3015 replies to this topic

[Chico Esposito]

it shouldn't of happened to any of us in the first place, the drug companies should of done their job with clinical trials, because any imbecile can see the damage it causes. It's nice to make up some elaborate story about how complex it all is "it damages the telomers by crosslinking DNA" what a load of horses****, so it's got nothing to do with plying the body full of massive amounts of synthetic vitamin A, has it?

Funny how were all walking round with hypervitaminosis A side effects and not just looking a bit older. So it damages telomers...right ....so we age quicker?....so what about the hair falling out, the GI tract problems, the skin conditions, the joint cracking and dry lips, and all the other side effects. If it was a telomer thing, why do people react to eating retinol? Personally i think it's easier for them to say it's a complex thing as opposed to just being straight with people.

Look at that Dovonex (Calcipotriene) cream...synthetic derivative of Vitamin D....Accutane synthetic derivative of Vitamin A. The argument that accutane is more natural than mercury is false, because mercury doesn't need to be synthesized in a laboratory. To put it plainly Accutane is as close to vitamin A as Ascorbic acid is to an orange. I sometimes refer to accutane as Retinoic acid, because thats the natural substance the body produces. Accutane isn't natural retinoic acid it's some pharma derivative called (13cis)-retinoic acid.... it's a synthetic chemical.

Edited by Chico Esposito, 13 February 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[humanstate]

What i'll try to do is write this to the best of my ability to address the issues that have been brought up. Firstly i'd like to talk about the severity of side effects being different from person to person and the reason why that is. I'd like to go back to the mercury analogy for a second if i may……someone that has 10 amalgam fillings will have a worse degree of mercury toxicity as opposed to someone with 3 mercury fillings. Now both will suffer from the specific side effects associated with high levels of mercury within the body….in a broad spectrum kind of way…but the person with 10 amalgam fillings will have a more severe case of toxicity. With accutane, people like to lump accutane side effects into one category…but what we are really talking about is retinoic acid toxicity. Thats what it should be called, because the side effects are a direct result of toxicity. Taking it one step further someone thats taken 80mg of accutane for 12 months will A. Have a higher risk of side effects and B. have a higher level of toxicity if it goes wrong, than someone thats taken 20mg for the same length of time.

So it's quantitive, the side effects and the severity of those side effects are based on the amount of accutane you have taken. So certain people might be able to eat retinol without a problem, they might have mild digestive problems and small amounts of dry skin after accutane. Others may have severe joint pains, severe hair loss, severe digestive problems etc…it's directly quantitive to the amount of retinoic acid in the body.

This is in no way trying to imply that one persons side effects are more worthy than another…and that side effects of all kinds can not be mentally damaging to any individual. This is just the simple truth that accutane toxicity….is directly proportional in terms of severity to the amount of the retinoic acid in the body.

Now i wanna talk about why milk thistle and these other liver detox supplements don't work, because this is were it gets interesting. Cast your minds back to when you were taking the drug, lots of people on forums say that taking milk thistle whilst on accutane reduces the severity of side effects. The reason given for this is usually because milk thistle aids the liver in the removal of the drug from the body. In that sense it's absolutely true, milk thistle does facilitate the removal of drugs because it increases liver detoxification. Anyone that glances at a steroid forum will see that they talk fondly about milk thistle protecting their liver against toxicity.

The reason why it works when people are taking accutane is because the accutane is in the circulation. Now that's very important…..the accutane is circulating around the bloodstream so the milk thistle enhances the liver ability to detoxify the blood. These things only work when the drug / toxin whatever you want to call it.... is in the bloodstream. Now what happens with accutane is this….accutane is circulating around your system until you stop taking the drug, at which point the body removes it, if it's able to do so. If not it'll store it in the fat cells, just like it does with mercury, pesticides, pcb's, dioxins and all the other fat soluble toxins. Someone with retinoic acid toxicity can take milk thistle until their blue in the face but unless the retinoic acid is in the bloodstream / circulation it won't make any difference. I hope that sort of answers the question of why these detox supplements aren't working the way they should be.

Now i can see you guys thinking to yourself "well how do you get it into the circulation then, you fool" i'll tell you how, you can push the retinoic acid back into the circulation from my experience in two ways. One of those ways is

1. Juice fasting- juice fasting with vegetable juices…what happens when you juice fast is your body goes into a state of ketosis, the body uses up it's stored carbohydrates and starts to burn your body fat as energy. This happens around 2-3 days into the fast…. as a result the fat will be pushed out into the circulation and burnt by the liver as energy. During that time the retinoic acid stored within the fat cells will enter into the bloodstream. Thats when it can be removed, baring in mind after you stop the fast the toxins will just go straight back into the fat cells, unless you use certain things to draw them out of the body whilst there in the circulation. I'd like to reference myself as a case study here in relation to my experience....i went on a juice fast for a week or two whilst taking some herbs and within 3 days my skin condition literally went away, i'm not talking about it improving slightly or the severe peeling slowing down....i talking about literally the skin condition was not there...In fairness it came back as soon as i stopped the fast which was a downer, but it proved to me without a shadow of a doubt it was stored in my fat cells. Now thats not to say everyone is the same, i can only talk about my personal experiences in relation to this.

2. The second way of doing it, and the less taxing way is taking circulation boosting herbs. Baring in mind most of us post accutane are rather skinny anyway, so it's unadvisable to fast for longer than a few days. The circulation boosting herbs ( cayenne pepper, garlic, ginger, gingko billko, hawthorn berry)…..these herbs vasculate the bloodstream, dramatically increasing blood flow and as a result push some of the toxins stored in fat back into the bloodstream.

Now people gotta remember that it's dangerous to push the retinoic acid back into the circulation without a plan of how your gonna remove it when it gets there. Pushing high amounts of retinoic acid out into the bloodstream can cause problems and the body might react negatively, unless the detoxification pathways are open and your binding those toxins on the way out. In reference to the liver herbs not working it's the same as somebody with heavy metal toxicity taking milk thistle.... unless the heavy metals are in the bloodstream, the liver cant remove them.....the livers role is to clean the blood...if the toxins are not in the bloodstream then the liver cant really do anything.

http://ebooks.whnliv.../LipidDetox.pdf - i found this quite an interesting read

I'm still carrying on trying to boost my zinc levels, zinc is the component needed to make retinol binding protein, which is the carrier for vitamin A around the body. When the body is low in zinc it cant make retinol binding protein and as a result there is no carrier to remove the retinoic acid out of the body. I'd like to say this is only a log of my personal opinions and thoughts.

What vegetable juices would you recommend?
I just ordered a juicer from costco (yay!)
I read that beet juice helps promote bile flow.

So if you incorporate that in your juices I'm sure it would help.

Also, does someone have to be in a sauna or just sweating?

[Chico Esposito]

@Humanstate let me experiment with it myself first and i'll tell you whether it has any effect or not. I juice beets at least once a week with some celery and apple it's very tasty...In relation to what i'm considering trying, i'm gonna buy some caps containing cayenne, garlic, ginger, ginkgo biloba.....i'll just try and buy an all in one rather than buy them seperately. Maybe buy some msm caps i'm undecided- the msm won't do much but before a sauna it might open up the cells making them more pliable so they can remove toxins easier.....again it's experimentation...i'll see what works or does not work. Then i'll use a FIR sauna to sweat for around an hour or so....afterwards i'll take either phosphatidyl choline caps or some sunflower lecithin ...i'm looking at the ones in jars as opposed to the capsules as maybe being easier. Most of these supplements are made with soy, that may be detrimental because soy isn't very good for health with the exception of things like fermented miso and natto. Thats why i might buy the sunflower lecithin instead, i'll take a few tablespoons after the sauna....of course it's experimentation and seeing what is best. I'm also considering taking some zinc picolinate, maybe looking into things that enhance phase 2 liver detoxification, things like calcium d glucurate or other things that enhance that pathway. In relation to will just sweating work, the answer is in my mind is no, there is a sauna at my local swimming baths that i may use, or council run gyms that have sauna services, sweating doesn't remove fat soluble toxins, far infra red saunas are better for that purpose.

Before even considering anything i'd like to experiment myself to iron out what the plan of action is, before anyone else try's it and gets angry with me for flip floping around and changing things up, or that it doesn't work for them, i don't wanna disappoint people so i'll do the experimentation on my own.

If you've bought a juicer just try a 3 day juice fast...no more than that....juice vegetables ....try and juice low sugar foods, so stay away from juicing many beets or apples...it's the vegetables that you want to juice not the fruits, because that will put your body into ketosis....otherwise the fruit sugar will be used as carbs and you'll never get into that ketosis state. Buy a few cloves of garlic, a few pieces of ginger and the hottest chillies you can comfortably tolerate and add them to your juices. After 3 days see how you feel and start eating food again. See if your side effects got better at the end of the 3rd day thats a good way to analyse it, to see whether removing it from the fat helps your condition.

Edited by Chico Esposito, 09 February 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Chico Esposito]

The reasons why i think it's stored in the fat cells is because i was on accutane twice. As some of you may know i started taking it at 17. I took it for around 8 months and came off of it. I developed really dry skin after i stopped taking it, cracked lips, dry eyes, and mild digestive problems, but i didn't connect the dots, i don't know why! i was happy to be acne free. My dry skin looked like white plaques on my cheeks up to near my temples. I then a few months later I went back on the drug for 4 months...at around a 40mg dose. After i came off the second time the dry skin turned into much thicker plaques and it started over my nose and all over my scalp as well. Thats how i started thinking about it being stored in my fat cells which i only figured out a few years later...I took anti fungal meds, all sorts of drugs and creams because the dermatologists couldn't figure out what was wrong with my skin, so at first it was a fungal infection, then it was a yeast infection etc.....what i later realised after taking all these drugs and creams was it was non of those things. The accutane causes skin cell proliferation, which means your skin cells grow really quickly. So the accutane that was not removed by my body was stored in the areas were i had the really severe seborheic dermatitis. When i juice fasted it vanished for that time because the toxins were pushed back into the bloodstream with all the fat.

Been reading that ebook posted in the other link, theres some compelling evidence that states a high fat, high protein low carb diet may be good for removing toxins in the fat cells. They say that saturated fat intake should be 8 times higher than unsaturated fat.....but the foods they reccomend are raw eggs, raw cream etc....now both of them are excellent if you haven't got a retinol aversion like us, but i couldn't eat stuff like that or it would make me worse. But there are lots of plant based saturated fats like coconut oil, coconut cream, young or old coconut's, coconut milk, palm kernel oil, cocoa butter, cocoa beans. Animal sources would be beef, lamb and pork....eating the high fat cuts of meat. The reason they suggest this is because when these toxins get out into the bloodstream the fat in your diet binds to them in the bloodstream and carrys them to the liver for removal. The phospholipids they recommend are high in phosphatidyl choline like sunflower lecithin or non gmo soy lecithin liquid. These phospholipids make up every cell membrane in the body, The membranes lose their fluidity in the presence of fat soluble toxins and cell membranes get damaged..... by all accounts these phospholipids are quite essential for removing fat soluble toxins. So thats probably what i'll start doing...circulation boosting herbs > FIR sauna > phospholipids / high fat (saturated), high protein, low carb diet

I'm gonna keep it simple for the time being and experiment to see if it works at all. I'd like to thank everyone on this forum for the great support over this entire topic...i wanna apologise to James for getting a bit uppity in my last response....there was no need for it. Hope you all are well......

@Indigo does it need to be infrared? as far as saunas go, yeah far infra red is better if you wanna remove fat soluble toxins. Iooked back at page 19 and i saw your eyebrows vid, i burst out laughing. You use that remmington shaver.... i use the same one ....i shaved my eye brows off when i was 15 i wanted to make them straight at the ends, so i shaved the outer part until it was straight, i looked like ming the merciless...i was in a constant state of surprise for about a month.

You should of grown a little charlie chaplin tache to take the spotlight away, when in doubt a pencil thin moustache will always draw attention.....it's like a vortex....people are blinded by it's almost supernatural power. Nothing says "rebel with a heart of gold" like a neatly quaffed aristocratic piece of fluff on a mans chiseled face lol.

Edited by Chico Esposito, 09 February 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[theGreyhound]

Guys... don't forget the need for balance in recovery, and by balance, I mean not obsessing over your health and focusing on how sick you feel you are.

You CANNOT get physically better if you send your body messages of "I'm so sick" all the time. If you go to bed and wake up feeling that way every day, your body will start to play into this and make it come true, regardless of how many supplements or health regimes you undergo. Please remember this!!!

[Nick Ryan]

Okay, whoa- I just read past posts in this forum and I had no idea it got so dark and crazy and dramatic.

I NEED to ask: did anyone ever look into the Jutrian RX Hydrogen Peroxide supplement?

Did anyone ever look into the HCG diet?

Did anyone ever look into 7-10 water fast to try to reset genes and upregulated hormones and the like?

Did anyone ever look into any hair loss supplements to help restore DHT receptors?

I apologize if any of those questions were answered later in the forum but I have been reading for hours and the sun is about to come up.

Thank you to whoever answers and I hope everyone is doing well... After reading what I just read, I can honestly say I hope all of you feel better than you have in the past.


-Nick

[jmsil]

Thanks for your replies Chico. Yes, I don't eat, or at least try to avoid, any hot (spicy) food. I get all sorts of pains, including muscular pain and general weakness from both garlic and chillies. I could tolerate both of them no problem for about 2 years after finishing Accutane, but not any longer. I used to have about 2 raw garlic cloves crushed in my salad virtually every day for around a year but felt no noticeable improvements from the benefits they are supposed to give.

Eniva Vibe - it has got to me a bit, as I'm still lingering from the effects. My hair isn't as covered in dead skin where my scalp is flaking as it was, and my scalp is les itchy, so I can only hope this and the other effects go in time. I do appreciate you acknowledging now that Eniva Vibe is not a route to go down. End of the day you were only trying to help.

The money I spent on the 4 liver tinctures from Sensible Health for 5 months was a lot, but that isn't a big deal. I actually bought them a week or so before I found this forum, and had planned to take them for a long period.

Our bodies are not fucked for life, okay?

Well I do think my body is f****d forever and I know I'm far from alone in thinking like this. Where are the former long term Accutane sufferers coming on here to reassure us that everything's going to be OK?

Unfortunately Connor's suggestion of working up a sweat with vigorous, intense exercise is not possible for everyone with certain Accutane side effects. I feel too tired and weak to do any proper exercise at all apart from walking. If I push my boundaries, then I'll end up feeling even more tired and weak for days. I certainly can't exercise to a sweat. And with the frequent headaches (which can affect my eyes) I've had in recent months, it makes things even harder. Swear, after what Accutane has taught me, if I had another life, I WOULD be sweating out every day going to the gym, as well as only eating organic produce of natural whole foods, and leave NOTHING to chance. I understand Indigo what you're saying about trying to relax and enjoy yourself, but the drug affects everyone differently with the side effects, making it incredibly hard. Like you, some days are better than others.

Back to the theories, I only asked what I thought were fair questions, to better understand Chico's theory. I believed the theory, but now I'm only saying I'm not so sure. It's just my opinion and it's certainly not worth causing a drama about it. Some of your answers Chico I have no comeback for, because I'm no expert obviously. I don't know why some of us have such bad reactions of certain Vitamin A foods. Maybe after such high Vitamin A-like poisoning (with retinoic acid), the body may have built up some sort of immunity against anything similar entering the body. Maybe auto-immune? I don't know. Nathan mentions a lot about people's problems of consuming Vitamin A foods in large sections of his report and that it mimics hypervitaminosis A.

We know Accutane (isotretinoin) is a chemotherapy drug, whereby it rapidly divides cells, killing our healthy cells all over our body, as this is what cancer drugs do. Women can get pregnant while on the drug and have no side effects of her own yet will get guaranteed birth defects of her unborn baby.

So if Accutane can be stored in the body after one finishes Accutane, then why is it not possible to have birth defects if becoming pregnant after finishing Accutane, even if they suffer from side effects themselves?

It's nice to make up some elaborate story about how complex it all is "it damages the telomers by crosslinking DNA" what a load of horses****, so it's got nothing to do with plying the body full of massive amounts of synthetic vitamin A, has it?

Retinoid and chemotherapy, both of what Accutane is, can indeed alter DNA. Regarding telomere length shortening - I'll just say why I think this could be the cause. It does more than just looking older - Nathan explains this and it tells you all over the internet the big impact it has on health.

I've found a few sites where clinical studies have taken place showing that telomere lengths were shorter after chemotherapy then before. Here's from one site (there are others):

"We investigated telomere length changes in patients with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma (NHL) receiving conventional-dose chemotherapy. Using Southern blot analysis, telomere length was measured in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from five NHL patients at diagnosis, 15 NHL patients after chemotherapy, and 39 healthy controls. Compared with age-matched putative normal controls, telomeres were significantly shorter in NHL patients at diagnosis. Mean telomere length was shorter after chemotherapy than before chemotherapy and was shorter after chemotherapy than in age-matched putative healthy controls. There was no correlation between the extent of telomere shortening and time elapsed after chemotherapy. These findings suggest that in NHL patients hematopoietic stem cells lose telomere length during the recovery period from bone marrow suppression after conventional-dose chemotherapy."

Link: http://www.springerl...d8k9pk4pdbdg8c/

As Accutane is chemotherapy, I can't see how this can be written off. Obviously Nathan has put in his report detailing exactly why it would also apply to isotretinoin (Accutane) chemotherapy.

As I've mentioned before, I got rosacea (skin condition) a year after starting Accutane. I know Milano here also said he has this, and after many searches, it's not exactly uncommon as a side effect. If you read up about rosacea, it says it typically hits people between ages 30-50 and the cause is not known. Both these facts would suggest it's an age related condition. Children/teenagers and young adults just DON'T get rosacea. When I match this with the theory that Accutane shortens telomere lengths, everything clicks.

Edited by jmsil, 10 February 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Chico Esposito]

@Jmsil if you look at what you've said you'll see the answers to the questions your seeking. Why do you feel worse after intense exercise? why do you feel bad when you eat chilli and garlic? why do you feel bad when you eat retinol? why do you have the rosacea of the skin? Can i ask you a question.......does your skin flush badly when you exercise?

Your entitled to your opinions about the telomer theory and believing it is the source of the problems. All i'm saying is i can try to explain why these things are the way they are.

Why do you feel bad when you exercise? it could possibly be that the exercise causes the body to burn fat, it increases the circulation and the chances of the stored toxins entering back into the circulation are much higher during bouts of intense exercise. Why do you feel bad after garlic and chilli?...because these substances increase blood flow and push those stored toxins back into the bloodstream. Why do you feel bad when you eat retinol foods? because it react's very badly to the synthetic retinoic acid in your body.

Heres a question for you, do you react badly to putting oils on your skin?..i'm not talking about the areas were the skin is normal, i'm taking about in the area were you have rosacea? get back to me cos i'd be really intrigued to know.

Edited by Chico Esposito, 13 February 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[IndigoRush]

What I still don't get is ... Is this the same as chemotherapy?
As far as I was aware chemo makes ALL your hair fall out while taking it.
And it doesn't make sense that some people can take this without ever having problems.
Because if it is like regular chemo, surely it should be a definite that you get side effects.

Maybe we'll never know the answers to these questions.
I feel pretty shitty today, about life in general.
Work is getting me down and I feel incapable of doing my job.

I just took my Dad out for a meal at a Sushi bar.
It was cool.
You have a little conveyer belt running around the tables and help yourself to any dish you fancy.
I ended up trying 9 different things.
Came to £50 for both of us.
Money just goes so easily.

It's f*cking hard to find an infra red sauna around my City.
I've looked online and can find nothing.
Phoned up a gym I used to be a member of, because I knew they had one.
You have to have a platinum membership to use it.
That'd probably be £60-£70 a month, and I don't have time for the gym, or the money for that.

I'd love my own Sauna.
I'd probably use it an hour every day, straight after a stressful day at work.

I do have 3 days off though. Used some Holiday to take Monday off.
Not sure what to do yet.
Might go swimming and use a regular sauna/steam room.
Just fearful of other people's judgements about me.
I washed my hair last night, instead of this morning, and my hair has looked shit all day.
I can't help getting extremely jealous of everyone else, walking around with thick hair.
My hair was so thick before.
But I can't just keep thinking about how things were.

Andrew is totally right.
There's a lot of information about the subconscious mind.
I can't help but think we're trapped now.
I wonder if we'd have as many problems as we do now, if we hadn't of focused on everything in the first place.
It's like the placebo effect.
I wonder if by reading about other people getting certain side effects, we let ourselves become weak and scared.

About the aging thing.
Our faces are probably older looking because of the lack of sebum being produced, and the constant stress/fear from living like this.
I've become very on-edge.
I'm always a bit jumpy when someone talks to me for the first time, or if someone walks over to me.
I feel like something bad is going to happen, and I can't help thinking that despite my logical thoughts.

But James, and I'm not having a go, you seem to constantly look at the worst case scenario with this.
It's up to you what you choose to believe, but you always promote negativity.
You pull out the news that Roche are in trouble, the day the story hits the paper.
While it's good that they're getting bad press, I really think you need to find something to enjoy.
I don't know what you do with your time, of course, but I get the impression that you fill it with this.
Sure, you may be being realistic. Things do seem very bad.
It'd be so easy for us to all talk about how bad this is.
We often do.
But by doing that, we remain depressed victims.

Have you ever witnessed people arguing on who's got the harder life, or the bigger problem?
It's like they want to feel worse than the other person.
It can feel good to blame external factors, but it's very harmful.
Yeah, I've had a shit day at work again, and I've spent £50 on food that was enjoyed for an hour.
But it's done now. It's in the past. I can't change it.
I'm home now. I'll save my money for better things in the future.
It was a nice meal, and I owed it to my Dad.

Same situation with this really.
Except for the fact that we can't fully escape the consequences of taking this drug.
But, we can find little escapes each day.
I watched BBC's Frozen Planet the other day, on Bluray.
Just the first episode.
First of all, it looked absolutely stunning in HD.
But, there was this one bit in the show that made me think 'I'm glad I'm alive... That was amazing'.

It was a penguin stealing another penguin's rocks.
He knew what he was doing.
It was awesome.
Another penguin was stealing the thieves.
But the thief was checking his back.
He caught the second thief and waddled while making penguin sounds.
Fucking hilarious.
So human like.
And I love how they walk around with their arms open, like they're going to hug someone.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I sound like a dick by saying that you need to lighten up, but you do.
I, probably like all of you, check this site pretty frequently.
I can't help feeling a sense of dread each time I see you (Jmsil) have posted a new comment.
I read it, and normally feel a sense of despair afterwards.

Basically, you need to realise something.
If you're right...
If you're right about Accutane fucking up our bodies for life, does that make you feel good?
Exactly.
Wouldn't you rather consider more resourceful options?
It's better to keep getting frustrated and let down than feel permanently defeated.

You must realise that your life is in your hands now.
It's up to you to deal with this.
Sure, it'll be hard sometimes... a lot of the time, even.
But you have choices throughout the day.

You can choose what to spend your money on.
You can choose how to spend your free time.
You can choose to feel good, or look for reasons to feel bad.

I'm not trying to critisize you.
You have every right to complain about your life.
But just because you have the right, doesn't mean you need to.
Sometimes it's just better to accept what's happened.

We don't know where we'll be in 10 years time.
This could be a distant memory.
Things could get worse.
Who knows?

I really want to make my family and friends proud of me.
I'm sick of being 'that guy who's depressed'.
I want to be known for something GOOD.

On a side note, my book has now sold 24 copies.
I don't know who's buying it to be honest.

I think it's important to remind ourselves that we can't change the past.
We actually have a lot of energy.
It just gets used up on feeling bad and depressed.
I see energy as a form of soul.
Our souls feel a bit rocked right now.
It's like someone has gone and cut it to pieces.

Maybe we can put the pieces back together.
It may just take a while.
I didn't think I'd have the energy for badminton.
But, because I like it and am quite competitive, I find the energy naturally.
I keep thinking 'My body is going to get strong after a while of this' and it gives me the energy I need to kick some ass.

I don't necessarily think a Sauna will fix any of this, but I'm craving one really bad.
I just want to sit there, all relaxed and warm.
Tempted to go 'fuck what anyone thinks about my patchy hair' and head over to the nearest swimming centre right now.

Edited by IndigoRush, 10 February 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Nick Ryan]

Okay, whoa- I just read past posts in this forum and I had no idea it got so dark and crazy and dramatic.

I NEED to ask: did anyone ever look into the Jutrian RX Hydrogen Peroxide supplement?

Did anyone ever look into the HCG diet?

Did anyone ever look into 7-10 water fast to try to reset genes and upregulated hormones and the like?

Did anyone ever look into any hair loss supplements to help restore DHT receptors?

I apologize if any of those questions were answered later in the forum but I have been reading for hours and the sun is about to come up.

Thank you to whoever answers and I hope everyone is doing well... After reading what I just read, I can honestly say I hope all of you feel better than you have in the past.


-Nick

Okay, the reason I just brought those other things up is because they looked like they got ignored, and I don't want to have them be ignored again.

I appreciate the fact that you're attempting to be some kind of motivational speaker, Indigo, as we could all use a little boost every now and then. But there are a million and one places people can go for a pick me up. I, personally, come here looking for answers.

@Chico, if you are as convinced as you seem about your theory, why not circulate the drug into your bloodstream in whatever way, and then go get a blood test? Surely the levels of isotretinoin will be higher than normal? And then it will be case closed and we can go from there.

Until then, there are things that have been offered up on this forum as potential answers that I don't believe have even been looked at.

[thesavagepony]

I started reading the post sin the beginning of this thread, got through about 10 pages. Can someone whos suffering from post accutane please give me a list of some helpful supplements or any tips in a post? So much conflicting information... it really sucks. I'm suffering effects hardcore after 80mg for 5 months. My digestive system is a complete wreck... going to the doctor in a few days, but any advice on how to help the IBD like symptoms?

I don't even think I'm processing half the food I'm eating... kinda scary.

I got off my course 2 weeks ago. 19 years old. Aged the shit out of my body.

This forum is the reason I started accutane. Fucking damn I thought being an athlete my body was stronger than most peoples. I hate that this site promotes accutane it's "the" acne website.

Edited by thesavagepony, 10 February 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Lukez]

I have no problems with Jmsil's 'negativity'. He's just being realistic. It's more useful to come back to ground.

Two truths about the side effects from this drug can exist at the same time:

1. It's pointless to go into the latest high one or two days into some new supplement/theory; or think optimism will change anything - this is a very difficult life- and health- threatening problem.

2.This might be solved to a reasonable degree.

If you can't comprehend that those two facts can co-exist, that's unfortunate, but they can.

Just let the down people be down. Based on the poor rate of curing the problems associated with accutane, Jmsil is mostly right. Let truth be spoken.

Like Nick I come here for answers, not inspirational talks. The main inspiration for me is the constructive action that created this forum to discuss.

[Milano]

Hey SavagePony

Among other things, I also have digestive problems. What is your diet like? Try and cut things out that are known to be hard on digestion such as grains, nuts and milk. Betaine HCL has been mentioned that it helps and will help you digest food. Glutamine has also been mentioned as this helps in healing the gut. Some Probiotics that agree with you probably wouldn't go amiss either.


Just some things are everyone else.

Firstly, for those despairing that no one has come to say everything will be all right down the road - this is classic selection bias. Those who are recovered and living their lives will not be spending their time posting on an Accutane long-term side-effects forum thread.

Other thing, the people who have somewhat helped themselves heal from Acctuane have done fairly drastic elimination procedures. Shit that is tough and no one wants to do. Popping a Vitamin C pill will probably not cure you. We have read them - Liver Flushes, Bowell Cleansers, 30 Day Water Fasts.

I also still believe that Accutane is probably causing some sort of pseudo Hypervitaminosis A when in fact tests do not show elevated levels of Vitamin A because Accutane is not Vitamin A. Accutane has been shown to induce a deficiency in Vitamin A however, and our intolerance / avoidance of Vitamin A is probably making some things worse.

Chris Masterjohn is a very knowledgeable guy regarding cholesterol/ fat soluble vitamins. and I recently found a very good article by him. Not sure if it has been mentioned before. He mentions Accutane specifically in the article, saying it causes a deficiency in Vitamin A - you can find this under the paragraph of 'Vitamin A: Friend or Foe?' But I suggest everyone read the full article, especially from 'The Fat Soluble Vitamins' downwards. Very informative.

Link - http://www.westonapr...it-of-happiness

[Lukez]

I NEED to ask: did anyone ever look into the Jutrian RX Hydrogen Peroxide supplement

Not that I know of, but I did try very strong hydrogen peroxide years ago. I think it's useless for curing accutane side effects.

Did anyone ever look into the HCG diet?

I never tried it but it seems very unlikely. It's very low calorie, which is the common 'secret' to all fad diets. I've never read anyone reporting on it helping with accutane side effects.

HCG is an estrogen like hormone, which seems bizarre to me to take. Most of the long time accutane sufferers still seem to be males, and I have long suspected this messes up something like DHT receptors, a predominantly male hormone.

Did anyone ever look into 7-10 water fast to try to reset genes and upregulated hormones and the like?

Someone said they did something like it and reported some small percentage improvement. Only partial though.

However I strongly caution accutane sufferers from doing prolonged fasts due to most of us being chronically underweight. Fasting usually just distributes crap into our systems and does not remove it.

If you must fast, try doing intermittent fasting: 24 hour fasts once to twice a week. That is healthier.

Longer term fasting, which I have only tried for a few days, has never worked for me in the long run. It does, like the supplements and cleanses, just provide a brief high when you think it's working.

Did anyone ever look into any hair loss supplements to help restore DHT receptors?

I mentioned that strategy in some of my earlier posts. I consider that approach to be one of the best shots at correcting things.

I hope to do that approach or similar in the near future. Dr. Kevin Pezzi has written about this but his cure rate, if any, is unclear.

________________________________________

Chris Masterjohn is a very knowledgeable guy regarding cholesterol/ fat soluble vitamins. and I recently found a very good article by him. Not sure if it has been mentioned before. He mentions Accutane specifically in the article, saying it causes a deficiency in Vitamin A

I know Chris' writings and I agree with that view.

______________________________________________

but any advice on how to help the IBD like symptoms?

Avoid all grains but white rice. Avoid beans.

Cook in water if you can. I have broths and stocks to be helpful.

Make your food soft and easy to digest, like you were in a hospital. Eating food cooked in broths aids digestion.

___________________________

This drug sucks and yet I have to laugh a little at the ending on this page:

http://www.acne.org/...after-accutane/

Edited by Lukez, 10 February 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Chico Esposito]

@Chico, if you are as convinced as you seem about your theory, why not circulate the drug into your bloodstream in whatever way, and then go get a blood test? Surely the levels of isotretinoin will be higher than normal? And then it will be case closed and we can go from there.

I believe juice fasting or taking circulation herbs could in theory push the accutane back into the circulation, but then how could it be picked up on any test. Vitamin A tests check for retinol, not cis 13 retinoic acid. It's not the same and wouldn't show up on a vitamin A blood test. Bio impedence testing is a possible way at looking at cellular health.

I also still believe that Accutane is probably causing some sort of pseudo Hypervitaminosis A when in fact tests do not show elevated levels of Vitamin A because Accutane is not Vitamin A. Accutane has been shown to induce a deficiency in Vitamin A however, and our intolerance / avoidance of Vitamin A is probably making some things worse.

This is absolutely right, usually people are told before taking accutane to stay away from high vitamin A foods because it adversely affects the treatment...It's understandable because the retinoic acid is already causing a condition similar to hypervitaminosis A and eating food like butter or liver would only amplify the side effects further. Also people post accutane with long term problems get smart quickly to the adverse effects dietary retinol has on their health and exclude it. Over time a deficency can develop.....so there is a paradox were you can be deficient in retinol, but have large amounts of synthetic retinoic acid in the body at the same time.

Accutane was started as a treatment for acne, because they found out that massively toxic amounts of vitamin A in the form of retinol caused the sebum glands to close shut and stop producing oil. Scientists thought acne was caused by sebum clogging the pores of the skin and this sebum merged with dead skin cells and bacteria to form acne. So they believed that stoping the sebum flow would stop the process entirely. After researching that subjects taking massive amounts of retinol had quicker skin cell proliferation and much lower sebum output they decided to make an analog that causes the same things to happen.

On another note I have no problem with a bit of optimism on this board, indigo is just trying to instill some positivity, which is only a good thing. If you wanna believe your permanently damaged from accutane and you'll never get better...fine do so....it personally doesn't vibe with me, nor do i believe it from a scientific basis.

Edited by Chico Esposito, 13 February 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[JosephBuchignani]

Hi Savage,

My digestion was also wrecked by Accutane. I found the following to induce full symptom remission:

1. Eat nothing but LEAN meat, rice and water
2. Low stress lifestyle

Keep in mind that the above diet is designed to correct for intrahepatic cholestasis and IBS, not dry skin or hormonal problems.

I'll expand on 1 and 2, then describe my areas of current experimentation.

1. Meat should have zero fat marbling. Low fat fish such as cod are ok. High fat fish aren't. Beef is often problematic due to high fat content; chicken and pork are safer. Shrimp is ok without the shells. Squid is great. Steam the meat to further reduce fat, and let the fat drain completely away during the cooking process via a steam rack. Do not cook rice underneath the meat; cook them separately.

Cook via steam only. Burn nothing.

2. Establish a consistent Circadian rhythm via morning sunlight exposure, eating soon after awakening, not eating 8 hours before you want to wake up, avoiding blue light exposure at night, getting vit-D from natural sunlight, etc.

Avoid high stress situations from work or your social life. Get regular healthy social contact. Exercise to taste, but do not overexert.

Ok, here are my areas of further experimentation:

1. Are scallops necessary for long-term mineral supplementation? I'm not sure. Over a week or two, they're not. Over a longer time frame, quite possibly. I haven't fully verified that they're safe for my system, but they seem to be.

2. Can supplements permit an expanded diet or improved lifestyle? So far, I have not succeeded here. The major reason is that I'm sensitive to common ingredients in most pills. Most capsules contain vegetable oil, which has too much concentrated fat for me to tolerate. Most tablets contain Magnesium Stearate, a solid fat that makes the pill difficult to digest and also causes me irritation.

I have noted major improvements when taking TUDCA and Vit-D, however these were overshadowed by the negative effects of the above irritants, so I had to discontinue. Next I will try a Livotox pill that does not contain Mag Stearate. I am targeting the liver because Accutane induced intrahepatic cholestasis. It also induced IBS, however the IC must be addressed first.

I thought exactly the same as you - I won't get side effects, I'm a healthy althletic male. Wrong...

Jmsil, I believe you are suffering from chronic malnutrition due to your vegetarianism and impaired digestion. I suggest you start eating meat, perhaps squid and cod, immediately. I do not think your system can derive sufficient nutrients from a plant diet. You are dying.

If it helps, even monkies are not vegetarians. They prefer to eat insects above vegetables, and also smaller monkies. On a pure vegetarian diet in zoos, they fail to thrive. If you believe in evolution, that should tell you something.

Andrew, I find the reverse is much more true - my behavior and emotions follow my biological state, and my rationalizations follow my behavior and emotions. The only point where conscious control becomes possible is in the meta rationalization - one can either own the behavioral pattern, or recognize it as biologically driven. This short-circuits the negative loop of self-criticism and allows one to conserve willpower for winnable battles, thereby reducing stress.

In short, I believe one should never berate someone for a lack of positive thinking, but instead teach them to control the external inputs that determine their state. Once the inputs are controlled, then proper thought becomes feasible and worth pursuing. But if one does not clearly distinguish between what is under direct conscious control and what isn't, attempting to think more positively will simply lead to increased stress, dissonance and mood instability - spikes and crashes. This psychological instability will inevitably result in reduced attention to controlling external inputs, perpetuating the vicious cycle.

Those of you interested in steroids and hormone replacement would do well to read Tim Ferriss' book The 4 Hour Body, which discusses many ways to naturally raise testosterone by a large amount. However, it does not talk about digestive difficulties, so if you have those, you need to start by correcting them. Kombucha and fermented foods or probiotics should be on everyone's list if you can tolerate them.

[Maynerd]

So, I was doing some online research and I found this http://www.rctherapy.net/.

It seems like a shot in the dark but I am confident that it can heal organs, they claim it is 10 times more effective than stem cell therapy and whether or not the accutane is still in our systems, there can't be as much as when we were on it and giving ourselves fresh organs to deal with it has to significantly help. It is $45,000 and requires spending 10 weeks at a resort in Mexico. I called one of the owners and he thinks it will help us but when I talk to him again I need to figure out more about the scope of what it can help. For instance, he mentioned renewing the stomach and liver with the treatment but I need to ask if it can target other organs such as the thyroid or even the brain... etc. I wanted to get my shit together better before posting this but I decided to post here and now when I saw that they are having a drawing on facebook, giving out 5 free treatments. So I figure if one of us wins, that could be our test. Regardless, add em on fb http://www.facebook.com/#!/CellularTherapy

Also, the owner guy is going to get back to me with some kind of DNA spit testing procedure that can be done via mail and was developed by a company that has Steve Job's Doc on board. Supposedly it can tell you what ailments you are likely to develop (or already have). This could be a way to prove the extent of our damage. I plan on talking to the owner guy again within the next few days and I hope this doesn't sound too crazy.

In other news, I was convinced of the telomere theory for awhile but now I am not, although many diverging theories in science usually end up with both sides being partially right. Anyhow, my skepticism of NCC's theory is that I have been feeling like the tane is "re attacking" my system in that my joints started feeling hollow, eye dryness and floaters, just like when I was on tane. Also, 2 new developements in that my stomach has been making tons of loud noises and doing other IBS- like things (glutamine seems to help somewhat, trying to take 30 mgs per day) and my hair thinned quickly. This makes me believe it is either being stored in my colon or fat cells. It all started happening extremely suddenly when I went from not eating very much for a few months and I lost a bunch of weight to starting to eat decently again (makes me think colon, I can't remember has anyone tried colon hydrotherapy here?)... Also, I started taking supps for tane such as vit E w 8 different tocopherols and working out/steam rooming (this makes me think fat cells).

I have had slight improvement in mouth dryness and the 2 things I have been doing differently since this is improvement is taking coq10 and breaking the pill open in my mouth before swallowing the goo. Also, I have been taking cognisure which is a proline rich peptide supp derived from colostrum. Probably the co10 but I suggest taking the prp's because they seem to be great for the body in general and they are what the cellular therapy I mentioned above is centered around, I might have noticed some improvements in my brain function, which is how the supp is marketed but it's hard to know concretely.

I think we should all send an emails to collegiate physiology departments in our home states and ask them to do more research on tane. I know this would take a long time to see results from but we need more research.

Thanks-- Keep up the good fight.

[Nick Ryan]

@Chico: I have no problem with optimism, as long as it's not the main focus of this forum. Facts and answers and help should be the main focus, with optimism sprinkled in, not the other way around.
if you find a way of testing the blood for accutane (which there must be /some/ way) I hope you'll share your results with us. Also, please do keep us posted on your fasting/detoxing.

@Maynerd, pitching a resort in Mexico that costs $45,000 is probably not going to land you many partners. However, if you do decide to do it and it ends up helping you, please come back to the forum and let us know.

[humanstate]

I also believe that accutane is still stored in my body.

A couple days ago I did an experiment. I tried to eat as many spicy foods as I could. I also drank cinnamon/green tea (not sure if that has a connection). Throughout that day I was fine but the next day I got a familiar feeling.

I remember while I was on accutane I used to get ...hot flashes(?)
Out of nowhere I would just start burning up! My ears and face would get red and I felt like I had a fever.

Back to the experiment. The day after my "spicy food day" I got one. It was so strange/hot. It took me a while to remember that I would get those while on accutane.
I think that the spicy foods sent the accutane back into circulation and it took my body a little while to react.

So if it is stored in the fat and we circulate it, does that mean it will have the same effect on the body as if we were taking it?

Also, if its stored in the fat and we do our best not to circulate it, why do we still have some toxic effects?

Edited by humanstate, 10 February 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[thesavagepony]

Joe, I can't believe that is a healthy diet. You must have more variety than that. Where are your veggies and fruits?

4 questions relating to our post accutane bodies

If I'm experience ibd/s, I obviously am not getting all the nutrients and protein foods and vitamins provide, correct? So I either would have to eat more or consider a supplement that assists in the absorption or something?

Does anyone see an issue with trying to live a bodybuilder (natural) lifestyle after accutane? This would consist of a HIGH protein and carb diet and calorie, but of course I will be eating a ton of veggies and fruits. Also, you mentioned people considering steroids, has something happened to our test levels from accutane?

...Can we ever party...? I don't mean can we have a beer maybe followed by another one an hour later, I mean can we go party frat style, or is this just for sure going to ruin post accutane bodies? I don't have plans on becoming an alcoholic, but has taking accutane basically made it so I can't ever rage again even though I only have a year of college behind me? We were told not to drink on accutane... so can we not drink after either...?

Also, marijuana. I'm a medical patient and I smoke a lot. Any ideas on whether this changes things now that I went through accutane?