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The Ignorance On This Website Upsets Me


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#21 foreverbold

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:30 PM

I woke up this morning to an email from a friend that I thought was absolutely relevant to this conversation. The friend is studying to be a registered dietician. She used to be a lot like how I used to be, not trusting mainstream ideas, always reading stuff about diet/health on the internet. She is healthy, but her husband has a lot of health problems similar to mine so she was always looking for an answer. Eventually she decided to go back to school and was amazed at all the stuff she learned and how much of what she thought she knew about diet before was bullshit.

 

Anyway, today she was telling me how for school, one assignment was to go on the net and find 20 different health/diet related forum threads and then check them for accuracy and the spreading of "harmful information" (things like people advising others to give up certain foods with no scientific data to back it up). She said she found so many threads that were giving horrible and potentially dangerous diet advice that it was difficult to even narrow it down to the 20 worst.

 

Not only that, but she's also studying the FODMAPS diet thing, and she said never, ever to read anything about it online because it's basically complete and total bull, it isn't something where you can just go get a list of foods to avoid and apply it to everyone, it's something you have to work with a doctor on, because each individual who has the FODMAP sensitivity could need a completely different diet from someone else. So all those lists that people are using to do the FODMAP diet right now (a lot of people in the holistic section are doing this, it's like the newest "thing" after Paleo) could just be something some random made up off the top of their head... it really makes me feel sad for all the people who have their hopes on this and are following some random list to the T and making their life around it.

 

Ugh... you know? It's just so upsetting. I'm glad we escaped this mentality but I feel worried for other acne sufferers who are still falling for this stuff.

 

I worry about other young girls with acne falling into a severe eating disorder too due to these people and their claims. More than half of the people that frequent acne.org are in their teens - and more than half of them proabably believe they get acne because of something they eat or do wrong and would be willing to try anything. What a shame.



#22 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

There isn't a single cause for acne. It's super hard to diagnose, and super hard to treat. If only it were as simple as hormones=acne, we would have cured it by now. Plenty of hormonal treatments do exist. Many people have both treated and cured their acne using diet as a tool. Many have also used accutane, antibiotics, hormonal treatments like birth control or herbs, and topicals. It's hard to generalize when it comes to acne.

 

One has only to look so far as observation to understand that acne isn't something that 'just happens'. Many groups of people all around the world do not suffer from acne at all. Often, immigrants moving from one area to another will gain or lose their acne. Environment has much to do with this malady, and I don't doubt that some sort of diet can (almost) completely prevent it from happening. However, I do doubt that a diet can always cure acne.

 

Some people believe that they can only believe accepted science. Being a scientist, I would advise others not to do so. Science is wrong many times before it is right. Look at heart disease. We thought it was caused by eating too many eggs, because eggs have cholesterol in them, and atherosclerotic lesions have cholesterol in them. We are now beginning to understand that dietary cholesterol has almost no impact on hard disease, and that cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease at all; in fact, it's more likely to be the bread that you eat, which spikes blood sugar, thus damaging blood vessels and allowing oxidized cholesterol to embed itself beneath the tissue. In short, we were wrong, and for such a long time too. We're wrong about dandruff, acid reflux, and a host of other diseases as well. Because if we were right, we would know how to cure instead of simply how to treat.

 

It's in the hands of people to figure out what's wrong with them when nothing else works. Because until science catches up, that's the best we can do.



#23 foreverbold

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:27 PM

There isn't a single cause for acne. It's super hard to diagnose, and super hard to treat. If only it were as simple as hormones=acne, we would have cured it by now. Plenty of hormonal treatments do exist. Many people have both treated and cured their acne using diet as a tool. Many have also used accutane, antibiotics, hormonal treatments like birth control or herbs, and topicals. It's hard to generalize when it comes to acne.

 

One has only to look so far as observation to understand that acne isn't something that 'just happens'. Many groups of people all around the world do not suffer from acne at all. Often, immigrants moving from one area to another will gain or lose their acne. Environment has much to do with this malady, and I don't doubt that some sort of diet can (almost) completely prevent it from happening. However, I do doubt that a diet can always cure acne.

 

Some people believe that they can only believe accepted science. Being a scientist, I would advise others not to do so. Science is wrong many times before it is right. Look at heart disease. We thought it was caused by eating too many eggs, because eggs have cholesterol in them, and atherosclerotic lesions have cholesterol in them. We are now beginning to understand that dietary cholesterol has almost no impact on hard disease, and that cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease at all; in fact, it's more likely to be the bread that you eat, which spikes blood sugar, thus damaging blood vessels and allowing oxidized cholesterol to embed itself beneath the tissue. In short, we were wrong, and for such a long time too. We're wrong about dandruff, acid reflux, and a host of other diseases as well. Because if we were right, we would know how to cure instead of simply how to treat.

 

It's in the hands of people to figure out what's wrong with them when nothing else works. Because until science catches up, that's the best we can do.

 

 

As a "scientist" shouldn't you know that there is a strong hereditary component to cystic acne? my father had Acne Conglobata and so did all three of my half brothers (his kids) and I got an aggressive strain of acne as well (though not conglobata, but still very severe). All of us developed this at exactly the same age at 11 years old. Do you really think that's environmental? ha! genetics have the strongest pull on everything.



#24 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:55 PM

Yes of course. That's why some people can abuse their bodies horribly and be 'fine'.  It's just a predisposition, though. Not a cause.



#25 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

There isn't a single cause for acne. It's super hard to diagnose, and super hard to treat. If only it were as simple as hormones=acne, we would have cured it by now. Plenty of hormonal treatments do exist. Many people have both treated and cured their acne using diet as a tool. Many have also used accutane, antibiotics, hormonal treatments like birth control or herbs, and topicals. It's hard to generalize when it comes to acne.

 

One has only to look so far as observation to understand that acne isn't something that 'just happens'. Many groups of people all around the world do not suffer from acne at all. Often, immigrants moving from one area to another will gain or lose their acne. Environment has much to do with this malady, and I don't doubt that some sort of diet can (almost) completely prevent it from happening. However, I do doubt that a diet can always cure acne.

 

Some people believe that they can only believe accepted science. Being a scientist, I would advise others not to do so. Science is wrong many times before it is right. Look at heart disease. We thought it was caused by eating too many eggs, because eggs have cholesterol in them, and atherosclerotic lesions have cholesterol in them. We are now beginning to understand that dietary cholesterol has almost no impact on hard disease, and that cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease at all; in fact, it's more likely to be the bread that you eat, which spikes blood sugar, thus damaging blood vessels and allowing oxidized cholesterol to embed itself beneath the tissue. In short, we were wrong, and for such a long time too. We're wrong about dandruff, acid reflux, and a host of other diseases as well. Because if we were right, we would know how to cure instead of simply how to treat.

 

It's in the hands of people to figure out what's wrong with them when nothing else works. Because until science catches up, that's the best we can do.

 

 

As a "scientist" shouldn't you know that there is a strong hereditary component to cystic acne? my father had Acne Conglobata and so did all three of my half brothers (his kids) and I got an aggressive strain of acne as well (though not conglobata, but still very severe). All of us developed this at exactly the same age at 11 years old. Do you really think that's environmental? ha! genetics have the strongest pull on everything.

 

What's your theory to explain those of us who have NO acne in their family line? Neither my mother or father, nor any of my aunts and uncles or grandparents on either side have acne. None of them had it as teens either. No one else in my family (including all cousins) has it like I do. Not ONE person.



#26 AlexanderJ86

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:55 PM

 

There isn't a single cause for acne. It's super hard to diagnose, and super hard to treat. If only it were as simple as hormones=acne, we would have cured it by now. Plenty of hormonal treatments do exist. Many people have both treated and cured their acne using diet as a tool. Many have also used accutane, antibiotics, hormonal treatments like birth control or herbs, and topicals. It's hard to generalize when it comes to acne.

 

One has only to look so far as observation to understand that acne isn't something that 'just happens'. Many groups of people all around the world do not suffer from acne at all. Often, immigrants moving from one area to another will gain or lose their acne. Environment has much to do with this malady, and I don't doubt that some sort of diet can (almost) completely prevent it from happening. However, I do doubt that a diet can always cure acne.

 

Some people believe that they can only believe accepted science. Being a scientist, I would advise others not to do so. Science is wrong many times before it is right. Look at heart disease. We thought it was caused by eating too many eggs, because eggs have cholesterol in them, and atherosclerotic lesions have cholesterol in them. We are now beginning to understand that dietary cholesterol has almost no impact on hard disease, and that cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease at all; in fact, it's more likely to be the bread that you eat, which spikes blood sugar, thus damaging blood vessels and allowing oxidized cholesterol to embed itself beneath the tissue. In short, we were wrong, and for such a long time too. We're wrong about dandruff, acid reflux, and a host of other diseases as well. Because if we were right, we would know how to cure instead of simply how to treat.

 

It's in the hands of people to figure out what's wrong with them when nothing else works. Because until science catches up, that's the best we can do.

 

 

As a "scientist" shouldn't you know that there is a strong hereditary component to cystic acne? my father had Acne Conglobata and so did all three of my half brothers (his kids) and I got an aggressive strain of acne as well (though not conglobata, but still very severe). All of us developed this at exactly the same age at 11 years old. Do you really think that's environmental? ha! genetics have the strongest pull on everything.

 

What's your theory to explain those of us who have NO acne in their family line? Neither my mother or father, nor any of my aunts and uncles or grandparents on either side have acne. None of them had it as teens either. No one else in my family (including all cousins) has it like I do. Not ONE person.

A mutation.



#27 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:30 PM

A mutation would certainly be possible, but the chances of the exact mutation occurring in order for acne to go from not happening to happening is incredibly low. Pair this with the observation that acne is ubiquitous across populations (except for a select few areas), and it becomes more likely that other factors are leading to this person's acne. Genes are not the only responsible factor. I'll cite again the idea that someone without acne can move from one culture to another and suddenly experience acne, purely due to environmental factors. Of course, that person would have the genes required for their acne to be triggered, but it is the situation that determines its appearance, not solely genetic makeup, much like almost all human diseases.



#28 Miss Soloist

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

I had been to see the European Leading Dermatologist in acne who explained to me how acne is formed and how it ceases. We all know how acne forms, that's simple - it's our sebacious glands reaction to testosterone in the body that causes the gland to produce sticky sebum where skin cells get caught up inside creating a plug, inside that plug p.acnes reproduce , the body creates an immune response - inflammation etc - acne.

The interesting thing is how acne ceases.

He explained that your body eventually produces a T-cell which ceases the bodies inflammatory response to acne. The trouble is no-one knows how or when this will happen. This is why some people grow out of it and some don't. It can be induced with medication/treatment etc.

The thing I don't understand is how some people can go from being in remission to having acne again. Hmm.



#29 foreverbold

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:44 PM

I had been to see the European Leading Dermatologist in acne who explained to me how acne is formed and how it ceases. We all know how acne forms, that's simple - it's our sebacious glands reaction to testosterone in the body that causes the gland to produce sticky sebum where skin cells get caught up inside creating a plug, inside that plug p.acnes reproduce , the body creates an immune response - inflammation etc - acne.

The interesting thing is how acne ceases.

He explained that your body eventually produces a T-cell which ceases the bodies inflammatory response to acne. The trouble is no-one knows how or when this will happen. This is why some people grow out of it and some don't. It can be induced with medication/treatment etc.

The thing I don't understand is how some people can go from being in remission to having acne again. Hmm.

 

 

Are you suggesting an autoimmune component to acne? That I somewhat agree on.



#30 Miss Soloist

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

I suppose to an extent. I don't want to pretend I know everything about acne or anything, that's just what I was told. I suppose it makes sense at least in my case as I have enjoyed remission of my disease and I have never used roaccutane, only antibiotics, gels, peels etc.

It doesn't really make much sense that it can go away and come back again and come back a lot worse. My Derm seemed to think in my case it is linked to the adrenal glands but who knows, sadly whatever the cause of it treatments still remain the same.

 

Probably off topic somewhat but my Derm also took me off of Yasmin BC as he said that although it might clear me up a bit the problem with birth controls is they influence a certain enzyme expression and once this is taken away it's likely your face will explode. I know Dejaclairevoyant took birthcontrol so I don't know if this is the reason why she is breaking out. No idea. Just throwing in some (I'm sorry) rather vague ideas there. I haven't seen my Derm since Feb but going back in May.


Edited by Miss Soloist, 24 March 2013 - 05:04 PM.


#31 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:04 PM

I had been to see the European Leading Dermatologist in acne who explained to me how acne is formed and how it ceases. We all know how acne forms, that's simple - it's our sebacious glands reaction to testosterone in the body that causes the gland to produce sticky sebum where skin cells get caught up inside creating a plug, inside that plug p.acnes reproduce , the body creates an immune response - inflammation etc - acne.

The interesting thing is how acne ceases.

He explained that your body eventually produces a T-cell which ceases the bodies inflammatory response to acne. The trouble is no-one knows how or when this will happen. This is why some people grow out of it and some don't. It can be induced with medication/treatment etc.

The thing I don't understand is how some people can go from being in remission to having acne again. Hmm.

 

I think we have this mindset of acne being a disease, and not a symptom. It isn't like cancer, which can go into remission. It's a trained response of the body to something that goes wrong. That something can be many things. If that something comes back, the acne can surely follow.

 

Just like most diseases, acne is mediated by the immune system. All that white pus after all is just a bunch of leukocytes.



#32 Miss Soloist

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:59 AM

I'd have to disagree with you there. I believe acne is a disease. But then regardless of whether it is a symptom of something else or not treatment of it is the same.

There's always a danger that can send people running off trying to find some secret fault in their body but 9 times out of 10 it is genetics. It's just a genetic predisposition to react in a certain way.  I accept in some instances it can be a reaction to certain food allergies but for the majority of people it's genes.



#33 KirstyAust94

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:53 AM

*Hugs* 

 

Acne and pimples can be avoided by those who devour greasy pizza daily, rarely wash their face and use make-up with dirty sponges and utensils, yet strike those who follow strict regimes and clean diets and do everything in their power to avoid it. I'm sorry you have to go through this, and it is not your fault. 

 

If you become pregnant (hopefully I don't for another like, 12 years, haha) people suddenly become perinatal and postnatal experts, issuing their two cents about breast feeding and diet and the right and wrong ways to parent as though they were Dr. Phil. My friend, who is healthier and more athletic than anyone else I know, was diagnosed with cancer in her late teens and quickly told people who said if she were vegan, lived a healthy lifestyle free of toxins that this would have never happened - when she was all of those things already. If you develop depression, loved ones may guide you to and far away from therapy and recommend or discourage antidepressants. My point is that, with every medical issue and everything concerning our bodies, there are always going to be uninformed people issuing their two cents. This is only truly detrimental when the information is presented factually and can have dangerous ramifications. You're realising that some of the stuff you are stumbling upon is ignorant, but there are also a lot of golden nuggets of wisdom hidden among the imbeciles. I'm willing to bargain that the golden nuggets outweigh the imbeciles. 

 

Try to take a step back and see if people are really ignorant, or just trying to help, or a mixture of both. Changing your pillow case regularly, and using a shower filter, and switching your cleanser are all things that are going to help someone who's acne is an occasional pimple and isn't intense and persistent. A lot of the things that are being reiterated are wives tales that have  plagued peoples minds for centuries before us and centuries to come. 

 

Don't let these comments be taken to heart. Most are well-intentioned, even if admittedly.... ignorant. 



#34 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

A mutation would certainly be possible, but the chances of the exact mutation occurring in order for acne to go from not happening to happening is incredibly low. Pair this with the observation that acne is ubiquitous across populations (except for a select few areas), and it becomes more likely that other factors are leading to this person's acne. Genes are not the only responsible factor. I'll cite again the idea that someone without acne can move from one culture to another and suddenly experience acne, purely due to environmental factors. Of course, that person would have the genes required for their acne to be triggered, but it is the situation that determines its appearance, not solely genetic makeup, much like almost all human diseases.


I agree. I just wanted to see what you guys would say. I think my skin problems are long-term manifestations of the damage that happens to the body from years and years of severe stress and damaging my body by eating foods I was intolerant to. That is where it gets complicated for me because I do have real, legit food intolerances to gluten and soy. But that was one factor in a huge mess of other health problems, severe emotional problems and blockages.

 

I didn't have a normal childhood. I was very stressed, every single day. I puked almost every morning before school. I cried myself to sleep every night. I lived in constant stress. If I had to explain a root to all my health problems, I'd sum it up in one word: childhood. I'm sure there is some genetic component to everything, but I know deep down that the stress in my life caused many of my problems. How could a child possibly grow up to be healthy and develop properly when they are living that way? Now add the years of malnutrition that I suffered from my celiac disease and it isn't surprising that I am where I am today.



#35 D90

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

Having faced food issues in my lifetime I can relate to the post. Although most people come from loving intentions it can certainly have an adverse effect on some people. Especially when people get into analysis paralysis about what you can or can't eat. Before you know it you've analyzed yourself out of the bloody kitchen and I know the extremes it can take you. Keep the faith, keep on keeping on God bless :) 



#36 LewisS

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:15 AM

If diet caused acne, I think 99% of the population would have it severely. Most of my friends eat dreadfully (McDonald's everyday, sometimes twice a day) and they have absolutely flawless skin, not a single blemish. I personally have a well-balanced diet, limited sugar and drink only water - my skin is oily, dry, really sensitive and I break out with disgusting whiteheads.

 

So no, it's not always diet, but it may be for some. I could eat anything and my acne wouldn't get any better or worse, it's constantly the same regardless of my intake of alcohol or food. 



#37 AlexanderJ86

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

In my case it is genetics.



#38 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:51 AM

I'm beginning to see that many people seem to be mistaking a genetic cause for a genetic trigger. What I mean by this is that many assume acne to be a purely genetic condition they can do nothing about except slather on benzoyl peroxide or slay their stem cells with accutane. People observe that others can do whatever they want to their bodies, and suffer no consequences (at least in terms of acne). They conclude that genes must be the sole cause.

 

It is likely that genes are involved. It is not likely that they are the sole cause (though it is possible, just like most things are when it comes to genes). There is a reason for the consideration of acne as a disease of affluence, and there is a reason that it does not appear in many cultural groups at all. Whereas the incidence of acne in America nears 100% in adolescence, it nears or is equal to 0% in numerous hunter-gatherer tribes.

 

The ubiquity of acne across cultures that adopt similar lifestyles points to its origin not as an unfortunate mutation that afflicts only a few ethnic groups, but as a beneficial mutation that potentially increased social survival rate, likely occurring before emigration from Africa. One might say that this is contrary to logic. I might say again that acne should not be viewed as a disease, but as a symptom.

 

Smallpox, for example. Red spots on the body are not directly caused by infection. Red spots are caused by your body in order to warn others to stay away. This is a similar trait shared by many diseases. It makes sense that acne should be more sever shortly before or during menstruation. Why does PMS exist? It makes sense that, if you have some form of dysbiosis, you would have acne. You wouldn't want to spread that to the rest of your tribe, and neither perhaps (depending on severity) are you fit to have intimate social interactions that have further consequences, such as childbearing.

 

Yes, there is a genetic trigger. There is a genetic reason for everything we observe about the human body, whether it be by genetic regulation or by genetic change. But that is a far cry from a direct genetic cause. It might even be likely that the entire population shares the 'acne' gene, but the ones who eat garbage and have flawless skin have a mutated protein that is upregulated in response to sebaceous androgen binding that inhibits an inflammatory secondary response. Many things could change. But what we can understand should be based on observation, and reasonable extrapolation.



#39 Miss Soloist

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:09 PM

I'm beginning to see that many people seem to be mistaking a genetic cause for a genetic trigger. What I mean by this is that many assume acne to be a purely genetic condition they can do nothing about except slather on benzoyl peroxide or slay their stem cells with accutane. People observe that others can do whatever they want to their bodies, and suffer no consequences (at least in terms of acne). They conclude that genes must be the sole cause.

 

It is likely that genes are involved. It is not likely that they are the sole cause (though it is possible, just like most things are when it comes to genes). There is a reason for the consideration of acne as a disease of affluence, and there is a reason that it does not appear in many cultural groups at all. Whereas the incidence of acne in America nears 100% in adolescence, it nears or is equal to 0% in numerous hunter-gatherer tribes.

 

The ubiquity of acne across cultures that adopt similar lifestyles points to its origin not as an unfortunate mutation that afflicts only a few ethnic groups, but as a beneficial mutation that potentially increased social survival rate, likely occurring before emigration from Africa. One might say that this is contrary to logic. I might say again that acne should not be viewed as a disease, but as a symptom.

 

Smallpox, for example. Red spots on the body are not directly caused by infection. Red spots are caused by your body in order to warn others to stay away. This is a similar trait shared by many diseases. It makes sense that acne should be more sever shortly before or during menstruation. Why does PMS exist? It makes sense that, if you have some form of dysbiosis, you would have acne. You wouldn't want to spread that to the rest of your tribe, and neither perhaps (depending on severity) are you fit to have intimate social interactions that have further consequences, such as childbearing.

 

Yes, there is a genetic trigger. There is a genetic reason for everything we observe about the human body, whether it be by genetic regulation or by genetic change. But that is a far cry from a direct genetic cause. It might even be likely that the entire population shares the 'acne' gene, but the ones who eat garbage and have flawless skin have a mutated protein that is upregulated in response to sebaceous androgen binding that inhibits an inflammatory secondary response. Many things could change. But what we can understand should be based on observation, and reasonable extrapolation.

Hmm, with regards to the hunter-gatherer tribes you speak of; they have interbred with no exposure to foreigners meaning no exposure to the disease. In fact, acne does not discriminate and effects all races, rich and poor (bar the odd few tribes who have never been exposed to it). Regardless of genetic trigger or none, symptom of something or not - treatment of the disease is the same. Even if you could pinpoint the exact reason why acne was happening to you (unless you're allergic to a food group) there's nothing you could do anyway.

Once that gene has been triggered there's nothing you can do to stop it. There's just the arsenal of medication that is available to us currently. No-one wants to take roaccutane or slather themselves with BP but what choice do we have? It's not our fault that we suffer with acne. It just happened.


Edited by Miss Soloist, 25 March 2013 - 12:11 PM.


#40 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:45 PM

It's more than just hunter-gatherer tribes. A few studies have been done in this regard. Here are links to two of the more well known articles:

 

 

http://archderm.jama...rticleid=479093

 

http://www.popline.org/node/487887

 

 

First: Absence of acne in Kitavan tribespeople (which may be due to inbreeding as you said), and hunter-gatherers of Paraguay (which are likely not due to inbreeding for a number of reasons, partly because of location and radiation out of Africa timeframe). In the introduction, it mentions several studies looking at the people of Okinawa (certainly not genetically isolated), rural Brazilian schoolchildren (2.7% acne, not isolated, but different lifestyle). Acne was obtained by the Zulu in South Africa only when they moved to villages or cities.

 

Second: Eskimos obtained acne when they moved from their nomadic lifestyle to a western lifestyle.

 

Treatment of acne is changing, still, as we learn more about its pathology. And we still don't know everything. Once we do, I'm sure acne will become completely curable. Gene expression changes all the time, so there must be ways to undo it. After all, we've cured cancer before, and that's the definition of unstoppable changes in genes. I don't blame anyone for embracing these treatments that we have - I'm using BP right now. I think BP is useful for treating acne, but my opinion doesn't change facts.