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#41 MissSac17

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:58 AM

Day 23 (week 3) Spiro 25mg

 

Morning guys! How is everyone today then? The weather is absolutely rubbish over here today, I was going to go for a lovely jog but it has unfortunately been postponed.

So today I'm feeling not too bad but not too great either. I actually had a night out the other day to celebrate a friends 21st birthday, I drank a bit much more alcohol than planned (why do I always do that??) and was extremely hungover yesterday. I tend to make bad food choices when I feel like that (thankfully I only feel like that probably once or twice a month) but I ate bread man, BREAD. God.

 

So I am taking this as a new day and trying to forget about it, fair enough it happend, back to reality. The coming weekend I have made the conscious decision of re-newing my gym membership and starting that up again - I had to take time off with an injury I had suffered. Im excited about starting swimming again though, it has literally been months since I swam! I do work-out almost everyday, well Im active anyway. I try to walk almost everywhere, do work-out dvd's like yoga /pilates, this cardio thing called Turbo Jam - its actually American - which involves alot of kickboxing moves. I tend to make up my own type of workouts since I have equipment at home like my weights and things (I favour weights over everything since they are EXTREMELY beneficial to women). I try to do something everyday anyway.

I actually straightened my hair the other day and have noticed that my hair is fine, totally fine and have not noticed any less hair falling out like what I was at the beginning of taking Spiro. I must have just been paraniod. My thirst isn't even as bad and my urinating os not too drastic either - am I becoming like used to it or something? Is that even possible? Does your boddy accustom to it?

The large spots I had about a week ago are still there but not nearly as bad as when they had appeared, mostly just papule type marks, they are also alot smaller. My period still has NOT appeared it is now 5 days LATE. I hate it when it is late. They are so frigging irregular.

Another good thing I have noticed is I had aalot of small, folliculitis type spots on my back, mostly the upper back and on my chest however the ones on my back have SIGNIFICANTLY cleared, like they aint there at all...it is smooth skin now and I only have about 5-6 tiny tiny spots (skin-couloured). My chest has improved alot too.


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0OHX_PA25Ok


Edited by misssac17, 07 March 2013 - 06:00 AM.


#42 kelseylee

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:38 PM

Hey just wanted to add to this whole thing...for missssac17, I have the same thing with non inflamed bumps all over my forehead and parts of rest of my face. and blackheads. The spiro should really really help with preventing more of these and hopefully get rid of all inflamed zits, but for those non inflamed bumps that are already there the best thing I have found is black soap. Seriously it like draws all clogged pores out. Just wanted to mention this cuz you said you're only cleansing with water, which is loads better than chemical crap or just ineffective facewash (even nice aveda stuff I was using wasn't doing anything or just making my skin red). But black soap actually gets rid of those bumps that are already there that im guessing you've had for a while, as I've had mine for months and was self-extracting cuz I literally could not get rid of them any other way. after extracting they would just refill, fun. SA (salycilic acid) helps too if applied religiously but just wanted to help you with those exciting bumps/blackheads cuz even if you get the hormonal acne under control your existing pores are still clogged and obviously u want to free them up. For me, cutting out dairy (took a food allergy test and I had a medium allergy to ever kind of dairy which was pretty high compared to basically no allergy for other foods) so food tests can be really helpful too, I would have had no idea dairy was impacting me that much if I had not seen it on a friggin graph. food allergies can reallllllly exacerbate hormonal acne. but yeah also mononessa (bcp) has helped too.



#43 kelseylee

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:35 PM

I also have pics if you would like to see the current state o' the bumps and the drawing out process. I was diagnosed w/pcos a month ago after feeling really really messed up and weird after going off bcps 8 months ago, (not to mention 0 periods and the worst acne of my life). i too am normal weight (5'8, 138 lbs) but three years of inactivity after a lifetime of being an athlete... + a bad break up... + unlimited access to cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee for way too long (where I worked)... led me to elevated testosterone, cholesterol and a pcos diagnosis cry.gif. It's pretty much gone now (i've been working out like two hours a day) but if you guys have any question/ want to share things you've learned.... lemme know.


Edited by kelseylee, 08 March 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#44 skindeepstory

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:15 PM

I also have pics if you would like to see the current state o' the bumps and the drawing out process. I was diagnosed w/pcos a month ago after feeling really really messed up and weird after going off bcps 8 months ago, (not to mention 0 periods and the worst acne of my life). i too am normal weight (5'8, 138 lbs) but three years of inactivity after a lifetime of being an athlete... + a bad break up... + unlimited access to cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee for way too long (where I worked)... led me to elevated testosterone, cholesterol and a pcos diagnosis cry.gif. It's pretty much gone now (i've been working out like two hours a day) but if you guys have any question/ want to share things you've learned.... lemme know.

 

Hi Kelsey!

 

Your story sounds a lot like mine.  I had some PCOS symptoms on and off since puberty, but it wasn't until I quite birth control that my PCOS symptoms came out full force.  I am normal weight 5'3" 120 pounds.  I've always been conscious of eating right and exercising but the longer I was off the BCP the more tired I became, the less I exercised, and the more I started craving carbs.  I gained a bit of weight (nothing extreme, but it was a battle to keep it down) and started experiencing the worst acne of my life (and I've had some BAD acne in my time) as well as a bit of hirsuitism.  I also had no periods for 8 months and wasn't ovulating at all.  This was exacerbated by some really hard times - boss from hell, lost my job, had to move in with my parents, troubled relationship, etc. Finally I got my PCOS diagnosis and it all made sense.

 

I just thought I'd share because your story really sounded a lot like mine.  I love your natural approach and I too keep it as pseudo holistic as possible.  A bit of eastern meets western medicine combined with some good old common sense.

 

Wishing you all the best on your PCOS journey and thank you for sharing your story!

 

Sierra

skindeepstory.wordpress.com


Edited by skindeepstory, 08 March 2013 - 08:15 PM.


#45 kelseylee

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:18 PM

Hi Skindeep! Wow this was so great to hear from you--I read back further on this thread what you've posted and I commend you for your patience: its so not easy. But it seems like you guys have the hard first part of starting spiro under your belt.

 

I actually initially went off bc cuz I thought I would have more energy to get back in shape; needless to say my understanding of hormones is a bit more advanced now. This is exactly what happened to me "but the longer I was off the BCP the more tired I became, the less I exercised, and the more I started craving carbs." I felt off in other ways too--like I would be cold all the time but really craving cold drinks. I even felt more masculine. My body did not like the hormone imbalance.

 

My jaw literally dropped when I got my blood results back, because we didn't know exactly what was wrong. I had suspected pcos just from reading randomn boards on here, but nothing like seeing your testosterone elevated to 2x the high end of normal for women (if the range is like 30-100, mine was 200). I went on bcp's immediately after seeing a great, very pro-bc gynocolegist and also felt better basically immediately. I'm kind of curious what my levels are now, & how many ovulation cycles it takes to adjust hormones. This might be the first time in my life I'm excited for menstruating...probably about equivalent to when I was 12.

 

That's interesting to me that being vegan did not help you at all, because I guess we've seen the obsession with dairy contributing to acne more than a few times. that just shows you how complicated these things can get. I really think that when the hormones get out of balance, it's a lot harder to push them back to equilibrium without some hormonal intervention (bcp's, spiro). For me, bcp's helped give me the energy to exercise again. What you said about a psuedo holistic approach summarized my outlook perfectly smile.png. I've been seeing a naturopath, the gynocologist and an awesome holistic counselor. Some of the naturopaths suggestions have me scratching my head a little--if I ate as many vegetables and seeds as she recommends I would spend half the day chewing and grocery shopping. I'm at the point where I feel guilty eating a smoothie with a banana cuz of "all the sugar". 

 

Oh and there's definitely an interesting genetic/environmental component going on with pcos. I can see now how this developed for me, I never had a problem as a teenager cuz I was so thin/active and then went straight on bcp's, but as soon as i started inhaling sugar in my 20s, I was unknowingly playing with fire. My mom has had acne her whole life, she even still has some after menopause, so yeah. I think she might have a dairy issue and not know as well. It's interesting that we often crave the foods contributing to our issues like sugar and dairy. Doesn't the body know better? smile.png Lastly, have you spent any time on soulcysters? The section about thincysters just made me feel kinda bad. 


Edited by kelseylee, 09 March 2013 - 11:36 PM.


#46 MissSac17

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:43 AM

 three years of inactivity after a lifetime of being an athlete... + a bad break up... + unlimited access to cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffeeI also have pics if you would like to see the current state o' the bumps and the drawing out process. I was diagnosed w/pcos a month ago after feeling really really messed up and weird after going off bcps 8 months ago, (not to mention 0 periods and the worst acne of my life). i too am normal weight (5'8, 138 lbs) but three years of inactivity after a lifetime of being an athlete... + a bad break up... + unlimited access to cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee for way too long (where I worked)... led me to elevated testosterone, cholesterol and a pcos diagnosis cry.gif. It's pretty much gone now (i've been working out like two hours a day) but if you guys have any question/ want to share things you've learned.... lemme know.


Hey Kelseylee! Thankyou so so so much for relplying to my log. I really really appreciate it. That would be great to actually see some pictures too, if thats alright with you.

I have heard of black soap, but never used it; your right though I do literally only use water, I believe Im actually scared to try any kind of cleanser incase it breaks me out :/ I totally understand that I need to unclog them and bring them out to let them heal, but theres so many its unbelievable and it is mostly on my foreahead!

I also cannot belive that the "three years of inactivity after a lifetime of being an athlete... + a bad break up... + unlimited access to cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee" you mentioned contributed to the increase in testosterone. Im glad that you did get the PCOS diagnosis so at least you knew how to treat it. My levels were of "normal" range but I found out later that actually my androgen levels are just a bit higher. I really do hope the spiro works for me.  I was actually on BCP's for 4 and a bit years. I came off them at 19 (Dianette) and my sin was fine until 18 months later, all hell broke loose.

Also its great that your seeing many holistic people, I had never heard of a "naturopath" before reading here on this site, I don't know if we get them in Scotland. With regards to the whole dairy thing, I do eat a limited dairy diet but I do have a coffee or a tea once per day and take milk in that (full fat). I notice too when I eat too much sugar my skin seems to flar up a little bit.



#47 kelseylee

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

It’s really awesome to have this log to update on, cuz even tho I’m not on spiro I feel like I’m going through a lot of the same things u guys are.

 

Ha, so as far as the cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee increasing testosterone—it’s kind of a few degrees of separation thing but there actually is a biological link in the way it played out. But don’t fear—if you put a cupcake in your mouth you’re not going to directly knock your testosterone through the roof…doesn’t work quite like that. It takes a lot more time and basically results when your body does not burn the sugar that you are consuming. So basically, when you’re consuming really high sugar things often, and especially not being super active (I was working on my feet eight hours a day but unfortunately that’s not quite enough), there’s an increased risk of building up insulin in the blood, because that’s what (unused) sugar is converted into. Insulin is actually a hormone. So now you see the start of the hormonal issues. Blood sugar will rise over time as well if this is happening. I wasn’t even probably consuming that many more calories than I did previously, its just that a lot more of them were coming from simple sugars (literal sugar and white flour based things). I had never paid that much attention to nutrition cuz I’d always been really healthy, so I didn’t realize this change in eating was having these kind of effects. Put simply: I used to exercise a lot, and eat a loss sugar, then I stopped exercising, and like doubled or tripled my sugar intake.

 

Anyway, most things about pcos say it takes place usually as a (build up) result of insulin resistance.  I don’t want to box anyone in and say this is the case for all ppl, some ppl might have such a strong genetic component that no matter what they do they wind up with the symptoms…but for a lot of girls, like myself, mine was definitely a combination of nature vs nurture, in that I helped pull the trigger (kind of  dislike that expression but it works). But so back to the hormones, the insulin literally builds up in your blood, and your body isn’t able to use all of it for energy, cuz it’s in excess, and then the free insulin ends up working on your other hormones. So basically being on bcp’s, like others have experienced, can be kind of a cover for a lot of pcos symptoms. The bomb doesn’t go off until you stop taking the pills, because basically you’ve been supplementing with “good” hormones (estrogen and progesterone) and when you pull those out of the equation, the testosterone is allowed to shoot upwards because it doesn’t have those female hormones competing for dominance in the mix anymore.  

 

From here you’re basically just screwed because the testosterone becomes dominate very fast. It sends signals to the pituitary gland in complicated ways that I don’t know about which basically creates more testosterone. You stop ovulating etc. Your estrogen/progesterone get very very low. And like skindeep mentioned, you crave carbs really bad. Sugar and bread basically. These things do, esp in a hormonally unstable environment, increase testosterone as well. I hope I am not writing too much here so maybe I’ll bring it to a close but there is a really loose interpretation of how I’ve gleened things to work after speaking to the gynocolegist and hitting up Wikipedia a number of times (as well as reading a fair amount of ‘questionable’ science on the interweb J). If you have anything to correct, add, or personal experiences let me know. Oh and you mentioned it took 18 months after bcp’s for your androgens to get elevated, so that sounds like it means you’re body had a lot easier time fighting to maintain the estrogen and progesterone as dominate, but as time progressed, the androgen slowly crept up a little. I don’t think doctors are quite alarmist enough about elevated androgens because a lot of women, especially those dealing with acne, probably have an androgen sensitivity issue. Like, being on the low end of the testosterone spectrum is probably what your body prefers, so for you, or whoever, even slightly elevated androgens are a problem, even though you fall within the “normal” range. 

 

 

  ok for all my tech saviness I can't figure out the best way to upload a photo.  The image button didn't work.


Edited by kelseylee, 10 March 2013 - 03:34 PM.


#48 kelseylee

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

and hey sorry i didn't answer too many of your q's--too busy trying to be a scientist. but here's what you might want to try. cut out all dairy, even ff milk, for a week. or even four days. I literally lost 6 lbs of water weight within two days of cutting out dairy because of the inflammation it was causing. if you give your body that break, and test out how you feel, you can actually see whether its impacting you, which it might not be. but i saw mine on a test, so i knew. the best thing about cutting it out is that when you add it back in, your body reacts a lot better to it cuz it got that break.

 

Also--i did cut out coffee. that was hard, but it was causing me anxiety so i did it. i notice you drink coffee, have you tried black tea? if you drink two cups its almost as much caffeine as coffee but the buzz it way less harsh or something. I use soy creamer in black tea. I hope u guys have good alternate creamers there, helps you forget about dairy. I would imagine scotland has naturopaths but i had the best luck with a great gynocolegist, they're rare, but like gold.



#49 MissSac17

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:16 AM

Day 27 of 25mg Spiro (Week 3)

Tomorrow will be the beginning of week 4! Wow, I can't believe how fast that feels.

I don't really know how I feel today, I'm quite tired mentally and physically and this is due to hardly ANY sleep over the weekend again due to work. I'm fed up of this whole insomniac weekends, I can't keep this up so I'm thinking of going to the doctors soon about it. I did get a small surprise yesterday when my mum told me her Polish friend Lukas had said to her, "Stacey is looking much better" and my mum had asked, "what do you mean, better?" and he apparantly put his hand to his face and smiled and said "much better" - so I think that's a compliment right?

Well I sure don't as hell feel there is a significant difference, but mind you I did not see him for a good few weeks before Saturday there. I have accumulated a myriad of small spots along my right cheek next to my nose and also on my forehead. My period is STILL late and is now 1 week and 2 days late. I can't stress enough how much this period makes me crave sugar, I am trying my best to avoid it but it is hard, I have had a chocolate bar everyday for the past 5 days. And I feel reeeeeally bad about it. Isn't Spiro ment to help regulate hormones? Or is that if you take it alongside a BCP?

Anyway, side effect wise nothing really new to report. Obviously the trouble in sleeping is apparant but that is only before a shift at work, and its mainly anxiety induced. I am taking an ant-depressant and I have read somewhere online that Spiro can infact cancel out the effects of these, but I don't know how true that is.

I am also considering trying dairy free again, I know I can do it since the only dairy I really get is milk in my tea/coffee and the occasional yoghurt, however I will tell you this now, whenever I eat yoghurt for some reason my stomach gurgles? This definately isn't a good thing is it?

Anyway I shall leave you the now, hope you are all keeping well!



#50 MissSac17

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:33 AM



It’s really awesome to have this log to update on, cuz even tho I’m not on spiro I feel like I’m going through a lot of the same things u guys are.

 

Ha, so as far as the cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee increasing testosterone—it’s kind of a few degrees of separation thing but there actually is a biological link in the way it played out. But don’t fear—if you put a cupcake in your mouth you’re not going to directly knock your testosterone through the roof…doesn’t work quite like that. It takes a lot more time and basically results when your body does not burn the sugar that you are consuming. So basically, when you’re consuming really high sugar things often, and especially not being super active (I was working on my feet eight hours a day but unfortunately that’s not quite enough), there’s an increased risk of building up insulin in the blood, because that’s what (unused) sugar is converted into. Insulin is actually a hormone. So now you see the start of the hormonal issues. Blood sugar will rise over time as well if this is happening. I wasn’t even probably consuming that many more calories than I did previously, its just that a lot more of them were coming from simple sugars (literal sugar and white flour based things). I had never paid that much attention to nutrition cuz I’d always been really healthy, so I didn’t realize this change in eating was having these kind of effects. Put simply: I used to exercise a lot, and eat a loss sugar, then I stopped exercising, and like doubled or tripled my sugar intake.

 

Anyway, most things about pcos say it takes place usually as a (build up) result of insulin resistance.  I don’t want to box anyone in and say this is the case for all ppl, some ppl might have such a strong genetic component that no matter what they do they wind up with the symptoms…but for a lot of girls, like myself, mine was definitely a combination of nature vs nurture, in that I helped pull the trigger (kind of  dislike that expression but it works). But so back to the hormones, the insulin literally builds up in your blood, and your body isn’t able to use all of it for energy, cuz it’s in excess, and then the free insulin ends up working on your other hormones. So basically being on bcp’s, like others have experienced, can be kind of a cover for a lot of pcos symptoms. The bomb doesn’t go off until you stop taking the pills, because basically you’ve been supplementing with “good” hormones (estrogen and progesterone) and when you pull those out of the equation, the testosterone is allowed to shoot upwards because it doesn’t have those female hormones competing for dominance in the mix anymore.  

 

From here you’re basically just screwed because the testosterone becomes dominate very fast. It sends signals to the pituitary gland in complicated ways that I don’t know about which basically creates more testosterone. You stop ovulating etc. Your estrogen/progesterone get very very low. And like skindeep mentioned, you crave carbs really bad. Sugar and bread basically. These things do, esp in a hormonally unstable environment, increase testosterone as well. I hope I am not writing too much here so maybe I’ll bring it to a close but there is a really loose interpretation of how I’ve gleened things to work after speaking to the gynocolegist and hitting up Wikipedia a number of times (as well as reading a fair amount of ‘questionable’ science on the interweb J). If you have anything to correct, add, or personal experiences let me know. Oh and you mentioned it took 18 months after bcp’s for your androgens to get elevated, so that sounds like it means you’re body had a lot easier time fighting to maintain the estrogen and progesterone as dominate, but as time progressed, the androgen slowly crept up a little. I don’t think doctors are quite alarmist enough about elevated androgens because a lot of women, especially those dealing with acne, probably have an androgen sensitivity issue. Like, being on the low end of the testosterone spectrum is probably what your body prefers, so for you, or whoever, even slightly elevated androgens are a problem, even though you fall within the “normal” range. 

 

 

  ok for all my tech saviness I can't figure out the best way to upload a photo.  The image button didn't work.

 

 

and hey sorry i didn't answer too many of your q's--too busy trying to be a scientist. but here's what you might want to try. cut out all dairy, even ff milk, for a week. or even four days. I literally lost 6 lbs of water weight within two days of cutting out dairy because of the inflammation it was causing. if you give your body that break, and test out how you feel, you can actually see whether its impacting you, which it might not be. but i saw mine on a test, so i knew. the best thing about cutting it out is that when you add it back in, your body reacts a lot better to it cuz it got that break.

 

Also--i did cut out coffee. that was hard, but it was causing me anxiety so i did it. i notice you drink coffee, have you tried black tea? if you drink two cups its almost as much caffeine as coffee but the buzz it way less harsh or something. I use soy creamer in black tea. I hope u guys have good alternate creamers there, helps you forget about dairy. I would imagine scotland has naturopaths but i had the best luck with a great gynocolegist, they're rare, but like gold.



Good afternoon Kelseylee smile.png

Thankyou for all of this which you have wrote, please do not worry about writing too much honestly. You didn't! You actually made it really clear to me how the hormones work. It kinda makes sense actually how after stopping BCP's we get a surge of the testosterone hormone eventually (obviously due to the fact that we don't have the estrogen or progesterone fighting against each other anymore, is that right?) I have read about androgen sensitivity aswell and I do feel that is what I have, this would also make sense as to why, when I eat more sugar on a particular day and am not as active, I find my acne flares a little.

I wanted to add that during those 18months with clear skin and NO period I was gaining weight (Intentially) I was only just under 7stone before stopping them and ventured on a weight training programme at the gym to gain muscle weight rather than just pure fat. I actually managed to gain about 14lbs (1 stone) in a year and a half. Obviously this would have effects on my testosterone levels surely? Lifting weights? And gaining. I find it kind of hilarious that after suffering an injury in DEC2011 I had to STOP the training, and that coming APRIL2012 I had took on a more womanly figure as opposed to more leaner muscular (still the same weight though) and my period CAME BACK. Along with acne.

So have you ever took Spiro before? Also, what is your actualy regimen atm that you use for your skin?

I have tried black tea and I do actually like it. I am reeeeeally considering going dairy free again, what I am finding right now is after I eat some kind of dairy yoghurt or trifle or whatever my stomache gurgles! But I never get it when I drink some milk with my tea or coffee.


Edited by misssac17, 11 March 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#51 skindeepstory

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

It’s really awesome to have this log to update on, cuz even tho I’m not on spiro I feel like I’m going through a lot of the same things u guys are.

 

Ha, so as far as the cupcakes/ice cream/pizza/coffee increasing testosterone—it’s kind of a few degrees of separation thing but there actually is a biological link in the way it played out. But don’t fear—if you put a cupcake in your mouth you’re not going to directly knock your testosterone through the roof…doesn’t work quite like that. It takes a lot more time and basically results when your body does not burn the sugar that you are consuming. So basically, when you’re consuming really high sugar things often, and especially not being super active (I was working on my feet eight hours a day but unfortunately that’s not quite enough), there’s an increased risk of building up insulin in the blood, because that’s what (unused) sugar is converted into. Insulin is actually a hormone. So now you see the start of the hormonal issues. Blood sugar will rise over time as well if this is happening. I wasn’t even probably consuming that many more calories than I did previously, its just that a lot more of them were coming from simple sugars (literal sugar and white flour based things). I had never paid that much attention to nutrition cuz I’d always been really healthy, so I didn’t realize this change in eating was having these kind of effects. Put simply: I used to exercise a lot, and eat a loss sugar, then I stopped exercising, and like doubled or tripled my sugar intake.

 

Anyway, most things about pcos say it takes place usually as a (build up) result of insulin resistance.  I don’t want to box anyone in and say this is the case for all ppl, some ppl might have such a strong genetic component that no matter what they do they wind up with the symptoms…but for a lot of girls, like myself, mine was definitely a combination of nature vs nurture, in that I helped pull the trigger (kind of  dislike that expression but it works). But so back to the hormones, the insulin literally builds up in your blood, and your body isn’t able to use all of it for energy, cuz it’s in excess, and then the free insulin ends up working on your other hormones. So basically being on bcp’s, like others have experienced, can be kind of a cover for a lot of pcos symptoms. The bomb doesn’t go off until you stop taking the pills, because basically you’ve been supplementing with “good” hormones (estrogen and progesterone) and when you pull those out of the equation, the testosterone is allowed to shoot upwards because it doesn’t have those female hormones competing for dominance in the mix anymore.  

 

From here you’re basically just screwed because the testosterone becomes dominate very fast. It sends signals to the pituitary gland in complicated ways that I don’t know about which basically creates more testosterone. You stop ovulating etc. Your estrogen/progesterone get very very low. And like skindeep mentioned, you crave carbs really bad. Sugar and bread basically. These things do, esp in a hormonally unstable environment, increase testosterone as well. I hope I am not writing too much here so maybe I’ll bring it to a close but there is a really loose interpretation of how I’ve gleened things to work after speaking to the gynocolegist and hitting up Wikipedia a number of times (as well as reading a fair amount of ‘questionable’ science on the interweb J). If you have anything to correct, add, or personal experiences let me know. Oh and you mentioned it took 18 months after bcp’s for your androgens to get elevated, so that sounds like it means you’re body had a lot easier time fighting to maintain the estrogen and progesterone as dominate, but as time progressed, the androgen slowly crept up a little. I don’t think doctors are quite alarmist enough about elevated androgens because a lot of women, especially those dealing with acne, probably have an androgen sensitivity issue. Like, being on the low end of the testosterone spectrum is probably what your body prefers, so for you, or whoever, even slightly elevated androgens are a problem, even though you fall within the “normal” range. 

 

 

  ok for all my tech saviness I can't figure out the best way to upload a photo.  The image button didn't work.

 

This was SO interesting to read Kelsey!  Thanks for posting.  I seriously love the science part of PCOS.  Something about it makes me feel more empowered to reverse my symptoms.

 

Anyway, I wanted to add that my case doesn't exactly fall into your description.  I actually have significantly low insulin levels, completely normal (and even slightly low) testosterone levels, but low estrogen.  My doctor said that it's all a balance, so even though my testosterone is not high, it's relatively high since I have low estrogen. 

 

The more I read about PCOS, the more I realize that it comes in SO many different forms.  As my doctor described it, it's a "spectrum disorder" meaning women experience a range of symptoms from low to high, and the variables of what women experience, are innumberable.  Some of us get the unfortunate plague of acne while others just have issues with fertility (not to downplay that symptom at all!  personally, it's the one I have not emotionally dealth with yet).

 

Anyway, if you have any more insight I'd love to hear it!  

 

Sierra

skindeepstory.wordpress.com 



#52 skindeepstory

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

Hello Miss Stacey!

 

I'm just checking in.  How are you today?

 

I wanted to tell you that it's now mid week 9 on spiro and I have noticed a change in my acne.  My pimples are going away faster, they seem smaller and less inflamed.  Exciting stuff, right? 

 

I also wanted to tell you (and anyone else who reads) about something I did that really helped me emotionally this week.  First, I wrote a letter to that part of me who is always critical, telling me I'm ugly and unworthy and that my skin will never improve.  It's telling me "f--- it!" Just give up, eat a bunch of sugar, don't exercise, don't hang out with your friends, and don't strive for happiness in general.  I know, sounds harsh, but that's how I talk to myself and even worse sometimes. 

 

So I wrote basically a piece of hate mail to this voice inside that is always bringing me down.  I just let it ALL out.  I wrote things like "How dare you rob me of my God given right to happiness?!"  And "You have no right to say the things to me that you do. You are a bully!"  Etc.  There was a lot of CAPS and "!!!" involved... Then I read it, took a match, burned it, and flushed it down the toilet.  I immediately felt hugely relieved!  I didn't realize how much anger and resentment I had for this person, who really is just a part of me.  But getting it all out took a lot of weight off my shoulders.  I also plan on writing to that same critical voice again, this time sending it a love letter.

 

The next day I took myself to Sephora and the beauty expert there helped me find a really great concealer and foundation.  She spent a long time finding the perfect makeup for me and we got to talking about acne.  Her skin actually looked a lot like mine and we got into this deep conversation about all things acne related.  It was honestly fantastic to meet someone who genuinely understood exactly what I was going through and to finally just have an open conversation about it. 

 

And, the makeup is great!  It doesn't seem to clog my pores, and it covers really well.  I'm not flawless or anything, but it's the best I've looked in months!  I feel more self confident and actually take pride in dressing up again.  It's something I realize that I had sort of given up, but taking back my feminine beauty through great makeup has been really significant for me.

 

Anyway, I'm longwinded as usual, but I really wanted to share that story.  Don't forget to treat yourself to beautiful things and go ahead and get dressed up!  You don't have to wait until your skin is perfect. 

 

Sending lots of support your way!

 

Sierra

skindeepstory.wordpress.com


Edited by skindeepstory, 11 March 2013 - 03:12 PM.


#53 kelseylee

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:03 PM

Whew I clicked the wrong button and my post deleted itself, maybe this one will be more excitingsmile.png. Sierra-thats very interesting and bodes quite well for you...high insulin levels are one of the crappier parts. I am fascinated by the scientific aspect as well and feel empowered by it too...thank you for telling me that, I had kind of framed it as a spectrum in my mind, now I see it even more so. I don't think my body has a super strong ability to naturally produce that much estrogen/progesterone. But the testosterone definitely added insult to injury weeeeh.  

 

I'll have to read your guys most recent updates on see how spiro is going. My skin is alright....the black soap is definitely making the acne, how do I say this, come out through my skin. I guess you've probably read that it purges your skin. Kind of like turns the acne inside out, lol. It actually sort of looks "worse" but I don't really care because I'd rather have it doing something than hiding beneath the surface forever. Some lights are worse than others....ugh. The light at the ymca I go to is so fluorescent I pretty much ran out of the bathroom.



#54 kelseylee

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:27 PM

Misssac-

Hmmm thats interesting to me because your skin trouble began more after you started your period. Hormones are so complex. I guess even that slight elevation of testosterone when you're menstruating can brew trouble down to the skin level.

 

From what I read, exercising, even with weights, shouldn't increase your testosterone really! The only circumstances would be like if you were a professional athlete, and even then, probably not that much, or a weightlifter. If anything exercise helps hormones by putting insulin/blood sugar to use, revving your metabolism, etc. so maybe even if you had continued to exercise you would have started menstruating anyway, it's just that you had the injury and it seemed to happen as a result. The whole time I exercised I had a regular period, when I stopped bcp, and became inactive, it stopped. Did your doctor have a theory on why your period came so late?

 

My regimen: Morning, wash with water or black soap. Sometimes i'm not quite ready for the black soap in the morning so I wait till the afternoon. It's kind of intense! Either way I wash with it twice a day, and on my back too, where there's some acne (fun!). I also use salycilic acid pads once or twice a day on my face (2%) depending if I feel my skin is too irritated or not. the black soap has a very slight burn to it, but not scary like from a chemical. its made from burnt leaves so i guess its just burning plants. I use a little shae butter sometimes because that was recommended with the black soap, it's pretty greasy but I don't think it exacerbates acne at all. mostly around my eyes.

 

Ah so you've done no dairy before? I'm still doing it, its not quite as hard as I expected. Eating less fruit and chocolate is harder than no dairy. oh and your skin might be gurgling from the probiotics in yogurt if its not doing it from other dairy. which, if from the probiotics is a good or at least harmless thing :). unless it hurts bad.

 

 

ps-never done spiro. the gynocologist was adamant i try bcps before anything else. seems spiro is kind of just "extra" bcps. even some birth control has higher hormones than spiro from what I thought I saw on wiki


Edited by kelseylee, 11 March 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#55 kelseylee

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:21 AM

omg u guys. i just googled 'acne conglobata'. i feel like i need to be more grateful wow.

 

& if u guys know how to upload pics ill post em from my cellphone.



#56 MissSac17

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:42 AM


Day 28 (week4) 25mg

Hey guys I will reply to your posts soon, I just wanted to really vent. I feel so so shitty right now, like Ive just finished crying, I think I'm finished. I'm just having a really really bad day. My skin is TERRIBLE TERRIBLE TERRIBLE today - Im not even kidding. Im so fucknig sick of looking this ugly, I have clogged pores all over basically and little raised spots on the tops of my cheeks on each side, my chin is worse and my forehead IS the worst.

I had this thing today at college where we went to a High School to be ambasadors for this "Science Squad" thingy, and I went to the bathroom there - it had those horrible fluorecent lighting (the ones that seem to show EVERY imper-fucking-fection) - and honestly the state of my face is disgusting. I want to burn it off and just like re-new it or something, Im actually fed up of it. I don't know if its the Spiro or what but I used a facemask last night so it could be that, however I've never had this reaction to the facemask before.

Anyway, Im sorry to be total depressed and stuff but its only fair that I post about my bad days too. Well this is a bloody bad day. I look horrible honestly. I took pictures too so Im gonig to upload them. Hopefully it works.

 

 

 

gallery_181655_12790_114814.jpg

 

gallery_181655_12790_143694.jpg?13631096


gallery_181655_12790_42347.jpg



UGH. Just UGH. The bumps are honestly everywhere! It looks so horrible, sooo horrible. I know there must be a reason why I have acne, why WE have it..a lesson we must learn from it, but the fact that its making me feel  this THIS shitty, it really isn't worth it, not today - I just don't want this today.


Edited by misssac17, 12 March 2013 - 11:46 AM.


#57 kelseylee

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:13 PM

Hey-- agh im sorry for the shitty day...I know the feeling...esp when you have a few shit days in a row, not cool. the red marks and bumps are very surface level so look like they will not leave marks. just keep positive and try to keep anything harsh away from them since they are still in the healing phase. what antidepressant are you on? Because that can really be a big factor in this. I actually just went back on a low dose of one I was on previously, prozac. I was not enamored with the decision cuz i'd rather be on nothing, but after 10 months being off of it I had to be honest that I was not doing well with anxiety and depression. But if you find a good one for you, at the right dose, it can help a lot, esp with things like sleep. if you want to talk about that at all, i'm kind of like a non-expert expert, a lot of ppl in my family have been on them.

 

"Isn't Spiro ment to help regulate hormones? Or is that if you take it alongside a BCP?" it seems spiro should do some regulating of hormones...i just read about it on wiki and along with anti androgene properties, it has weak progesterone and indirect estrogen effects. sucks that its taking this long tho. r u not wanting to do bc again? 

 

I really think black soap might help you. I know you've probably heard of like 1000 things that "might help you" but yeah, it really takes control of those pores and dries them up. theres a great link of a thread on here i should post.http://www.acne.org/...ack-soap-works/

 

im gonna post some recipes of good things to eat when you're craving sugar cuz i have a lot of time on my hands right now..

 

 

Smoothie:

 

 

one cup coconut milk/flax milk/soy milk (I use unsweetened cuz you don't need as much sugar with banana)

one yellow banana or 1/2 banana

1/2 cup raspberries

three tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder

one or two tablespoons soy creamer or coconut cream (can get in can from grocery store)..this makes it creamier

one or two teaspoons chia seeds or finely chopped nuts to put on top for crunch

...i make that smoothie a lot and the cocoa powder provides a little caffeine. theres lots of variations of it you can make too

 

 

pancakes:

one egg

mashed yellow banana

earth balance (soy butter)

chopped nuts

 

blend the egg and mashed banana together. cook like a normal pancake in some earth balance. when finished put more earth balance and nuts on top.

 

Sigh..hope everyone is having a good day.


Edited by kelseylee, 12 March 2013 - 09:53 PM.


#58 MissSac17

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:44 AM

Hello Miss Stacey!

 

I'm just checking in.  How are you today?

 

I wanted to tell you that it's now mid week 9 on spiro and I have noticed a change in my acne.  My pimples are going away faster, they seem smaller and less inflamed.  Exciting stuff, right? 

 

I also wanted to tell you (and anyone else who reads) about something I did that really helped me emotionally this week.  First, I wrote a letter to that part of me who is always critical, telling me I'm ugly and unworthy and that my skin will never improve.  It's telling me "f--- it!" Just give up, eat a bunch of sugar, don't exercise, don't hang out with your friends, and don't strive for happiness in general.  I know, sounds harsh, but that's how I talk to myself and even worse sometimes. 

 

So I wrote basically a piece of hate mail to this voice inside that is always bringing me down.  I just let it ALL out.  I wrote things like "How dare you rob me of my God given right to happiness?!"  And "You have no right to say the things to me that you do. You are a bully!"  Etc.  There was a lot of CAPS and "!!!" involved... Then I read it, took a match, burned it, and flushed it down the toilet.  I immediately felt hugely relieved!  I didn't realize how much anger and resentment I had for this person, who really is just a part of me.  But getting it all out took a lot of weight off my shoulders.  I also plan on writing to that same critical voice again, this time sending it a love letter.

 

The next day I took myself to Sephora and the beauty expert there helped me find a really great concealer and foundation.  She spent a long time finding the perfect makeup for me and we got to talking about acne.  Her skin actually looked a lot like mine and we got into this deep conversation about all things acne related.  It was honestly fantastic to meet someone who genuinely understood exactly what I was going through and to finally just have an open conversation about it. 

 

And, the makeup is great!  It doesn't seem to clog my pores, and it covers really well.  I'm not flawless or anything, but it's the best I've looked in months!  I feel more self confident and actually take pride in dressing up again.  It's something I realize that I had sort of given up, but taking back my feminine beauty through great makeup has been really significant for me.

 

Anyway, I'm longwinded as usual, but I really wanted to share that story.  Don't forget to treat yourself to beautiful things and go ahead and get dressed up!  You don't have to wait until your skin is perfect. 

 

Sending lots of support your way!

 

Sierra

skindeepstory.wordpress.com


Hi Sierra :) Ive not been feeling very great the past couple days. My skin just seems really really irritated with something, I used a facemask a couple days ago and I awoke to a worsening of my acne, a bad worsening. But I never usually have this reaction. My skin is just not at all great atm and it is very hard to keep a brave face you know.

My forehead especially is extremely congested and it seems I have clogged pores on every pore if you know what I mean? I just wonder if it is the Spiro. Sadly, and I hate to say this but, I had my first few doubts in my mind about it working. Im trying not to think like this but it is very very hard.

Im soooooooo happy to hear you are feeling better about yourself and have even foung a good foundation to match your skin type. It must feel amazing to walk about without the thought of someone making an eye at the acne marks and things. I never wear make-up only mascara so mines is ALWAYS on show, but I just don't like the idea of wearing make-up and there is always that fear I have about it maybe making it worse.

I think I'm also gonna write a little note to that evil part of me too ;) thankyou for sharing that Sierra.

Hope you are keeping well x



Misssac-

Hmmm thats interesting to me because your skin trouble began more after you started your period. Hormones are so complex. I guess even that slight elevation of testosterone when you're menstruating can brew trouble down to the skin level.

 

From what I read, exercising, even with weights, shouldn't increase your testosterone really! The only circumstances would be like if you were a professional athlete, and even then, probably not that much, or a weightlifter. If anything exercise helps hormones by putting insulin/blood sugar to use, revving your metabolism, etc. so maybe even if you had continued to exercise you would have started menstruating anyway, it's just that you had the injury and it seemed to happen as a result. The whole time I exercised I had a regular period, when I stopped bcp, and became inactive, it stopped. Did your doctor have a theory on why your period came so late?

 

My regimen: Morning, wash with water or black soap. Sometimes i'm not quite ready for the black soap in the morning so I wait till the afternoon. It's kind of intense! Either way I wash with it twice a day, and on my back too, where there's some acne (fun!). I also use salycilic acid pads once or twice a day on my face (2%) depending if I feel my skin is too irritated or not. the black soap has a very slight burn to it, but not scary like from a chemical. its made from burnt leaves so i guess its just burning plants. I use a little shae butter sometimes because that was recommended with the black soap, it's pretty greasy but I don't think it exacerbates acne at all. mostly around my eyes.

 

Ah so you've done no dairy before? I'm still doing it, its not quite as hard as I expected. Eating less fruit and chocolate is harder than no dairy. oh and your skin might be gurgling from the probiotics in yogurt if its not doing it from other dairy. which, if from the probiotics is a good or at least harmless thing smile.png. unless it hurts bad.

 

 

ps-never done spiro. the gynocologist was adamant i try bcps before anything else. seems spiro is kind of just "extra" bcps. even some birth control has higher hormones than spiro from what I thought I saw on wiki

 

 

Hey-- agh im sorry for the shitty day...I know the feeling...esp when you have a few shit days in a row, not cool. the red marks and bumps are very surface level so look like they will not leave marks. just keep positive and try to keep anything harsh away from them since they are still in the healing phase. what antidepressant are you on? Because that can really be a big factor in this. I actually just went back on a low dose of one I was on previously, prozac. I was not enamored with the decision cuz i'd rather be on nothing, but after 10 months being off of it I had to be honest that I was not doing well with anxiety and depression. But if you find a good one for you, at the right dose, it can help a lot, esp with things like sleep. if you want to talk about that at all, i'm kind of like a non-expert expert, a lot of ppl in my family have been on them.

 

"Isn't Spiro ment to help regulate hormones? Or is that if you take it alongside a BCP?" it seems spiro should do some regulating of hormones...i just read about it on wiki and along with anti androgene properties, it has weak progesterone and indirect estrogen effects. sucks that its taking this long tho. r u not wanting to do bc again? 

 

I really think black soap might help you. I know you've probably heard of like 1000 things that "might help you" but yeah, it really takes control of those pores and dries them up. theres a great link of a thread on here i should post.http://www.acne.org/...ack-soap-works/

 

im gonna post some recipes of good things to eat when you're craving sugar cuz i have a lot of time on my hands right now..

 

 

Smoothie:

 

 

one cup coconut milk/flax milk/soy milk (I use unsweetened cuz you don't need as much sugar with banana)

one yellow banana or 1/2 banana

1/2 cup raspberries

three tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder

one or two tablespoons soy creamer or coconut cream (can get in can from grocery store)..this makes it creamier

one or two teaspoons chia seeds or finely chopped nuts to put on top for crunch

...i make that smoothie a lot and the cocoa powder provides a little caffeine. theres lots of variations of it you can make too

 

 

pancakes:

one egg

mashed yellow banana

earth balance (soy butter)

chopped nuts

 

blend the egg and mashed banana together. cook like a normal pancake in some earth balance. when finished put more earth balance and nuts on top.

 

Sigh..hope everyone is having a good day.



Hey Kelseylee hope you are well today. Thankyou for the smoothie recipe and the pancake recipe! I have never made a pancake with a banana before. I have done the no dairy before but I am going to start it again, I think it could maybe help although it never helped too much when I first did it and noticed that when I encorporated milk back in it never made any difference for better or for worse.

I will have a look at that black soap link, funnily enough I bought a Black Soap from boots, it is called "Dead Sea black mud Soap" Im thinking of trying it on my body first, I am pretty anxioud about putting creams and soaps and things on my face you know?

You are right too, hormones are extremely complex AND very pernickity - it seems to be hard to grasp them sometimes. When my period stopped I was recovering from anorexia, and my doctor actually told me that that was what probably caused the amenhorrea (absence of period). So would you say the BCP's helped your skin then?



#59 tracy521

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

hey missac17 i really feel for you. i was breaking out really bad before i started spiro with cysts and nodules and then when i went on spiro i kept breaking out really bad for a while. i am almost 13 weeks in and it will get better i can promise you. the first few months i was getting my period like every 2 weeks which caused me more acne than i would have normally had (i get the worst acne before my period) and it seemed like every pore around my chin and jawline was broke out and very inflamed. i went to a wellness doctor who had me take a blood test to find out that i am allergic to eggs, dairy, wheat, gluten, barley, rye, beet etc. i stopped eating all that stuff for 2 months and my face only got worse so now i eat those things in moderation. i dont even know how reliable those tests were since the doc said that most people clear up completely when they stop eating all the stuff they are allergic to.i really do think for me its just a hormonal thing. if i was allergic to dairy i dont think i would have been able to eat it like all summer and be clear ya know? anyway after 8 weeks of being on spiro i asked my pa for another antibiotic called keflex. within 3 days i had no more cysts and my face is clearing up really well. it totally get rid of the redness too so you could try asking for that.

i was on 100mg of spiro and my pa is going to up it to 150mg and keep me on the keflex for at least another 3 weeks or so then slowly wean me off in the hopes that the spiro would have  kicked in by then. i only get 1 period a month now so i think things are starting to get back to normal for me but if the acne comes back i am getting right on accutane and my pa says if i take it and stay on spiro i shouldnt have a relapse after i get off of it. just try to stay strong and workout if you can because it will help you mentally. i went through a bad couple of weeks where i literally wanted to die i never felt so low in my life and i have been through a lot of shit but you know what, it will get better. it can only go up from here. if you ever need to talk pm me. i am here for you!

one more thing my endo said spiro can take up to 6 months to work so keep your chin up. how long have you been on it now?


Edited by tracy521, 13 March 2013 - 11:52 AM.


#60 kelseylee

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:13 PM

Hi Stacy, I just wanted to write and say I hope its going well. The bcp's have helped things generally I think, a lot of the weird side effects I felt related to pcos have subsided. I did have a really rough time emotionally the first three days, cuz of the effects of the new hormones i'm imagining, but that improved. I felt/feel pretty moody and emotionally up and down but pcos made me moody too so maybe thats just my state hah. 

 

glad to hear you were able to feel better after having your periods return from amenorrhea. wow that took me a long time to google that and make sure i got the right word. i feel your pain on the restricted eating, in high school i was exercising constantly and restricting what I was eating a lot. definitely stopped having my period for awhile. I was underweight for my height and remember being really hungry a lot. like starving feeling. the shitty part is, I was kind of proud of myself in my 20s when i started eating normal......and then i guess i took it slightly too far and ended up with shitty health problems. its like theres a tiny margin for being healthy; you're either dieting too much and its terribly unhealthy or you're being too glutenous and its wreaking havoc on your system.

 

I really hope the spiro starts working for you, from the changes i've already seen from bcp's, and the anti-androgene supplements, I really think it will work for you. weight fluctuations, from personal experience, strongly affect hormones, which are then stubborn and lag behind other changes in the body. But once they start to shift I think you will see things get better fast. It seems there's no harm in continuing and if you give up that will prob just confuse your body more right? its hard i know just trying to say words of encouragement, the last like four days have been a mix of a lot better, and really shitty so this post is kind of cathartic. 

 

Before I start talking about emotional stuff I’ll finish up talking about acne. So despite the roller coaster, the thing that is improving right now is actually my acne. I know I’ve said this like three times before but seriously: African black soap is saving my life right now. My skin gets a little better every single day. Every day, 3-5 previous clogged pores, which had been there for months and just wanted to make a real zit, completely dry up and dislodge themselves from the pore. That sounds kind of intense, but it happens very, very softly and literally ever clogged pore that has surfaced and then just fallen to the wayside, has left zero mark. The pore is not even enlarged. It’s actually amazing. I was squeezing the shit out of my pores before, or an estatician was. And now that they’re closed its like they’re closed permanently; everytime I would extract, within five days the same pores would fill right back up and potentially turn into white heads/acne.

 

I’m going to really get serious about black soap here because it is the ONLY, the ONLY thing I have ever put on my face that has affected my acne at all. That is saying a lot right? Oh and it cost me $3.49. I spent at least $200 in the last year on aveda. Let that sink in. I washed my face with aveda the other day out of curiosity and it left my skin feeling almost dirty compared to the black soap.

 

I know you guys are super cautious about what you put on your skin which I understand more than anything, but this is pretty much as natural as it gets. And when pores are clogged, I just didn’t know what else to do to heal them besides wait like years. I’ve had some of them for a long time. If you use it once a day, it mostly has just a tingly feeling. If you use it two or three times and leave it on longer than 20 seconds, it has a tiny burn to it. Pretty much like salycilic acid if you’re using that often, which never unclogged my pores btw even tho I still use it cuz I spent like $80 on fancy aveda pads. But yah I totally understand if ppl aren’t ready to jump on ship with something new, but if you do find yourself saying, I’m ready to unclog these bitches and see some movement, it is the stuff you need. It is not as effective on cysts/badly inflamed pimples although it does help big white heads calm down, and it makes smaller whiteheads go away FAST. I still usually extract bad whiteheads (gently..) if they’re aggressive enough and not going away on their own. but all whiteheads started as a clogged pore so my science mind is saying its preventing new ones. Here’s some graphic proof: on a lot of my previously clogged pores there is a little clear/yellowish “seed” hanging off the skin. That is really gross. But its like it literally turned it inside out, from being clogged on the inside to being falling off on the outside. Okay I’ll stop now…

 

Oh yeah I made a big mistake of taking melatonin last night and it made me feel depressed as hell this morning; I woke up really early and tossed and turned and basically freaked out and just thought about all the negative aspects of my life and all the mistakes I’ve made over and over and over. Should probably likewise write them down and burn it. Never taking melatonin again.

 

After melatonin funtimes, I saw the holistic counselor this afternoon and made sort of an idiot of myself. She took my full history and I got overwhelmed by trying to explain…my whole life…to a stranger…and talked too much but really vaguely and jumped from topic to topic and even confused myself. I used to be so much better at articulating myself, especially verbally. I feel like I just verbally vomited on her and left her to clean it up. And the most intense part, which I guess Ill admit is that when I left, I looked at her notepad and I am 99% I saw that she wrote “hard for her for me to see her struggle” or something along those alones. You might have to read that a few times but I think u will get the idea. And it is very true. So at least I know she is smart haha.


Edited by kelseylee, 13 March 2013 - 11:31 PM.





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