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Repairing the long-term damage from Accutane

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#6841 wishicouldcry

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 11:48 AM

You guys and gals we will never be better from accutane im sorry but yeah its just how it is it fucked us up thats that, that being said you know what you gotta do and what works for you, drink up
Message me i want to chat with fellow accutaned!

#6842 pathtorecovery91

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:22 PM

 

Jah Bless, no offense but all of your posts have been strange, off beat, and have added little insight. I'm sure we can manage dude. We'll take it from here.



So, I had a very odd experience a few days ago. I smoked marijuana for the first time and found that I was effected much more than is "normal". My head was hurting (the pressure), my penis was hurting, and all of my actuate symptoms seemed to just get worse-especially libido, and the libido part continues to persist. This led me to think that perhaps actuate and weed affect our hormones in a similar way. For example, thc lowers prolactin levels and accutane influences pitutiary hormone levels, which I think are similar. Again, this is likely a long shot but is worth checking out.

I think you are on to something and I also have my experiences with the two. Years ago I found a rare scientific paper that said Marijuana "may increase toxicity of Isotretinoin". But it was a 1 out of 1000 find. And I have yet to find that paper again. It had a small list of 7 or 8 drugs that shouldn't be taken in combination with Accutane, and to be quite frank, teenagers probably take at least 2 or 3 of the drugs that were on that list. And yet dermatologists don't even know to recommend the patient. Again, this was a science manual. 

The worst thing about Accutane is that other than potentially curing acne, everything else is detrimental to health. If you think about it, if the drug is so powerful that it can change the way your skin functions, what's it doing to your other organs? The acne-free skin gained from the drug is essentially just a side effect from all the epigenetic changes toxic levels of synethetic vitamin A does to our body and I highly doubt these changes are beneficial to our health. I don't think Accutane is worthy of being called medicine and at the very least, it should be more tightly regulated than it is now. Right now dermatologists are prescribing Accutane like candy to anyone with moderate acne, sometimes even to those with just mild acne. Accutane is the only drug that I had to stop taking very early on because of the severity of the side effects and I've taken many medicine in the past. In the pharmaceutical industries and FDA's eyes, if the drug doesn't kill enough people, they don't feel the need to pull the drug off the market no matter how harsh it is on the health which is quite scary. Unfortunately, this is the only thread that seems to take the negative effects of Accutane seriously. The harsh truth is that the majority of people had good experience from Accutane so I don't think Accutane is ever going to get banned again or become more tightly regulated anytime soon. 

I really feel sorry for everyone that have had bad experience from Accutane and have suffered from long-term side effects because of it. Dealing with acne is hard enough but having to suffer long-term side effect from trying to treat acne is even worse.

After sharing my negative Accutane experience on reddit/r/Accutane, I got a lot of downvotes and not only people didn't believe my side effects but they were questioning the validity of them.

Great post. My feelings as well.

As far as the down votes, eh, let em take it then. Give it to their kids if they're so confident. We'll only continue to grow. It wasn't until an affected U.S. senators son were they even willing to take a look at it.

Business wise we should stay ahead of the curve and find a cure and then market it to all of them.


I've been following that weight lifter guy on youtube taking accutane. Oh his weight lifting career is most certainly over and he doesn't even know it. He even wants to tell his derm to do an extra month "because he's that kind of over achiever" or something. I lol'ed so hard. He thinks he has a current bout of 'scoliosis' and that's why he can't do squats at the moment. He has no idea the combination of accutane and his lifting is literally doing damage to his body. Who want's to take the over/under on 7.5 months post tane he disappears from youtube or his channel becomes a side effect recovery channel.

Apologies, my sense of humor has become crass lately, but what I find funny in that situation is not the potential of ruin for the kid, it's the illusion of 'control' that he purports, and doctors as well, when embarking on such a quest, that we first handers know how in the dark the medical community is about this drug. it really is pandoras box. Really the only one's who are qualified to prescribe this drug should be actual scientists.
 

I know who you are talking about. I posted a video from his channel a little while back telling people about him. His names Brian and his channel is HumerusFitness on youtube. It is a fitness channel.
I been watching his videos for over a year now. He is an awesome person but sadly doesn't know what kind of damage he is doing to his body.
For anyone curious he was on accutane for about a year and a half now and is just getting off now. He was on high doses ranging from 80mg to 120mg i believe and starting lowering again up until now.

He is believing what the doctor is telling him but doesn't realize what is likely going to happen after time goes by of not being on it. He enthusiastically talks about it and how it is so awesome. He did his research about taking it from watching other youtube videos and sadly not looking at these forums.

Most people that make youtube updates on Accutane are not heard from as years go by so you are not up to date with their health status. This guy makes YouTube videos for a living with 4-5 videos a week.

He has somewheres around 50,000 subscribers on Youtube. He mentioned several times how he is making videos for the rest of his life because he enjoys it so much.

With that said, I do believe this could possibly be beneficial to all us accutane sufferers. IF he begins experiencing these side effects like hair loss(which I could tell kind of slightly thinned out from his first accutane videos) and all the other problems, he will talk about it. (He basically films his life)

When he realizes these things are happening because of taking accutane, I KNOW he will take action and he will have more power than any of us to possibly get a lawsuit started, or even better, an awareness website or channel and possibly put an end to accutane and give us the recognition we deserve.

With the exposure and followers he has, he could easily make an accutane side effects youtube channel and literally have tens of thousands of people to support it.

Think about it.

Here is the link to his channel https://www.youtube..../HumerusFitness

Edited by pathtorecovery91, 02 July 2015 - 07:40 AM.


#6843 Modeaa

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 05:57 PM

yetanotheraccutanevictim, about blood flow, i have read that accutane deacrease nitric oxide production, nitric oxide is needed for dilation/expansion of blood vessels so this affect blood circulation/flow i guess, it affect blod presure(reduce it) i read on wiki about nitric oxide importence for sex and that viagra works by increasing it.

i thoght theoretically about how foxo might remain active post accutane
foxo activation create apoptosis, and ubiquitation i think or something like that and autophagy, and those or some of those i think create waste products which require evacuation,maybe the drug induced a huge burden on those evacuation patways till they got clooged up, those patwatys(lymph/blood vessels) are also needed for nutrient supply to the cells , and when nutrient suply to cells get impaired(not meeting demands) and food don't reach to the cells(in a pace which meet demands) it causing foxo to stay up because the cell is not feed .
acording to this scenario accutane created a loop activation of foxo, maybe this keep happen with increase conversion of retinol to retinoic acid(there were repotrs about retinol deficiencies) or by other way of activating foxo by the cells(?) or not the cells. there's a connection between those evacuation patways cleanliness(obstruction clooge ) and the ability to create nitric oxide.

Thigs which maybe support this theory:
among othere functions, the lymphatic system '' is responsible for the removal of interstitial fluid from tissues'' (https://en.wikipedia...system#Function)

https://en.wikipedia...ogical_function
''Interstitial fluid bathes the cells of the tissues. This provides a means of delivering materials to the cells, intercellular communication, as well as removal of metabolic waste.''

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10432387
''Retinoic acids inhibit inducible nitric oxide synthase expression in mesangial cells''
''ATRA and 13-cis-RA dose-dependently attenuated NO production. This effect was most pronounced at ATRA concentration of 10 microM''
''Our studies demonstrate that the retinoids ATRA and 13-cis-RA attenuate iNOS expression and activity in cytokine-stimulated murine mesangial cells.''

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Nitric_oxide
''Nitric oxide, known as the 'endothelium-derived relaxing factor', or 'EDRF', is biosynthesized endogenously from L-arginine, oxygen, and NADPH by various nitric oxide synthase (NOS) enzymes.Reduction of inorganic nitrate may also serve to make nitric oxide. The endothelium (inner lining) of blood vessels uses nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscle to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation and increasing blood flow.''

http://www.nature.co...l/399597a0.html
''Regulation of endothelium-derived nitric oxide production by the protein kinase Akt''

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17254969
''Functional studies validated Sprouty2 and PBX1, among others, as FoxO-regulated mediators of endothelial cell morphogenesis and vascular homeostasis''

http://www.nature.co...lication_detail
'' we suspect that isotretinoin effects on endothelial/neutrophil intercations may be an importent site of action''

''we have reported preliminary information on inhibition of neutrophil migration through endotelial cell-coated filters by isotretinoin(4)''

The user annony takled about all this befor:
http://www.acne.org/...cutane/page-274
''And you can have no deficiencies in the blood but deficiencies in the cells when you have clogged medium (lymph) and in that case it's not a solution to take incredibly high amount of isolates to hope some will reach the cells, and if it does it will prevent other nutrients from reaching them & will create even more clogging & deficiencies. Health problems isn't deficiencies, it's lymph congestion which create a toxic clogged cells medium which cause cells to get self-poisoned and not being able to receive nutrients.''

he talked about cleaning the lymph as a way to heal
http://www.acne.org/...cutane/page-274
anonyy
''since there is only one solution to fix the cause and get cells healthy again, = cleansing the lymph to restore a clean alcaline (toxins free) medium.
Fixing the medium / cleansing the lymph take time when you are really weak (nervously / adrenals) but this is the only way, you can't regenerate anything in a clogged medium full of cellular waste & toxins (which are acidic), no supplement will help eliminate those except herbal one. And yes it can take years and it take self responsibility''

if this theory is right and correspond with anonny thoughts, then maybe long enough cycles of disactivation of foxo will help to clean those drainage pathways, because foxo activation causing waste which amplify the foxo activation, which amplify the waste which amplify foxo....

theoretically i think that such disactivation of foxo can maybe happen with such herbs which are cleaning lymph/kidney. and it is not suprising that alot they are mentioned as increaseing nitric oxide production- this will give more blood flow which will increase meeting energy demands which will stop foxo. maybe this need to be something like herbs followed by a sugary foods like frutis.
all the waste goes out with bile essistence or something like that, maybe ways which increase bile and also prevent it reapsorption can help eliminate the waste fast. also resting for not increasing energy demands is importent.maybe also l-aginine or citruline reach foods, all just thaghts.

maybe some tests can imply that the studies about nitric oxide reduction are relevant post accutane,
-https://en.wikipedia...g_.26_Diagnosis
-iNOS test if such exist,

again,those are all theoretical thaghts.

people talked here about increase weight after accutane, so it might contradict the idea that foxo stays upregulated post accutane.

Edited by Modeaa, 01 July 2015 - 06:09 PM.


#6844 Ottovisual

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:40 PM

 


Reporting in.
 
5 weeks using RSO now.
Total ingested 5 grams.
 
To be clear, the RSO is still dominating me at this moment. If things are going better/worse, the next week it could be vice versa. 
3 months after my last dosage I can give a objective review on side effects.
 
I started a new job this week which involves a lot of driving so I had to quit the daytime dose because I can't risk having a fuckup with dosing and driving.
What happens is the RSO produces massive amounts of melatonin which is a big healer but also a big sleeper. If someone is ill, the first thing they advise is to take a good night of sleep right ?  Imagine having a week of sleep pushed into 1 night.
Also like some already posted, your short term memory is pretty much in standby modus when the RSO is active ( probably its easier to induce sleeping this way ).
 
If I take a night (big) dose at 8 oclock I feel the melatonin 24 hours and feel quite sleepy the whole 24 hours.
If I dont take a dose, I will get massive amounts of energy, to the point where I want to run over the whole world. I feel like a little boy again playing in the woods with no energy limit.  ( maybe to rebound the massive melatonin wearing off ). 
 
The second week there was I point where I got random "new" youth memories. It felt like a door opened to a part of the brain which was locked due to depression. 
The moment when I got these memories it felt like synchronizing with my old me, I remembered who I was, I felt empathy again. Instead of black & white I felt colors. 
 
Today I also skipped the daytime dose and I can feel it wearing off when I stop my shift in the afternoon. 
I got home and I really really wanted to have sex with my girlfriend. I wanted to touch her body. I am looking for subtle words to explain this. I felt like a Greek god http:////dn4iqhjvtt39e.cloudfront.net/messageboard//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png
I cannot emphasize this enough though: Moments happen, they make me smile but whether its permanent or not I cannot tell at this point, I need to be off RSO for quite some time.
 
Currently I'm fixing the dosing issue, the key is consistency and tolerance. There comes a point where you ingest 1 gram a day and the only side effect is a good night rest. If I ingest 1 gram at my current tolerance point, I will be in lalaland for some days.
 
As for ingestion, I read somewhere Rick ( or one of his associates ) said the goal is to get the RSO to the stomach. I put my RSO in a vitamin like capsule and swallow it. About 1 hour later I feel it kicking in and then I can pull 12 - 16 hours of sleep. 
I tried different ways of ingestion, but this one is the easiest and most potent for me on top of that it follows the same route as accutane did so it can repair the whole accutane route. Rectal is said to be the most potent because of all the large blood vessels there and direct absorption into the blood. 
Recommended is 1 small daytime dose in the morning and a big sleeper for the evening. 
 
 
All the best,


Ottovisual,

Can you give us an update with the RSO? What were your post-Accutane side effects? What side effects disappeared with the RSO? What side effects still remain? Are you still using it? Thanks.
 

Hey everybody,

Dig in my archive of posts and you will find my full symptons.
I have been doing great, I would lie if I said I'm 100% cured but the good days outnumber the bad days.

Symptons that remained positive after a low protocol of RSO:

- Weight: I lost about 6-7 KG's after accutane. I was unable to regain those Kg's no matter how hard I trained, no matter what I ate. This is fully restored, I'm currently doing weightlifting and the muscles grow and grow.

- Gum/Dental Health: My gums remain perfectly in shape, my dentist has 0 complains. Before the RSO treatment it was rubbish, retreating and irritated.

- Skin: No more dry skin.

- Libido: So, my libido went from 100 to 60 - 70 post accutane. At this point I would say I'm 90 again. Inmediatly after accutane I got a girlfriend and we are six years together. If I was single I would be 100 again I'm sure. What I noticing now is when I'm flirting with a girl I feel the blood charging my penis and a instant boner is following. Pre-RSO this wasn't the case.

- GI tract: RSO did alot for my GI-Tract, only thing I'm doing now is a probiotic and good fermented food. I have regular bowels and the texture and everything is perfect.


This that still remained negative / midly negative.

- Brain fog. Although people said my personality positively changed when I took RSO ( and they didnt know I took it ) my brain didn't returned back to the extreme sharpness I had before accutane.
Pre-accutane all these verbally options shooted from my sub-councious into my counsciousness when I was discussing something. Post-accutane I felt like a child, just following other people and no input from my side. After the RSO my memory improved ALOT, these random youth memories were shooting through my brain and that made me very very happy.
But the brain fog / alertness pretty much remained the same.
These months I supplemented with some nootropics and Astaxanthin. Now the Astaxanthin pretty much clears my brain fog and give me ALOT of clarity and when I add a nootropic like Piracetam or Noopept I'm 100% myself again. I also firmly believe these nootropics can restore our disrupted brain networks. I'm making 17 hours a day again just like pre accutane and have alot of energy.

Eye-Floaters: Now I speak alot of people who smoked weed and they reported that the floaters increased when using and it took them some years to get some relieve again. Also when I use Astaxanthin and a Nootropic it decreases alot. Also, the only thing we can change about floaters is the perception of floaters. They are always there.

Tinnitus: Decreased from 100 to 60. Again I think this is a brain thing, I dont think it's my ears, I think there are some nerves in my brain over-sensitive or over-simulating.

Sleep: While on RSO you sleep like a baby. I think sleep is a big focus area for us. I dont think we sleep like we should, and we dont recover like normal people do. So while on the RSO the sleep was perfect, but after it was crap.

Just a quick summary of my current health.

My current stack

Astaxanthin - for brain fog
Piracetam or Noopept or Aniracetam - To stimulate my brain again and repairing the disrupted brain networks
ZMA - before bed, to improve the quality of my sleep. This is one the most important supplements I take and very cost effective. Make me dream again so I know I'm doing quality sleep

There are days where I have the full access to my intelligence, where all the suggestions are shooting through my counciousness and the words just roll out my mouth. Where I have full control of the words I'm saying and where I can plan the sentence visually in my head so I can choose the strategy in a discussion. I also can predict people's reaction based on their personality. Just like pre-tane. So things look very good.
These last years are basically years of detoxifying and then years of rebuilding my body and soul. And I'm current;y rebuilding my body and soul.
Still there are days where I have full blown brain fog but this is always followed on a bad night of sleep.

I'm off to get some food.
If you have any questions, just Pm me.
Oh yeah, for the nootropics, some people experience lowered libido for the first weeks. Just read the reports on reddit.

- Otto.

#6845 Trapt

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:06 PM

Otto, This is great news! I hope that you continue to improve and will soon be at 100%. I have just a couple more questions. When did you stop taking the RSO and how much do you think you ingested? Was it 10 grams in about 2.5/3 months? Also, did your hair loss stop and your hair and nail quality improve? Also, I think you mentioned minor joint pains and your shoulder grinding. Did those go away? Can you eat foods containing vitamin A or take multi-vitamins again without problems now? Oh, and one more question, did you experience worsening of your side effects when you were taking the RSO? I know you mentioned fatigue, but nothing about you feeling miserable while taking it, correct? I have been seriously considering trying it, but I think I will probably have quite a severe reaction to it. Heck, now I go from bad to miserable after taking most supplements and eating most food. The only thing that I seem to tolerate these days are water and magnesium.

#6846 Trapt

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:55 PM

Does anyone else here have excruciating pain in all of their muscles along with sluggish blood flow? I haven't found any accutane users who complain of such pain. That is my main complaint. It's absolutely debilitating. Nothing has helped it at all :/

I have poor circulation and muscle pain. However, the muscle pain is usually not excruciating. I noticed it first in my forearms and lower back while on Accucrap. I would hold the phone to my ear or lift a fork or spoon to my mouth and in under a minute, my forearm would start burning, as if I had held up my arm for hours. Same thing with my lower back. When I would bend over for a short period, it would start burning. After being off the crap for about 9 months, the muscle pain spread and got worse. The back of my neck and upper back would start burning after reading on the computer for a few minutes. When I raise up my arms to do simple tasks like to hang up clothes, my arms are so sore. When I walk a little, my lower legs (mainly shins) burn. It feels just like lactic acid is building up in my muscles, as if my body ran some sort of marathon or something. Also, the rare times that I work out now, those specific muscles that I work out will feel so hot later that night. The next morning it feels like someone took a baseball bat to those muscles. If I do more strenuous tasks, like if I use a weed eater, my arms literally feel like they are on fire. This was definitely excruciating. In the last couple of months, the muscle pain has not been so bad, but I have lost a lot of muscle all over my body, so maybe that is why they don't hurt as bad. I'm not really sure.

#6847 wishicouldcry

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 07:10 PM

RSO will do nothing but get you stoned, the healing properties of cannabis are real but you are going to at the same time become a "pot head" Not a sacrifice that many are willing to make, I will pass on the pot ;)
Message me i want to chat with fellow accutaned!

#6848 marlin15

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:03 PM

i would trade accutane sides with the label of being a pothead any day of the week

#6849 macleod

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:06 PM

I would trade accutane sides with a limb of my choosing. preferably the lower left leg.

#6850 yetanotheraccutanevictim

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Posted Yesterday, 08:02 AM

pathtorecovery91:
He has somewheres around 50,000 subscribers on Youtube. He mentioned several times how he is making videos for the rest of his life because he enjoys it so much.

With the exposure and followers he has, he could easily make an accutane side effects youtube channel and literally have tens of thousands of people to support it.

Here is the link to his channel https://www.youtube..../HumerusFitness

@pathtorecover91
As cynical as this sounds, I hope for our sake that he does start getting side effects. I want people to start realizing the effects this drug can have. Here is a comparison of his hair from week 1 on accutane to week 81: http://gyazo.com/9ef...127f63c043e0744
We'll see it progress as time goes on I'm sure.

@Modeaa
Thank you so much for linking all those studies about nitric oxide. I do dry skin brushing, sauna, walking, and exercise for lymph drainage. I'll look into using something like L-arginine to help me along. I've seen on two high quality tests that I've been deficient in vitamin C despite heavy supplementation and a diet high in vegetable juices. I think that may also relate to endothelium health and sluggish blood flow. I also have red dots all over my tongue. It's like I have some sort of chronic infection like a virus or something. Maybe the infection is causing me to use all my vitamin C for that instead of other less important things like my collagen production (endothelium health).

@Trapt "I would hold the phone to my ear or lift a fork or spoon to my mouth and in under a minute, my forearm would start burning, as if I had held up my arm for hours."

Really appreciate you sharing your detailed experiences with you muscular pain. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one having that horrible side effect. You described it perfectly. It does feel like lactic acid is just built up in the muscles. I also can't lift my arms up for very long. If I flex any muscle, it feels as if I had just worked out that particular muscle the previous day (which I didn't). I used to work out quite seriously for an hour or two a day six days a week. After accutane, I stopped completely for at least 6 months. I am now just starting back (VERY slowly). I can do something light once a week - But only if I do large body movements that evenly distribute the load to all of my joints and muscles (deadlifts, squats, free weight bench press w/ dumbbells, etc). I can't do movements that try to isolate muscles - puts too much strain on that area. Also, it helps to go EXTREMELY slow.

If others are interested in working out but have loads of pain, check out Body by Science by Doug McGuff (great video is his 21 convention talk). It's about super-slow exercise - very effective and minimizes the force on your body.

Also, paying $100-200 for a full set of Jill Miller yoga balls, Kelly Starrett's Battlestar, and The Grid foam roller have absolutely saved me. HIGHLY recommend these products. Jill has a great book - the Roll Model and Kelly does as well - Becoming a Supple Leopard. Their techniques have minimized my pain greatly. I just roll for about 15min a day. Gets rid of the pain immediately. And it makes long lasting changes in my tissues. I feel a lot more loose. Before I started using myofascial release techniques, I could NEVER exercise. Just turn on some good music or a podcast and roll away your pain. FANTASTIC stress reliever as well. It gives you the same feeling you get after you receive a massage. I do this at night to put me into a calm, parasympathetic state. By the way, everyone here should walk at least 30 min a day. I walk barefoot in the grass for the grounding effects and the cushioned blows to my knees and ankles. Really takes the pain out of it. Oh, and get a standing desk... That was also a major game changer for me. Be sure to use a really cushioned pad to stand on - like an anti-fatigue mat.

@Trapt
EDIT: Couple questions: Oh, and are you able to work or go to school? I had to both quit my job and drop out of college because of my pain. How many months post accutane are you? It's been 2 and a half years for me. Also, do you have any tingling or twitchiness in your limbs or fingers? I get little tics and odd happenings in my limbs/wrists/feet etc. Quite strange. It's like I'm deficient in magnesium or electrolytes or something (but I'm not).

There is probably an infectious component to a lot of our issues. Accutane DESTROYS your immune system. I have the immune system of an 80 year old (I'm 21) as indicated by two Immunidex tests.
If anyone is interested in diagnosing chronic infections and recovering from them, mark your calendar for july 25th (paleo convention berlin). Paul Jaminet (an excellent researcher and fellow accutane victim) will be giving a talk. Paul: "Ill be speaking on the role of chronic infections in our health, and how we can optimize our health in a world full of germs, not all of them friendly. For those who are unwell, Ill give practical tips for how to diagnose and fix what is ailing you."

EDIT2:
Check out my hair loss progress. Thought you guys would be interested. There is hope that things can get better.
Not the best comparison photos but interesting nonetheless.
https://www.dropbox....8YqqVC2KZa?dl=0

Edited by yetanotheraccutanevictim, Yesterday, 08:47 AM.

link to a few of my test results. if anyone cares to take a look and discovers some abnormalities I should pay attention to, please let me know.
goo.gl/uPQloZ

#6851 Modeaa

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Posted Yesterday, 02:09 PM

maybe accutane as an anti cancer drug decrease creation of new blood vessels and impaird blood flow (needed for tumors as well normal cells).

https://en.wikipedia..._oxide_synthase
''Endothelial NOS (eNOS), also known as nitric oxide synthase 3 (NOS3), generates NO in blood vessels and is involved with regulating vascular function''

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Endothelium
''The endothelium is the thin layer of simple squamous cells that lines the interior surface of blood vessels and lymphatic vessels,[1] forming an interface between circulating blood or lymph in the lumen and the rest of the vessel wall. The cells that form the endothelium are called endothelial cells. Endothelial cells in direct contact with blood are called vascular endothelial cells, whereas those in direct contact with lymph are known as lymphatic endothelial cells.

Vascular endothelial cells line the entire circulatory system, from the heart to the smallest capillaries. These cells have unique functions in vascular biology. These functions include fluid filtration, such as in the glomeruli of the kidney, blood vessel tone, hemostasis, neutrophil recruitment, and hormone trafficking. Endothelium of the interior surfaces of the heart chambers is called endocardium.''

'' Endothelial cells are involved in many aspects of vascular biology, including:

- Barrier function - the endothelium acts as a semi-selective barrier between the vessel lumen and surrounding tissue, controlling the passage of materials and the transit of white blood cells into and out of the bloodstream. Excessive or prolonged increases in permeability of the endothelial monolayer, as in cases of chronic inflammation, may lead to tissue edema/swelling.
- Blood clotting (thrombosis & fibrinolysis). The endothelium normally provides a non-thrombogenic surface because it contains, for example, heparan sulfate which acts as a cofactor for activating antithrombin, a protease that inactivates several factors in the coagulation cascade.
- Inflammation
- Formation of new blood vessels (angiogenesis)
- Vasoconstriction and vasodilation, and hence the control of blood pressure
- Repair of damaged or diseased organs via an injection of blood vessel cells[6]
- Angiopoietin-2 works with VEGF to facilitate cell proliferation and migration of endothelial cells ''

*VEGF (vascular endtelial growth factor) -acorfding to wiki one type of VEGF function is lymphogenesis (formation of lymphatic vessels). from things that i read - VEGF activity can be redcued by some gene (Semaphorin 3A) and this gene been shown also to increase igfb6 (which been shown to be increased by all trans retinoic acid).
https://en.wikipedia...ki/Angiopoietin
''The expression of Angiopoietin-2 in the absence of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) leads to endothelial cell death and vascular regression''
this study headline: ''Semaphorin 3A upregulates FOXO 3a-dependent MelCAM expression leading to attenuation of breast tumor growth and angiogenesis''
(http://palgrave.natu...onc201479a.html).
i think that all those show that foxo activation reduce angiogenesis and lympogenesis.


as mentioned above, endotelial cells are importent for the process of Formation of new blood vessels (angiogenesis).(sorry my browsere dont display the toolbar for some reason so i cand bold) here is a study which sais that foxo decrease angiogenesis and eNOS
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/16100571/
''Here, we show that Foxo1 and Foxo3a are the most abundant Foxo isoforms in mature endothelial cells and that overexpression of constitutively active Foxo1 or Foxo3a, but not Foxo4, significantly inhibits endothelial cell migration and tube formation in vitro. Silencing of either Foxo1 or Foxo3a gene expression led to a profound increase in the migratory and sprout-forming capacity of endothelial cells. Gene expression profiling showed that Foxo1 and Foxo3a specifically regulate a nonredundant but overlapping set of angiogenesis- and vascular remodeling-related genes. Whereas angiopoietin 2 (Ang2) was exclusively regulated by Foxo1, eNOS, which is essential for postnatal neovascularization, was regulated by Foxo1 and Foxo3a. Consistent with these findings, constitutively active Foxo1 and Foxo3a repressed eNOS protein expression and bound to the eNOS promoter. In vivo, Foxo3a deficiency increased eNOS expression and enhanced postnatal vessel formation and maturation. Thus, our data suggest an important role for Foxo transcription factors in the regulation of vessel formation in the adult.''


i wonder if some type of retinoic acid supose to give a signal for stoping foxo, not activating it as accutane.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3327127/
9-Cis Retinoic Acid Promotes Lymphangiogenesis and Enhances Lymphatic Vessel Regeneration: Therapeutic Implications of 9-Cis Retinoic Acid for Secondary Lymphedema

''We report that RAs promote proliferation, migration and tube formation of cultured lymphatic endothelial cells (LECs) by activating FGF-receptor signaling.''

''Since RAs have been reported to induce growth arrest of many different types of cells, including immortalized B-cells 8, breast cancer cells 27 and neuronal cells 10 through an upregulation of CDK inhibitors, we studied the 9-cisRA regulation of various cell-cycle regulators in LECs. In contrast to previous studies, two major CDK inhibitors, p27Kip1 (CDKN1B) and p57Kip2 (CDKN1C), were strongly downregulated in 9-cisRA-treated LECs based on real-time RT-PCR (qRT-PCR), Western blot and immunofluorescence studies (Figure 3AD). Importantly, it has been reported that p27Kip1 and p57Kip2 function as key cell-cycle brakes and that their inhibition is sufficient to induce the cells to enter the S-phase of the cell cycle 28.''
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Attention to glucocorticoid/glucocorticoid receptor when reading. i wonder if this can effect the body post accutane with or without foxo activation.
http://journals.plos...al.pone.0042166
''In the present study, we show that FOXO3 is an immediate early glucocorticoid receptor (GR) target, whose transcription is even further enhanced by conditions that mimic metabolic stress''

http://www.google.co...2647374A1?cl=en
''Muscle atrophy occurs systemically in fasting and a variety of diseases including cancer, diabetes mellitus, acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS), sepsis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), and in some muscles, upon disuse. In these conditions, muscles show increased rates of protein degradation primarily through activation of the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. In addition, muscular atrophy is associated with an increase in circulating glucocorticoid levels, suggesting that this hormone may be a trigger for muscular atrophy. A primary action of glucocorticoid in muscle is to inhibit the PI3K/Akt signaling pathway, thereby reducing mTOR activation and inducing forkhead box O activity and atrogin-1 transcription''

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20371624
FOXO3a mediates signaling crosstalk that coordinates ubiquitin and atrogin-1/MAFbx expression during glucocorticoid-induced skeletal muscle atrophy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18612045
''The glucocorticoid receptor and FOXO1 synergistically activate the skeletal muscle atrophy-associated MuRF1 gene.''

I'm wondering if reduced glucotricoid activity or receptor sesetivity could happen post accutane.
now if you want read the , here are some function of glucotricoid and maybe some possible realted to accutane side effects.

https://en.wikipedia.../Glucocorticoid
''Glucocorticoids (GCs) are a class of steroid hormones that bind to the glucocorticoid receptor (GR),[1] which is present in almost every vertebrate animal cell. The name glucocorticoid (glucose + cortex + steroid) derives from its role in the regulation of the metabolism of glucose, its synthesis in the adrenal cortex,

Metabolic effects:
Stimulation of gluconeogenesis, in particular, in the liver: This pathway results in the synthesis of glucose from nonhexose substrates, such as amino acids and glycerol from triglyceride breakdown, and is particularly important in carnivores and certain herbivores. Enhancing the expression of enzymes involved in gluconeogenesis is probably the best-known metabolic function of glucocorticoids.
Mobilization of amino acids from extrahepatic tissues: These serve as substrates for gluconeogenesis.
Inhibition of glucose uptake in muscle and adipose tissue: A mechanism to conserve glucose
Stimulation of fat breakdown in adipose tissue: The fatty acids released by lipolysis are used for production of energy in tissues like muscle, and the released glycerol provide another substrate for gluconeogenesis.

...Arousal and cognition

A graphical representation of the Yerkes-Dodson curve
Glucocorticoids act on the hippocampus, amygdala, and frontal lobes. Along with adrenaline, these enhance the formation of flashbulb memories of events associated with strong emotions, both positive and negative.[5] This has been confirmed in studies, whereby blockade of either glucocorticoids or noradrenaline activity impaired the recall of emotionally relevant information. Additional sources have shown subjects whose fear learning was accompanied by high cortisol levels had better consolidation of this memory (this effect was more important in men). The effect that glucocorticoids have on memory may be due to damage specifically to the CA1 area of the hippocampal formation. In multiple animal studies, prolonged stress (causing prolonged increases in glucocorticoid levels) have shown destruction of the neurons in this area of the brain, which has been connected to memory performance.[6][7][8]
Glucocorticoids have also been shown to have a significant impact on vigilance (attention deficit disorder) and cognition (memory). This appears to follow the Yerkes-Dodson curve, as studies have shown circulating levels of glucocorticoids vs. memory performance follow an upside-down U pattern, much like the Yerkes-Dodson curve. For example, long-term potentiation (LTP; the process of forming long-term memories) is optimal when glucocorticoid levels are mildly elevated, whereas significant decreases of LTP are observed after adrenalectomy (low-GC state) or after exogenous glucocorticoid administration (high-GC state). Elevated levels of glucocorticoids enhance memory for emotionally arousing events, but lead more often than not to poor memory for material unrelated to the source of stress/emotional arousal.[9] In contrast to the dose-dependent enhancing effects of glucocorticoids on memory consolidation, these stress hormones have been shown to inhibit the retrieval of already stored information.[10] Long-term exposure to glucocorticoid medications, such as asthma and anti-inflammatory medication, has been shown to create deficits in memory and attention both during and, to a lesser extent, after treatment,[11][12] a condition known as "steroid dementia."[13]

Body fluid homeostasis
Glucocorticoids could act centrally, as well as peripherally, to assist in the normalization of extracellular fluid volume by regulating bodys action to atrial natriuretic peptide (ANP). Centrally, glucocorticoids could inhibit dehydration induced water intake;[14] peripherally, glucocorticoids could induce a potent diuresis.[15]

Cannabinoid CB1 receptor decrease
Prolonged glucocorticoid treatment decreases cannabinoid CB1 receptor density in the hippocampus.[16]

...Side effects
Glucocorticoid drugs currently being used act nonselectively, so in the long run they may impair many healthy anabolic processes. To prevent this, much research has been focused recently on the elaboration of selectively acting glucocorticoid drugs. Side effects include:
Immunodeficiency (see section below)
Hyperglycemia due to increased gluconeogenesis, insulin resistance, and impaired glucose tolerance ("steroid diabetes"); caution in those with diabetes mellitus
Increased skin fragility, easy bruising
Negative calcium balance due to reduced intestinal calcium absorption[31]
Steroid-induced osteoporosis: reduced bone density (osteoporosis, osteonecrosis, higher fracture risk, slower fracture repair)
Weight gain due to increased visceral and truncal fat deposition (central obesity) and appetite stimulation
Hypercortisolemia with prolonged or excessive use (also known as, exogenous Cushing's syndrome)
Impaired memory and attention deficits[32]
Adrenal insufficiency (if used for long time and stopped suddenly without a taper)
Muscle breakdown (proteolysis), weakness, reduced muscle mass and repair
Expansion of malar fat pads and dilation of small blood vessels in skin
Lipomatosis within the epidural space[33]
Excitatory effect on central nervous system (euphoria, psychosis)
Anovulation, irregularity of menstrual periods
Growth failure, delayed puberty
Increased plasma amino acids, increased urea formation, negative nitrogen balance
Glaucoma due to increased ocular pressure
Cataracts

...Withdrawal
In addition to the effects listed above, use of high-dose steroids for more than a week begins to produce suppression of the patient's adrenal glands because the exogenous glucocorticoids suppress hypothalamic corticotropin-releasing hormone and pituitary adrenocorticotropic hormone. With prolonged suppression, the adrenal glands atrophy (physically shrink), and can take months to recover full function after discontinuation of the exogenous glucocorticoid.
During this recovery time, the patient is vulnerable to adrenal insufficiency during times of stress, such as illness. While suppressive dose and time for adrenal recovery vary widely, clinical guidelines have been devised to estimate potential adrenal suppression and recovery, to reduce risk to the patient.he following is one example:

If patients have been receiving daily high doses for five days or less, they can be abruptly stopped (or reduced to physiologic replacement if patients are adrenal-deficient). Full adrenal recovery can be assumed to occur by a week afterward.
If high doses were used for six to 10 days, reduce to replacement dose immediately and taper over four more days. Adrenal recovery can be assumed to occur within two to four weeks of completion of steroids.
If high doses were used for 1130 days, cut immediately to twice replacement, and then by 25% every four days. Stop entirely when dose is less than half of replacement. Full adrenal recovery should occur within one to three months of completion of withdrawal.
If high doses were used more than 30 days, cut dose immediately to twice replacement, and reduce by 25% each week until replacement is reached. Then change to oral hydrocortisone or cortisone as a single morning dose, and gradually decrease by 2.5 mg each week. When the morning dose is less than replacement, the return of normal basal adrenal function may be documented by checking 0800 cortisol levels prior to the morning dose; stop drugs when 0800 cortisol is 10 μg/dl. Predicting the time to full adrenal recovery after prolonged suppressive exogenous steroids is difficult; some people may take nearly a year.
Flare-up of the underlying condition for which steroids are given may require a more gradual taper than outlined above.''

Edited by Modeaa, Yesterday, 03:18 PM.


#6852 Trapt

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Posted Yesterday, 08:00 PM

@Yetanotheraccutanevictim
I am 5 years post Accucrap and I have not been able to work for a long time now. I have muscle spasms/twitching all over my body (I thought it was my blood vessels at first) which started about a year ago. Also, I have muscle spasms in my ears according to Google when I searched 'clicking sounds in ears.' The only thing that showed abnormal during that time was that I was low in vitamin D. I have tried taking vitamin D and magnesium, but I have not seen any improvement in my spasms. However, the magnesium has helped me sleep better and I have not noticed any worsening in my side effects with it, so it is the only supplement that I continue to take. Vitamin D on the other hand immediately made my skin drier, increased my skin peeling and increased my bone pain, so I stopped taking it. I have numbness and tingling down my arms, hands, feet, and sometimes my entire legs. It is definitely worse when I am still for awhile like when I am sleeping or sitting down on the couch. Also, I have extremely cold hands and feet and here lately my nose and back are cold. Magnesium seems to help a little with these symptoms.

I too have many of the similar supplements that you have in your supplement graveyard. I have two 6 feet long shelves in my pantry dedicated to trying to fix this mess. Before Accucrap, I had one supplement, a bottle of multi-vitamins that I would rarely take. Now, its just gotten way out of hand. Also, I went down the same route with the whole H pylori thing and SIBO. The only difference was that I tested positive all three times that they tested me for SIBO. However, the antibiotics did nothing for my digestive problems, or made me feel worse. I believe I had tried 10 different antibiotics and even more natural anti-bacterial supplements. In the early stages of this nightmare, my liver enzymes were extremely high and I tested positive for H pylori about one week after finishing Accucrap when I was vomiting and having excruciating abdominal pain. My doctor thought H pylori was responsible for my symptoms (found out later it was actually gallstones caused by the birth control pills required to take along with Accucrap, H pylori was just the innocent victim). However, I felt really good during this time despite the episodes of vomiting and abdominal pain. It was exactly one month post-Accucrap that something went horribly wrong. I just crashed. I woke up feeling tired, bloated, had dry hair, and wrinkly dry skin. It didn't occur to me until earlier this year that Accucrap was behind my above symptoms plus the increasing number of symptoms I have experienced over the years. It was always in the back of my mind throughout these years, but I don't really think I was ready to believe it. What if? Awww nah, can't be. Why do my muscles and joints hurt like I am still taking....oh, no stop it. I guess it was some sort of mental block. All this time I thought my digestive problems were caused by SIBO or the H pylori antibiotics or my gallbladder and that once I fixed my digestive system, all the other symptoms would just vanish. Unfortunately, I got a perfectly fine gallbladder removed end of last year. No gallstones, nothing. I still have this heavy pain behind my right rib cage. I still have all the same symptoms plus my newest symptom, the bat-freaking-crazy tinnitus. Before I got my gallbladder removed, I told the surgeon if its not my gallbladder then its got to be my liver. After he removed my gallbladder, he said he looked closely at my liver and said it could not look any better. Eh, I wish he would have biopsied it.

I thought I had thorough lab testing done throughout the years, but after looking at your test results, mine is nowhere near as in depth to yours. Im very curious about what the doctor had to say about your abnormal blood work, low WBCs, low platelets, high alkaline phosphatase, bone%, liver%, neutrophils, lymphs, etc. What about your high B12? My B12 keeps going up too despite not taking any B12. Did you take any thyroid supplements to lower your TSH? Did you take hormones to raise your testosterone? Did you feel any better with lower TSH and higher testosterone? Did you notice that your muscle pain got worse with higher testosterone? Also, when you were deficient in vitamin A, were you avoiding vitamin A foods? Did you feel any better, worse or the same while raising your vitamin A?

Besides jumping from doctor to doctor to doctor, I did go to a naturopath and a nutritionist who works with cancer patients and athletes and I will go through my huge stack of medical records to see what they recommended to try to help. I didn't try much of the supplements that they recommended because I feel so bad when I take most supplements. I know that the naturopath said I was deficient in zinc and my oxidative stress level was high.

Edited by Trapt, Yesterday, 08:07 PM.


#6853 Trapt

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Posted Yesterday, 09:04 PM

I have attached the reports that I got from the nutritionist and the naturopathic doctor with their recommendations. The naturopathic doctor recommend B12 at the time because it was low 3 years ago, but it just keeps increasing for some strange reason. Let me know if you have any questions or if the nutritionist's report is too difficult to read.

Edit: It's not on here, but the naturopathic doctor gave me a zinc solution which tasted like water to me, so she said I was deficient in zinc. She said I would have tasted something if I wasn't deficient.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  Nut.pdf   440.18K   17 downloads
  • Attached File  Nat.pdf   618.48K   12 downloads

Edited by Trapt, Yesterday, 09:25 PM.


#6854 vianello

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Posted Today, 01:09 AM

@yetanotheraccutanevictim He just got a hair cut! you cant compare those. Go three videos back and he still has the same hair quality.

#6855 Modeaa

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Posted Today, 05:14 AM

Platelets:

https://en.wikipedia...hrombocytopenia
''Thrombocytopenia and thrombopenia refer to a disorder in which there is a relative decrease of thrombocytes, commonly known as platelets, present in the blood.[1]''
''
''Thrombocytopenia-inducing medications include:'' .....''Isotretinoin''

''Diagnosis
Laboratory tests might include: full blood count, liver enzymes, kidney function, vitamin B12 levels, folic acid levels, erythrocyte sedimentation rate, and peripheral blood smear. If the cause for the low platelet count remains unclear, a bone marrow biopsy is usually recommended, to differentiate whether the low platelet count is due to decreased production or peripheral destruction.[15]''


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platelet
The main function of platelets is to contribute to hemostasis: the process of stopping bleeding at the site of interrupted endothelium. They gather at the site and unless the interruption is physically too large, they plug the hole.

Edited by Modeaa, Today, 05:15 AM.


#6856 pathtorecovery91

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Posted Today, 05:43 AM



pathtorecovery91:
He has somewheres around 50,000 subscribers on Youtube. He mentioned several times how he is making videos for the rest of his life because he enjoys it so much.

With the exposure and followers he has, he could easily make an accutane side effects youtube channel and literally have tens of thousands of people to support it.

Here is the link to his channel https://www.youtube..../HumerusFitness

@pathtorecover91
As cynical as this sounds, I hope for our sake that he does start getting side effects. I want people to start realizing the effects this drug can have. Here is a comparison of his hair from week 1 on accutane to week 81: http://gyazo.com/9ef...127f63c043e0744
We'll see it progress as time goes on I'm sure.

@Modeaa
Thank you so much for linking all those studies about nitric oxide. I do dry skin brushing, sauna, walking, and exercise for lymph drainage. I'll look into using something like L-arginine to help me along. I've seen on two high quality tests that I've been deficient in vitamin C despite heavy supplementation and a diet high in vegetable juices. I think that may also relate to endothelium health and sluggish blood flow. I also have red dots all over my tongue. It's like I have some sort of chronic infection like a virus or something. Maybe the infection is causing me to use all my vitamin C for that instead of other less important things like my collagen production (endothelium health).

@Trapt "I would hold the phone to my ear or lift a fork or spoon to my mouth and in under a minute, my forearm would start burning, as if I had held up my arm for hours."

Really appreciate you sharing your detailed experiences with you muscular pain. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one having that horrible side effect. You described it perfectly. It does feel like lactic acid is just built up in the muscles. I also can't lift my arms up for very long. If I flex any muscle, it feels as if I had just worked out that particular muscle the previous day (which I didn't). I used to work out quite seriously for an hour or two a day six days a week. After accutane, I stopped completely for at least 6 months. I am now just starting back (VERY slowly). I can do something light once a week - But only if I do large body movements that evenly distribute the load to all of my joints and muscles (deadlifts, squats, free weight bench press w/ dumbbells, etc). I can't do movements that try to isolate muscles - puts too much strain on that area. Also, it helps to go EXTREMELY slow.

If others are interested in working out but have loads of pain, check out Body by Science by Doug McGuff (great video is his 21 convention talk). It's about super-slow exercise - very effective and minimizes the force on your body.

Also, paying $100-200 for a full set of Jill Miller yoga balls, Kelly Starrett's Battlestar, and The Grid foam roller have absolutely saved me. HIGHLY recommend these products. Jill has a great book - the Roll Model and Kelly does as well - Becoming a Supple Leopard. Their techniques have minimized my pain greatly. I just roll for about 15min a day. Gets rid of the pain immediately. And it makes long lasting changes in my tissues. I feel a lot more loose. Before I started using myofascial release techniques, I could NEVER exercise. Just turn on some good music or a podcast and roll away your pain. FANTASTIC stress reliever as well. It gives you the same feeling you get after you receive a massage. I do this at night to put me into a calm, parasympathetic state. By the way, everyone here should walk at least 30 min a day. I walk barefoot in the grass for the grounding effects and the cushioned blows to my knees and ankles. Really takes the pain out of it. Oh, and get a standing desk... That was also a major game changer for me. Be sure to use a really cushioned pad to stand on - like an anti-fatigue mat.

@Trapt
EDIT: Couple questions: Oh, and are you able to work or go to school? I had to both quit my job and drop out of college because of my pain. How many months post accutane are you? It's been 2 and a half years for me. Also, do you have any tingling or twitchiness in your limbs or fingers? I get little tics and odd happenings in my limbs/wrists/feet etc. Quite strange. It's like I'm deficient in magnesium or electrolytes or something (but I'm not).

There is probably an infectious component to a lot of our issues. Accutane DESTROYS your immune system. I have the immune system of an 80 year old (I'm 21) as indicated by two Immunidex tests.
If anyone is interested in diagnosing chronic infections and recovering from them, mark your calendar for july 25th (paleo convention berlin). Paul Jaminet (an excellent researcher and fellow accutane victim) will be giving a talk. Paul: "Ill be speaking on the role of chronic infections in our health, and how we can optimize our health in a world full of germs, not all of them friendly. For those who are unwell, Ill give practical tips for how to diagnose and fix what is ailing you."

EDIT2:
Check out my hair loss progress. Thought you guys would be interested. There is hope that things can get better.
Not the best comparison photos but interesting nonetheless.
https://www.dropbox....8YqqVC2KZa?dl=0

Are you doing anything for your hair? I just started using 15% minoxidil and been doing lllt and taking pumpkin seed oil, fish oil, ashwhaganda and biotin for a month or so. Also using keto shampoo 3xs a week.

I have been literally losing hundred's of hair a day, even on my sides. If by some miricle I see my hair stop falling and regrowth I will post pics to update. I started taking pics for minoxidil progress along with the couple other things I'm doing.

Edited by pathtorecovery91, Today, 05:49 AM.



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