyle versus the Western diet (or both).


Current Skin-Care Regimen (A work in progress):

 

Morning:

Gentle wash with DKR cleanser

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Skin 79 Korean BB Cream (excellent stuff)

 

Evening:

Gentle Wash with DKR Cleanser

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DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil

 


#44 foreverbold

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

I'm beginning to see that many people seem to be mistaking a genetic cause for a genetic trigger. What I mean by this is that many assume acne to be a purely genetic condition they can do nothing about except slather on benzoyl peroxide or slay their stem cells with accutane. People observe that others can do whatever they want to their bodies, and suffer no consequences (at least in terms of acne). They conclude that genes must be the sole cause.

 

It is likely that genes are involved. It is not likely that they are the sole cause (though it is possible, just like most things are when it comes to genes). There is a reason for the consideration of acne as a disease of affluence, and there is a reason that it does not appear in many cultural groups at all. Whereas the incidence of acne in America nears 100% in adolescence, it nears or is equal to 0% in numerous hunter-gatherer tribes.

 

The ubiquity of acne across cultures that adopt similar lifestyles points to its origin not as an unfortunate mutation that afflicts only a few ethnic groups, but as a beneficial mutation that potentially increased social survival rate, likely occurring before emigration from Africa. One might say that this is contrary to logic. I might say again that acne should not be viewed as a disease, but as a symptom.

 

Smallpox, for example. Red spots on the body are not directly caused by infection. Red spots are caused by your body in order to warn others to stay away. This is a similar trait shared by many diseases. It makes sense that acne should be more sever shortly before or during menstruation. Why does PMS exist? It makes sense that, if you have some form of dysbiosis, you would have acne. You wouldn't want to spread that to the rest of your tribe, and neither perhaps (depending on severity) are you fit to have intimate social interactions that have further consequences, such as childbearing.

 

Yes, there is a genetic trigger. There is a genetic reason for everything we observe about the human body, whether it be by genetic regulation or by genetic change. But that is a far cry from a direct genetic cause. It might even be likely that the entire population shares the 'acne' gene, but the ones who eat garbage and have flawless skin have a mutated protein that is upregulated in response to sebaceous androgen binding that inhibits an inflammatory secondary response. Many things could change. But what we can understand should be based on observation, and reasonable extrapolation.

Hmm, with regards to the hunter-gatherer tribes you speak of; they have interbred with no exposure to foreigners meaning no exposure to the disease. In fact, acne does not discriminate and effects all races, rich and poor (bar the odd few tribes who have never been exposed to it). Regardless of genetic trigger or none, symptom of something or not - treatment of the disease is the same. Even if you could pinpoint the exact reason why acne was happening to you (unless you're allergic to a food group) there's nothing you could do anyway.

Once that gene has been triggered there's nothing you can do to stop it. There's just the arsenal of medication that is available to us currently. No-one wants to take roaccutane or slather themselves with BP but what choice do we have? It's not our fault that we suffer with acne. It just happened.

 

Agreed. Acne does not discriminate just as Cancer does not discriminate; it can occur in anyone regardless of race, bodyweight, location, diet ect.

 

I think what that other poster is trying to bring to the table is that the reason why we're experiencing acne as opposed to the nomadic tribesmen (or whatever) is because of our "unnatural western diet" and how that triggers us to break out.  Sigh.. I've said this before - not everyone on this site is from "America" or the "West" and many, many posters here have exceptionally healthy eating habits and eat all around clean and natural.

 

I understand what he's trying to "dig at" but it just doesn't fly as we were all raised in different environments yet all of us here are regardless experiencing acne. It's unlikely that it's environmental.


Edited by foreverbold, 25 March 2013 - 03:39 PM.

Morning skin care routine:
 
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#45 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:09 PM

Cancer does discriminate, mostly. The majority (90%) of cancers occur because of environmental influences. Unlike what I propose for acne pathogenesis, this is accepted by the scientific community.

 

 

I think cancer is actually a really good example of what I'm talking about. Many think it's purely genetic and there isn't anything we can do about it. There are cases where genetics play a large role (BRCA mutants have between a 75 and 90% chance of getting breast cancer). But even these cases are not absolute. If you have a BRCA mutation, you are not bound to get cancer. In the 90% of cancer cases that occur in the absence of mutations like BRCA, environmental factors like smoking, drinking, and diet are the driving causes of cancer.

 

I think you're 100% right to say that acne is much more complicated than eating an apple a day. And I think you're 100% right to say that changing diet will not help everyone. I've done diet changes. They did NOT help me. I'm using benzoyl peroxide. It IS helping me. Be we have to be careful when we look at these observations not to draw erroneous conclusions.

 

(Just going to add in here that the concept of healthy varies dramatically from person to person. For some it could be whole grains. For others, whole grains are equivalent to unimaginable pain. I have yet to see an example of hunter gatherers suffering from acne. If someone could find one for me, I would gladly take it into consideration. I build my opinions on observations, and freely let them go when the facts are found to be contrary. Also, someone mentioned stress, and I have no doubt that stress is a factor in acne. The eskimo example, though, did not seem to show a significant increase in stress, while a drastic change in diet was induced).

 

Acne is a highly complicated disorder. There is no single cause. At the moment, there is no single cure. But by considering all angles, we come to a greater understanding of our affliction.



#46 foreverbold

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

Cancer does discriminate, mostly. The majority (90%) of cancers occur because of environmental influences. Unlike what I propose for acne pathogenesis, this is accepted by the scientific community.

 

 

I think cancer is actually a really good example of what I'm talking about. Many think it's purely genetic and there isn't anything we can do about it. There are cases where genetics play a large role (BRCA mutants have between a 75 and 90% chance of getting breast cancer). But even these cases are not absolute. If you have a BRCA mutation, you are not bound to get cancer. In the 90% of cancer cases that occur in the absence of mutations like BRCA, environmental factors like smoking, drinking, and diet are the driving causes of cancer.

 

I think you're 100% right to say that acne is much more complicated than eating an apple a day. And I think you're 100% right to say that changing diet will not help everyone. I've done diet changes. They did NOT help me. I'm using benzoyl peroxide. It IS helping me. Be we have to be careful when we look at these observations not to draw erroneous conclusions.

 

(Just going to add in here that the concept of healthy varies dramatically from person to person. For some it could be whole grains. For others, whole grains are equivalent to unimaginable pain. I have yet to see an example of hunter gatherers suffering from acne. If someone could find one for me, I would gladly take it into consideration. I build my opinions on observations, and freely let them go when the facts are found to be contrary. Also, someone mentioned stress, and I have no doubt that stress is a factor in acne. The eskimo example, though, did not seem to show a significant increase in stress, while a drastic change in diet was induced).

 

Acne is a highly complicated disorder. There is no single cause. At the moment, there is no single cure. But by considering all angles, we come to a greater understanding of our affliction.

 

Cancer hits pretty random actually. It is not a preventable disease at all. The majority of cancers are idiopathic actually and have no known origin. You obviously have never personally been affected by it. The cancer wards are full of non-smokers and people that never have done a single damaging thing to their bodies in their life.


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#47 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:25 PM

I myself have never had cancer. I watched my father died of lung cancer. He did not smoke. I don't mean to sound angry when I say this, but: please, be careful what you assume about people.

 

Like I said, I am just repeating scientific consensus. Wikipedia's article on cancer: 

 

"Determining what causes cancer is complex. Many things are known to increase the risk of cancer, including tobacco use, certain infectionsradiationlack of physical activityobesity, and environmental pollutants.[2] These can directly damage genes or combine with existing genetic faults within cells to cause the disease.[3] Approximately five to ten percent of cancers are entirely hereditary."

 

5-10%. My estimate of 90% being due to environmental factors was on the low end. Idiopathic cancer largely does not exist. I've extensively researched several types of cancer and will be moving into the field of cancer research.



#48 foreverbold

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

I myself have never had cancer. I watched my father died of lung cancer. He did not smoke. I don't mean to sound angry when I say this, but: please, be careful what you assume about people.

 

Like I said, I am just repeating scientific consensus. Wikipedia's article on cancer: 

 

"Determining what causes cancer is complex. Many things are known to increase the risk of cancer, including tobacco use, certain infectionsradiationlack of physical activityobesity, and environmental pollutants.[2] These can directly damage genes or combine with existing genetic faults within cells to cause the disease.[3] Approximately five to ten percent of cancers are entirely hereditary."

 

5-10%. My estimate of 90% being due to environmental factors was on the low end. Idiopathic cancer largely does not exist. I've extensively researched several types of cancer and will be moving into the field of cancer research.

 

 

Wikipedia? are you kidding me, anyone can edit that sh*t. Lots of cancers occur for no reason at all as in the person had no risk factors or family history. Cancer is very, very, very random.

 

Obesity, smoking and radiation exposure are only heightening risk factors for *certain types* of cancer - not definite 100% causes. Also don't forget things like radiation and smoking are gradually cumulative meaning the person has to be exposed to the carcinogen for a long time to develop any type of gene mutation resulting in cancer (if they do at all) it doesn't happen over night.

 

Like I said before, you can only influence your health for the better - but you can't entirely control it. You yourself could be diagnosed with a brain tumor in a few months regardless of your knowledge on genetics and health. Cancer really doesn't discriminate.


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#49 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:10 PM

Wikipedia has good standards. Saying anyone can edit it doesn't change the references is provides. You can look at the papers it cites if you wish.

 

Cancer can seem random, just like many things do on a macro scale, but it really isn't. It's perfectly calculated. If all the unknowns could be known, you would be able to predict the exact occurrence of cancer in an individual.

 

Things like obesity, smoking, etc increase the occurrence of many types of cancer. For example:

 

"Smoking also increases the risk of over a dozen other cancers including cancers of the mouthlarynx(voice box), pharynx (upper throat), nose and sinuses, oesophagus (food pipe), liverpancreas,stomachkidneybladdercervix and bowel, as well as one type of ovarian cancer and some types of leukaemia. There is also some evidence that smoking could increase the risk of breast cancer."

 

http://www.cancerres...king-and-cancer

 

 

One should keep in mind that the body has ways of preventing mutations. Many, many ways. We can easily prevent our bodies from doing the job of fixing DNA or neutralizing free radicals by having poor lifestyles. Also, it's important to realize that we haven't defined all the risk factors of cancer. And those we have defined still exist around all of us in minute concentrations.



#50 foreverbold

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

Wikipedia has good standards. Saying anyone can edit it doesn't change the references is provides. You can look at the papers it cites if you wish.

 

Cancer can seem random, just like many things do on a macro scale, but it really isn't. It's perfectly calculated. If all the unknowns could be known, you would be able to predict the exact occurrence of cancer in an individual.

 

Things like obesity, smoking, etc increase the occurrence of many types of cancer. For example:

 

"Smoking also increases the risk of over a dozen other cancers including cancers of the mouthlarynx(voice box), pharynx (upper throat), nose and sinuses, oesophagus (food pipe), liverpancreas,stomachkidneybladdercervix and bowel, as well as one type of ovarian cancer and some types of leukaemia. There is also some evidence that smoking could increase the risk of breast cancer."

 

http://www.cancerres...king-and-cancer

 

 

One should keep in mind that the body has ways of preventing mutations. Many, many ways. We can easily prevent our bodies from doing the job of fixing DNA or neutralizing free radicals by having poor lifestyles. Also, it's important to realize that we haven't defined all the risk factors of cancer. And those we have defined still exist around all of us in minute concentrations.

 

No....

 

I'm not denying living a healthy lifestyle promotes good health but that doesn't make you immune from developing cancer. To pin the general majority of Cancers on bad habits is down right disgusting.


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#51 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:41 PM

Well it's more than just a healthy lifestyle. There are chemicals we can't avoid. Ventilation systems, paint, fabrics, everything around us is laden with chemicals. But you're right in that nothing makes you immune to cancer, although this statement goes only so far - plenty of people have died of something other than cancer, what we call old age - a wearing of the heart valves (congestive heart failure).

 

Here's a somewhat recent study on causes of death among the Hiwi, bolded for emphasis:

 

"The relative importance of major causes of death in the Hiwi vs. modern America is also striking. In the U.S., the major killers are heart disease and cancers, both almost nonexistent among hunter-gatherers."

 

http://www.sciencedi...047248406002193

 

Almost nonexistant is pretty good



#52 foreverbold

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:46 PM

Well it's more than just a healthy lifestyle. There are chemicals we can't avoid. Ventilation systems, paint, fabrics, everything around us is laden with chemicals. But you're right in that nothing makes you immune to cancer, although this statement goes only so far - plenty of people have died of something other than cancer, what we call old age - a wearing of the heart valves (congestive heart failure).

 

Here's a somewhat recent study on causes of death among the Hiwi, bolded for emphasis:

 

"The relative importance of major causes of death in the Hiwi vs. modern America is also striking. In the U.S., the major killers are heart disease and cancers, both almost nonexistent among hunter-gatherers."

 

http://www.sciencedi...047248406002193

 

Almost nonexistant is pretty good

 

 

Okay, enough about Cancer and Cancer statistics. Let's take a step back into talking about acne ignorance again.


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#53 CBIOT13

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:35 AM



Reading this made me feel so sad that acne could lead to eating disorders, I'd never even thought about that. My diet is crap, I know it is, I accept it and I should change it, but I just can't do it (I have a phobia of most fruits and veg- it's the textures, but that's another issue), so maybe my acne is not being helped by that, but I doubt it. Alot of people still believe bad diet causes acne, chocolate, dairy etc, I guess maybe it does make it worse in some people, it's hard to know isn't it? Everything about acne is so patient specific. I do think all these radical diets are a load of bull though, if you've going to change your diet, just eat a balanced diet and be healthy, don't cut whole food groups out, acne isn't worth an eating disorder. I've never been on the diet parts of the forums, I think I'd just laugh at it to be honest! I still think my acne (and probably most people's imo) is hormone related, it started exactly the same time as puberty and hasn't left 12 years later. I'm sorry you've had such a bad time of it, actually the first thing someone asked me on here was if I had tried changing my diet - I figured it would be though.

 
It makes me so sad too that the popular belief these days more than ever is that food and acne is entirely related and that if the person just cut out "Dairy" they'll be totally acne free. This really isn't true - especially for those of us with severe acne that comes up regardles of consuming dairy ect.
 
My acne has no trigger, it just comes daily as a result of genetics and the abnormal way my sebaceous glands get overstimulated by hormones erronously making excess sebum. I feel like a lot of people are in the same boat too; I have no power over this disease and I accept that now which is kind of a relief because before I was holding my self responsible and that caused me a tremendous amount of self hatred.
I definelty agree with you about all the people getting preachy about diet affecting acne. And quite frankly, for most people diet has NOTHING to do with acne. I always get a kick out of the people with like 3000 posts that come on this website and preach about how specific diets affect acne.

I have had three dermatologists tell me that for 80% of the population,diet does not affect acne. Acne is cyclical, and there's many, many factors that go into whether you have acne or not. Diet is ONE thing that, in combination with others, can affect acne. It is by no means the root cause, and anyone with an education in this area will agree with that. But in reality the most preachy people seem to be the ones without degrees LOL.

The best thing to do? If you see those members that have tons of posts, with signatures that talk about the eight types of foods to never eat LOL, and that seem to be full bore into alternative medicine and against "Big Pharmacy" lol; just skip the thread.

These people come on here and try to play doctor or dermatologist, with nothing but google and a warped view of the medical industry to guide them.

But don't let these people bother you too much. For every annoying idiot that preaches how dairy or a gluten free diet will cure acne for everyone, there's 10 others that know better but don't want to waste the energy to call out the guy.

Edited by CBIOT13, 07 April 2013 - 09:38 AM.

People never cease to amaze me. Some with their brilliance, others with their ignorance. eusa_think.gif

 

Here's A Few Acne.org Threads Of Mine You May Find Useful/Interesting (updated 7/25/13)

-- DIY Apple Cider Vinegar Toner http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/324606-flakydryoily-skin-try-this/

-- How to Ice Inflammed or Picked at Cysts http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/327532-acne-redness-removal-trick/

-- Milk of Magnesia Uses http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/329385-ways-to-use-milk-of-magnesia-for-oily-skin/

Other Threads Worth Looking At

-- Oily Skin Research Thread: This shows some of our previous efforts and explains the mechanisms behind oily skin.

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/326345-oily-skin-research/

-- My failed but enlightening experiment going the "less is more" route, aka "The Caveman Routine"

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/327898-a-minimalist-approach-for-oily-skin/