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Repairing the long-term damage from Accutane

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#3421 Mahweeoh

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:01 PM

This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest. 



#3422 and1

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:41 AM

This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest. 

 

I disagree, I have made great progress the past two months thanks to this thread. At least one other person is progressing too.

 

Ever thought about certain folks having an interest to close down this thread???

 

Also I don't really know what you are doing on this thread, it appears that you actually can't wait to get on accutane:

 

http://www.acne.org/...sian-countries/


Edited by Undergroundwellness, 21 July 2013 - 02:11 AM.


#3423 Mahweeoh

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:18 AM

This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest. 

 

I disagree, I have made great progress the past two months thanks to this thread. At least one other person is progressing too.

 

Ever thought about certain folks having an interest to close down this thread???

 

Also I don't really know what you are doing on this thread, it appears that you actually can't wait to get on accutane:

 

http://www.acne.org/...sian-countries/

I'm glad you're progressing, but I'm on this thread to learn both sides. Some of the posts just seem to ramble and shoot random comments. Other people who haven't been on Accutane have come to learn from this thread as well. I've been studying Accutane for a while now and this site has ( more or less ) been very useful to see the positives and negatives of it. I've held off on Accutane for a while in an attempt to try to find the "root" cause, but I have wasted so much time doing so and doctors are quite slow. I've been at this for a long time.  I'm asking questions, but still waiting and hesitating to take something like this if there's an option to fix myself. 



#3424 and1

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:27 AM

 

This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest. 

 

I disagree, I have made great progress the past two months thanks to this thread. At least one other person is progressing too.

 

Ever thought about certain folks having an interest to close down this thread???

 

Also I don't really know what you are doing on this thread, it appears that you actually can't wait to get on accutane:

 

http://www.acne.org/...sian-countries/

I'm glad you're progressing, but I'm on this thread to learn both sides. Some of the posts just seem to ramble and shoot random comments. Other people who haven't been on Accutane have come to learn from this thread as well. I've been studying Accutane for a while now and this site has ( more or less ) been very useful to see the positives and negatives of it. I've held off on Accutane for a while in an attempt to try to find the "root" cause, but I have wasted so much time doing so and doctors are quite slow. I've been at this for a long time.  I'm asking questions, but still waiting and hesitating to take something like this if there's an option to fix myself. 

 

Get off gluten (better even all overly starchy foods), sugars. Reduce inflammation in your body and boost your body's ability to recover and heal itself. Increasing the speed at which wound healing occurs takes you a long way. The root cause will be some combination of hormone and immune system imbalance due to genetics, environmental polutants such as heavy metals and pesticides, eating the wrong foods etc. 



#3425 JosephBuchignani

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 03:26 AM

You could do all that Mahweoh, or you could just take Blue Ice, which gives the same effect as Accutane - vit A skin clearing - without the chemotherapy sides. 

 

If that isn't useful information, I don't know what is.



#3426 JosephBuchignani

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:01 AM

Hi guys, 
 
I have some potentially very exciting news on a new angle - vitamin K2, low sedimentation rate, dehydration, chronic fatigue syndrome, and athletic overtraining. 
 
Sound interesting? Read on...
 
You can test my theory two ways: 
1. Get a comprehensive blood panel and check whether your sedimentation rate is very low, e.g. 0-4. 
2. Try a high K2 supplement such as nattokinase or Blue Ice. 
3. Do you feel dizzy when standing up, or have difficulty standing for normal periods of time?
 
---
 
I finally had my comprehensive test results from 10/2012 scanned and sent to me. Today I went through them with a fine toothed comb. 
 
The only markers that stood out initially were high BUN, stool PH and TSH. However: 
1. high BUN and stool PH are explained by my high protein, low carb, low fiber diet
2. I did not respond to traditional or alternative hypothyroid therapy, and TSH can show idiosyncratic variation. 
 
I went through the whole battery of tests and came up blank. Apparently healthy as a horse. Then an odd memory popped - I remember my doctor saying exactly that. He congratulated me on my very low inflammation markers, saying I had the "lowest sedimentation rate he'd ever seen!"
 
At the time I took that as confirmation of the brilliance of my anti-inflammatory diet, and proceeded to tell everyone so. But what if my ego caused me to overlook the critical disease marker? 
 
So I googled it. In the first page of results, I discovered that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome sufferers ALSO have super-low sedimentation rates! Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. 
 
Low sedimentation rate is NORMALLY a positive indicator. But it's also associated with athlete (and racehorse) overtraining and dehydration. 
 
I read onwards and found someone suggesting nattokinase as a treatment - a blood thinner to reduce blood viscosity. Nattokinase - I know that substance well. I'd already researched it when looking at ways to correct a likely vitamin K2 deficiency in my diet. I'd even scoured Chinese grocery stores a half dozen times looking for it. 
 
Interestingly, K2 is mostly produced by gut bacteria - and Accutane disrupts the gut. More interestingly, I did not eliminate my IBS cramps until I took the one supplement I bought to correct K2 deficiency - Blue Ice CLO with Butter Oil. 
 
A LOT of my symptoms from that period match up with low sed rate problems - dizzyness when standing, inability to stand for very long, massive fatigue. Very similar to athletic overtraining. Yet my hematocrit was normal, which should rule out blood viscosity, if I understand these things correctly. 
 
So what if Accutane somehow puts us in the same poorly understood category as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome sufferers, via a mechanism somehow mediated by K2 deficiency? That would fit a general dehydration / fluid dynamics malfunction...
 
Here's some intriguing info on K2. The first page recommends MK-4, whereas I say just go with Blue Ice - it has a long history of powerful results. 
"Vitamin K absorption is improved by dietary fat which stimulates bile secretion."
 
K2 is Weston Price's "Activator X". Could it be the secret to French and Japanese longevity? And the secret to our recovery? 
 
-------END SECTION-------
 
Below I'll post my initial thought dump, selected lab results and research log on sedimentation rate. Feel free to skip or skim. 
 
* lab results 10/2012 
 
stool test results
alkaline stool - 8.5, normal is 7-7.5
low carb, high protein is cause. slow transit too. should be constipated. fiber recommended.
can vary a lot without mattering much. 
 
TSH 8.83 (out of range) normal range .5-6.0
FT4 .81 in range
if FT4 and FT3 are fine, then don't worry about TSH, if you feel good. 
verdict: ignore. but retest for curiosity. 
T3 in range
thyroglobulin antibodies in range
thyroid peroxidase antibodies in range
folate in range
 
CBC/Diff ambiguous default:
WBC, RBC, hemoglobin etc all normal
 
Comp Metabolic Panel:
BUN 22 mg/dl high range: 6-20 mg/dl
BUN / Creatine ratio 22 high range 8-19
rest all normal, including bilirubin, AST, ALT
TSH 11.46 high range .45 - 4.5
 
negative on t-Transglutaminase tTG IgA
 
sedimentation rate- Westergren 2mm/hr range 0-15 mm/hr
immunoglobulin A, Qn, Serum 205 mg/dl range 91-414 mg/dl
 
ultrasound liver, gallbladder, pancreas, kidneys, spleen, abdomen appear normal. common bile duct .39cm, normal. 
 
high BUN and stool PH could both be from eating tons of protein. liver damage LOWERS BUN. neither is the problem.
 
hmmm. super low sed rate implicated in chronic fatigue syndrome! doctor told me I was perfectly healthy because I had "the lowest sed rate he'd ever seen." I was ridiculously proud of my anti-inflammatory diet's profound effects. But what if that was actually the marker of disease, and my stupid ego prevented me from questioning his praise!!
 
the reason is HYPERVISCOSITY. drying effects of Accutane, anyone? can be a result of long term alcohol abuse, aka liver damage. interesting... 
 
"I have purchased nattokinase and lumbrokinase for the hypothetical hypercoagulation but haven't really tested them yet."
 
What's in nattokinase and nowhere else? K2! What cured me, and nothing else? K2!
 
"They propose that the acquired inability to meet the usual training demands results in increased cytokine release leading to low level systemic inflammation and raised blood viscosity resulting in the common subjective feeling of 'heavy legs' - plus the other associated somatic and psychological symptoms."
 
did my blood panel already cover blood viscosity? I don't know how to read it. Anyone have advice on what to look for? 
Hm my hematocrit was normal, right in middle of range. As was everything else but BUN.
 
"Erythrocyte Sedimentation Rate (ESR)
 
An optional extra test which many vets and trainers find invaluable. In the laboratory the sample is mixed well and the tube stood upright whilst the red cells sediment through the plasma naturally. Readings are taken at 10, 20, 30 and 60 minutes. 
 
The rate is low in a dehydrated horse or over- trained horse and rapid in an unfit or anaemic horse. Most normal fit horses will have an ESR between 30 and 40 mm/hour"
 
bingo, dehydration indicator too. 
 
"Well rested athletes will show a consistent heart rate between measurements, but Rusko found a marked increase (10 beats/minutes or more) in the 120 second-post-standing measurement of athletes on the verge of overtraining. Such a change may indicate that you have not recovered from a previous workout, are fatigued, or otherwise stressed and it may be helpful to reduce training or rest another day before performing another workout"
 
I used to have major problems standing up. faintness. 
 


awesome K2 links


#3427 and1

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:18 AM

I read onwards and found someone suggesting nattokinase as a treatment - a blood thinner to reduce blood viscosity. Nattokinase - I know that substance well. I'd already researched it when looking at ways to correct a likely vitamin K2 deficiency in my diet. I'd even scoured Chinese grocery stores a half dozen times looking for it. 

 

 

Drinking lemon juice on empty stomach in the mornings is a natural blood thinner that reduces blood viscosity as well. I used continually for about 3 years and started again recently. 

 

The problem you have is knowing how to interpret the blood results given that you eat a very extrem diet. If you'd be eating the average american diet you'd know much more.  

 

Checked my blood sedimenation levels, they were never below 2 mm/h (scale says <15 mm/h) that was at the beginning of 2010. In the years prior to that levels of 4, 6 and 4 had been measured.

 

Regarding CFS I can attest you that most alternative treatment protocols show a lot of resemblance. Look at protocols of people who claim to have been healed and they have a lot in common does not matter whether we are talking about crohn's disease, autism, CFS, IBS, hepatitis the list goes on. Intuitively accutane sufferers have something in common with CFS patients. I am just posting my opinion, straight bro-science. One of the root causes of fatigue in my book is a fucked up liver, it makes people sluggish, takes their drive and motiviation. What does accutane to some people do, it fucks up their liver.


Edited by Undergroundwellness, 21 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#3428 and1

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:33 AM

Other markers I would look for are in that order:

 

1. Cholinesterase - tells you whether the liver is actually doing what it is supposed to

2. IgG - important marker in combination with a lot of other blood markers

3. alkalin phosphatase - elevated levels can point towards pesticide poisoning, all kinds of liver problems

 

To me intuitively pesticide poisoning and being poisoned with pharmaceuticals is basically the same. 



#3429 navile

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:20 PM

I read onwards and found someone suggesting nattokinase as a treatment - a blood thinner to reduce blood viscosity. 

 

 

http://home.roadrunn.../07jfasting.htm

 

--

 

"Thinning the blood is one the most important things you can do when you are sick, and juices do that.

Thinning our blood is one the greatest keys to getting healthy. It increases our circulation because the blood becomes more like water than molasses. The bottom line is, juice fasting thins your blood. That allows your circulation to get deeper in your body into the vital areas, into the capillaries that were filled with fat and all clogged-up.

Juice fasting is for the incurables. Juice fasting is the answer, because it allows your body to rest - and it lets your body choose what it wants to heal."

 

--

 

I'm coming around with fruits and vegetables again, but maybe it's worth a try for you? They speak in month here (1,2,3), I think this could be quite different to a week or two. I wanted to start today actually until I quickly realised I need much more juice a day as I thought to become not hungry, ergo need much more money, everything organic, not cheap. So I decided to give me a liter every morning instead of breakfast as a beginning.


Edited by navile, 21 July 2013 - 12:20 PM.


#3430 JosephBuchignani

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:52 PM

Yes, juicing looks interesting to me. I have a lot of supps to try first, and finishing polyphasic nighttime adaptation. But with the hypersensitivity reduced, it looks more feasible and promising. 
 
Re liver tests, alkaline phosphatase was normal, as was bilirubin, AST, ALT, total globulin, IgA. Whatever is happening is pretty invisible on standard diagnostics. 
 
Which, as far as I'm concerned, means that if you can successfully treat the symptoms, you've won. There's no underlying condition to treat. 


#3431 oli girl

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:43 PM

http://www.cncfhope....es/file_385.pdf

 

Keeping ya informed. I ran across this and found it interesting. It's talking about instructions for neuroblastoma patients and pgs 5-7 list side effects. I found it interesting they claim that depression and suicide has only been found in teens and adults with acne on lower dosages. Hmmm...So your more prone to depression and suicide having acne vs cancer?????



#3432 JosephBuchignani

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

Hong Kong government reaffirms UDCA safety in face of primary sclerosing cholangitis study. UDCA remains an OTC drug in Hong Kong, with zero adverse event reports. 

 

Read the press release yourself:

 

http://www.info.gov....01112060365.htm



#3433 and1

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:58 AM

Yes, juicing looks interesting to me. I have a lot of supps to try first, and finishing polyphasic nighttime adaptation. But with the hypersensitivity reduced, it looks more feasible and promising. 
 
Re liver tests, alkaline phosphatase was normal, as was bilirubin, AST, ALT, total globulin, IgA. Whatever is happening is pretty invisible on standard diagnostics. 
 
Which, as far as I'm concerned, means that if you can successfully treat the symptoms, you've won. There's no underlying condition to treat. 

 

If I understand you correctly you were already on this diet you are still on at the time the blood samples were taken?! No wonder everything is normal. Start eating some foods like sugar, wheat and I am quite sure many of the liver markers would go out of wack.



Hong Kong government reaffirms UDCA safety in face of primary sclerosing cholangitis study. UDCA remains an OTC drug in Hong Kong, with zero adverse event reports. 

 

Read the press release yourself:

 

http://www.info.gov....01112060365.htm

 

At the end of the day everybody has to decide for him or herself, because UDCA is like any other product marketed. There is a thin line between marketing and science in the pharma industry and just to be clear even if UDCA works and is the best product on the market, the companies selling it only care about their bottom line. This is how the incentive structures of companies are designed. How are you destroying growth prospects and prospective returns for companies selling such a product, by claiming that it is not safe... So what are they doing: They claim the opposite. The doc prescribing the medication often times has little clue about the safety of such a product unless he has been prescribing it for a longer period of time.


Edited by Undergroundwellness, 22 July 2013 - 01:59 AM.


#3434 JosephBuchignani

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:26 AM

Yes, almost the same diet. Maybe you're right... I don't know. Impossible to test, my bowels would give first. 

 

UDCA is not patented by a superpower pharma giant capable of influencing the regulatory / medical industrial complex. It has a long history of use as part of traditional chinese medicine. 



#3435 polyphasic

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:14 AM

@james: Hey matey, I know you are the product of incestuous union, and as a corollary, you believe that sisters and brothers make better lovers. I am not your bro and I have no interest in your sis. Do not PM me over at Propeciahelp.com hog wart. I know you live here.



#3436 Gladiatoro

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:33 AM

For dry skin coconut oil works wonders , among other benefits , also works great for sunburn as I have discovered myself due to over exposure on the weekend.

 

http://www.care2.com...oconut-oil.html

 

 

http://www.naturalne...l_remedies.html



#3437 and1

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:35 AM

For dry skin coconut oil works wonders , among other benefits , also works great for sunburn as I have discovered myself due to over exposure on the weekend.

 

http://www.care2.com...oconut-oil.html

 

 

http://www.naturalne...l_remedies.html

 

I have tried coconut oil and I still use it for cooking, but in my case extra virgin olive oil outperfoms coconut oil by an order of magnitude. Put it on before you go to bed.



BTW: Great app to organize and manage information found on the net is Pearltrees. It is available for android, chrome and ios. Really helps to stay on top of things.


Edited by Undergroundwellness, 22 July 2013 - 07:31 AM.


#3438 and1

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:38 AM

Told yall about Curing Courtney before. Check this link great story and info if you think the root cause may be liver and immune system related:

 

http://vimeo.com/59828584



#3439 accux

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:16 PM

Here is a theory regarding how isotretinoin effects cellular mechanisms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3219165/ (1)

He is talking about how FoXO is upregulated by isotretinoin and effects to HPA, hormone levels etc.
 
...and another theory...how western diet downregulates FoXO resulting in ACNE.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3408989/ (2)

 

It would be good if we had more of these studies...

without reading too much into both, I would say...

(1) suggests how potent a drug isotretinoin is and its effects on critical non-sebacous glan tissues in human body,

(2) shows how diet can help or exacerbate the condition.



#3440 mes6890

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:56 PM

Here is a little more info on saw palmetto , the berries of the saw palmetto pland are regarded by folk medicine as a SEXUAL STIMULANT , INCREASING MALE FERTILITY  and breast size in women . Pharmacologically saw palmetto is classified as having immune stimulating and ani edema effects . However saw palmetto is most prized for it's ability to reduce enlarge prostate knows as benign prostatic hypertrophy or BHP and to alleviate the pain and inflammation associated with this condition.

According to research published in the British journal of urology , saw palmetto is a potent inhibitor of conversion of testosterone into dht , known to cause rapid multiplication of prostate cells which eventually leads to an lenolaredged prostate gland . In more technical terms , saw palmetto inhibits the enzyme testosterone 5 alpha reductase from transforming healthy testosterone hormones into unhealthy dht , saw palmetto also prevents dht from attaching to prostate cellular receptor sites and so promotes dht breakdown and excretion .

 

Saw palmetto also acts as an antiseptic and astringent , shrinking inflamed urinary system tissues and stimulating urine flow to expel irritants and toxins. Saw palmetto is considered by many to be the herb of choice for treating cystiis , IMPOTENCE , prostatitis , REDUCED OR ABSENT SEX DRIVE  , REVERSING MALE PATTERN BALDING , testicular astrophy and urinary tract infections . Perhaps less well known is th use of saw palmetto for hirsutism excessive body hair in a masculine distribution and virilism development of secondary male sexual characteristics  ,  also knows as pseudohermaphroditism in women.

 

In 1984 a double blind study was conducted on the ability of saw palmetto berries to fight the hormone imbalance which causes prostate growth . The results printed in the British journal  of clinical pharmacology  showed saw palmetto had a very significant effect on urine flow of men with benign prostatic hypertrophy BHP symptoms. Further , the results showed saw palmetto  proved more effective than the DRUG Proscar which is commonly prescribed for prostate problems.

 

Due to the presence of steroidal saponins , saw palmetto is considered an anabolic agent , strengthening the building up body tissues and encouraging weight gain . Thus , saw palmetto has gained popularity with body builders and others desiring muscle size and strength , as well as those suffering  from general debility , wasting diseases , or failure to thrive.

 

So you see Saw Palmetto has MANY BENEFITS and that's why I use it.  (=

Hi all - I'm not going to read this entire thread, but I want to add my two cents on 5-AR inhibition through saw palmetto. It seems like there are mostly men talking about this. I took this stuff for a month in November 2011, and 20 months later, it's become the worst decision I ever made. Saw palmetto could and probably would be a saving grace for many of you. Nevertheless, I've since learned that inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT is serious business. For a minority of individuals like myself, it has debilitating consequences. You can't know your risk factor for developing sides from taking something like saw palmetto or finasteride. I've had persistent cognitive and sexual side effects that I wouldn't wish upon anyone on this site. I won't tell anyone what to do, but I hope folks will take my example to heart. All the best to you!

 

P.S. If anyone took saw palmetto and experienced any side effects of any kind, regardless of the duration, PLEASE get in touch with me.


Edited by playsomebeat, 23 July 2013 - 03:41 PM.





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