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#41 Ben16

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 12:57 PM

Yes, I think you're right SweetJade.It's better to go to someone else for a second opinion instead of just getting another facial. There is this polyclinic I could go to, which does bloodtests and tries to find the diagnose of your skin condition instead of introducing a whole line of skin products so I might go there.My bloodresults from the hospital tests are not there yet but my doctor did say they had the urine results and there was nothing to worry about. Gotta call back by end of this week for the bloodresults, hopefully I'll be able to get the results on paper other than being told whatever verbally.
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic cords of memory will swell when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature."

#42 SweetJade1980

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 01:57 PM

Sadcaroline,
Yup, everything has an antiandrogenic effect orally that I mentioned. Some of these may be just as effective topically and possibly safer for those concerned with libido loss etc.

Also, in your PM you mentioned that you weren't Insulin Resistant. Well one of the articles talked about women with various types of PCOS and insulin resistance wasn't always one of their symptoms, but taking the drugs worked anyway. I'm still not certain if that is what I have as my values were normal according to my doctor, but taking the Avandia did lower my androgens and Diabetes Type II does run on my father's side of the family so at the very least I am susceptible.

BTW, your diet is so amazing I wouldn't know what to say about it (far better than mine). So perhap there may be some a form of a gland hyperplasia due to overstimulation going on that didn't get detected. I don't know if it's possible, but maybe due to the lack of norepinephrine, your adrenal could be working harder to produce it and as such raising your testosterone. Do you know what types of androgens are high and whether you are lacking dopamine, serotonin or norepinephrine? My high ones are DHEA (adrenal androgen) & Free Testosterone. Have you looked at these:
http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001165.htm
http://www.cancer.me...adrenalinfo.htm ? If that is the case than taking supplements that would help reduce the cell growth rate (inhibiting IGF-1 or Interleukin 6) such as boosting your glutathione with NAC or Silibin and taking Curcumin (tumeric) should help in more ways than one =)

http://psa-rising.co...ll/turmeric.htm


QUOTE
 
Int J Oncol. 2002 Oct;21(4):825-30.  Related Articles, Links 


Curcumin down-regulates AR gene expression and activation in prostate cancer cell lines.

Nakamura K, Yasunaga Y, Segawa T, Ko D, Moul JW, Srivastava S, Rhim JS.

Center for Prostate Disease Research, Department of Surgery, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, MD 20814, USA.

Curcumin, traditionally used as a seasoning spice in Indian cuisine, has been reported to decrease the proliferation potential of prostate cancer cells, by a mechanism that is not fully understood. In the current study, we have evaluated the effects of curcumin in cell growth, activation of signal transduction, and transforming activities of both androgen-dependent and independent cell lines. Prostate cancer cell lines, LNCaP and PC-3, were treated with curcumin and its effects were further analyzed on signal transduction and expression of androgen receptor (AR) and AR-related cofactors using transient transfection assay and Western blotting. Our results show that curcumin down-regulates transactivation and expression of AR, activator protein-1 (AP-1), nuclear factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB), and CREB (cAMP response element-binding protein)-binding protein (CBP). Curcumin also inhibited the transforming activities of both cell lines as evidenced by the reduced colony forming ability in soft agar. The results obtained here demonstrate that curcumin has a potential therapeutic effect on prostate cancer cells through down-regulation of AR and AR-related cofactors (AP-1, NF-kappaB and CBP). http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12239622 


HTH
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#43 sadcaroline

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 06:26 PM

hey jade!! i must of been asleep when i wrote my PM LOL.. i have HORRIBLE IR sad.gif i have been on glucophage for it, an i didnt like it. i dont like taking meds unless i have to. thats why i stay on such a strict diet, in hopes to stay off meds. i think you hit the nail on the head about the adrenal problem though. i think thats exactly whats off here. because its the only thing that is a real proble(the androgens) i had the vaginal ultra sound that is normal, all normal glucose testing, an all other hormones were also normal. its just the androgens, i cant remember which ones were off, but i can find out. my doc just said my 'male' hormones were too high. so if you dont mind, could you tell me what i can do naturally to help this? i just started taking turmeric today, what is the highest dose i can safely take? thanks so much in advance!!
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#44 sadcaroline

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 06:41 PM

thanks again for all your information jade.. i have really been thinking of going back to the endocriologist lateley, because we never tried to find out WHY my male hormones were off, i mean theyve got to be coming from something. if it is adrenal related, are their safe options for treatment? one doctor i read about uses low dose prednisone which id like to stay away from. id love anymore info you can offer, because i really feel my problem is adrenal.
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#45 sinashgh

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 07:09 PM

Sweet Jade, you seem to know a lot about this stuff. Your knowledge on this matter really does amaze me.
IS it possible for us to talk privately since i can't be bothered to read all this as most of it DOESN't concern me but i'm sure one or two parts of it can DRAMATICALLY help my situation as i'm very sure my acne is hormonal.

so can you please pm me and then i'll explain my situation to you??

I'll really appreciate it.

Also a lot of these terms i dont understand, I only know what testosterone is smile.gif i dont know what androgen or rest are.... one because english aint my second language even though I live in Canada and speak it everyday in school and two because i'm not smartest guy and not bookish at all. lol.

anyways i'll really apprecaite sweetjade or someone else who can kinda be like my Message Board Dermatologist and recommend me some stuff so i dont break out aftre ejaculation..... maybe by reducing testosterone or i dont konw what.

so please pm me.
thanks

#46 Ben16

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 03:41 AM

Oh Nice to be back again!

I think I'm gonna order opti zinc from Life Extension.The only thing which is bothering me is... it says:

Other ingredients: rice flour, gelatin, and water.

Other places selling opti zinc sometimes even note that it doesn't contain any gluten and since this one doesn't, I was wondering do you think gluten is one of the ingredients? Thanks
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic cords of memory will swell when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature."

#47 SweetJade1980

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 12:16 PM

QUOTE(Ben16 @ Sep 25 2004, 02:41 AM)
Oh Nice to be back again!

I think I'm gonna order opti zinc from Life Extension.The only thing which is bothering me is... it says:

Other ingredients: rice flour, gelatin, and water.

Other places selling opti zinc sometimes even note that it doesn't contain any gluten and since this one doesn't, I was wondering do you think gluten is one of the ingredients? Thanks

View Post



Ben,
Based on those ingredients, there's no reason for gluten to come close to being present. So if it's not listed, then it's OK. =)
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#48 evigrex

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 01:32 PM

QUOTE(sadcaroline @ Sep 20 2004, 04:26 PM)
hey jade!! i must of been asleep when i wrote my PM LOL.. i have HORRIBLE IR sad.gif i have been on glucophage for it, an i didnt like it. i dont like taking meds unless i have to. thats why i stay on such a strict diet, in hopes to stay off meds. i think you hit the nail on the head about the adrenal problem though. i think thats exactly whats off here. because its the only thing that is a real proble(the androgens) i had the vaginal ultra sound that is normal, all normal glucose testing, an all other hormones were also normal. its just the androgens, i cant remember which ones were off, but i can find out. my doc just said my 'male' hormones were too high. so  if you dont mind, could you tell me what i can do naturally to help this? i just started taking turmeric today, what is the highest dose i can safely take? thanks so much in advance!!

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How exactly are you insulin resistant if your glucose challenge tests are coming back normal? You've had the tests done multiple times too, from what I understand.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#49 sadcaroline

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 07:47 PM

evirex- To answer your question, I honestly dont know. I go to one of the top PCOS specialists in the world (i drive 3 states to see him). Its been a while since ive seen him, but once when i was there he explained why it doesnt show up on tests an I cant remember what he said. If you are really curious I'd be happy to call his office an have them explain it, seriously I'd love to know as well, because i cant remember for the life of me. I just remember him telling me that a good percentage (around 30% i think he siad) of girls with PCOS problems and or IR have 'normal' glucose tests like me. mine are always normal, but i have severe reactions to certain foods, I even have 'acanthosis nigricans' which are litterally the red flag for IR. People cant even have acanthosis nigricans without being either diabetic, or insulin resistant, and I have yet to have a test result showing an insulin problem. I was just lucky enough to find a specialist who deals in girls with normal lab results, but serious problems. My doctors practice is made of women from all over the world who have 'normal' lab results, but serious IR related problems. But regardless of what you read, it is completely possible for someone to have an insulin problem without it showing on a glucose test, even though it made seem unheard of, Dr Scott Sills will have more to say about it wink.gif
[image removed by sigbot--see board rules] Country music makes me horny

#50 SweetJade1980

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 12:02 AM

Sadcaroline,
Yeah it is odd huh, but the medication and associated dietary changes speak the truth. Remember that article I showed you (I'll post parts below), well it mentioned that even women with PCOS that were NOT Insulin Resistant still responded to taking Avandia or Glucophage. Considering that more disorders are being linked to this, I've come across articles where doctors aren't certain exactly how to classify or test for these new forms of insulin resistance.


QUOTE
There are, however, a number of women who do not fit the classic textbook definition of PCOS but who have many features which makes the diagnosis of PCOS the most appropriate one for them. We would term these women as having "Non-Classic PCOS".

For instance, instead of having very infrequent cycles, some women will have totally irregular bleeding with periods coming every two weeks, sometimes alternating with much longer cycles.

Other women with non-classic PCOS will have fairly normal cycles and increased androgen production will have a typical "poly-cystic" appearance of the ovary on ultrasound. A number of studies have shown that the presence of a poly-cystic appearing ovary is frequently associated with many of the other features of classical PCOS even though the women may not fit the true definition.

Another study has shown that there may be at least two different disorders associated with PCOS that, again, we would term "non-classic PCOS". The first of these (which I am not sure really falls under the category of PCOS) are women who are obese and hyperinsulinemic but not hyperandrogenic. Since we know that obesity produces insulin resistance by a different mechanism than classic PCOS, these women probably represent a totally different syndrome, although there may be considerable overlap.

The second type of non-classic PCOS would be those women who appear to be hyperandrogenic but are not insulin resistant and/or hyperinsulinemic.

Approximately two-thirds of all women with classic PCOS are overweight and, in this group of women, the majority are insulin resistant.

Approximately one-third of women with classic PCOS are of normal body weight but only about one-third of these women are insulin resistant. However, for reasons that have yet to be explained, most of these women will still respond to insulin sensitizing therapy. This probably means that our criteria for insulin resistance and the ways we have of measuring it are not sensitive enough.



LOL, below is other stuff I ended up posting while I was searching for the above info. Darn it's all so interesting that I would've posted everything, but that would have put you (and others) asleep. :mellow:


QUOTE
Abnormalities of glucose and insulin production also play a major role in this syndrome; this too must be evaluated. A baseline screen can be drawn anytime the woman is in the office, regardless of when she last ate. Measurement of the glucose/insulin ratio is then an easy calculation. If this ratio is less than 4.5, there is strong presumptive evidence of insulin resistance.

If the woman happens to be fasting at the time of her office visit (or has not eaten anything for at least 6 hours) then a fasting blood sugar and insulin level is also measured. If the fasting insulin level is over 20, insulin resistance is present.

A woman who shows evidence of insulin resistance should be evaluated with a two hour glucose tolerance test with insulin levels measured with each sugar level.

If you are going to have a glucose tolerance test, you should be "carbohydrate loaded" prior to the test to make it more accurate and valid. Carbohydrate loading means consuming at least 100 grams of carbohydrate everyday for three days prior to the test. This can be fairly easily accomplished by eating a couple of candy bars each day for those three days.

The glucose tolerance test must be carried out first thing in the morning. Performing a glucose tolerance test in the afternoon may yield different results and lead to erroneous conclusions.

You would come to the office fasting in the morning. Baseline blood studies would be drawn and you would then be given a bottle of concentrated sugar water to drink. This contains a standard amount of 75 grams of glucose.

Blood sugars and insulin levels are then drawn at the one-half hour, one hour, and two hour time periods.

Four different interpretations of a glucose tolerance test are possible. First, it could be completely normal.

Second, at the other end of the spectrum, you could already be overtly diabetic and perhaps not even suspect it.

There are two intermediate stages in which the glucose tolerance test is not normal but does not yet fulfill the criteria for diabetes. The first of these stages is called "Impaired Fasting Glucose." This diagnosis is made if the fasting blood sugar is over 110 but less than 126.

Impaired Glucose Tolerance is diagnosed if the two hour blood sugar is over 140 but less than 200 and the fasting blood sugar is normal (less than 126).

A diagnosis of diabetes is made if the fasting blood sugar is over 126 and/or the two hour blood sugar is over 200.

Abnormalities of adrenal function are also commonly seen in women with Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome but, as I have already noted in this pamphlet, women with the so-called adult onset form of adrenal hyperplasia may present with a clinical picture that is identical to Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome. If there is any strong suspicion that these women have a predominantly adrenal problem, consideration should be given to evaluating the adrenal gland specifically.

Clues that would indicate a possible adrenal problem would be a woman who has all of the clinical features of Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome but who also has a significantly elevated DHEAS level, an elevated 17 hydroxy Progesterone level, and who does not exhibit evidence of insulin resistance or any abnormality on a glucose tolerance test. A woman with the clinical features or PCOS but who ovulates regularly also needs to be tested for a possible adrenal problem.

Keep in mind that abnormalities of glucose metabolism and insulin resistance are a cardinal feature of Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome but are usually not seen in the other syndromes.

In women where there is a strong suspicion of an adrenal problem, a rapid ACTH stimulation test can be carried out. This test must be done right after a menstrual period has ended. The baseline 17 hydroxy Progesterone level is drawn and then 0.25 mg. of synthetic ACTH (Cortrosyn) is administered intravenously. A repeat 17 hydroxy Progesterone level is then drawn one hour later.

If the baseline 17 hydroxy Progesterone is over 200 or the 1 hour 17 hydroxy Progesterone is over 500, then a diagnosis of adrenal hyperplasia is warranted. If the 17 hydroxy Progesterone levels do not meet these critical levels, the woman probably has Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome with disturbances of adrenal function that are now recognized to be a part of PCOS.

Another problem that must also be thoroughly investigated is your cholesterol and other lipids. Women with Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome frequently have a significantly elevated cholesterol and this may be, in addition to their elevated insulin levels, another reason why there is an increased risk of cardiovascular disease and heart attacks later in life.

There is now good evidence that in diabetics (who are known to have an increased risk of heart attacks), an elevated insulin level is a separate risk factor, independent of anything else. It is, therefore, reasonable to conclude that the hyperinsulinemia seen in women with PCOS may be a similar risk factor. Although the data has not yet been published, it is certainly a reasonable conclusion that ought to at least be considered in the overall management.

Another important test is the measurement of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG). Hormones circulate in the blood attached to specific proteins. In the case of Estradiol and Testosterone, the main protein is SHBG although albumin and other proteins also bind the hormones as well.

It is now well established that decreased SHBG levels are a major predictor for the future development of Diabetes and alerts us as to who needs more careful monitoring.



QUOTE
As with any disease process, the most important factor is to first make the correct diagnosis and then to identify those problems that demand treatment. Women with PCOS have a number of problems including infrequent or complete lack of ovulation, increased androgen production, insulin resistance with altered glucose metabolism, and abnormalities of their various serum lipids including elevated cholesterol and elevated triglycerides.

In addition, the cosmetic problems associated with PCOS also demand therapy for many women including the problems of obesity, hirsutism, and acne.

My usual approach is to sit down with the woman and try to identify which problem bothers her the most and which problem should be the principal focus of our attention. Obviously, those problems which must be treated for reasons of health will not be ignored.

For most women with PCOS, insulin resistance will be a major focus of the treatment. Treating that specifically may ultimately allow the other problems to be almost self correcting. As I have mentioned elsewhere in this pamphlet, there are now reports of women treated with the various drugs that reduce insulin resistance but have permitted spontaneous ovulations and pregnancies to occur without any other therapy.

There are two main classes of drugs that are used to treat insulin resistance - Metformin (Glucophage) and the Thiazolidinediones, either Pioglitazone (Actos) or Rosglitazone (Avandia). Rezulin is no longer available.

Glucophage works on the liver to reduce glucose production and it undoubtedly has other mechanisms of action as well but they have not yet been fully elucidated.

The Thiazolidinediones work on muscle and other peripheral organs and directly produce a reduction in insulin resistance.

It is my personal opinion that the Thiazolidinediones are the better choice of drugs. Rezulin was the first of these drugs but its use has been curtailed because of the occurrence, albeit rare, of serious, sometimes fatal, liver damage.

The other drugs in this group - Actos and Avandia - so far have not shown any evidence of liver toxicity but they are being monitored very carefully because no one knows what the long-term effects may be.

Reducing insulin resistance will ultimately lead to a reduction in serum insulin levels. This, in turn, will reduce ovarian androgen production and allow resumption of ovulation and regular menstrual cycles. Women with PCOS have conceived on one of these drugs with no other therapy necessary.

The reduction in serum insulin levels should also help lower your serum cholesterol although specific cholesterol lowering drugs may also have to be employed.

As I have also pointed out, we have known for many years that women with PCOS are at greater risk to develop gestational diabetes and, later, overt adult onset type diabetes. It is everyone's fervent hope that early intervention with these drugs that reduce insulin resistance may either prevent or significantly delay the development of diabetes later in life.



QUOTE
A fairly common but often unrecognized part of androgen disorders in women is called the HAIR-AN Syndrome. It is important to understand this syndrome, particularly for those women who may have it.

The term "HAIR-AN" is an acronym for three phrases. The HA stands for HyperAndrogenism.

The IR stands for Insulin Resistance.

The AN stands for Acanthosis Nigricans.

HyperAndrogenism simply means that the woman has either clinical evidence, laboratory evidence, or both, of increased androgen production. Women with this syndrome usually exhibit significant hirsutism, significant menstrual irregularities, and they are usually significantly overweight.

The insulin resistance refers to the fact that many women with this syndrome have a very insulin resistant form of diabetes. Whether this is related to their obesity or is an inherent part of the syndrome is uncertain. It is probably the latter, based on what has been learned over the past few years.

Acanthosis Nigricans is a peculiar pigmentation of the skin characterized by a velvety brownish black areas most commonly seen around the neck, but it can also be seen under the arms and under the breast.

Women who have Acanthosis Nigricans are very frequently upset about it because they think their neck is dirty and they spend a great deal of time trying to wash it away. They are usually quite relieved to learn that the discoloration is not dirt, but simply a reflection of their endocrine problem.

I have had a number of women over the years who have come in with significant irregularity in their menstrual cycles accompanied by significant hirsutism and other evidence of excess androgen production. When I detect the presence of Acanthosis Nigricans, this is often the first clue that these women are diabetic or insulin resistant as well - something that was often not detected prior to their coming to see me.

No one fully understands exactly how this problem develops and what the link is. Certainly it is known that people who are significantly overweight develop insulin resistant diabetes. This is different than the more common forms of diabetes in that controlling the blood sugar is often quite difficult.

One theory holds that the obesity leads to insulin resistance. These women have elevated serum insulin levels as a result.

The theory then states that the excess insulin stimulates increased ovarian androgen production. Of course, increased androgens will often cause a woman to gain weight which then puts you on to the merry-go-round.

Unfortunately, even though the HAIR-AN Syndrome is easy to diagnose, it is often very difficult to treat. None-the-less, many people with a particular medical problem find it very comforting learning exactly what their problem is even though therapy will not always be readily available.

Reversing the insulin resistance with the drugs now available often lessens the amount of the Acanthosis.

Current research indicates that the HAIR-AN syndrome is probably an uncommon but severe subset of PCOS with exaggerated symptoms of those problems normally seen in PCOS.






I honestly don't know what I am either as my blood tests for those risk factors come up normal. My doctor always said I was either Insulin Resistant or PCOS, but since they are treated with the same medication it didn't matter. Plus on my father's side Type II Diabetes exists so that's why I usually say I am Insulin Resistant, although I can definately see how I can have the HAIR-AN Variant of PCOS. That article also mentioned how PCOS & NCCAH can be very similar, but I came up normal on Adrenal tests. My cortisol is normal not to high, not too low. It's not my thyroid or my cholesterol levels. I was also tested for NCCAH 2x and came up normal. Yet my problems are that I have high DHEA levels (normal DHEAS) and High Free Tesotsterone levels (normal testosterone) which probably means I have Low SHBG, but I've never had that tested (plan too).

Hmm, the sad thing is that if we have PCOS or IR and we aren't obese than it's genetic, especially for African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, and possibly Asain Americans. That means that for all those men that have been ignoring our posts, PCOS is not just a woman's hormonal disorder, males carry the genes too but don't express them in the same way a female would as...they don't mensturate. I remember reading elsewhere that males can have PCOS and that article said a good indicator would be early balding. Another indicator for males with hyperandrogenism would be that they "simply" have acne.

As for suggestions I really liked Avandia over glucophage, but it may add weight to you (I was happy though). You can try taking NAC (currently testing myself), Buckwheat Farinetta (just bought some of this), Cinnamon (yeah it lowers blood sugar), Green Tea and I'm sure there's a few more. Of coure, I'm sure you don't want to take that many, but some you can use as food (green tea & buckwheat) and the others as supps. As for the curcumin/turmeric I'll have to check for a dosage, but how are you doing on it so far?

Bye for now
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#51 Trinity45

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 12:18 PM

I went ahead and ordered the Natrol Ultimate Anti-oxidant formula as recommended by Elixir because I too am tired of ingesting so many pills at once. I received it but am upset that the form of 25mg Zinc are (as Zinc: Malate, Citrate, Fumarate, Succinate). So I'm thinking about returning because of this. What do you guys think?

#52 calista

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 06:14 PM

Sweetjade,
How are those new supplements working for you? I just bought some Neptune Krill Oil by Jarrow, and I wanted to see if you were already having good results with this. I hope it helps me because i have tried fish oil and cod liver oil twice and can not be real certain if it led to some breakouts i had shortly after.
thanks for your help



#53 SweetJade1980

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 03:52 PM

QUOTE(Trinity45 @ Sep 28 2004, 11:18 AM)
I went ahead and ordered the Natrol Ultimate Anti-oxidant formula as recommended by Elixir because I too am tired of ingesting so many pills at once. I received it but am upset that the form of 25mg Zinc are (as Zinc: Malate, Citrate, Fumarate, Succinate).  So I'm thinking about returning because of this. What do you guys think?

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Trinity,
Well I honestly don't know how effective those forms would be, but if you are taking it perhaps you can tell us your results. Also, if you don't notice results perhaps you wouldn't mind adding an extra 15 - 25mg of Zinc in the form of gluconate or monomethione to aid you.

Best of luck =)
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#54 SweetJade1980

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE(calista @ Oct 2 2004, 05:14 PM)
Sweetjade,
How are those new supplements working for you? I just bought some Neptune Krill Oil by Jarrow, and I wanted to see if you were already having good results with this. I hope it helps me because i have tried fish oil and cod liver oil twice and can not be real certain if it led to some breakouts i had shortly after.
thanks for your help

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Well, I was taking the NKO for a week but noticed that my stomach was grumbling a lot and so I stopped. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the NKO and had everything to do with the fact that when I stopped consuming almonds (my skin was happy) I lost a good source fiber =( So now I'm trying to add more veggies in my diet so that I can replace what was lost. The good thing is that my body is excellent at indicating whenever I'm messing up in the nutrient dept. So it makes me attempt to do all the right things I shoud for it ;-)

As for the NAC, I'm still testing this one out but I haven't noticed any negative side effects. I plan on testing the R-ALA next week, but with this one you have to take it with food or it's not really effective for what it does (reduce / stabalizes insulin response). Oh but as for the NKO I had no negative effects nor any fishy after taste from it. It helped with my dandruff some, but I wasn't taking it long enough to determine any other results. I just have to balance out my fiber first and then I'm going back on it.

What do you think of it?
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#55 calista

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 06:31 PM

Hey sweetjade,
thanks for responding. i haven't tried the NKO yet. i am actually a bit afraid right now because i havent had the best experience with fish oils. i started with twinlabs capsules (about 9 a day) and i thoguht that helped. but i stil wasnt perfectly clear. then i tried carlson fish oil, garden of life cod liver oil, with and w/o raw butter and it was weird. some areas of my face were perfectly clear and sooo smoth. then i started to get red inflamed pimples on my right cheek.

so i quit all dairy again, the cod liver oil, and the butter. the inflammation went down a little, but i still have a couple of active pimples and the ones that are finally gone have left red purple marks. it really sucks. my face hasnt looked this bad since almost high school. i know a lot of it is stress to. i have been anxious and a little depressed lately. i just didnt think it would show up on my face like this.

i realized i wasnt having "good" bowel movements to. i'd go everyday but just not completely i guess. i started taking triphala and that wroks pretty good. i like it better than swedish bitters. then i bought a turmeric/ginger ayurvedic formula that says its good for your liver, blood, and skin. i just know i need soemthing because gluten free or low carb isnt cutting it anymore. i also wasnt getting the best results with garden of life super seed fiber formula. can you recommend a good fiber supplement. it seems you have the same issue that once you keep cutting out offending foods you're left to find another way to get that additional fiber.
good luck with the NAC. keep us posted:)

#56 TOGirl75

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:32 PM

Anyone ever heard of Udo's Oil? Supposed to better than Flaxseed Oil and Evening Primrose Oil.

#57 bryan

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 05:03 PM

SweetJade asked me to post these comments here in this thread (I had previously posted them in a different one):

1) "B5". To my major consternation, I see that everyone in this forum, and I mean EVERYONE, insists on using the popular expression "B5" instead of the CORRECT one, which is "pantothenic acid". There is no such thing as "B5". In a place where highly technical issues are discussed like androgen receptors, numerous steroidogenic enzymes, complex fatty acid metabolism, the physiology and anatomy of the pilosebaceous unit, etc. etc., it sticks out like a sore thumb when people use a made-up term like "B5"! Don't you think we should stick to the same precise terminology that doctors and scientists use?? (Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. I was about to burst like a fat-laden sebaceous cell! )

2) "Well accutane is so effective because of it's anti-androgen and anti- IGF-1 abilities." I'm a little puzzled by that statement. I admit that it's been quite a while since I've looked at any Accutane material, but my understanding is that its mechanism of action in sharply reducing the size of sebaceous glands and lowering sebum production is still largely unknown. YES, I've read a few studies describing its effects at reducing the production of androgen receptors and inhibiting 5a-reductase, but my understanding is that those are really just secondary effects.

3) EGCG (from green tea). I've previously commented on this one. EGCG is poorly absorbed from the GI tract, so it's extremely doubtful to me that the consumption of green tea would have any significant effect at inhibiting 5a-reductase. In this day and age when drug companies have spent untold hundreds of millions of $$$ in the development of drugs to do that reliably and efficiently, I think we would have all heard about it by now if the simple consumption of this ancient bevarge had any impact whatsoever on DHT levels in our bodies. Having said all that, I think there is still a quite reasonable possibility that the TOPICIAL application of EGCG to the skin or scalp can have such an effect. In fact, there's at least one animal study and one small human trial which demonstrated that (citations available on request).

4) Equol. I would expect the response to equol (should it ever actually become available) to be virtually identical to the common (and cheaper) synthetic 5a-reductase inhibitors like finasteride and dutasteride.

5) "Now the theory is that since Type II inhibitors work best for Prostate & Androgenic Alopecia, that Type I inhibitors will work best for Hirsuitism and Acne." Huh?? The type II enzyme is almost certainly the major one involved in BOTH androgenetic alopecia AND hirsutism. BTW, I'll mention here once again the very recent study which found that Merck's experimental drug MK386, a specific type I inhibitor, had no effect on acne (citation available on request).

6) Zinc and B6. I see that people on this site are as obsessed with those two nutrients as people on the hairloss sites! However, the interest in those seem to stem mainly from the well-known Stamatiadis study, which was purely in vitro. The implication in that thread seems to be that taking those nutrients ORALLY is somehow going to help acne. I think scientific evidence for that is entirely lacking, unless someone can cite something for me. Furthermore, I see that there is also discussion about the FORM of B6 (pyridoxine vs. pyridoxal). I'm puzzled by the general insistence for using pyridoxal over pyridoxine; the form which was clearly shown to enhance the activity of zinc against 5a-reductase in the Stamatiadis study was PYRIDOXINE, not pyridoxal! The interest in pyridoxal appears to stem from that oddball in vitro Croation study, which I don't find to be as compelling or as credible as the Stamatiadis study. Finally, even though I doubt that taking supplementary ORAL zinc/B6 (whatever the form) will have a measurable effect on DHT production in the skin/scalp, I suppose that a TOPICAL application could conceivably have such an effect. We need research in that area.

7) "Copper - Both a Type I & Type II inhibitor..." Yes, but like zinc, only in an in vitro study. I strongly doubt that oral supplements of copper would have any measurable effect on DHT in our bodies.

8) Saw palmetto. That stuff has been much-discussed, but the fact remains that oral supplements have no measurable effect on serum DHT levels (citations available on request). I suppose it's possible that TOPICAL applications could have a direct effect on skin/scalp.

9) Gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) and EPA. These two are my real hot-buttons. I want everyone on this site to STOP QUOTING THEM AS BEING 5a-REDUCTASE INHIBITORS. They only do that in their "free" form, not when incorporated into triglycerides in natural oils like borage, black currant, evening primrose, cod liver, flaxseed, etc. Furthermore, they would have to be applied TOPICALLY in their "free" form, not swallowed as a supplement. There are at least a couple of studies (citations available on request) which found that supplementary oral GLA wasn't able to stop the production of DHT. I personally am profoundly interested in the potential use of TOPICAL fatty acids for androgen-dependent disorders like acne and androgenetic alopecia, but thinking that you can get that to work by taking supplements of borage oil, etc., is just wishful thinking.

All comments, questions, and flames about the above points are welcome! eusa_angel.gif

Bryan

#58 pmezak

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:01 PM

Hey Bryan,
As to #9, I just read about using "neem oil" dabbed directly on acne.
Son is trying it just for a night or two. Would be interesting if it helped.
Let you know later.

#59 Ben16

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 08:49 AM

I tried zinc already and it didnt work, time for something else!

I am thinking about ordering some Flaxseed oil or maybe GLA, has anyone had good results with those? What do you think of the following products and would you recommend taking them to battle acne?

http://www.lef.org/n.../item00756.html

http://www.lef.org/n.../item00463.html
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic cords of memory will swell when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature."

#60 moonagedaydream

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 02:10 AM

Hi all, (with a question for Torbosk particularly)

I'm completely new on the board and having some familiarity with forums, I know how the new guy looks like a moron dropping in on the conversation - but I've just gotta.

First question: DHT. What does that stand for? Why I ask is Torbosk, you mentioned it as a cause of hair loss. I found it interesting that "hair loss" is being mentioned on a forum about acne - two of my major concerns these days. I'm perplexed lately by the weird conditions I have and keep trying to figure it out - why am I a 22-year-old girl losing huge amounts of hair every time I shower?? I have also heard people mention "folliculitus" in relation to acne, and I keep getting this weird feeling I have all the dots and I haven't figured out how to connect them yet. I have acne, I have eczema and extremely sensitive skin, and I have a very itchy scalp (no dandruff) that I must assume is the cause of my hair loss. Is it this "DHT" or androgens or whatnot? When I scratch my scalp, it feels like the oily buildup that one squeezes out of a blackhead so I figure my scalp has the same condition as my face - pores blocked with sebum.

Second question: Evening Primrose Oil. (yes, again.) I am controlling my eczema by making my own hand creams using evening primrose oil, beeswax, natural oils etc. and I KNOW that ingredients from nature are the only thing of benefit to me, so based on some research I too decided to start taking evening primrose oil supplements. So far, it has only been a week so I'm not leaping to conclusions (just praying) that the results I see so far ARE so good - I'm seeing improvement for the first time since trying a slew of things out there. Anyone else have good results with EPO? I also use a moisturizer of light oils in which I've included EPO, so this may have something to do with it (sounds like Bryan finds topical use of these things the only effective cure, but I've been using this mixture for months now and only since taking the supplement have I seen any substantial improvement).

So, anyway I'm making an all too circuitious path to my two questions for anybody -

How does acne relate to hair loss and hormones and has anyone found a cure encompassing both problems? and
Anyone had actual success with evening primrose oil supplements or application?

Guess it's time for bed since I can't write right to the point and the headphones are driving the cartilage in my ears into my brain so goodbye! If no one replies to this I'll try starting a new thread.

Thanks,
S eusa_eh.gif