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undermethylation, histimine, squalene...

vitamin vitamins vitamin b vitamin b5 folic acid zinc gluten depression

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#1 nick_vw

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:44 PM

ok, so I am an acne sufferer who has very little inflamed acne issues @ 24 years old, however, since puberty ive been dealing with excessive clogged pores on my back, shoulders, chest, and face (at one point i would think every single pore on my back was clogged with a sticky waxy skin oil plug)

I've tirelessly researched and *tried to pin point a cause. Wheat (gluten), milk have no effect. low GI had minimal effect which rebounds as soon as you start to eat normally. Vitamin b5 reduces output, but makes you sick (and doesn't really change the underlying issue of STICKY sebum)

I realised omega 3 oils were making it worse, and upon research i realised i was putting way too much emphasis into omega 3's when really, i needed Gamma linoleic acid (omega 6, evening primrose) Don't demonize omega 6, its essential (some lack ability to convert linoleic acid into gamma linoleic acid and end up with dermatitis, depression, acne etc) this helps quite a bit, but not the key to the puzzle.

I found an article relating to depression, and under/overmethylation. its to do with sulphur basically. Undermethylated people tend to have compulsive tendancies, depression, many allergies due to HIGH histamine. I was tested, and yes my histamine was quite high.


Well, another link i found later was about the lipid content of people with and without acne. It can be found here:Sebum Analysis

basically, squalene content was higher in acne patients. Free fatty acids (linoleic acid) was a bit lower. Hmmm, squalene...?

why would this be higher, other studies show squalene to be the cause of comedo (blackhead) formation. So i found another study: Identification of histamine....

, this time it found the relationship between h1 receptors (histamine) and sebum. The use of benadryl (diphedraminne sp?) reduced sebum squalene content, and was thought to be a good path for acne research.

So here i am with all the symptoms of an under-methylated individual, with this clogged pore issue for 13 years now. I am going to get some methionine, inositol, zinc, and more lipoic acid along with a good b complex NOT containing folic acid.

Read the links, am i on to something here?

Edited by nick_vw, 20 August 2011 - 12:47 PM.


#2 Thehoper

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 03:00 PM

Sounds legit to me. Keep us updated let us know your progess. and what's the deal with folic acid?

#3 alternativista

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 03:44 PM

well, first, eating normally for a human should be low to moderate GL. Not doing so is the root cause of most of the degenerative health conditions our sickly culture suffers from and speeds aging.

Second there's been a lot of talk on squalene, GLA, Omega 3's etc on sebum and their affect on sebum that works properly and make your skin glow versus sticky sebum that looks greasy and clogs pores.

And on histamine, natural anti-histamines and foods that contain histamine. And, in case you were considering it, it's been a recurring fad a couple of times to take OTC or prescription anti-histamines for acne, (Zantac, I think?) and the end result is always that it's not a good thing to do long term.

See the sections on sebum quality and food intolerances for info on the other things, and maybe you'll find the brain/mood section useful as well:

http://www.acne.org/...es-t230714.html

But I never really absorbed info on methylation/under methylation even though we've had a few members post about it. Perhaps I need to gather some info for the Brain/mood section.


Edited by alternativista, 20 August 2011 - 03:47 PM.


#4 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 03:56 PM

from what i remember about methylation reactions, many vitamins are involved. its an important process for dna transcription and repair. these are very precise events im not sure how they relate to acne.

b12 i think is a major factor for methylation, in the form of methylcobalamin, i think its very name is due to its role in methylation.

there are three forms of b12- methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, and hydroxocobalamin. in my opinion, which is pretty factual either way, clams are the best and highest source of b12. our bodys seem to store the majority of b12 in the form of adenosylcobalamin.


im not really that clear on this issue, but hopefully some of this info may help.


about that histamine/sebum study you provided, there are tons of studys that say similar things on the same topic, some "pathway" could "potentially" influence the sebum gland directly. Much of science is endless messing around and tinkering for knowledge that may, or may not be useful at all.

you could say the same things about studys messing with ppar ligands or whatever in the desire to develop some drug to manipulate sebum production. all in a speculative stage of tinkering of what MIGHT be.

perhaps its more useful to know that vitamin c is a histamine regulator? but that will not cure your acne im sure either, but may improve it.

here is my view of science, they are gathering more information ever getting closer to defining the state some phenomena, always collecting more facts about the physical state of the molecules to provide a scientific(objective/physical) explanation.Yet it is one important step to be able to define something very precisely down to the molecular/cellular makeup, yet it may be another important step to say how something has entered into that particular state, and how it might be reversed or improved to a more desirable state. im not really sure of the point of me typing all this is, but hopefully it helps you or anybody else. but i wouldnt over emphasize the value of scientific methods and scientific explanations, science it just one method to go about answering a question and finding stuff out, one method that has been successful for many fields of study, but one that may fall short at time when explaining some health issues, with my definition of "explaining: to mean- what the hell can i do about this that will work. you will not find those types of answers in studys, well not in so many words.


I hope i dont come off as sounding like im dissing science or anything, i just want it to be understood for what it is, and never over hyped or underhyped. science will eventually prevail though.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 20 August 2011 - 04:29 PM.


#5 alternativista

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 04:34 PM

QUOTE (AutonomousOne1980 @ Aug 20 2011, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
about that histamine/sebum study you provided, there are tons of studys that say similar things on the same topic, some "pathway" could "potentially" influence the sebum gland directly. Much of science is endless messing around and tinkering for knowledge that may, or may not be useful at all.

you could say the same things about studys messing with ppar ligands or whatever in the desire to develop some drug to manipulate sebum production. all in a speculative stage of tinkering of what MIGHT be.

perhaps its more useful to know that vitamin c is a histamine regulator? but that will not cure your acne im sure either, but may improve it.


I think vitamin C improved my acne. I always hoped it would help my constantly stuffy feeling nose, but no such luck there.
There are many studies that find that some form of inflammatory response is at the root of acne formation. Usually delayed type reactions involving different antibodies than the IgE that most allergists are concerned with. And there's more to inflammatory response than histamine and antibodies. There's more info in this in threads found in my Good Things lists. And here:
http://www.acne.org/...18#entry3103418

I always meant to read up more on the PPARs connection. There's links to some good threads on that under Hyperkeratinization.


#6 nick_vw

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:20 PM

the problem is clogged pores has nothing to do with inflammation/infection, yet all acne treatments focus on it.

why is the sebum thick, why is it not flowing as it should? the link posted shows a clear link between squalene and acne. why is there more squalene? what regulates it?

also, niacin. the recent company that claimed a "cure" to thick sebum (ultimately acne) that i believe members here traced back to being plain old niacin as a main ingredient. Good/bad? it lowers cholesterol, is there some connection there?

something is going on with my sebum production for a long time now and im hell bent on sorting it out, but it takes a lot of focus and reading...and checking sources. at 24 its obvious i'm not going to grow out of it eusa_think.gif

#7 03GT

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:03 PM

I explored this at one time. I took Sam-e instead of methionine. Unfortunately, my acne or my 'brain fog' did not improve.

#8 alternativista

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 08:59 AM

QUOTE (nick_vw @ Aug 20 2011, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the problem is clogged pores has nothing to do with inflammation/infection, yet all acne treatments focus on it.


Not quite. Yes, It has little to do with infection and the bacteria is by far the least important factor in acne. But chronic inflammation is at the root of acne formation just like it is most health conditions. Among other things, it causes malformed cells to be formed that do not exfoliate correctly. Hyperkeratinization: http://www.acne.org/...p...t&p=2580171 Inflammation: http://www.acne.org/...p...t&p=2574309

Sebum Quality: http://www.acne.org/...p...t&p=2637530



#9 alternativista

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 04:40 PM

Perhaps you should look at the Epigenetics thread: http://www.acne.org/...cs-t297768.html I looked into epigenetics and acne and what I found had to do with methylation. And of course, inflammatory response.

I just found a post I wrote back in July in which I was apparently looking into methylation and found it can affect your seratonin and melatonin production.

Also, I suppose I should mention that MSM breaks some people out. It caused me to have a weird acne all up and down my back from hairline to butt. And it's still not completely gone. Also, if you have depression issues, then SAMe is probably better for you anyway. You should also eat sulfur rich plant foods.

Edited by alternativista, 21 August 2011 - 07:50 PM.


#10 nick_vw

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:40 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Aug 21 2011, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps you should look at the Epigenetics thread: http://www.acne.org/...cs-t297768.html I looked into epigenetics and acne and what I found had to do with methylation. And of course, inflammatory response.

I just found a post I wrote back in July in which I was apparently looking into methylation and found it can affect your seratonin and melatonin production.

Also, I suppose I should mention that MSM breaks some people out. It caused me to have a weird acne all up and down my back from hairline to butt. And it's still not completely gone. Also, if you have depression issues, then SAMe is probably better for you anyway. You should also eat sulfur rich plant foods.


thanks for the link

afaik eggs seem to have the most potent dose of methionine, and other sulphur components. I use sam-e but its hit/miss i think with its unstable nature. Methionine is cheaper, then theres TMG.

with undermethylation they seem to focus on antifolates, clacium/magnesium/zinc/methionine. I realised my b complex and my multivitamin have a good shot of folic acid in them (like 800 mcg each) plus any food source folate in a day. Cant find a b complex without folic acid though.

#11 alternativista

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 08:38 AM

QUOTE (nick_vw @ Aug 21 2011, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Aug 21 2011, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps you should look at the Epigenetics thread: http://www.acne.org/...cs-t297768.html I looked into epigenetics and acne and what I found had to do with methylation. And of course, inflammatory response.

I just found a post I wrote back in July in which I was apparently looking into methylation and found it can affect your seratonin and melatonin production.

Also, I suppose I should mention that MSM breaks some people out. It caused me to have a weird acne all up and down my back from hairline to butt. And it's still not completely gone. Also, if you have depression issues, then SAMe is probably better for you anyway. You should also eat sulfur rich plant foods.


thanks for the link

afaik eggs seem to have the most potent dose of methionine, and other sulphur components.


Also have Spinach, broccoli, cabbage, and related veggies, onions, garlic... They also contain sulfurophane a potent antioxident and good for liver function.


#12 alternativista

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:32 PM

Some good info on nutrients needed for fat metabolism and quality sebum in the article on acne formation:

http://www.iinr.org/...eports/ACNE.PDF

#13 DeAntonio

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 08:14 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Aug 30 2011, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some good info on nutrients needed for fat metabolism and quality sebum in the article on acne formation:

http://www.iinr.org/...eports/ACNE.PDF


nice.

first i'm hearing of niacinamide in regards to acne though, gonna have to check that out. you take it?

#14 alternativista

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:39 AM

QUOTE (DeAntonio @ Aug 30 2011, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Aug 30 2011, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some good info on nutrients needed for fat metabolism and quality sebum in the article on acne formation:

http://www.iinr.org/...eports/ACNE.PDF


nice.

first i'm hearing of niacinamide in regards to acne though, gonna have to check that out. you take it?


Not in any high dose. It's in my multi. And i use it topically by mixing it with aloe, green tea and whatever oil, lately olive and/or coconut. I've stopped buying any specifically for my skin.

It's also in many Paula's Choice and olay products. And in the prescription acne med nicomide which is an oral and a topical.

#15 alternativista

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 12:56 PM

Statement I found somewhere but since closed the page so don't have a link and any specifics the article gave. It was about glycation, though.


QUOTE
Living A Long And Healthy Life

The evidence is strong that glycation is closely involved in most if not all degenerative diseases and in aging. Dealing with this and the three other ‘-ations’ – methylation, oxidation and inflammation- should be a priority for anyone concerned with living a fulfilling life with minimal illness.