53 replies to this topic

[Omnivium]

I don't know if this belongs in the acne research section, but I think it will be more helpful here, where people with oily skin will see it.

 

I'm going to make some posts about what causes oily skin, why Accutane works, and whatever else I think of. I'm kind of busy with school, so I won't be able to post very often.

 

1. Androgens Cause Sebum Production

2. Accutane Decreases Sebocyte Proliferation and Differentiation

3. Oral Spironolactone Decreases Free Androgens and Blocks Androgen Receptors

Edited by Omnivium, 01 March 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[CBIOT13]

Great info, I've been looking into this too and it explains many things about chronic excessively-oily skin.

The big reason why it's so hard to control is the fact that for most people, it's caused by hormones. Specifically, it has to do with either us having large amounts of Testosterone (and its derivatives) OR that our sebaceous glands in the skin are over-sensitive to the average levels of Test we have.

A good majority of the few success stories we have based on this. Green Tea, Saw Palmetto, and Birth Control work mainly because they regulate hormones. Green Tea and Saw Palmetto have compounds that inhibit the conversion of Test to DHT, and birth control works a little differently but has the same net effects.

The problem though, is for men, messing around with our most important hormones is entirely a roll of the dice. It might work, or you could have disastrous consequences. Using this approach systemically I'd only recommend for women.

BUT a topical DHT conversion inhibitor shows lots of promise. I saw a study that showed a 2% green tea cream reduced oil production by 60% over 8 weeks in 20 men. Unfortunately things like this are still in the testing phase.

I think ultimately this is how we will treat oily skin in the future, it's just a matter of clearing the pharmacuetical red tape.

I look forward to reading your next posts. Thanks

Edited by CBIOT13, 05 March 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Omnivium]

1. Androgens Cause Sebum Production

 

My first post will be about this study, the androgen control of sebum production. It studied people with "complete androgen insensitivity", male pseudohermaphrodites with 5AR deficiency and decreased DHT, and males given finasteride, a 5AR inhibitor. Androgen insensitive subjects had no detectable sebum, just like young children. The pseudohermaphrodites with 5AR deficiency and decreased DHT had the normal amount of sebum production. The males given finasteride decreased their DHT, but had the same amount of sebum as before they started taking it. This study showed that androgens are the direct cause of sebum production, but decreasing DHT doesn't necessarily decrease sebum production below normal levels. The latter might not be relevant to us people with oily skin, since our sebum production is above normal. But the important part is the former, that androgens are the cause of sebum. They proposed that since decreasing DHT did not decrease sebum production, the sebaceous glands could be overly sensitive to DHT, or that other androgens could compensate for the lack of DHT and still cause sebum production.

 

After writing that it seems pretty obvious, but I guess it's good to establish a foundation for my later posts and get everyone reading this on the same page, plus that part about DHT was interesting.

Edited by Omnivium, 27 February 2013 - 04:19 AM.

[Omnivium]

2. Accutane Decreases Sebocyte Proliferation and Differentiation

 

It is not known how Accutane does what it does, but we can find out what it does. From this study, we find that Accutane decreases sebocyte(sebaceous gland cell) proliferation and differentiation. Proliferation is cell growth, and differentiation is cell specialization. Less cell growth means less sebocytes. Less specialization means less lipid accumulation and smaller sebocyte size. So while on Accutane you have less, smaller, and less specialized sebaceous gland cells. This makes you lose 80% of the ability to produce DHT in the skin. Accutane also reduces DHT in the blood, but has no affect on gonadal or adrenal function. So Accutane decreases DHT in the blood, but it greatly reduces DHT formed in the skin, by decreasing sebocyte proliferation and differentiation. From this information, I think DHT formed in the skin is the main cause of oil production, not DHT circulating around your body.

Edited by Omnivium, 27 February 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[Omnivium]

3. Oral Spironolactone Decreases Free Androgens and Blocks Androgen Receptors

 

 

I'll start by saying that spiro blocks androgen production, blocks androgens from binding to their receptors, reduces free androgens, increases free estrogen, and can cause gynecomastia in males. All of those are bad for us guys, so guys should not take this orally.

 

But I want to know exactly how it decreases sebum, aside from the obvious reducing androgens. After some research, I found that spiro taken orally literally just blocks androgens from binding to androgen receptors in the sebaceous glands. It competes with androgens, meaning they are both trying to bind to the same receptors. Then when spiro binds to the receptors, androgens are blocked. So when you have less free androgens in circulation, and the ones that are left have to compete just to bind to receptors, you get a lot less androgens binding to sebaceous gland receptors. Which means you will have less sebaceous gland growth and less sebum production.

 

The difference between Accutane and spiro in the sebaceous glands is Accutane actually triggers the glands to stop growing and producing oil, while spiro blocks the androgens that would trigger sebaceous gland growth and sebum production. The end result is the same: smaller sebaceous glands and less sebum.

 

Can guys take topical spiro? This study found that males who used spiro topically had no detectable reduction in hormones, but the study only lasted 72 hours. In this study, 6 males applied it topically twice daily for a month without side effects. I couldn't find much else, but it is at least better than taking it orally if you are male. I did manage to find this article that said topical tea tree oil and lavender are associated with gynecomastia due to their estrogenic and anti-androgenic properties. 

 

I don't know how effective it would be topically. I couldn't find much about it, other than it stinks lol. It might be worth looking into, but don't get your hopes up. It's used for hair loss if you want to look it up.

Edited by Omnivium, 01 March 2013 - 02:00 AM.

[FredTheBelgian]

Yeah and becoming a woman will stop sebum and male pattern baldness. Those treatments are useless for men.

Edited by FredTheBelgian, 01 March 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Omnivium]

Yeah and becoming a woman will stop sebum and male pattern baldness. Those treatments are useless for men.

 

Not quite sure what you mean. Women can have have excess sebum too, and I already said guys shouldn't take spiro orally. But if they did, it wouldn't be useless. It would reduce sebum, but also cause unwanted side effects.

[CBIOT13]

I've got some reading material for you guys. This is the report from a 2010 study that used a 3% green tea cream on the faces of testers for 8 weeks. By week 8 they showed ON AVERAGE a 60% decrease in sebum production. That is absolutely incredible. The sample size was very small, 10 men, but with results that dramatic there must be some correlation.

 

This is the initial study in which they looked at delivery vehicles for the cream http://www.academicj...hmood et al.pdf

 

Here's the actual report showing the sebum reduction (yes, its long but it works)

https://docs.google....qjONqGQkiuyVyzQ

 

 

It's clearly because the EGCG (and others) inhibited DHT conversion in the skin. I've been thinking about trying to replicate this study with actual green tea, but the fact that fresh brewed green tea "spoils" within 8-12 hours makes it very impractical, as you'd have to make fresh tea everyday. I say it spoils because studies have shown then when fresh brewed green tea is exposed to air, the catechins chemically break down, and 8 hours later you could have around a 60% decrease from the fresh brewed version.

 

But, like they did in the study, using a green tea extract (liquid) skirts around this problem (the study basically used alcohol to create fresh extract). The extracts are generally stable, and easily mixed into other mediums. 

 

Green Tea Extract can be very expensive, especially if you want organic or caffeine free, so once I'm able to buy some I will (currently a broke college student LOL). I plan to make a 5% green tea solution (stronger than the study to account for the less pure/fresh source of green tea available to me AND the fact that I will not be using an emulsifier or wax as they did, thus decreasing the amount of solution/cream I can actually apply to my face)

 

And no worries Fred, this inhibits DHT conversion but should NOT increase estrogenic activity when used topically. 

Edited by CBIOT13, 05 March 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Binga]

Look into topical vitamin b5 and b3/niacinamide. Both helps reduce sebum excretion rate.

[CBIOT13]

Look into topical vitamin b5 and b3/niacinamide. Both helps reduce sebum excretion rate.

 

 

Have any studies showing this? I've heard there really is only a difference in oil control if you megadose on specific B vitamins. Which yes, will work, but overtime you will develop MUCH bigger problems to worry about like purple urine, destroyed kidneys, or tremendous, constant fatigue. Topically I doubt they do much for hormone related oily skin. 

Edited by CBIOT13, 05 March 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[Omnivium]

I've got some reading material for you guys. This is the report from a 2010 study that used a 3% green tea cream on the faces of testers for 8 weeks. By week 8 they showed ON AVERAGE a 60% decrease in sebum production. That is absolutely incredible. The sample size was very small, 10 men, but with results that dramatic there must be some correlation.

 

This is the initial study in which they looked at delivery vehicles for the cream http://www.academicj...hmood et al.pdf

 

Here's the actual report showing the sebum reduction (yes, its long but it works)

https://docs.google....qjONqGQkiuyVyzQ

 

 

It's clearly because the EGCG (and others) inhibited DHT conversion in the skin. I've been thinking about trying to replicate this study with actual green tea, but the fact that fresh brewed green tea "spoils" within 8-12 hours makes it very impractical, as you'd have to make fresh tea everyday. I say it spoils because studies have shown then when fresh brewed green tea is exposed to air, the catechins chemically break down, and 8 hours later you could have around a 60% decrease from the fresh brewed version.

 

But, like they did in the study, using a green tea extract (liquid) skirts around this problem (the study basically used alcohol to create fresh extract). The extracts are generally stable, and easily mixed into other mediums. 

 

Green Tea Extract can be very expensive, especially if you want organic or caffeine free, so once I'm able to buy some I will (currently a broke college student LOL). I plan to make a 5% green tea solution (stronger than the study to account for the less pure/fresh source of green tea available to me AND the fact that I will not be using an emulsifier or wax as they did, thus decreasing the amount of solution/cream I can actually apply to my face)

 

And no worries Fred, this inhibits DHT conversion but should NOT increase estrogenic activity when used topically. 

 

I'll be interested to see how that works out. Inhibiting DHT conversion in the skin sounds like a possible way to reduce oil from what I've read so far.

 

 

 

Look into topical vitamin b5 and b3/niacinamide. Both helps reduce sebum excretion rate.

 

Are there any threads with testimonials on this? How well does it work for you? And do you know how much of it ends up in your bloodstream?

Edited by Omnivium, 06 March 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Binga]

I've got some reading material for you guys. This is the report from a 2010 study that used a 3% green tea cream on the faces of testers for 8 weeks. By week 8 they showed ON AVERAGE a 60% decrease in sebum production. That is absolutely incredible. The sample size was very small, 10 men, but with results that dramatic there must be some correlation.

 

This is the initial study in which they looked at delivery vehicles for the cream http://www.academicj...hmood et al.pdf

 

Here's the actual report showing the sebum reduction (yes, its long but it works)

https://docs.google....qjONqGQkiuyVyzQ

 

 

It's clearly because the EGCG (and others) inhibited DHT conversion in the skin. I've been thinking about trying to replicate this study with actual green tea, but the fact that fresh brewed green tea "spoils" within 8-12 hours makes it very impractical, as you'd have to make fresh tea everyday. I say it spoils because studies have shown then when fresh brewed green tea is exposed to air, the catechins chemically break down, and 8 hours later you could have around a 60% decrease from the fresh brewed version.

 

But, like they did in the study, using a green tea extract (liquid) skirts around this problem (the study basically used alcohol to create fresh extract). The extracts are generally stable, and easily mixed into other mediums. 

 

Green Tea Extract can be very expensive, especially if you want organic or caffeine free, so once I'm able to buy some I will (currently a broke college student LOL). I plan to make a 5% green tea solution (stronger than the study to account for the less pure/fresh source of green tea available to me AND the fact that I will not be using an emulsifier or wax as they did, thus decreasing the amount of solution/cream I can actually apply to my face)

 

And no worries Fred, this inhibits DHT conversion but should NOT increase estrogenic activity when used topically. 

 

I'll be interested to see how that works out. Inhibiting DHT conversion in the skin sounds like a possible way to reduce oil from what I've read so far.

 

 

 

>Look into topical vitamin b5 and b3/niacinamide. Both helps reduce sebum excretion rate.

 

Are there any threads with testimonials on this? How well does it work for you? And do you know how much of it ends up in your bloodstream?

 

 

 

I've got some reading material for you guys. This is the report from a 2010 study that used a 3% green tea cream on the faces of testers for 8 weeks. By week 8 they showed ON AVERAGE a 60% decrease in sebum production. That is absolutely incredible. The sample size was very small, 10 men, but with results that dramatic there must be some correlation.

 

This is the initial study in which they looked at delivery vehicles for the cream http://www.academicj...hmood et al.pdf

 

Here's the actual report showing the sebum reduction (yes, its long but it works)

https://docs.google....qjONqGQkiuyVyzQ

 

 

It's clearly because the EGCG (and others) inhibited DHT conversion in the skin. I've been thinking about trying to replicate this study with actual green tea, but the fact that fresh brewed green tea "spoils" within 8-12 hours makes it very impractical, as you'd have to make fresh tea everyday. I say it spoils because studies have shown then when fresh brewed green tea is exposed to air, the catechins chemically break down, and 8 hours later you could have around a 60% decrease from the fresh brewed version.

 

But, like they did in the study, using a green tea extract (liquid) skirts around this problem (the study basically used alcohol to create fresh extract). The extracts are generally stable, and easily mixed into other mediums. 

 

Green Tea Extract can be very expensive, especially if you want organic or caffeine free, so once I'm able to buy some I will (currently a broke college student LOL). I plan to make a 5% green tea solution (stronger than the study to account for the less pure/fresh source of green tea available to me AND the fact that I will not be using an emulsifier or wax as they did, thus decreasing the amount of solution/cream I can actually apply to my face)

 

And no worries Fred, this inhibits DHT conversion but should NOT increase estrogenic activity when used topically. 

 

I'll be interested to see how that works out. Inhibiting DHT conversion in the skin sounds like a possible way to reduce oil from what I've read so far.

 

 

 

>Look into topical vitamin b5 and b3/niacinamide. Both helps reduce sebum excretion rate.

 

Are there any threads with testimonials on this? How well does it work for you? And do you know how much of it ends up in your bloodstream?

 

http://www.acne.org/...e/#entry3320780

 

I use skinceuticals b5 serum and the result is quite good. Not sure if its going to work for severe acne. 

[CBIOT13]

What result is quite good? Are you confident saying that the b5 serum, and that alone, has decreased oil production?

 

Beyond that one poster that started a thread about it, I cannot find any other instance of that decreasing oil production.

 

If anything, the serum could simply have huge amounts of B5 in it, which is being absorbed through skin into the bloodstream. And you really have to be careful with taking specific b vitamins. They are proven to help clear up skin high does, BUT it has also been shown that supplementing with a specific B5 vitamin over long periods of time causes deficiencies with other B vitamins by messing with the absorption rates.

 

If it works for you, fantastic. But I don't think it will work consistently and safely for the majority of people afflicted with oily skin.

[Binga]

What result is quite good? Are you confident saying that the b5 serum, and that alone, has decreased oil production?

 

Beyond that one poster that started a thread about it, I cannot find any other instance of that decreasing oil production.

 

If anything, the serum could simply have huge amounts of B5 in it, which is being absorbed through skin into the bloodstream. And you really have to be careful with taking specific b vitamins. They are proven to help clear up skin high does, BUT it has also been shown that supplementing with a specific B5 vitamin over long periods of time causes deficiencies with other B vitamins by messing with the absorption rates.

 

If it works for you, fantastic. But I don't think it will work consistently and safely for the majority of people afflicted with oily skin.

 

 

What result is quite good? Are you confident saying that the b5 serum, and that alone, has decreased oil production?

 

Beyond that one poster that started a thread about it, I cannot find any other instance of that decreasing oil production.

 

If anything, the serum could simply have huge amounts of B5 in it, which is being absorbed through skin into the bloodstream. And you really have to be careful with taking specific b vitamins. They are proven to help clear up skin high does, BUT it has also been shown that supplementing with a specific B5 vitamin over long periods of time causes deficiencies with other B vitamins by messing with the absorption rates.

 

If it works for you, fantastic. But I don't think it will work consistently and safely for the majority of people afflicted with oily skin.

U can get a sample skinceuticals b5 serum from ebay and see if it works for you. Use it with a nicinamide moisturizer like cerave or babyface skin care and zinc sun screen.

[CBIOT13]

Liquid Green Tea Extract on the way. 5% GTE Trial starting in roughly 2 weeks.

 

It was a little trouble finding the polyphenol amount per volume, but after getting that and doing the math (mostly finding polyphenol content per application used in the study; just a ton of unit conversions) it should be fairly simple to get enough GTE on my skin (with a cotton ball) to hit the target amount of EGCG per application. The biggest DHT conversion inhibitor in the GTE is the EGCG, and once I have the total polyphenol amount the EGCG content is simply about 60% of that.  I am going to be overshooting the target amount by a little to account for any impurities in the extract or incorrect assumptions I made in my calculations. I will not be using Sebutape to measure oil production, as any reduction that I deem noticeable will be significant enough for me, and would be cause for further testing.  

 

In theory this should work. Unfortunately that doesn't mean much, as anyone that has done research will tell you. There's so many factors at play here. My biggest concern is that I will not be able to get my skin to absorb enough of the GTE solution. GTE is water soluble, and as far as your skin is concerned fat(lipid) soluble compounds tend to be absorbed the best. One option here is to mix a little bit of alcohol into the solution to make it absorb better (alcohol is generally fat soluble), but this may dry out my skin MOISTURE WISE, not for oil production (For Bryan, he corrected me on this before), and therefore throw off the experiment slightly. So for now I plan to just use water as the delivery vehicle.

 

I'll post back around the 4 week mark with results; anything important and I'll make a new thread so as not to hijack yours, Omnivium.

Edited by CBIOT13, 08 March 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Omnivium]

I actually like that you're posting in my thread. It's less work I have to do lol. Plus I'm really interested to see how the topical green tea works out.

[CBIOT13]

I believe I have another person on board with the GTE experiment. We'll update with any results.

[mikito]

Please, keep updating about the green tea experiment or whatever experiment in order to decrease sebum, but I think if you have sebum tape to measure the oil, woud be more conclusive.

[CBIOT13]

If I need sebum tape to measure the difference, then it's not worth the trouble to actually use the GTE. I'm looking for significant results, not minute changes.

[Jofo]

I'm doing the GTE experiment along with CBIOT13. I'm using blotting sheets to determine the amount of oil I'm producing. This is what I did when I experimented with peppermint oil last year. If anyone else wants to join in on the experiment, please do. I think testing topical anti-androgens is a very worthwhile endeavor.

 

Sorry, not trying to sidetrack your thread, Omnivium. I just wanted to let people know that I'm using GTE as well.