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#41 onefatalgoose

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:19 AM

And this forum is filled with people for whom it didn't work. And with people who chose not to use medicines that cause harm.

 

This forum is also filled with people who haven't made much progress with their acne in years. So not much of an argument.

 

 

I believe the argument here is still that benzoyl peroxide works for some, and doesn't for others.  And for the people it does work for, they are still subjecting their skin to extremely high levels of oxidative stress, which causes the redness, dryness, itchiness, and long term skin damage from free radicals.  So...while it may be effective at treating acne for many people, it comes with a price.  

 

The same can be said for most if not all modern medicines.  They may serve the purpose they are prescribed for, but they come with a whole host of side-effects that interfere with other important metabolic processes.  They are band-aid fixes, and most illness/disease can be prevented and even reversed via proper nutrition and avoidance of toxic foods so commonly found in the western diet.  

 

Also, what about green tea cream?  Apparently there was a study conducted by a Dr. Jennifer Gan-Wong from the Memorial Medical Center in the Philippines that showed a 3% concentration of green tea cream was as effective at treating acne as a 4% concentration of benzoyl peroxide.  I wish i could find the actual study itself.  It is cited repeatedly, but i'd still love to see the study.  I think you have to pay a monthly fee to get access to some of these studies, which is unfortunate.  



#42 sepsi

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:38 PM

I believe the argument here is still that benzoyl peroxide works for some, and doesn't for others.  And for the people it does work for, they are still subjecting their skin to extremely high levels of oxidative stress, which causes the redness, dryness, itchiness, and long term skin damage from free radicals.  So...while it may be effective at treating acne for many people, it comes with a price.  

 

The same can be said for most if not all modern medicines.  They may serve the purpose they are prescribed for, but they come with a whole host of side-effects that interfere with other important metabolic processes.  They are band-aid fixes, and most illness/disease can be prevented and even reversed via proper nutrition and avoidance of toxic foods so commonly found in the western diet.  

 

Also, what about green tea cream?  Apparently there was a study conducted by a Dr. Jennifer Gan-Wong from the Memorial Medical Center in the Philippines that showed a 3% concentration of green tea cream was as effective at treating acne as a 4% concentration of benzoyl peroxide.  I wish i could find the actual study itself.  It is cited repeatedly, but i'd still love to see the study.  I think you have to pay a monthly fee to get access to some of these studies, which is unfortunate.  

 

 

I'm not arguing against the statement that BP has side-effects, or that it's an oxidizing agent and causes oxidative damage in the skin. I argue against black and white thinking that's so prevalent here. I argue against statements like 'BP causes oxidative damage, therefore it's automatically bad and should be shunned'.
 
Here's the point that argument misses. ACNE itself causes a lot of oxidative damage on the skin. So if something reduces acne it most likely reduces inflammation in the skin.
 
The way I see it is that BP causes little oxidative damage to prevent bigger damage from occuring. This is evident from the fact that for many people, but not for everybody, acne goes away and skin becomes less red and irritated when they use BP.
 
I'm the first person to admit that BP can also make your skin worse. If you use too much of it or the concentration is too strong. And with moisturizers or antioxidant creams you can mitigate the damage even further.
 
If you can find a natural cream that gets the same results, then fantastic. So far there has been done, and I'm pretty up to date with research on acne. As I said, there are some promising candidates, like niacin and vitamin C derivates. Green tea catechins might also work, but so far the studies have been way too small and inconclusive to say for sure.
 
I'm not aware of the study you are referring to. This is the latest green tea related acne study in the PubMed index:
 


#43 alternativista

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:03 AM



And this forum is filled with people for whom it didn't work. And with people who chose not to use medicines that cause harm.

 
This forum is also filled with people who haven't made much progress with their acne in years. So not much of an argument.
It has a few people that haven't made much progress, including some who have real health issues. Most people who clear their skin stop posting regularly. But the forum is filled with how I cleared my skin threads.

Edited by alternativista, 22 February 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#44 alternativista

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:48 PM

The value of green tea/EGCG has been known for a while, but this study identifies several factors affected by topical EGCG

Epigallocatechin-3-Gallate Improves Acne in Humans by Modulating Intracellular Molecular Targets and Inhibiting P. acnes.
[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed?term=Yoon JY[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=23096708]Yoon JY


Source
Acne Research Laboratory, Seoul National University Hospital, Seoul, South Korea.



Abstract

Acne vulgaris is a highly prevalent skin disorder characterized by hyperseborrhea, inflammation, and Propionibacterium acnes overgrowth. Only isotretinoin and hormonal therapy reduce sebum production. To identify a new drug candidate that modulates sebum, we examined the effects of EGCG, the major polyphenol in green tea, on human SEB-1 sebocytes and in patients with acne. In SEB-1 sebocytes, we found that EGCG reduced sebum by modulating the AMPK-SREBP-1 signaling pathway. EGCG also reduces inflammation by suppressing the NF-κB and AP-1 pathways. EGCG also induces cytotoxicity of SEB-1 sebocytes via apoptosis and decreases the viability of P. acnes, thus targeting almost all the pathogenic features of acne. Finally, and most importantly, EGCG significantly improved acne in an 8-week randomized, split-face, clinical trial, and was well tolerated. Our data provide a therapeutic rationale for the use of EGCG in acne.


 



#45 sepsi

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:39 AM

The value of green tea/EGCG has been known for a while, but this study identifies several factors affected by topical EGCG

 

There are also a few other green tea studies. The problem is that none of them are definitive. The study you referred was mostly in vitro, though it also had an in vivo part. These studies are interesting and provide some evidence for green tea and EGCG but the problem is that they don't have proper controls. Once we see a few studies with 100 or so participants that compare EGCG cream to BP head to head then I can say that there's reasonably good evidence for it. Such studies exists for vitamin B3 and vitamin C derivates.



#46 Binga

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:46 AM

I would also add topical vitamin b5 to the list. It was greatly reduced the oiliness in my face if not acne. If there is a moisturizer with high amounts of B5, B3, C, E, zinc, EGCC, Thyme and hyalauronic acid then there should not be any chance of acne at all.


Edited by Binga, 25 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#47 alternativista

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:34 PM

This article about a study involving the mapping of the genomes and identifying several different strains od P. Acnes finds a strain predominant in clear skin. Theorizes that it provides protection against harmful microbes in the skin similar to the way beneficial flora do in your intestines.

http://news.sciencem...er-.html?ref=hp

#48 alternativista

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:56 PM

In addition to the many ways diet and lifestyle affects your acne by affecting the function of the various organs involved in managing hormones and inflammation: liver, gut, adrenals, thyroid, brain, etc.  There are some pathways and systems involved.  Both of the below are studies looking into how isotretinoin tends to clear acne.  Because they've been prescribing it to children for a couple of decades without really know what it does.
 
mTORC1 signaling:
Dietary intervention in acne: Attenuation of increased mTORC1 signaling promoted by Western diet
http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/dermatoendocrinology/article/19828/?show_full_text=true  full text avialable.
The western diet habits that promote the mTORC1 signaling include high glycemic meal habits and dairy.
 

The purpose of this paper is to highlight the endocrine signaling of Western diet, a fundamental environmental factor involved in the pathogenesis of epidemic acne. Western nutrition is characterized by high calorie uptake, high glycemic load, high fat and meat intake, as well as increased consumption of insulin- and IGF-1-level elevating dairy proteins. Metabolic signals of Western diet are sensed by the nutrient-sensitive kinase, mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1 (mTORC1), which integrates signals of cellular energy, growth factors (insulin, IGF-1) and protein-derived signals, predominantly leucine, provided in high amounts by milk proteins and meat.......
 
It is conceivable that isotretinoin may downregulate mTORC1 in sebocytes by upregulation of nuclear levels of FoxO1.

 
Fox01 deficiency
 
The role of transcription factor FoxO1 in the pathogenesis of acne vulgaris and the mode of isotretinoin action. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20930691

Nuclear FoxO1 deficiency is the result of increased growth factor signaling with activated phosphoinositol-3-kinase (PI3K) and Akt kinase during growth hormone signaling of puberty and increased insulin/IGF-1 signaling due to consumption of insulinotropic milk/dairy products as well as hyperglycemic carbohydrates of Western diet.



J Dtsch Dermatol Ges. 2010 Feb;8(2):105-14. doi: 10.1111/j.1610-0387.2010.07344.x.
FoxO1 - the key for the pathogenesis and therapy of acne?
[Article in English, German]
Melnik BC.
Source
Department of Dermatology, Enviromental Medicine and Health Theory, University of Osnabrück, Germany. melnik@t-online.de
Abstract
Five main factors play a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of acne: androgen dependence, follicular retention hyperkeratosis, increased sebaceous lipogenesis, increased colonization with P. acnes, and inflammatory events. This paper offers a solution for the pathogenesis of acne and explains all major pathogenic factors at the genomic level by a relative deficiency of the nuclear transcription factor FoxO1. Nuclear FoxO1 suppresses androgen receptor, other important nuclear receptors and key genes of cell proliferation, lipid biosynthesis and inflammatory cytokines. Elevated growth factors during puberty and persistent growth factor signals due to Western life style stimulate the export of FoxO1 out of the nucleus into the cytoplasm via activation of the phos-phoinositide-3-kinase (PI3K)/Akt pathway. By this mechanism, genes and nuclear receptors involved in acne are derepressed leading to increased androgen receptor-mediated signal transduction, increased cell proliferation of androgen-dependent cells, induction of sebaceous lipogenesis and upregulation of Toll-like-receptor-2-dependent inflammatory cytokines. All known acne-inducing factors exert their action by reduction of nuclear FoxO1 levels. In contrast, retinoids, antibiotics and dietary intervention will increase the nuclear content of FoxO1, thereby normalizing increased transcription of genes involved in acne. Various receptor-mediated growth factor signals are integrated at the level of PI3K/Akt activation which finally results in nuclear FoxO1 deficiency.


Edited by alternativista, 02 July 2013 - 01:28 PM.


#49 alternativista

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:39 PM

Let's look at this, as I've never really explored the role of Fox01 before.

 

J Dtsch Dermatol Ges. 2010 Feb;8(2):105-14. doi: 10.1111/j.1610-0387.2010.07344.x.
FoxO1 - the key for the pathogenesis and therapy of acne?
[Article in English, German]
Melnik BC.
Source
Department of Dermatology, Enviromental Medicine and Health Theory, University of Osnabrück, Germany. melnik@t-online.de
Abstract
Five main factors play a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of acne: androgen dependence, follicular retention hyperkeratosis, increased sebaceous lipogenesis, increased colonization with P. acnes, and inflammatory events. This paper offers a solution for the pathogenesis of acne and explains all major pathogenic factors at the genomic level by a relative deficiency of the nuclear transcription factor FoxO1. Nuclear FoxO1 suppresses androgen receptor, other important nuclear receptors and key genes of cell proliferation, lipid biosynthesis and inflammatory cytokines. Elevated growth factors during puberty and persistent growth factor signals due to Western life style stimulate the export of FoxO1 out of the nucleus into the cytoplasm via activation of the phos-phoinositide-3-kinase (PI3K)/Akt pathway. By this mechanism, genes and nuclear receptors involved in acne are derepressed leading to increased androgen receptor-mediated signal transduction, increased cell proliferation of androgen-dependent cells, induction of sebaceous lipogenesis and upregulation of Toll-like-receptor-2-dependent inflammatory cytokines. All known acne-inducing factors exert their action by reduction of nuclear FoxO1 levels. In contrast, retinoids, antibiotics and dietary intervention will increase the nuclear content of FoxO1, thereby normalizing increased transcription of genes involved in acne. Various receptor-mediated growth factor signals are integrated at the level of PI3K/Akt activation which finally results in nuclear FoxO1 deficiency.

 

So, they name 5 major factors in the pathogenesis of acne:
androgen dependence, follicular retention hyperkeratosis, increased sebaceous lipogenesis, increased colonization with P. acnes, and inflammatory events.

 

All those factors are related to  a relative deficiency of the nuclear transcription factor FoxO1.

 

Nuclear FoxO1 suppresses androgen receptors,  genes involved in cell proliferation and lipid biosynthesis. and inflammatory cytokines.  

 

Elevated growth factors due to puberty OR  Western diet and lifestyle decrease Fox01 

 

This leads to increased androgen receptor sensitivity, increased cell proliferation,  and increase in inflammatory cytokines.   I have to look into what 'induction of sebaceous lipogenesis' means, exactly.

 

Retinoids, antibiotics work by increasing FoxO1 and so will dietary interventions.  I.e. avoiding high glycemic and insulinotropic diet habits.

 

'thereby normalizing increased transcription of genes involved in acne'  - in other words, it flips some genetic switches.



#50 alternativista

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:21 AM

Bioactive Dietary Factors and Plant Extracts in Dermatology

Book excerpt on discussing mTorC1,Fox01, and the phos-phoinositide-3-kinase (PI3K)/Akt pathways

 

http://books.google....ng acne&f=false

 

I wish I could copy and paste. 

 

Further down it mentions the role of  a high intake of Branched Chain Amino Acids from dairy and meat (especially leucine, especially in young body builders and athletes) May also increase mTorc1 signaling. 

 

And then, after the skip, it starts talking about resveraterol inhibits mTorc1.



#51 alternativista

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:53 PM

Page needing exploring about how accutane works and what else it's doing to you.

http://max001.proboards.com

 

 

I wish I could copy and paste the higher level board topics and their summaries. Topics like: " Significant Irriversible Hormone Antagonism" and "Affected neurotransmitters and parts of the brain".  Unfortunately, in addition to some good content, there's a lot of placeholders and a hell of a lot of spam.


Edited by alternativista, 14 July 2014 - 11:47 AM.


#52 alternativista

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:11 PM

What accutane does.  Not light reading.

 

Isotretinoin and FOX01

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ctid984712title

 

about FOX01 obviously, but also  PPARy, IGF-1, Innate & aquired immune response, and many more mechanisms. including those that least to adverse affects like causing muscle pain, bone density, dry mucosa, hair loss, etc. ( I have the dry eyes/nasal passages (and mouth but it didn't mention mouth) and maybe the muscle ache. ) )



#53 alternativista

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:35 PM

Here's one people should like.  Marijuana for acne.

 

Cannabidiol exerts sebostatic and antiinflammatory effects on human sebocytes

 

Cannabidiol is one of the compounds most studied for medicinal use. http://www.leafscien...annabidiol-cbd/

 

The thing to look into is the content in Hemp or Hemp seed/oil. 






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