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Repairing the long-term damage from Accutane

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#3961 anonyy

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:39 PM

"a reduced all-trans retinoic acid inactivation process after 13-cis retinoic acid treatment as compared with treatment with all-trans retinoic acid"
"De novo mRNA expression of cytochrome P450 1A1, a major xenobiotic metabolizing enzyme, in SZ95 sebocytes was induced by all-trans retinoic acid, but not by 13-cis retinoic acid."
"
Both 13-cis retinoic acid and all-trans retinoic acid suppressed mRNA expression of cytochrome P450 1A2."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10951254

It is shown here that bovine liver membranes, but not supernatant fractions, can isomerize all-trans-retinoic acid into 9-cis-retinoic acid and 13-cis-retinoic acid. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1138294/

"It had previously been shown that S2 cells and COS-1 cells could isomerize all-trans-retinoic acid to generate 9-cis-retinoic acid and 13-cis-retinoic acid [11-13]."

"However, the observed non-stereospecific isomerization process appears to mimic closely what is observed when all-trans-retinoic acid is added to COS-1 or S2 cells in culture [11-13]. Here, large amounts of 13-cis-retinoic acid were generated in addition to 9-cis-retinoic acid."

-"Human small intestine can isomerize all-trans-retinoic acid. 13-cis- Retinoic acid is the predominant cis isomer after incubation of intestinal mucosa homogenates with all-trans-retinoic acid."
-"Recently, it was found that both all-trans- and 13-cis-RA are metabolized to 13-cis-4-oxo-RA in vitamin A- sufficient hamsters (5). Studies have demonstrated that both all-trans- and 13-cis-RA in a ratio of 2:l are present in the intestinal mucosa of bile duct-cannulated rats shortly after the administration of all-trans-RA (6, 7)."
-"Thus, after the subtraction of 13-cis-RA formed from the controls (1.0 ng), the incuba- tion of intestinal mucosa homogenates with all-trans-RA (26 ng) resulted in the formation of 2.8 to 8.3 ng of 13- cis-RA which corresponded to formation of 0.1 to 0.2 ng 13-cis-RAlh per mg protein"

-"The appearance of 13-cis-RA was linearly dependent on the protein concentration of intestinal mucosa from the same subject (in a typical experiment, the equation of the regression line was Y = 0.012 + 1.226X, r * 0.99996) but not between individual subjects who had different protein concentrations."
-"The presence of 13-cis-RA as the predominant form of RA in human urine under normal physiological condi- tions recently has been reported (18). A prior study has demonstrated that 13-cis-RA is an in vivo metabolite of all-trans-RA in the intestinal mucosa of rats (17). In our experiments, human intestinal mucosa homogenates were used, and the data obtained presented unequivocal evidence of in vitro formation of 13-cis-RA from all-trans-RA. Although it is reasonable to assume that all-trans-RA can be converted to isomers other than 13-cis-RA (such as 
13-cis-, 11-cis-, 9,13-di-cis-, etc.), our studies using the human small intestine and our analysis of human serumshowed that 13-cis-RA is the predominant cis isomer. Thisis consistent with the isomerization patterns of all-transRA that were obtained by us in both photo and catalyticisomerization experiments of all-trans-RA (G. Tang andR. M. Russell, unpublished results)." 
-"Although 13-cis-RA in human serum is most likely an isomerization metabolite of all-trans-RA, it is possible that 13-cis-RA is an oxidation metabolite of 13- cis-retinol as well."
http://www.jlr.org/c.../2/175.full.pdf

They say in the last article that both all-trans-RA & 13-cis-RA (accutane) level are reduced by fasting, but that's kinda predictable..

Maybe accutane caused a modification of the intestine who synthetise/convert in excess all-trans-RA (in our case when we took 13-cis-RA for more than 6month, i believe in their trial it was just 1-2weeks)? It is known that the intestines adapt to changes (in the case of the flora who isn't affected directly i think). We took at least 100 lifetime dose of this natural occuring 13-cis-RA in only 6month, i find that strange that all is simply expelled in only 2month after treatment..

But wtf is happening with those isomerization, all-trans convert into 13-cis, then the intestine (& others cells of the body) convert it back to all-trans. Plus, both of them are suppressing one of their conjugation enzyme (CYP1A2) and only all-trans induced CYP1A1. Its impossible to mesure exactly if all accutane (13-cis-RA have been back to normal levels in all part of the body (not only bloodstream) in those conditions. There is something strange about those retinoic acids...

The big question is what the purpose of this naturally occuring 13-cis-RA? nobody knows... And if that was the way of the body to handle the all-trans-RA ? to disable it when it doenst need trans-RA anymore and to retransform it back when he want. Maybe this so high dosage of 13-cis-RA broked this system and maked all-trans-RA out of control.. idk...

I'm considering myself almost cured of all the effects of accutane but i find really annoying to not know precisely how it worked, i'm still searching...

Just remembered something, for those who got hair loss, it can be fixed with castor oil for some people. Castor oil can help detoxification of any part of the body, you can put it anywhere to help to reduce pain or symptoms.

Edited by anonyy, 31 May 2014 - 09:14 AM.


#3962 acne1776

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:45 PM

TaneAbomination congratulations on being recovered that is very exciting to hear. Did you have any cognitive issues resolved by the oil?

 

I would just like to point out to anyone who hasn't been following this thread closely that we now have TWO people claiming Rick Simpson Cannabis Oil has helped them significantly. Very promising stuff.



#3963 Dubya_B

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:44 AM

i dont remember man i was like 15 or 16 im 30 now. i vaguely remember either cutting up a pill or taking 1 for a while then uping to 2 a day.did this for 4 to 6 months. i saw the same derm years back and he said i took a fairly low dose but he didnt quote exact dosage. i thought of calling from time to time but i dont know if theyd still have it on record at this point.  i didnt have cystic acne of course, just what he called   stubborn after trying other things. no thanks to my parents who thought my acne was a bigger deal then i did at the time. and always made me go to the dr.   so we get this accutane pamphlet and me and my mom are both like wow my acnes nothing like this. read the thing about not taking vitamin a, and asked doc about this. you know what he said? that i still remember. " well if you take vitamin a with accutane  you might be able to see in the dark"      Wtf.

Many medical professionals are shameless salespeople for pharmaceutical companies, and terrible ones at that. That's the only thing that can rationally explain where some some of the se wacky claims are coming from. There is a list/lists available outlining the amounts certain doctors and medical centers get handed by pharma companies, and that's not counting other perks. I'm sort of in the same situation as you. Been going through the same thing for over ten years with only a few small glimpses of a possible cryptic medical condition and no way out of the Hell.

 

There was a recent poster on one of the general medical advice boards who's derm supposedly likened her becoming ill from Accutane to "Developing major health problems from eating M&Ms, how silly!" WTF? One of the handful of things I remember from the time it all went down was my doctor admitting this was used as a chemo drug and saying something along the lines of "if you take Accutane, you will probably be less likely to get cancer".

 

Nick, sorry I missed your earlier post. Things tend to get lost fast in this long thread.

Word has it there were many others looking into epigenetic roots to our problems on the old ragforum, and the idea sort of lost its fire when the forum went down.

Max, the one who made the "Roaccutane Science" forum was seriously considering this as early as 2005.

http://max001.proboards.com/index.cgi (look at the earlier posts before the site became the best place to find deals on discount wedding dresses,pff)

 

Also, some of the the Post Finasteride Syndrome research being done at Harvard and Baylor medical schools is looking into probable epigenetic mechanisms to explain the condition. As you know, many of us share identical symptoms as those who were seemingly permanently damaged by Propecia/finasteride.

 

Every so often someone comes out claiming to be cured. This has been said of all sorts of various unrelated things, but when other try to mimic the treatment, it usually doesn't work at all.

I'm trying to say most of us will go to our graves doing liver flushes, detoxes, and messing with hormones unless we change the way we are going about trying to find a treatment or cure.

 

It's time for me to go to work, but I will answer some of your questions as best I can this evening.


Do your part to raise awareness:

Report side effects:

Rxisk
https://www.rxisk.or...ects/About.aspx
FDA
https://www.accessda...umer.reporting1
NHS
http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/
Roche
http://www.roche.co....k/xxxcontactxxx
 

 

If you believe you suffer from the condition known as PFS as a result of Accutane, please donate to the PFS Foundation:

http://www.pfsfoundation.org/

 

 


#3964 Nick Ryan

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:57 AM

i dont remember man i was like 15 or 16 im 30 now. i vaguely remember either cutting up a pill or taking 1 for a while then uping to 2 a day.did this for 4 to 6 months. i saw the same derm years back and he said i took a fairly low dose but he didnt quote exact dosage. i thought of calling from time to time but i dont know if theyd still have it on record at this point.  i didnt have cystic acne of course, just what he called   stubborn after trying other things. no thanks to my parents who thought my acne was a bigger deal then i did at the time. and always made me go to the dr.   so we get this accutane pamphlet and me and my mom are both like wow my acnes nothing like this. read the thing about not taking vitamin a, and asked doc about this. you know what he said? that i still remember. " well if you take vitamin a with accutane  you might be able to see in the dark"      Wtf.

Many medical professionals are shameless salespeople for pharmaceutical companies, and terrible ones at that. That's the only thing that can rationally explain where some some of the se wacky claims are coming from. There is a list/lists available outlining the amounts certain doctors and medical centers get handed by pharma companies, and that's not counting other perks. I'm sort of in the same situation as you. Been going through the same thing for over ten years with only a few small glimpses of a possible cryptic medical condition and no way out of the Hell.

 

There was a recent poster on one of the general medical advice boards who's derm supposedly likened her becoming ill from Accutane to "Developing major health problems from eating M&Ms, how silly!" WTF? One of the handful of things I remember from the time it all went down was my doctor admitting this was used as a chemo drug and saying something along the lines of "if you take Accutane, you will probably be less likely to get cancer".

 

Nick, sorry I missed your earlier post. Things tend to get lost fast in this long thread.

Word has it there were many others looking into epigenetic roots to our problems on the old ragforum, and the idea sort of lost its fire when the forum went down.

Max, the one who made the "Roaccutane Science" forum was seriously considering this as early as 2005.

http://max001.proboards.com/index.cgi (look at the earlier posts before the site became the best place to find deals on discount wedding dresses,pff)

 

Also, some of the the Post Finasteride Syndrome research being done at Harvard and Baylor medical schools is looking into probable epigenetic mechanisms to explain the condition. As you know, many of us share identical symptoms as those who were seemingly permanently damaged by Propecia/finasteride.

 

Every so often someone comes out claiming to be cured. This has been said of all sorts of various unrelated things, but when other try to mimic the treatment, it usually doesn't work at all.

I'm trying to say most of us will go to our graves doing liver flushes, detoxes, and messing with hormones unless we change the way we are going about trying to find a treatment or cure.

 

It's time for me to go to work, but I will answer some of your questions as best I can this evening.

 

Ah, I figured that's what happened.

 

And I echo your sentiments; I believe we will not get different results until we stop doing the same things. That being said, diet alone really does do a lot, but it is not a cure. Hearing that people have been considering the epigenetic angle for nearly a decade now both makes me hopeful and a little disconcerted- hopefully we're only ever moving closer to a cure.

 

I'll keep my eyes peeled for your response.


What has worked for me in order of safety/effectiveness: Eating small portions of food (no more than 2 fistfuls at any given sitting) *and/or* Low calorie/low fat/low-to-no grain diet while minimizing all dehydrating substances.

What helps: Methyl-B12, Exercise+Water and a Humidifier in your room.

What hasn't: Everything else (so far).

What makes it worse: Multivitamins** for whatever reason. If you need to take supplements, get the single supplement as needed- multivitamins can make your symptoms worse. Do your research on each vitamin! Eating large meals, and eating highly processed/fatty foods.


#3965 anonyy

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:00 PM

Every so often someone comes out claiming to be cured. This has been said of all sorts of various unrelated things, but when other try to mimic the treatment, it usually doesn't work at all.

I'm trying to say most of us will go to our graves doing liver flushes, detoxes, and messing with hormones unless we change the way we are going about trying to find a treatment or cure.


That's because you didn't really tried the "treatment" that it doesn't work. Did you tried to stop all kind of nocive food i posted page 198 for more than 3 month without giving up after 1 week? did you cleansed your intestine, bile/liver & your kidneys with liver flush or psyllium + bitter plants & kidney tea/plants (here too, without giving up after 1 week)? have you done the isotherapy? took kombucha & artichoke? took plenty of veggies, agrumes, herbs, roots, etc.. juices?

I'm sure that you didn't even done 10% of what is needed to be done to help your body to get better. You prefer to use the same excuse that everyone use when they don't know why something is happening ("its genetic!"). What are you waiting for ? an other poisonous drug to fix you? like that you will be able to continue to give your body non-adapted conditions & no helping conditions for a true regeneration? sorry but it will never happen. You can't fix an excess of retinoic acid & a destroyed digestive system with an other medic without changing anything about your lifestyle.

People here are searching a solution with the same mindset that cause the poisoning in the same place, with an other drug, an other magic pill. It will never work.


Edited by anonyy, 22 November 2013 - 12:08 PM.


#3966 Dubya_B

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:22 PM

Every so often someone comes out claiming to be cured. This has been said of all sorts of various unrelated things, but when other try to mimic the treatment, it usually doesn't work at all.

I'm trying to say most of us will go to our graves doing liver flushes, detoxes, and messing with hormones unless we change the way we are going about trying to find a treatment or cure.


That's because you didn't really tried the "treatment" that it doesn't work. Did you tried to stop all kind of nocive food i posted page 198 for more than 3 month without giving up after 1 week? did you cleansed your intestine, bile/liver & your kidneys with liver flush or psyllium + bitter plants & kidney tea/plants (here too, without giving up after 1 week)? have you done the isotherapy? took kombucha & artichoke? took plenty of veggies, agrumes, herbs, roots, etc.. juices?

I'm sure that you didn't even done 10% of what is needed to be done to help your body to get better. You prefer to use the same excuse that everyone use when they don't know why something is happening ("its genetic!"). What are you waiting for ? an other poisonous drug to fix you? like that you will be able to continue to give your body non-adapted conditions & no helping conditions for a true regeneration? sorry but it will never happen. You can't fix an excess of retinoic acid & a destroyed digestive system with an other medic without changing anything about your lifestyle.

People here are searching a solution with the same mindset that cause the poisoning in the same place, with an other drug, an other magic pill. It will never work.

No. I didn't cleanse my liver, intestines, or kidneys, or take psyllium. I have absolutely ZERO symptoms of any sort of bowel/digestive problem and ZERO signs of kidney damage that would warrant any sort of cleansing/detox. I had maybe two occurrences of rectal bleeding during my first course, but that was it. No diarrhea, cramps, weird colored stool, or stomach or bowel pains. My symptoms are of a mental and sexual nature.

 

Yes, the always-poisonous manufactured pharmaceutical products are currently giving some of us symptom relief, even if they are not a cure. 

Not every drug is at Accutane's level of dangerous. It's up there with thalidomide after all.

 

You say people are here searching for solutions with the same mindset that caused our problems, yet you recommend something like isotherapy, which if I understand correctly, would involve paying someone to inject either diluted Accutane, or diluted "Accutane affected tissue" into the bloodstream?

No, I don't feel like "cleansing my wallet" with a known scam.

 

Around 4 years ago I stopped eating junk food and processed foods, and began eating plenty of fresh fruits, green vegetables, meats, nuts, and rice or fried potatoes for carbs. Olive oil was used for most of the cooking. I stuck pretty closely to that diet for 3 years. You know what happened? NOTHING!

If anything, I actually felt a little worse after those 3 years. I am now back to eating a few cookies, candies, or chips a few nights a week and eating pizza or fast food a couple nights a week. You know what happened? I feel EXACTLY THE SAME! I am still eating much healthier than I was throughout my 20's, but no, I have no plans to go on a strict, specific, and arbitrary diet, when making long term and fairly strict changes in my diet didn't help me the slightest in the past.

 

You seem to keep badgering me personally and exclusively with the same 2 claims repeatedly, while failing to back them up with anything besides your own personal experience, seemingly because you just plain don't like what I have to say. I'm over it.


Edited by Dubya_B, 22 November 2013 - 08:39 PM.

Do your part to raise awareness:

Report side effects:

Rxisk
https://www.rxisk.or...ects/About.aspx
FDA
https://www.accessda...umer.reporting1
NHS
http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/
Roche
http://www.roche.co....k/xxxcontactxxx
 

 

If you believe you suffer from the condition known as PFS as a result of Accutane, please donate to the PFS Foundation:

http://www.pfsfoundation.org/

 

 


#3967 anonyy

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:36 PM

It is not about damage, it's about stimuling & cleansing it to help elimination.
You ate meat & rice, you can't say you tried the "cure", it's all about eliminating meat & grains, sodas, etc.. and even that is not enough, you need to cleanse your lymph, kidney, intestine & liver, you have done nothing of this "cure" actually...
Isotherapy isn't a scam at all, i can even say that i never saw something that powerful as a "medicine".

I'm "badgering" you personally cause you non-stop telling lies & negative things, it's really annoying. You say those cure doesn't work & are scam without even tried them, it's really sad. What the point? you want to convince yourself that you have nothing to do about it? if so, keep it for yourself and stop trying to impose your negative vision, and stop telling that things are scam without even knowing them.


Edited by anonyy, 23 October 2014 - 03:43 AM.


#3968 Dubya_B

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:46 AM

Ah, I figured that's what happened.

 

And I echo your sentiments; I believe we will not get different results until we stop doing the same things. That being said, diet alone really does do a lot, but it is not a cure. Hearing that people have been considering the epigenetic angle for nearly a decade now both makes me hopeful and a little disconcerted- hopefully we're only ever moving closer to a cure.

 

I'll keep my eyes peeled for your response.

My sentiments exactly. It sucks knowing many of Accutane's side effects may be rooted in rather new discoveries about how biology works. There are so many reasons to be negative about it, and at the same time we are lucky that this area of biology is exploding in recent times.

There are ventures into discovering the epigenetic components of autoimmune disease, fungal infection, personality traits, aging, drug interactions, and of course cancer, going on at the moment. Diet, exercise, and even some traditional medicines, are being considered by some to be very influential on epigenetic mechanisms.

It's sort of a lame example of how profoundly important this branch of science may be, but jellyfish have been found to maintain youth via going through demethylation to "lose" some of the epigenetic tags that cause them to age. They can age backwards.

 

As far a a treatment or cure goes, probably no one can give a decent answer right now.

You mentioned using certain substances that effect methyltransferase and histone deacetylase enzymes potentially causing problems. You are probably right to some extent. These drugs seem to often cause diarrhea, nausea, and bowel irritation. These are the only side effects I can think of off the top of my head, but there are surely others.

 

As far as causing cancer goes, a very high percentage of the newer cancer medications inhibit the methyltransferase or HDAC enzymes, causing the removal or loss of methyl tags that shut down or repress DNA repair genes and tumor supressor genes in many types of cancer.

 

On a side-note, I think most cancer cells actually over-express telomerase and cyclin proteins at some point, which grants them immortality and fast growth! We know if anything, Accutane has the opposite effect on these proteins, which is interesting. Nathan Carr had written a long paper concerning Accutane's supression of telomerase in fast-growing cells being a possible candidate for explaining its side effects (advanced aging). It's understandable what he was getting at, but it's hard for me to understand how just a handful of pills had such a great effect on some sufferers, or how some of the side effects are not necessarily signs of rapid aging, or even explain the wide variation in side effects. Personally, I believe the active antagonism on the effects of certain steroids and other growth factors that Accutane has been shown to cause explains the decrease in telomerase, as inhibiting these growth-promoting pathways has been shown to inhibit production of the enzyme. I really hope I'm right about this one since AFAIK, a human can't get additional telomeres to grow back onto their chromosomes once they are lost.

 

Back to mehtyltransferase and HDAC inhibitors. There's something like 40 known enzymes with methyltransferase activity and I think there's 20 or so HDAC enzymes. There are also different histone acetyltransferase (HAT) enzymes that work to open-up genes for transcription, but I'm not sure many methods to influence these HAT enzymes are being developed.

Ideally, you would want to know which genes have been persistently "slowed down" or silenced, which of the HMTs or HDACS act on the histone for that gene/s, and what drugs, substances, or other methods can be used to influence those particular histone-modifying enzymes to restore the pre-Accutane transcription rates.

 

Trying to do this on our own would be taking a shot in the dark.

Some methods target many of the different classes of these histone modifying enzymes, and some have a very specific range.

The narrower the range, the less likely to hit the target, but one would think there should be less "collateral damage" if something goes wrong.

Save the Accutane analogies!

 

I'll finish this explanation up tomorrow. Just take it all with a grain of salt since I have no background in biology or chemistry, and look into it a little deeper to make your own assumptions.


Do your part to raise awareness:

Report side effects:

Rxisk
https://www.rxisk.or...ects/About.aspx
FDA
https://www.accessda...umer.reporting1
NHS
http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/
Roche
http://www.roche.co....k/xxxcontactxxx
 

 

If you believe you suffer from the condition known as PFS as a result of Accutane, please donate to the PFS Foundation:

http://www.pfsfoundation.org/

 

 


#3969 ChampionBlood

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 05:14 AM


Ah, I figured that's what happened.
 
And I echo your sentiments; I believe we will not get different results until we stop doing the same things. That being said, diet alone really does do a lot, but it is not a cure. Hearing that people have been considering the epigenetic angle for nearly a decade now both makes me hopeful and a little disconcerted- hopefully we're only ever moving closer to a cure.
 
I'll keep my eyes peeled for your response.

My sentiments exactly. It sucks knowing many of Accutane's side effects may be rooted in rather new discoveries about how biology works. There are so many reasons to be negative about it, and at the same time we are lucky that this area of biology is exploding in recent times.
There are ventures into discovering the epigenetic components of autoimmune disease, fungal infection, personality traits, aging, drug interactions, and of course cancer, going on at the moment. Diet, exercise, and even some traditional medicines, are being considered by some to be very influential on epigenetic mechanisms.
It's sort of a lame example of how profoundly important this branch of science may be, but jellyfish have been found to maintain youth via going through demethylation to "lose" some of the epigenetic tags that cause them to age. They can age backwards.
 
As far a a treatment or cure goes, probably no one can give a decent answer right now.
You mentioned using certain substances that effect methyltransferase and histone deacetylase enzymes potentially causing problems. You are probably right to some extent. These drugs seem to often cause diarrhea, nausea, and bowel irritation. These are the only side effects I can think of off the top of my head, but there are surely others.
 
As far as causing cancer goes, a very high percentage of the newer cancer medications inhibit the methyltransferase or HDAC enzymes, causing the removal or loss of methyl tags that shut down or repress DNA repair genes and tumor supressor genes in many types of cancer.
 
On a side-note, I think most cancer cells actually over-express telomerase and cyclin proteins at some point, which grants them immortality and fast growth! We know if anything, Accutane has the opposite effect on these proteins, which is interesting. Nathan Carr had written a long paper concerning Accutane's supression of telomerase in fast-growing cells being a possible candidate for explaining its side effects (advanced aging). It's understandable what he was getting at, but it's hard for me to understand how just a handful of pills had such a great effect on some sufferers, or how some of the side effects are not necessarily signs of rapid aging, or even explain the wide variation in side effects. Personally, I believe the active antagonism on the effects of certain steroids and other growth factors that Accutane has been shown to cause explains the decrease in telomerase, as inhibiting these growth-promoting pathways has been shown to inhibit production of the enzyme. I really hope I'm right about this one since AFAIK, a human can't get additional telomeres to grow back onto their chromosomes once they are lost.
 
Back to mehtyltransferase and HDAC inhibitors. There's something like 40 known enzymes with methyltransferase activity and I think there's 20 or so HDAC enzymes. There are also different histone acetyltransferase (HAT) enzymes that work to open-up genes for transcription, but I'm not sure many methods to influence these HAT enzymes are being developed.
Ideally, you would want to know which genes have been persistently "slowed down" or silenced, which of the HMTs or HDACS act on the histone for that gene/s, and what drugs, substances, or other methods can be used to influence those particular histone-modifying enzymes to restore the pre-Accutane transcription rates.
 
Trying to do this on our own would be taking a shot in the dark.
Some methods target many of the different classes of these histone modifying enzymes, and some have a very specific range.
The narrower the range, the less likely to hit the target, but one would think there should be less "collateral damage" if something goes wrong.
Save the Accutane analogies!
 
I'll finish this explanation up tomorrow. Just take it all with a grain of salt since I have no background in biology or chemistry, and look into it a little deeper to make your own assumptions.
Well, this just shows the complexity of the issue. Dubya, you're making a valiant effort to try to understand the science behind this, but I can't help thinking that we really need someone with an expert understanding of genetics to critique these theories. What you're doing amounts to the same thing that Nathan Carr did in his paper, which is to stitch together many scientific papers to make an argument that sounds convincing (at best) to a layperson.

The epigenetic effects and pharmacological effects behind accutane are so complex already that it takes an expert to speculate at the method of action. Undoing these complex effects, even if we fully understand the method of action, which nobody does, is MUCH more difficult a task. It might be impossible. Chemical reactions can't be undone in the same way in which they were originally done.

In this way I sympathize with anonyy, although not for the reasons which he espouses. This line of inquiry (epigenetics) is, in my mind, officially dead until we can get some experts to weigh in on the matter.

Edited by ChampionBlood, 23 November 2013 - 05:15 AM.


#3970 anonyy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:10 PM

"Official" medecine almost always treat the symptoms but not the real cause of diseases. They think upside-down. They do the exact same thing with epigenetic, telomerase, etc.. it is known that telomerase is not a cause, but a consequence of an inflammatory stress among other things. People should really stop believing those lies and other things that want you to feel powerless and in the need of an other miracle drug who will just mask the symptoms. This is how this official psychopathic medicine scam work to make money. The body need nothing else than proper condition to be functional again, and some help in the case of such high poisoning who lasted 6 month.



#3971 oli girl

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:35 PM

I don't have much time, and will answer a fee things here soon, but too annoy- I would luv not to have to take thyroid or insulin daily, however if I don't I will die! Though I have a extremely clean diet And did before accutane no diet will cure me!
The secret of health for both mind & body
is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
The Buddha

#3972 anonyy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:58 PM

No sad diet will cure you, for sure. It is not because you believe that you have a good diet that it truely is. That's the main problem here i think.



#3973 Sergiorezende

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 02:50 PM

Oli girl , What you think is a healthy diet? . Diet won't cure the body, the body heal itself. There is no such thing as " cure " the body itself is the cure , when you remove the toxins that are causing the symptoms and clean your body from toxic waste and excess mucous , it will start to heal itself .

 

First and most important thing, " do no harm ".  I believe there are foods that make this detoxification process easier for the body such as organic fruits and veggies, it's important to eliminate everything that is doing harm to the body, such as meat, dairy, cooked dead foods, processed foods ,gmos, heavy metals, tap water and chemicals of all kind, otherwise the body won't heal .

 

There is nothing better to detox the body than water fasting and after that to follow a raw vegan diet.  Please watch this video

 



#3974 oli girl

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 04:00 PM


Ah, I figured that's what happened.
 
And I echo your sentiments; I believe we will not get different results until we stop doing the same things. That being said, diet alone really does do a lot, but it is not a cure. Hearing that people have been considering the epigenetic angle for nearly a decade now both makes me hopeful and a little disconcerted- hopefully we're only ever moving closer to a cure.
 
I'll keep my eyes peeled for your response.

My sentiments exactly. It sucks knowing many of Accutane's side effects may be rooted in rather new discoveries about how biology works. There are so many reasons to be negative about it, and at the same time we are lucky that this area of biology is exploding in recent times.
There are ventures into discovering the epigenetic components of autoimmune disease, fungal infection, personality traits, aging, drug interactions, and of course cancer, going on at the moment. Diet, exercise, and even some traditional medicines, are being considered by some to be very influential on epigenetic mechanisms.
It's sort of a lame example of how profoundly important this branch of science may be, but jellyfish have been found to maintain youth via going through demethylation to "lose" some of the epigenetic tags that cause them to age. They can age backwards.
 
As far a a treatment or cure goes, probably no one can give a decent answer right now.
You mentioned using certain substances that effect methyltransferase and histone deacetylase enzymes potentially causing problems. You are probably right to some extent. These drugs seem to often cause diarrhea, nausea, and bowel irritation. These are the only side effects I can think of off the top of my head, but there are surely others.
 
As far as causing cancer goes, a very high percentage of the newer cancer medications inhibit the methyltransferase or HDAC enzymes, causing the removal or loss of methyl tags that shut down or repress DNA repair genes and tumor supressor genes in many types of cancer.
 
On a side-note, I think most cancer cells actually over-express telomerase and cyclin proteins at some point, which grants them immortality and fast growth! We know if anything, Accutane has the opposite effect on these proteins, which is interesting. Nathan Carr had written a long paper concerning Accutane's supression of telomerase in fast-growing cells being a possible candidate for explaining its side effects (advanced aging). It's understandable what he was getting at, but it's hard for me to understand how just a handful of pills had such a great effect on some sufferers, or how some of the side effects are not necessarily signs of rapid aging, or even explain the wide variation in side effects. Personally, I believe the active antagonism on the effects of certain steroids and other growth factors that Accutane has been shown to cause explains the decrease in telomerase, as inhibiting these growth-promoting pathways has been shown to inhibit production of the enzyme. I really hope I'm right about this one since AFAIK, a human can't get additional telomeres to grow back onto their chromosomes once they are lost.
 
Back to mehtyltransferase and HDAC inhibitors. There's something like 40 known enzymes with methyltransferase activity and I think there's 20 or so HDAC enzymes. There are also different histone acetyltransferase (HAT) enzymes that work to open-up genes for transcription, but I'm not sure many methods to influence these HAT enzymes are being developed.
Ideally, you would want to know which genes have been persistently "slowed down" or silenced, which of the HMTs or HDACS act on the histone for that gene/s, and what drugs, substances, or other methods can be used to influence those particular histone-modifying enzymes to restore the pre-Accutane transcription rates.
 
Trying to do this on our own would be taking a shot in the dark.
Some methods target many of the different classes of these histone modifying enzymes, and some have a very specific range.
The narrower the range, the less likely to hit the target, but one would think there should be less "collateral damage" if something goes wrong.
Save the Accutane analogies!
 
I'll finish this explanation up tomorrow. Just take it all with a grain of salt since I have no background in biology or chemistry, and look into it a little deeper to make your own assumptions.
Well, this just shows the complexity of the issue. Dubya, you're making a valiant effort to try to understand the science behind this, but I can't help thinking that we really need someone with an expert understanding of genetics to critique these theories. What you're doing amounts to the same thing that Nathan Carr did in his paper, which is to stitch together many scientific papers to make an argument that sounds convincing (at best) to a layperson.
The epigenetic effects and pharmacological effects behind accutane are so complex already that it takes an expert to speculate at the method of action. Undoing these complex effects, even if we fully understand the method of action, which nobody does, is MUCH more difficult a task. It might be impossible. Chemical reactions can't be undone in the same way in which they were originally done.
In this way I sympathize with anonyy, although not for the reasons which he espouses. This line of inquiry (epigenetics) is, in my mind, officially dead until we can get some experts to weigh in on the matter.


Nathan actually had his paper published in a pharmacology book that is sold nationally! So he does have some merit!
The secret of health for both mind & body
is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
The Buddha

#3975 Gladiatoro

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 05:11 PM

I don't have much time, and will answer a fee things here soon, but too annoy- I would luv not to have to take thyroid or insulin daily, however if I don't I will die! Though I have a extremely clean diet And did before accutane no diet will cure me!

I recently got tested for diabetes , I'm always quite thirsty hmmm..... wonder why yes I am being sarcastic anyways I got tested for that and my thyroid and both are fine so I am lucky , no doubt if you take enough Accutane it can do some very serious damage , check out my link

oli girl .  (=

 

http://www.naturalne..._treatment.html


Edited by Gladiatoro, 23 November 2013 - 05:13 PM.


#3976 anonyy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 06:46 PM

Diabete is all about surrenals weakness, global congestion of the organism and tissue acidity. Insulin action is lowered when tissues are too acids (ofc caused by a bad diet & toxicity). Insulin role is to activate the process of transportation of sugar from blood to cells. When the body, and specialy the interstitial fluid are fully congestioned by toxins & acids, insulin is unable to reach our cells insulin receptors. It will force the pancreas to product more and more insulin. Thats for insulin resistance.
 
Second/connected cause --when said "auto immune"-- (who can touch any part of the body, lungs, thyroid, pancreas, etc..) is when the interstitial fluid is so so congestioned by toxins & acids, that our cells are not able to eliminate their own natural waste, our immune system will not recognize those cells as "normal", consider them as unknown/invaders and kill them. It can be caused by heavy metals too, that can be the case for children, if the heavy metals are absorbed by some organs, in any part of the body, the immune system will kill those "corrupted" cells.

And of course the most common cause is to eat too much refined sugars & complex carbohydrates (grains, etc..), with a lack of sleep, too much stress and all of that while having an already exhausted organism. 

All this toxicity or this too high bad sugar intake will with time exhaust the pancreas (or other glands), who will by chain reaction exhaust the entire autonomous nervous system, affect others glands, surrenals, thyroid, etc.. Affected surrenals will affect cortisol level and cause hyper & hypo glycemia, will affect too: insulin, pancreas, thyroid, libido, etc.., etc.. even the brain & whole nervous system (surrenals synthetise adrenaline & noradrenaline) are affected by the surrenals. 

Toxicity that directly or undirectly affect surrenals can be a cause of sugar metabolism problems too, by affecting those cortisol & insulin levels. 
When surrenals are tired, autonomous nervous system get tired, which greatly affect the capacity to product insulin. When surrenals are tired, kidney filtering is reduced, who will raise toxicity & acidity. And toxicity will exhaust surrenals.

All of this is an infamous vicious circle.
 
You have to stop to poison your body with a really bad diet (grains, dairy, animal products), help him to detoxify itself and stop taking useless drug who only try to correct/mask symptoms (who are essential for the body to survive for some of them). Fructose in whole fruits is good cause it doesn't need insulin to be absorbed (studies about fructose are 100% wrong, they didn't used real fructose non-processed from fruits). It seems with testimony that stopping fatty foods is very very helpful for people with insulin/glycemic problems. Worst poisonous form of sugar are complex carbohydrates (grains, etc..) who raise very dangerous level of blood sugars and refined one (foods, drinks, chocolate, etc..).

Edited by anonyy, 23 November 2013 - 08:50 PM.


#3977 oli girl

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 09:51 PM

Okay, I have had enough this diabetic is cranky now! It is very obvious that 1 a few of you didn't read my post correctly so I will lay it out for you loud and clear the best I can and If you still don't get it then so be it!

 

1. I don't see any where I disagreed with diet as I even stated I have a very good diet and did so before Accutane! To assume that I don't and to assume that I  eat sugar, carbs etc.... that's what caused my diabetes is absurd. It is very apparent you are not educated on Type 1 Diabetes which is not surprising since type 2 is such a epidemic and is 90% related to diet. However, Accutane killed my pancreas and no diet is going to heal my pancreas and magically regenerate islet and beta cells! In other words my Diabetes is NOT related to poor diet and  my pancreas wasn't over stressed over a long period of time due to poor diet! My problems didn't come years or months after Accutane. My problems didn't start out slow and progress.

 

2. My response to having to take thyroid meds and insulin (for life) was in response to Annoy making this statement - "People here are searching a solution with the same mindset that cause the poisoning in the same place, with an other drug, an other magic pill. It will never work." - Basically I was trying to advise Annoy that some people in the Accutane community have no choice but to take drugs....Once Again part of thyroid is gone due to Grave's disease while taking Accutane, Insulin due to Type 1 diabetes. If I don't take these then I either go in cardiac arrest, coma or 2 days without insulin DEATH!

 

3. Sergiorezende - Thank You for your post, I am already aware of a lot of things you mentioned not to ingest, in which I did before Accutane too, however fruit is horrible organic or not for diabetic it is still fructose! I eat a very clean/organic diet, which hardly any carbs. As for water or any fasting that becomes a issue for us Type 1 diabetics. Why 1 might ask???? B/C two things happen 1 our blood sugars still rise even with out food, due to the liver outputs sugar and we don't produce insulin to counteract this process so we have to take insulin and then risk possibly suffering a low. In which is a roller coaster in itself for a type 1 diabetic.

 

4. I have been around the Accutane Community for a long time, have meet and spoke with many influential people who were heavily involved regarding Accutane from many years ago. I have read stories and spoke to people who have gone to many lengths and/or spent a lot of money to heal themselves with some success or no success. People need to remember we are made up of different DNA, we need to remember and respect that certain things work for some, but doesn't mean that it works for someone else. We need to remember one may suffer from something that another does not.  We need to remember that we are all here to help each other and respect each other we are all brought together by the same reason poison by Accutane!

 

5. If you ever read my full story which the link has been posted on here, and if you read my 5yr update then you will know I am doing actually pretty good considering I have life long diseases from Accutane. My only hope is this to heal my body completely!  http://www.cnn.com/2...abetescell1130a

 

Basically, For Me I believe Accutane Altered my DNA no genetics here in my diagnosis of autoimmune disorders!

 

Dubya - I haven't forgotten your question. I know I have some things on Sjrogren's and Accutane just have to find the time to look for it, Which I will soon :)


Edited by oli girl, 23 November 2013 - 09:53 PM.

The secret of health for both mind & body
is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
The Buddha

#3978 MovingOn

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:41 PM

Well said Oligirl!! wooooot!!!



#3979 anonyy

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:31 AM

My post wasn't for you personally, at least i tried to make something who can help everyone, that's why i enumered all different cause of diabete (type 1 & 2) & more. Diet is among one of them, and a big part of the solution for all of them.
Pancreas beta cell & thyroid can be regenerated, it has been seen many times.

I didn't knew that your disease was so advanced, i'm sorry. Of course in that case you should not stop those artificial drug who maintain you alive. But to get to that advanced point, there is certainly something more than accutane.

Fructose is not a problem at all for diabetic, it's the best form of sugar in that particular case.
I'm not sure that you know what a good diet is, your telling that you eat healty but from the little you told about it, it's a very bad diet.

All of your symptoms are caused by the same thing, toxicity & acidity, or at least preventing the healing after accutane, since it's the same thing that caused acne. Believe what you want, i'm just trying to help with the informations & testimony i know. It's your life, i don't really care if you doesn't want to believe them, just trying to help or give a potential lead to anyone who get here. If there is negative people who prefer to think everything is genetic, that there is nothing to do and that toxicity and acidity cannot affect the body and cause a lot of different disease it's their choice, it's just sad for them. I will always defend the truth, maybe it will help someone who really need/want it, apparently not so much here x)


Edited by anonyy, 24 November 2013 - 01:49 AM.


#3980 Ballen

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:08 AM

Oli girl , What you think is a healthy diet? . Diet won't cure the body, the body heal itself. There is no such thing as " cure " the body itself is the cure , when you remove the toxins that are causing the symptoms and clean your body from toxic waste and excess mucous , it will start to heal itself .

 

First and most important thing, " do no harm ".  I believe there are foods that make this detoxification process easier for the body such as organic fruits and veggies, it's important to eliminate everything that is doing harm to the body, such as meat, dairy, cooked dead foods, processed foods ,gmos, heavy metals, tap water and chemicals of all kind, otherwise the body won't heal .

 

There is nothing better to detox the body than water fasting and after that to follow a raw vegan diet.  Please watch this video

 

Didn't watch, but in short: A healthy diet is a diet in which you:

- Get all your daily vitamins (not multivitamin, from whole foods).

- Get all your daily minerals.

- Get enough full amino acid profile protein.

- Get enough of each fat.

- (Not necessary, but) eat the same amount of each carbohydrate.

- Meet your daily calorie expenditure.

- Drink enough water.


The rest doesn't really matter.


Edited by Ballen, 24 November 2013 - 10:09 AM.

Dreams do come true.





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