34 replies to this topic

[FSAS]

I've been having some pain in my teeth recently and upon closer inspection with the torch on my phone i noticed there is insane amounts of build up around my teeth, very yellow and looks like you'd need a scraper to remove. even my back teeth are so yellow its gross. i was following the advice to give up fluoride(to perhaps help acne, but mainly for overall health to help my acne if possible). I have for many months now. what i do is:
oil pull in the morning with sesame oil, sea salt to wash mouth. then I use a herbal toothpaste (i've tried a few). at night i brush with baking soda. although it makes my teeth feel clean i guess its not doing the job. i brush for an appropriate amount of time.
i've been doing this for months and noticed my teeth arent even getting better, just worse. im actually scared to go to the dentist, firstly i dont have the money but secondly just embarassed :/

my diet does not contain things that are known to harm teeth like processed sugar etc and i floss everytime i brush. i drink a lot of water and dont drink coffee (and dont drink herbal tea often).

any suggestions? Is there a way to reverse this or am i going to have to go to the dentist. i dont want to have to use fluoride again -_- it made no difference to my health and acne stopping it but its just another thing i'd like to avoid for overall health to help my acne/hormones.

has anyone else had issues stopping fluoride?

thanks you for any input

[Binga]

never heard that fluoride causes acne. I would suggest to reintroduce fluoride toothpaste again.

[Noregrets92]

Is the build up hard or soft? if it's soft then it's plaque which can be removed by brushing but once the plaque mineralizes it forms calculus which needs to be removed by a dentist during a simple scale and polish procedure. I'm a dental student and have practiced this a lot, it takes quite a bit of force to remove and the right instruments. I would recommend you go see a dentist sooner than later because when the calculus is above the gum-line it's not so bad but with time it'll go below the gum line forming subgingival calculus and that's when complications arise, irreversible gum disease, tooth loss etc. I don't mean to scare you it's just a lot of dental disease are easily reversible in the early stages which is why everyone should get a checkup every 6 months.

I don't know about costs in your country but here in the uk a scale and polish cost £16.50 and trust me it's not embarrassing at all I've seen much much worse oral hygiene conditions and it's our job, to a dentist it's just normal the same way 'embarrassing problems' are to a doctor.

If you don't want to use fluoride then buy a non fluoride toothpaste that contains some antibacterial ingredients. when your brushing u physically remove debris but you also need to kill the bacteria that cause dental disease. You could buy a tea tree oil toothpaste and add some baking soda.

[alternativista]

Flouride impairs thyroid function. And is toxic. And it doesn't help to remove plaque.

The baking soda and the herbal paste are probably less abrasive than whatever you used to use. Which is actually a good thing. You want to protect your enamel. Dry brushing actually removes more plaque than anything else. And you can get a scraper.

Edited by alternativista, 03 August 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[tritonxiv]

I've been off fluoride toothpaste for a couple months now. I haven't noticed anything except a cleaner feeling mouth.

I brush/floss my teeth twice a day with only baking soda. Perhaps it's that oil or herbal toothpaste which is the culprit. Keep it simple.

Also, I didn't see any mention of a mouthwash. I personally use pure vodka because it's basically Listerine without all the added chemicals.

Good luck!

[alternativista]

This is from Dr Mercola's site. A blurb article from Prevention magazine and then Mercola's additions

Dry Brushing Beats Dental Plaque

'Dry brushing' -- brushing teeth without toothpaste -- may be a more effective plaque remover than brushing with paste, one expert says. This study found that 128 individuals who dry-brushed over a six-month period saw plaque deposits on their back teeth drop by 67%, compared with plaque build up found on their teeth before the dry-brushing regimen began. Gum bleeding due to gingivitis (gum disease) also fell by 50%.

One should use a soft, dry brush which seems to scour away built-up bacterial plaque better than a moistened one. If bristles feel stiff, 'relax' them by running your thumb through them before brushing. Begin inside, finish out. The inner surfaces of the bottom row of teeth should be brushed first, before saliva buildup develops. Proceed to the inner top level of teeth next, then move to the outer surfaces. The dry-brushing process should take about a minute and a half.
Prevention September, 1997;49(9):45
Dr. Mercola's Comment:
I also learned the following technique from Dr. Doug Cook, one of the top environmental dentists in the country. It is the way I brush my teeth.
Use a dry Periodontal Health Brush (715-839-9103, I also have them in my office). Blot the brush at a 45 degree angle at the gum line about 20 times in each area around the mouth. Start behind the teeth first. You can rinse or snap dry the brush after each area to remove the bacteria and parasites. Then use a mixture of six parts of baking soda to one part of Real Salt or Sea Salt. Place in a blender and mix for 30 seconds then place in a container. Wet the tip of your index finger and place a SMALL amount of the salt and soda mixture on the gums. Starting with the upper outside gums and then the inside of the upper, followed by the lower outside of the gums then the lower inside. Spit out the excess. After 15 minutes rinse your mouth. This mixture is incredibly effective at killing the bacteria and parasites that cause plaque. Some dentist will even take a sample from your mouth and show you with a microscope the incredible difference prior to and after using this program and how it radically reduce the bacterial concentration in your gums. It is very important to improve periodontal health. And healthy gums means less teeth problems.

A description of technique from a NY Times article:

Brushing Guidelines. The following are some recommendations for brushing:

• Use a dry brush. One study reported that when people brushed their teeth without toothpaste first, using a soft dry brush, their plaque deposits were reduced by 67%, and gum bleeding dropped by 50%.
• No brush of any size, shape, or gimmick is effective if it is incorrectly positioned in the mouth. Place the brush where the gum meets the tooth, with bristles resting along each tooth at a 45-degree angle.
• Begin by dry brushing the inside the bottom row of teeth, then the inner top teeth, and last the outer surfaces.
• Wiggle the brush back and forth so the bristles extend under the gum line.
• Scrub the broad, biting surfaces of the back teeth.
• Dry brushing should take about a minute and a half.
• A paste is then applied, and the teeth should again be brushed in the same way.
• The tongue should be scrubbed for a total of about 30 seconds. A tongue scraper used with an anti-bacterial mouthwash (such as Listerine) is more effective than a toothbrush in removing bacteria.
• Rinse the toothbrush thoroughly and then tap it on the edge of the sink at least five times to get rid of debris.
• Flossing should finish the process. A mouthwash may also be used.

Some more links:
http://www.drbunn.com/faq/dry-brushing

http://www.wynman.com/link1e7.html This is an interview with a dentist who has some pretty interesting things to say, tons I'd never heard. He mentions Weston Price and other researchers and observers of cultures not/less influenced by the European cultures. And he brings up an interesting point about acids dissolve enamel and exposing the more sensitive dentin which people think is stains and what they need is harsher abrasives making the problem worse.

--------------------------
FSAS: You mention that your teeth were more sensitive and that's why you looked at your teeth. Have you been having more acidic things like lemon juice? ACV? What about diet sodas? And you aren't bulimic are you?

I've been looking for info on this periodontal health brush that both Mercola and Wynman recommend. I haven't found it yet, other than and ADA recommendation. No picture.

Edited by alternativista, 03 August 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[tritonxiv]

i dont want to have to use fluoride again -_- it made no difference to my health

This is because you need to remove the fluoride that has already accumulated within your endocrine glands. The only way to do this (slowly and over time) is by substituting another halogen (iodine) that can unbind the fluoride from your receptor sites. Iodine is needed by nearly every process in your body and can be utilized at all levels. Not only do you need to avoid ALL sources of fluoride to prevent further damage to your cognitive abilities, you need to detox the years of accumulated fluoride in order to restore the full endocrine function you enjoyed in your younger years.

[dejaclairevoyant]

Stop using toothpaste! Toothpaste contains glycerine which STOPS teeth from healing.

Use something else, like baking soda, or better, an herbal tooth powder, to clean your teeth. My teeth were full of holes until I switched from toothpaste (EVEN the natural kind is bad) to tooth powder.

http://www.healingteethnaturally.com/tooth-remineralisation-demineralisation-saliva-ph.html

"For teeth to be able to integrate the minerals contained in saliva into their structural "latticework", i.e. for them to remineralize, via saliva Dr. Gerald Judd, author of 'Good Teeth Birth to Death', insists that teeth must be "clean" to allow this remineralization to occur. In his eyes, teeth must not only be brushed but also be free of any coating of sticky glycerin (see details at Dr. Gerald Judd's natural dental protocol). Oddly, glycerin is a common ingredient in many commercial toothpastes (and even found in health food store varieties).

To my knowledge Dr. Judd was the first to "officially" recommend using soap instead of toothpaste to effectively "squeaky" clean teeth and gums, as the first crucial step for allowing remineralization to occur from the nutrition provided by the saliva.
While Dr. Judd's insistence on glycerin- and otherwise clean teeth seems to make sense, some dental researchers such as Dr. Weston A. Price and Dr. George W. Heard have reported seeing perfectly healthy teeth which had never even been cleaned and were thickly covered with various impurities. Invariably, these teeth were found in people having lived on a natural mineral and trace element-rich diet from birth."

[alternativista]

Stop using toothpaste! Toothpaste contains glycerine which STOPS teeth from healing.

Use something else, like baking soda, or better, an herbal tooth powder, to clean your teeth. My teeth were full of holes until I switched from toothpaste (EVEN the natural kind is bad) to tooth powder.

http://www.healingte...-saliva-ph.html

"For teeth to be able to integrate the minerals contained in saliva into their structural "latticework", i.e. for them to remineralize, via saliva Dr. Gerald Judd, author of 'Good Teeth Birth to Death', insists that teeth must be "clean" to allow this remineralization to occur. In his eyes, teeth must not only be brushed but also be free of any coating of sticky glycerin (see details at Dr. Gerald Judd's natural dental protocol). Oddly, glycerin is a common ingredient in many commercial toothpastes (and even found in health food store varieties).

To my knowledge Dr. Judd was the first to "officially" recommend using soap instead of toothpaste to effectively "squeaky" clean teeth and gums, as the first crucial step for allowing remineralization to occur from the nutrition provided by the saliva.
While Dr. Judd's insistence on glycerin- and otherwise clean teeth seems to make sense, some dental researchers such as Dr. Weston A. Price and Dr. George W. Heard have reported seeing perfectly healthy teeth which had never even been cleaned and were thickly covered with various impurities. Invariably, these teeth were found in people having lived on a natural mineral and trace element-rich diet from birth."

They also tend to use some kind of chewing sticks to clean their teeth. And they sell such things on Amazon. Or gather them from the great outdoors.

Edited by alternativista, 03 August 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Noregrets92]

^ Flouride impairs the thyroid hormone. And is toxic. And it doesn't help to remove plaque.

The baking soda and the herbal paste are probably less abrasive than whatever you used to use. Which is actually a good thing. You want to protect your enamel. Dry brushing actually removes more plaque than anything else. And you can get a scraper.

If you read my post again you'll see i did not recommend fluoride, nor did i state or imply it helps to remove plaque so I don't see why you felt the need to direct that at me. What FSAS describes as needing a scraper to remove sounds like calculus (plaque and calculus are not the same) which dry or wet brushing won't remove because it's a hard mineralized mass adhered to the tooth surface. This needs to be removed by a simple procedure by the dentist (doesn't involve fluoride) and then she has a clean canvas to work on with alternative methods. I agree fluoride is a controversial ingredient hopefully by the time i graduate there's peer reviewed research on alternatives that I can recommend to my patients.

I've seen and analysed a lot of medical studies and the one you posted i wouldn't give much credibility. The sample size is small comparable to those used on adverts for cosmetics, you also have to consider that the participants are likely to pay more attention to their oral hygiene now that they're taking part in a study, it's just basic human nature.

There's a lot more factors then just brushing your teeth when it comes to dental disease, salivary composition, flow rate and diet etc which is why some people can get away with brushing once a day and others who brush twice can still end up with cavities.

I'd recommend a scale and polish then you have a clean canvas to try other methods and find what works for you

Edited by Noregrets92, 03 August 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[alternativista]

I found the Periodontal Health Tooth brush recommended by Mercola and the other Dentist as by far the most beneficial dental implement out there: http://phbtoothbrush...y.php?groupid=0

They look like the brushes the dentist gives to my mother who wears dentures. She gave me one once when I forgot my toothbrush. IF they are the same thing, they are extremely soft. And very very small, and I use a small brush. She doesn't brush. Either the dentist didn't explain that they were for her gums or she didn't pay any attention. She certainly isn't big into taking charge of her own health.

-----------------------------

If you read my post again you'll see i did not recommend fluoride, nor did i state or imply it helps to remove plaque so I don't see why you felt the need to direct that at me.

Sorry, but I didn't direct anything at you. Or respond to anything at all in your post which I read just fine. I was responding to the post above. and you apparently hit save before me.

Edited by alternativista, 03 August 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[AutonomousOne1980]

flouride has little to do with acne, but we may be overexposed to it.

but it also really does strengthen enamel and fight cavities.

are you consuming any highly acidic foods? or high sugar foods?
that could be harming your teeth as some of these foods like limes and lemons or vineger can chelate calcium and take it away from your teeth.

[Noregrets92]

I found the Periodontal Health Tooth brush recommended by Mercola and the other Dentist as by far the most beneficial dental implement out there: http://phbtoothbrush...y.php?groupid=0

They look like the brushes the dentist gives to my mother who wears dentures. She gave me one once when I forgot my toothbrush. IF they are the same thing, they are extremely soft. And very very small, and I use a small brush. She doesn't brush. Either the dentist didn't explain that they were for her gums or she didn't pay any attention. She certainly isn't big into taking charge of her own health.

-----------------------------

If you read my post again you'll see i did not recommend fluoride, nor did i state or imply it helps to remove plaque so I don't see why you felt the need to direct that at me.

Sorry, but I didn't direct anything at you. Or respond to anything at all in your post which I read just fine. I was responding to the post above. and you apparently hit save before me.

My bad sorry

[Green Gables]

I also had much more plaque buildup on a natural toothpaste (sulfate-free, flouride-free) and a natural mouthwash (I used Squigle for the first 6 months, then Tom's brand for the next 6 months). This was confirmed by two dentist appointments. I have been well-educated on the proper brushing and flossing technique and my execution hasn't changed. I'm not sure if it's the fluoride, or if it's the absence of sulfates that wasn't removing plaque. I did try making my own baking soda paste but it was so disgusting to taste I quit.

I originally switched to natural toothpaste to see if it helped my acne anyway, which it didn't.

Sorry, I don't really have a suggestion, I went back to Crest toothpaste and Listerine and my teeth are doing fine now. My dentist said part of the problem is I have "deep grooves" in my teeth that a toothbrush will not get to. I need something like Listerine that will penetrate into those grooves to prevent cavities. My dad has the same grooves in his teeth, doesn't use a mouthwash and only brushes/flosses once a day, and his teeth are pretty bad.

I know we like to be all about naturally curing things, but if you look at the "natural" teeth of primitive cultures they are yellow, crooked, and usually missing several. I think the biggest way to naturally prevent plaque is to avoid sugars and acids. But you still need modern help to get "pretty" and "clean" teeth. Whether fluoride is the way to do that or not...I'm not really convinced either way. I just know that Crest and Listerine work better than the natural brands for me

Edited by Green Gables, 03 August 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[DaftFrost]

flouride has little to do with acne, but we may be overexposed to it.

but it also really does strengthen enamel and fight cavities.

are you consuming any highly acidic foods? or high sugar foods?
that could be harming your teeth as some of these foods like limes and lemons or vineger can chelate calcium and take it away from your teeth.

flouride has little to do with acne, but we may be overexposed to it.

but it also really does strengthen enamel and fight cavities.

are you consuming any highly acidic foods? or high sugar foods?
that could be harming your teeth as some of these foods like limes and lemons or vineger can chelate calcium and take it away from your teeth.

There was one entire book on Fluoride and acne. Person who cured acne her acne by minimizing fluoride intake. Teas do contain fluorides too, because of how they are prepared.
Fluoride is a toxic substance, it isn't recommended for you to consume it. just like how everyone thought, eating fat makes you get diabetes or drinking milk is healthy. Some countries ban fluoride in their water and they are just fine, infact healthier than Americans.

[dejaclairevoyant]

I don't know why I didn't mention OIL PULLING. In this thread yet. OIL PULLING. Look it up, because I have explained it many times and don't have time right now to explain it again. But it is an incredibly valuable thing to learn and make a habit of. Oil pulling--look it up and DO IT. Regardless of whether or not you have dental problems, this is something you should be doing daily.

[tritonxiv]

I don't know why I didn't mention OIL PULLING. In this thread yet. OIL PULLING. Look it up, because I have explained it many times and don't have time right now to explain it again. But it is an incredibly valuable thing to learn and make a habit of. Oil pulling--look it up and DO IT. Regardless of whether or not you have dental problems, this is something you should be doing daily.

The original poster mentioned it. Now that I've looked it up, there are quite a few reports of yellowing teeth from oil pulling. It may depend on the type of oil used, but I've never personally tried it, so I don't have much more to add.

[FSAS]

This is from Dr Mercola's site. A blurb article from Prevention magazine and then Mercola's additions

Dry Brushing Beats Dental Plaque

'Dry brushing' -- brushing teeth without toothpaste -- may be a more effective plaque remover than brushing with paste, one expert says. This study found that 128 individuals who dry-brushed over a six-month period saw plaque deposits on their back teeth drop by 67%, compared with plaque build up found on their teeth before the dry-brushing regimen began. Gum bleeding due to gingivitis (gum disease) also fell by 50%.

One should use a soft, dry brush which seems to scour away built-up bacterial plaque better than a moistened one. If bristles feel stiff, 'relax' them by running your thumb through them before brushing. Begin inside, finish out. The inner surfaces of the bottom row of teeth should be brushed first, before saliva buildup develops. Proceed to the inner top level of teeth next, then move to the outer surfaces. The dry-brushing process should take about a minute and a half.
Prevention September, 1997;49(9):45
Dr. Mercola's Comment:
I also learned the following technique from Dr. Doug Cook, one of the top environmental dentists in the country. It is the way I brush my teeth.
Use a dry Periodontal Health Brush (715-839-9103, I also have them in my office). Blot the brush at a 45 degree angle at the gum line about 20 times in each area around the mouth. Start behind the teeth first. You can rinse or snap dry the brush after each area to remove the bacteria and parasites. Then use a mixture of six parts of baking soda to one part of Real Salt or Sea Salt. Place in a blender and mix for 30 seconds then place in a container. Wet the tip of your index finger and place a SMALL amount of the salt and soda mixture on the gums. Starting with the upper outside gums and then the inside of the upper, followed by the lower outside of the gums then the lower inside. Spit out the excess. After 15 minutes rinse your mouth. This mixture is incredibly effective at killing the bacteria and parasites that cause plaque. Some dentist will even take a sample from your mouth and show you with a microscope the incredible difference prior to and after using this program and how it radically reduce the bacterial concentration in your gums. It is very important to improve periodontal health. And healthy gums means less teeth problems.

A description of technique from a NY Times article:

Brushing Guidelines. The following are some recommendations for brushing:

• Use a dry brush. One study reported that when people brushed their teeth without toothpaste first, using a soft dry brush, their plaque deposits were reduced by 67%, and gum bleeding dropped by 50%.
• No brush of any size, shape, or gimmick is effective if it is incorrectly positioned in the mouth. Place the brush where the gum meets the tooth, with bristles resting along each tooth at a 45-degree angle.
• Begin by dry brushing the inside the bottom row of teeth, then the inner top teeth, and last the outer surfaces.
• Wiggle the brush back and forth so the bristles extend under the gum line.
• Scrub the broad, biting surfaces of the back teeth.
• Dry brushing should take about a minute and a half.
• A paste is then applied, and the teeth should again be brushed in the same way.
• The tongue should be scrubbed for a total of about 30 seconds. A tongue scraper used with an anti-bacterial mouthwash (such as Listerine) is more effective than a toothbrush in removing bacteria.
• Rinse the toothbrush thoroughly and then tap it on the edge of the sink at least five times to get rid of debris.
• Flossing should finish the process. A mouthwash may also be used.

Some more links:
http://www.drbunn.com/faq/dry-brushing

http://www.wynman.com/link1e7.html This is an interview with a dentist who has some pretty interesting things to say, tons I'd never heard. He mentions Weston Price and other researchers and observers of cultures not/less influenced by the European cultures. And he brings up an interesting point about acids dissolve enamel and exposing the more sensitive dentin which people think is stains and what they need is harsher abrasives making the problem worse.

--------------------------
FSAS: You mention that your teeth were more sensitive and that's why you looked at your teeth. Have you been having more acidic things like lemon juice? ACV? What about diet sodas? And you aren't bulimic are you?

I've been looking for info on this periodontal health brush that both Mercola and Wynman recommend. I haven't found it yet, other than and ADA recommendation. No picture.

thankyou for all the info!
Actually yes, I've been drinking lemon water (often with spring water/mineral water with freshly squeezed lemon juice) everyday now. I use a straw though becuase I dont want it to touch my teeth. could the lemon being turning my teeth like this? Such a catch 22 , lemons are so good for you. I honestly dont know if I could give up drinking lemon water as it makes me feel great.

also I'm a bit curious regarding mouthwash (in general to those who mentioned it here).
Isn't listerine quite bad for the teeth? I avoided mouthwash because i just didnt know which one to use. is there are really effective ones that arent listerine?

I don't know why I didn't mention OIL PULLING. In this thread yet. OIL PULLING. Look it up, because I have explained it many times and don't have time right now to explain it again. But it is an incredibly valuable thing to learn and make a habit of. Oil pulling--look it up and DO IT. Regardless of whether or not you have dental problems, this is something you should be doing daily.

I oil pull everyday what oil would you recommend?

oh no guys, I'm convinced its the lemon water doing me no favors for my teeth. it does make a lot of sense because i try to drink 2 glasses a day sometimes its only one sometimes its 3 and started about 2 months ago. but it has made me feel a lot better and i think keeping inflammation to a minimum.

Is there a way around this? can i still drink lemon water? :/
gr. i find something that helps and its doing me harm in other ways..certainly cant win! haha.

Edited by FSAS, 03 August 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Binga]

You can brush ur teeth after drinking lemon water

[FSAS]

You can brush ur teeth after drinking lemon water

would that perhaps cause enamel loss? i was once told you shouldnt brush directly after acidic foods. then again i was told that ages ago so not sure how trustworthy it is.
i'll be using just baking soda from now on, i never brush straight after eating or drinking anything (thats not water) for some reason i had this thought in my head that teeth were weakest right after acidic things and to wait a bit so saliva has a chance to help out a bit, then to brush.
then again people chew gum after eating so i think im a little confused haha