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#1 jt79111

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

Ok so I posted on here a month ago. I have now done tons of research and would like others input. So the first thing is genetics is absolutely not an option as no one in my family has ever had it. We are actually known for our flawless skin. As a teen not a single pimple. Not kidding not even one ( even wearing mac makeup for days on end and not washing my face). I've been in relationships constantly the last couple of years so I never really wore makeup. I started breaking out a little at 18 and 19 ( a pimple hear and there thinking it was the weirdest thing) last year this time I got a really bad break out from my first job ( clothing store) and used pro active and it cleared up there were only papules though but they still cleared up. I stopped using it and around october of this year ( had the worst nervous break down imaginable - the last 3 years just finally did me in) I was also smoking two packs a day. Of course the breakout that occured I thought was the worst thing I'd ever seen. It just keeps getting worse! Especially when I did any antibiotic or laser treatment or for the one week I tried the oral antibiotic. And I don't mean worse like pro active where it brings it out then takes it away I mean worse like made them from small to angry and "bloated" and my whole skin bright red ( like what I already had put on steroids). The stress has been non stop- so many changes, moves, growing pains etc,...These little papules just keep coming and they start off small or not even on the surface at all and end up being pustules and a couple even nodules. I had stated a month ago that I didn't have any on my neck or back but now that just started happening too. And of course they started off so small then got bigger. I already have a new bf so it's not like I'm worried for those reasons but the truth is I have been through so much trauma and there's very few things in my life that haven't been taken away from me. This is so much more than just appearance for me and the effects are so much greater than I can really explain. I used the bp but stopped as it did nothing (didn't make it worse but did nothing) I have now been on a very strict diet, a gallon of water a day, zinc pills, multi vitamin, fish oil pills,and milk thistle ( tons of cigs, caffeine, and monsters over the years). I just am so confused why they start off so small then end up being bigger and more inflamed. I'm now using lerosett and it's definitely helping bring down the inflammation and allowing me to get them to a place where I can pop them and dry them out but more little papules just keep coming. I will only have insurance for another month so I need answers now. For some people it may just be skin for me like I said it's alot more. I litterally can't focus on anything else. Also one weird little side not I'm getting dandruff for the first time too I don't know if that's any correlation. I'm also getting just one or two in the most random places like inside of my fore arm and one right above the breast. Also I'm pretty sure its not an allergic reaction to soaps or detergents or anything because I've switched to hypo allergenic stuff.

The research I've done has made me want to question two things as a cause and I want to know from people who are here to help ( not sell their products)


The first thing I'm thinking is that it may be like fungal follicultus as it did go away and it came back and the topicals made it so much worse I mean like from a level 2 to a level 10 and I've been on alot of antibiotics the last couple of years because I get sick alot when I'm cold especially because I smoke. The second is that it may be hormonal but my periods are super regular but I still plan on seeing the endocrinologist.

I asked the dermo if she could do a cure to see if it was fungal folliculitus or if it was follicultus in general and she wouldn't do it because "acne and folliculitus were the same thing".

So my question is how likely is it that it's fungal and not bacterial like acne? Also if it's 100 percent not genetic does that mean that birth control would be a better solution than antibiotics. Honestly, having my face that swollen bright red again makes me want to cringe. And the oral antibiotics sound awful to do to my body ( yes even though I smoke I don't want to put it through much more)


1.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg
These are from my first post


securedownload.jpg securedownload 2.jpg
Then this is now... even worse ! =((

I seriously cant even believe 6 months ago I didn't have a single pimple... =/

Also I've done alot of research and since bacteria is only one part of acne I really don't want to do the antibiotics. I'm not looking for a cover up ( laser therapies or extractions or "the right product" to minimize symptoms I really want help finding the cause) I'm obsessed I can't even fully enjoy my new bf or getting my own place soon etc all these awesome things because my perfectly flawless skin has turned into this ( in 6 months too! and it keeps getting worse and i'm so freaked out =/)

#2 nakedsmurf

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:58 AM

Since you had clear skin 6 months ago.
Your acne might be diet related cut all diary sugary smokes alcohol gluten for a month, See how that goes
My mom didn't have acne till she was 28 (severe acne too) women could actually get it at any age more than men.

#3 onlyindreams

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

Hi,
I'm brand new on here and just happened to see your post and thought I'd give my two cents. I never had acne til I was 23 and my sister had the same problem. I def don't think it's a fungal thing from looking at your pics, it looks just like what happened to me. I would suggest going to a new derm. I'm 41 and suffered from 23-39, I tried everything even did accutane at 28 and all that did was make my hair fall out. I think your acne is hormonal and stress induced (mine was)....I did all the antibiotics,creams and birth control but it wasn't til I was 38 that I tried Differin and used it for three months that one day I woke up and honestly my face was clear, not a single whitehead or zit and then it took about a year for the scars to go away. I lost my health insurance and last year my face started breaking out again but used salicylic acid,(clean and clear) glycolic acid (alpha hydrox aha souffle) and a sulfur mask everyday, and I mean every single day. I never got a good answer as to the cause of my acne or why at such a late start but I can say for sure over the years I know stress played a magor role. If I had an extremely stressful week by the end of the week my face would explode and also noticed before my period I'd break out. It's so strange cuz your breaking out on your cheeks mainly and that is how it started for me but after a few years it seemed to be more concentrated on my chin and jawline.
I know how you feel, and it sux cause you have enough stress but then you have additional stress from the acne. This is most likely something you're going to have to fight for many years to come but I would find a new derm and try differin, what ever you use make sure you don't just give up. Over the years I would use something and start slacking and break out super bad but once I started something and stuck to it is when I finally cleared up. IMO stress and fluctuating hormones are your cause but even a Dr. would only be guessing. I wish you luck.

#4 13yearsofAcne

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:10 PM

Amazing how much Acne can ruin everything isn't it.

I feel for you, sounds terrible.

Maybe this is a case of Psychodermatology, I don't really know. But yes, I suppose you could say acne and folliculitis are essentially the same thing.

Edited by 13yearsofAcne, 29 December 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#5 jt79111

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

Thank you all so much for your input. Finally saw a hormone doctor and turns out I have pcos (polycystic ovary syndrome) I haven't gained any weight yet but maybe that comes later (dreading that as I've always been complimented on my body and before this year my skin ) if anyone has had this or knows of a hollistic cure or hollisitc treatment plan I would be so so grateful. Crazy thing is I was way insecure when I had perfect body and clear skin I am the last person who can deal with this I'm really not strong enough or confident enough to pull off the changes that can happen ( and skin wise have already happened). :/ a lot of other stuff is going on too and I'm so freaking poor and an going to lose my health insurance the end of this month so I'm really leaning towards hollisitc solutions here. Please of anyone knows I will be more grateful than I can say.

#6 Green Gables

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:59 AM

Holistically:

- Stop eating dairy (dairy is loaded with hormones)
- Stop eating sugar (sugar and high carbs creates a hormonal response that can create acne)
- Supplement with Betaine HCL at each meal (when you're chronically stressed, which it sounds like you are, your stomach acid production lowers and sometimes it doesn't fix itself even if you stop stressing. Low stomach acid makes your body incapable of dealing with toxins in your food. It comes out in your skin.). If it's fungal, Betaine HCL will help with that too.
- Stop stressing yourself out. Easier said than done.
- Take some herbal antifungals like Pau d'Arco or Oregon Grape.

#7 armadillo

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

If you indeed have PCOS I recommend you somehow get back your insurance...or maybe your family can help you out financially? Unless you are properly treated your symptoms are likely to get worse. Also as long as you are not treated you could develop type 2 diabetes and it's unlikely that you'll be able to conceive without taking drugs that make you ovulate, if you want to start a family anytime soon. Of course it's up to you in the end, but I don't think this is a case where you could get by on holistic treatment.

Obviously, cutting out all the hormone-laden foods such as dairy, and working to keep your weight optimal will help but it won't make your acne go away entirely or fix your reproductive health.

#8 Spotthedifference

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

Thank you all so much for your input. Finally saw a hormone doctor and turns out I have pcos (polycystic ovary syndrome) I haven't gained any weight yet but maybe that comes later (dreading that as I've always been complimented on my body and before this year my skin ) if anyone has had this or knows of a hollistic cure or hollisitc treatment plan I would be so so grateful. Crazy thing is I was way insecure when I had perfect body and clear skin I am the last person who can deal with this I'm really not strong enough or confident enough to pull off the changes that can happen ( and skin wise have already happened). :/ a lot of other stuff is going on too and I'm so freaking poor and an going to lose my health insurance the end of this month so I'm really leaning towards hollisitc solutions here. Please of anyone knows I will be more grateful than I can say.


Hi :) I'm 20 in less than a few week's time and I was diagnosed with PCOS at 18.

All the pills suggested for it do funky things to me (like paralyzing migraines and the risk of a stroke. Yay!) That's only because of my individual (rare) reaction to them though. Anyway, I'm on a holistic plan (Self made, so take it with a pinch of salt) to sort myself out.

- Agnus Castus and evening primrose oil. Look 'em up. Also, saw palemtto might be a good idea if you have excessive hair growth, or spearmint tea if the SP is too much for you.
- Green tea at least 3 or 4 times a day. It has hormone balancing activities as well as anti oxidants.
- Exercise 6 times a week (including weight lifting - nothing too hardcore though)
- Meditation. Trust me, that 'happy place' will save you a lot of agrro mood wise.
- Getting about 8 hours sleep a night.
- Consuming more fruits and vegetables, less red meats and saturated fats.
- Try to stick to things that are fairly low in sugar.
- Stress less. Ok, that's difficult to do. It requires a complete attitude over haul. But it can be done.
- Smile and laugh more. Happy chemicals abounds.

I'm on the low end of a healthy weight for my height, my acne is under control (see my log for details of that) and my mood swings are pretty much gone. I'm not saying it'll help with the pain, you need painkillers like mefanamic acid for that if it's really bad. But...

If you indeed have PCOS I recommend you somehow get back your insurance...or maybe your family can help you out financially? Unless you are properly treated your symptoms are likely to get worse. Also as long as you are not treated you could develop type 2 diabetes and it's unlikely that you'll be able to conceive without taking drugs that make you ovulate, if you want to start a family anytime soon. Of course it's up to you in the end, but I don't think this is a case where you could get by on holistic treatment.

Obviously, cutting out all the hormone-laden foods such as dairy, and working to keep your weight optimal will help but it won't make your acne go away entirely or fix your reproductive health.


Not true. The medical field have pretty much admitted they can't help me anymore than I'm helping myself. I still ovulate with unmedicated PCOS and can have children. It doesn't need medical treatment, but it's better if you can tolerate it.

#9 jt79111

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:21 PM

Ok so confused now doctor says she doesn't think I have pcos because only testosterone and cortisol were high ... Testosterone is at 81 and normal is 2-42. I've lost 15 pounds in 3 weeks just by dieting but acne keeps comin and now some peach fuzz (blonde thus far) my hair on my head is thinning by the say .....what in the hell I'm a 20 year old girl I don't want acne for the first time and I don't want to grow a beard or something messed up like that ( very much a female inside and out) what can I do? Should I get my estrogen levels too? Obviously smoking is exasperating the hormone inbalance going on. I kind of always suspected too much testosterone in our family nothing physical ever theyre pretty feminine but in their behavior theyre all super agro and ive always felt so gentle in comparison and also my skin has always been flawless my body always thing and yeah my hair on my head thick and def no excess hair on face. If I don't have pcos what the heck is going on? I always noticed too that whenever I lose weight I have to shave my legs more. I read low body fat lowers estrogen. Idk I know this an acne site not a hormonal board but if any females out there know of what's going on I'd be so thankful. I don't want to turn into a man :( I thought acne was the worst thing ever and man was I wrong hellllppp!!! Lol

#10 Green Gables

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

Ok so confused now doctor says she doesn't think I have pcos because only testosterone and cortisol were high ... Testosterone is at 81 and normal is 2-42. I've lost 15 pounds in 3 weeks just by dieting but acne keeps comin and now some peach fuzz (blonde thus far) my hair on my head is thinning by the say .....what in the hell I'm a 20 year old girl I don't want acne for the first time and I don't want to grow a beard or something messed up like that ( very much a female inside and out) what can I do? Should I get my estrogen levels too? Obviously smoking is exasperating the hormone inbalance going on. I kind of always suspected too much testosterone in our family nothing physical ever theyre pretty feminine but in their behavior theyre all super agro and ive always felt so gentle in comparison and also my skin has always been flawless my body always thing and yeah my hair on my head thick and def no excess hair on face. If I don't have pcos what the heck is going on? I always noticed too that whenever I lose weight I have to shave my legs more. I read low body fat lowers estrogen. Idk I know this an acne site not a hormonal board but if any females out there know of what's going on I'd be so thankful. I don't want to turn into a man Posted Image I thought acne was the worst thing ever and man was I wrong hellllppp!!! Lol


No one really can tell you what exactly caused your hormonal imbalance, but if your testosterone is high, that's reason enough to get hormonal treatment. Don't waste your time trying to answer the "why"...seriously no one knows. Just try to fix it. I'd recommend a birth control pill that specifically treats hormonal acne. They are listed in green in my signature.

Yes, too high testosterone can cause hair loss. It is the primary reason men go bald. Most of the treatments for male hair loss involve LOWERING testosterone.

But yes, lower body fat = less ability to hold estrogen and progesterone = generally more acne problems.

I don't really know how smoking affects your hormones, never smoked myself, but smoking is pretty much never good for you, so...

Edited by Green Gables, 22 January 2013 - 01:20 AM.


#11 jt79111

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:48 AM

Green gables- thank you and sorry to sound like an air head ( super tired right now) but how do I find your signature so I can see which ones to take. Also I'm interested maybe in a bcp that will increase estrogen / decrease testosterone something like yaz since its an antiandrogen( except I don't want to take yaz in particular due to horror stories) and also what other medications suppress testosterone or androgens ( something like spiro and such) maybe the combo can really do the trick.

#12 Green Gables

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:54 AM

It's just the text right underneath my post...but I copied and pasted it here too. There are horror stories with every medication. Just be vigilant about watching for bad side effects so you can get off it quick if you are one of the 2% who have a bad reaction.

Those of you who use birth control pills for acne, please realize that not all pills are created equal. For acne you want a pill that is LOW in androgenic activity. There are other factors but that is the first place to start.

Neutral (won't affect acne either way)
No hormones. Copper Paraguard IUD

Good (can reduce acne)
Drospirenone. Anti-androgenic. Used in Yaz, Yasmin, BeYaz.
Norgestimate. Low androgenic. Ortho Tri Cyclen, Tri Sprintec, Sprintec.
Cyproterone. Low androgenic. Diane-35.
Cyproterone acetate. Low androgenic. Dianette.

Not-so-good (may not make it worse, but probably won't make it better)
Ethynodial diacetate. Medium androgenic. Zovia, Demulen.
Desogestrel. Medium androgenic. Mircette, Apri, Reclipsen, Desogen, Kariva.
Gestodene. Medium androgenic, Femodene, Femodette, Millinette.
Norethindrone. Medium androgenic. Estrostep, Ortho Novum, Loestrin, Minestrin, Brevicon, Synphasic, Ovcon, Cyclafem.
Chlormadinone. Medium androgenic. Belara.

Bad (pizza face alert!)
Levonorgestrel. High androgenic. Enpress, Plan B, Mirena IUD, Seasonique, Lutera, Portia, Amethyst, Alesse, Seasonale, Triquilar, Triphasil, Aviane.
Nogestrel. High androgenic. Cryselle, Ovral, Ogestrel, Ovrette.
Etonogestrel. Medium-high androgenic. NuvaRing, Implanon, Nexplanon.
DMPA. Medium-high androgenic. DepoProvera.

Edited by Green Gables, 22 January 2013 - 01:56 AM.


#13 armadillo

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:17 AM


Thank you all so much for your input. Finally saw a hormone doctor and turns out I have pcos (polycystic ovary syndrome) I haven't gained any weight yet but maybe that comes later (dreading that as I've always been complimented on my body and before this year my skin ) if anyone has had this or knows of a hollistic cure or hollisitc treatment plan I would be so so grateful. Crazy thing is I was way insecure when I had perfect body and clear skin I am the last person who can deal with this I'm really not strong enough or confident enough to pull off the changes that can happen ( and skin wise have already happened). :/ a lot of other stuff is going on too and I'm so freaking poor and an going to lose my health insurance the end of this month so I'm really leaning towards hollisitc solutions here. Please of anyone knows I will be more grateful than I can say.


Hi Posted Image I'm 20 in less than a few week's time and I was diagnosed with PCOS at 18.

All the pills suggested for it do funky things to me (like paralyzing migraines and the risk of a stroke. Yay!) That's only because of my individual (rare) reaction to them though. Anyway, I'm on a holistic plan (Self made, so take it with a pinch of salt) to sort myself out.

- Agnus Castus and evening primrose oil. Look 'em up. Also, saw palemtto might be a good idea if you have excessive hair growth, or spearmint tea if the SP is too much for you.
- Green tea at least 3 or 4 times a day. It has hormone balancing activities as well as anti oxidants.
- Exercise 6 times a week (including weight lifting - nothing too hardcore though)
- Meditation. Trust me, that 'happy place' will save you a lot of agrro mood wise.
- Getting about 8 hours sleep a night.
- Consuming more fruits and vegetables, less red meats and saturated fats.
- Try to stick to things that are fairly low in sugar.
- Stress less. Ok, that's difficult to do. It requires a complete attitude over haul. But it can be done.
- Smile and laugh more. Happy chemicals abounds.

I'm on the low end of a healthy weight for my height, my acne is under control (see my log for details of that) and my mood swings are pretty much gone. I'm not saying it'll help with the pain, you need painkillers like mefanamic acid for that if it's really bad. But...

If you indeed have PCOS I recommend you somehow get back your insurance...or maybe your family can help you out financially? Unless you are properly treated your symptoms are likely to get worse. Also as long as you are not treated you could develop type 2 diabetes and it's unlikely that you'll be able to conceive without taking drugs that make you ovulate, if you want to start a family anytime soon. Of course it's up to you in the end, but I don't think this is a case where you could get by on holistic treatment.

Obviously, cutting out all the hormone-laden foods such as dairy, and working to keep your weight optimal will help but it won't make your acne go away entirely or fix your reproductive health.


Not true. The medical field have pretty much admitted they can't help me anymore than I'm helping myself. I still ovulate with unmedicated PCOS and can have children. It doesn't need medical treatment, but it's better if you can tolerate it.


Not everyone who has PCOS ovulates without meds. I guess you don't need to ovulate if you don't want kids in the near future, so it's not necessarily a problem. However, if you have other 'distressing' symptoms such as hirsutism, uncontrollable weight gain and severe acne, I would personally seek medical help. The medical field can help you very much if you have PCOS.

#14 jt79111

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:26 PM

@ armadillo they now don't think I have pcos. I've lost 15 pounds just by dieting (despite some over eating lol) and the tests don't lead them to believe its pcos. However testosterone is crazy high 81 and normal range is 2-42 and dhea is high. However Dheas is in normal range. The hirsutism is starting a little bit and my hair is thinning like crazy! Also acne keeps coming. I'm chronically stressed so that is a long journey to reverse and stress raises testosterone. I need real solutions though on the best birth controls ( really intrigued by dianette at the moment) and effectiveness of spiro or other natural herbs and pills that act like spiro. I know I want a bcp that's going to give me lots of estrogen and act like yaz because I have like no body fat right now and I want the hirsutism and hair thinning and acne to cease. I understand that it will only mask symptoms but my problems may be Solely caused by stress and that's not going away anytime soon. I'm confident if there's medication that can turn males into females and vice versa that it won't be too hard to balance myself out?

#15 jt79111

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

also @ spot the difference : if I don't have pcos but just have crazy high testosterone levels are 81 and normal range is 2-42 and dhea is high but not Dheas (starting to lose hair, get hirsutism, and moderate acne out of nowhere despite losing 15 pounds recently with out even trying hard at all) how can I lower it? Like what bcp is the best ( dianette etc) and what herb acts like spiro ( not just lessening effects of testosterone but actually lowering it) I've always known I have too much t cus of other reasons ( which I've always enjoyed) but now it's getting too high causing vanity issues and like a circle the stress is raising the testosterone but my elevated testosterone symptoms are raising the stress. I seriously have these big dark circles under my eyes my hair looks stringy I'm getting told in way too skinny ( people are accusing me of meth right now since I look sick and am thin with pretty crappy skin hair everything) I've always noticed too when I gain weight my hair looks healthier and my skin got glowy ( no difference in acne since there wasn't any either way) but I'm deff wondering if its cus body fat helps estrogen. Your advice would help so much even if I don't have pcos( still debatable) maybe you can guide me to the proper bcp and something to help lower testosterone in addition. I'm so sick of people asking if I'm on drugs when honestly I'm not I'm just stressed because my brain got trained that way. As for insulin resistance etc i don't think that's an issue yet cus the test showed normal and I lose weight crazy fast but hopefully pcos won't be something in the future knock on wood. Still diet and exercise are already in my everyday life so some additional meds are deff a must I think ie: bcp and lowering testosterone

#16 jt79111

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

Also how can I get diane 35 I'm in Orange County ca and I don't think they really have it here

#17 Jessie09

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:59 AM

Hi there,

 

I can relate to your story. I had mild acne as a teen, but it cleared up when I was 18 and I was pretty clear until I was 23. I'm 26 now and have been dealing with a return of acne for the past few years. After struggling to treat it for a few years with antibiotics, I finally saw an OB-GYN and was just diagnosed with PCOS. I tried BCP and it did help clear up my skin when I was taking it briefly, but I had to stop due to the side effects. I would recommend trying Yaz or Ortho Tri Cyclin if you can. Right now I am using an estrogen patch and oral progesterone to boost my hormones and I like it a lot.

 

I have always been thin like you and I believe this is a significant contributing factor to PCOS. Low body fat in women can lower the production of female hormones and increase inflammation on a cellular level. My skin got significantly worse when I lost some weight due to stress when I was 23. I would recommend that you make sure you are eating enough and try to get in healthy fats, such as nuts or fish. Fish oil helps me a lot, physically and for my mood. I am also a coffee addict and try to not have more than two cups a day and watch my sugar intake. The bottom line is that eliminating certain foods from your diet will not improve your skin if you aren't getting enough nutrients overall. 

 

Hope this helps a little.

Jess



#18 armadillo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

@ armadillo they now don't think I have pcos. I've lost 15 pounds just by dieting (despite some over eating lol) and the tests don't lead them to believe its pcos. However testosterone is crazy high 81 and normal range is 2-42 and dhea is high. However Dheas is in normal range. The hirsutism is starting a little bit and my hair is thinning like crazy! Also acne keeps coming. I'm chronically stressed so that is a long journey to reverse and stress raises testosterone. I need real solutions though on the best birth controls ( really intrigued by dianette at the moment) and effectiveness of spiro or other natural herbs and pills that act like spiro. I know I want a bcp that's going to give me lots of estrogen and act like yaz because I have like no body fat right now and I want the hirsutism and hair thinning and acne to cease. I understand that it will only mask symptoms but my problems may be Solely caused by stress and that's not going away anytime soon. I'm confident if there's medication that can turn males into females and vice versa that it won't be too hard to balance myself out?

As you can only mask the symptoms of high androgen activity and not cure it, don't worry about 'masking' the problem with BCP. That's what everyone has to do who wants to get rid of their symptoms, unfortunately. So, why don't you ask your doctor to go on Dianette? I don't know how the US medical system works, but can you not talk him/her into giving you several months worth of pills, at least until you can afford insurance again?



#19 jt79111

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

They don't offer dianette in us :/ and now I'm fighting with doctor to give me yasmine. She doesn't want to do it because I smoke.

#20 jt79111

jt79111

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:29 PM

@ Jessie ( that's my name too lol) is there anyway I can prevent pcos now or am I screwed either way? Also does yasmine work better than ortho tri cyline or they about the same? The dianette has amazing reviews for thick hair no more hirsutism and absolutely beautiful skin. However unless I order it online I just can't get it and its probably not safe to medicate myself with dianette when the doctors here haven't heard anything about it.