Repairing the long-term damage from Accutane

8,505 posts in this topic

Hi guys,
I have some potentially very exciting news on a new angle - vitamin K2, low sedimentation rate, dehydration, chronic fatigue syndrome, and athletic overtraining.
Sound interesting? Read on...
You can test my theory two ways:
1. Get a comprehensive blood panel and check whether your sedimentation rate is very low, e.g. 0-4.
2. Try a high K2 supplement such as nattokinase or Blue Ice.
3. Do you feel dizzy when standing up, or have difficulty standing for normal periods of time?
---
I finally had my comprehensive test results from 10/2012 scanned and sent to me. Today I went through them with a fine toothed comb.
The only markers that stood out initially were high BUN, stool PH and TSH. However:
1. high BUN and stool PH are explained by my high protein, low carb, low fiber diet
2. I did not respond to traditional or alternative hypothyroid therapy, and TSH can show idiosyncratic variation.
I went through the whole battery of tests and came up blank. Apparently healthy as a horse. Then an odd memory popped - I remember my doctor saying exactly that. He congratulated me on my very low inflammation markers, saying I had the "lowest sedimentation rate he'd ever seen!"
At the time I took that as confirmation of the brilliance of my anti-inflammatory diet, and proceeded to tell everyone so. But what if my ego caused me to overlook the critical disease marker?
So I googled it. In the first page of results, I discovered that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome sufferers ALSO have super-low sedimentation rates! Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.
Low sedimentation rate is NORMALLY a positive indicator. But it's also associated with athlete (and racehorse) overtraining and dehydration.
I read onwards and found someone suggesting nattokinase as a treatment - a blood thinner to reduce blood viscosity. Nattokinase - I know that substance well. I'd already researched it when looking at ways to correct a likely vitamin K2 deficiency in my diet. I'd even scoured Chinese grocery stores a half dozen times looking for it.
Interestingly, K2 is mostly produced by gut bacteria - and Accutane disrupts the gut. More interestingly, I did not eliminate my IBS cramps until I took the one supplement I bought to correct K2 deficiency - Blue Ice CLO with Butter Oil.
A LOT of my symptoms from that period match up with low sed rate problems - dizzyness when standing, inability to stand for very long, massive fatigue. Very similar to athletic overtraining. Yet my hematocrit was normal, which should rule out blood viscosity, if I understand these things correctly.
So what if Accutane somehow puts us in the same poorly understood category as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome sufferers, via a mechanism somehow mediated by K2 deficiency? That would fit a general dehydration / fluid dynamics malfunction...
Here's some intriguing info on K2. The first page recommends MK-4, whereas I say just go with Blue Ice - it has a long history of powerful results.
"Vitamin K absorption is improved by dietary fat which stimulates bile secretion."
K2 is Weston Price's "Activator X". Could it be the secret to French and Japanese longevity? And the secret to our recovery?
-------END SECTION-------
Below I'll post my initial thought dump, selected lab results and research log on sedimentation rate. Feel free to skip or skim.
* lab results 10/2012
stool test results
alkaline stool - 8.5, normal is 7-7.5
low carb, high protein is cause. slow transit too. should be constipated. fiber recommended.
can vary a lot without mattering much.
TSH 8.83 (out of range) normal range .5-6.0
FT4 .81 in range
if FT4 and FT3 are fine, then don't worry about TSH, if you feel good.
verdict: ignore. but retest for curiosity.
T3 in range
thyroglobulin antibodies in range
thyroid peroxidase antibodies in range
folate in range
CBC/Diff ambiguous default:
WBC, RBC, hemoglobin etc all normal
Comp Metabolic Panel:
BUN 22 mg/dl high range: 6-20 mg/dl
BUN / Creatine ratio 22 high range 8-19
rest all normal, including bilirubin, AST, ALT
TSH 11.46 high range .45 - 4.5
negative on t-Transglutaminase tTG IgA
sedimentation rate- Westergren 2mm/hr range 0-15 mm/hr
immunoglobulin A, Qn, Serum 205 mg/dl range 91-414 mg/dl
ultrasound liver, gallbladder, pancreas, kidneys, spleen, abdomen appear normal. common bile duct .39cm, normal.
high BUN and stool PH could both be from eating tons of protein. liver damage LOWERS BUN. neither is the problem.
hmmm. super low sed rate implicated in chronic fatigue syndrome! doctor told me I was perfectly healthy because I had "the lowest sed rate he'd ever seen." I was ridiculously proud of my anti-inflammatory diet's profound effects. But what if that was actually the marker of disease, and my stupid ego prevented me from questioning his praise!!
the reason is HYPERVISCOSITY. drying effects of Accutane, anyone? can be a result of long term alcohol abuse, aka liver damage. interesting...
"I have purchased nattokinase and lumbrokinase for the hypothetical hypercoagulation but haven't really tested them yet."
What's in nattokinase and nowhere else? K2! What cured me, and nothing else? K2!
"They propose that the acquired inability to meet the usual training demands results in increased cytokine release leading to low level systemic inflammation and raised blood viscosity resulting in the common subjective feeling of 'heavy legs' - plus the other associated somatic and psychological symptoms."
did my blood panel already cover blood viscosity? I don't know how to read it. Anyone have advice on what to look for?
Hm my hematocrit was normal, right in middle of range. As was everything else but BUN.
"Erythrocyte Sedimentation Rate (ESR)
An optional extra test which many vets and trainers find invaluable. In the laboratory the sample is mixed well and the tube stood upright whilst the red cells sediment through the plasma naturally. Readings are taken at 10, 20, 30 and 60 minutes.
The rate is low in a dehydrated horse or over- trained horse and rapid in an unfit or anaemic horse. Most normal fit horses will have an ESR between 30 and 40 mm/hour"
bingo, dehydration indicator too.
"Well rested athletes will show a consistent heart rate between measurements, but Rusko found a marked increase (10 beats/minutes or more) in the 120 second-post-standing measurement of athletes on the verge of overtraining. Such a change may indicate that you have not recovered from a previous workout, are fatigued, or otherwise stressed and it may be helpful to reduce training or rest another day before performing another workout"
I used to have major problems standing up. faintness.


awesome K2 links
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Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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I read onwards and found someone suggesting nattokinase as a treatment - a blood thinner to reduce blood viscosity. Nattokinase - I know that substance well. I'd already researched it when looking at ways to correct a likely vitamin K2 deficiency in my diet. I'd even scoured Chinese grocery stores a half dozen times looking for it.

Drinking lemon juice on empty stomach in the mornings is a natural blood thinner that reduces blood viscosity as well. I used continually for about 3 years and started again recently.

The problem you have is knowing how to interpret the blood results given that you eat a very extrem diet. If you'd be eating the average american diet you'd know much more.

Checked my blood sedimenation levels, they were never below 2 mm/h (scale says <15 mm/h) that was at the beginning of 2010. In the years prior to that levels of 4, 6 and 4 had been measured.

Regarding CFS I can attest you that most alternative treatment protocols show a lot of resemblance. Look at protocols of people who claim to have been healed and they have a lot in common does not matter whether we are talking about crohn's disease, autism, CFS, IBS, hepatitis the list goes on. Intuitively accutane sufferers have something in common with CFS patients. I am just posting my opinion, straight bro-science. One of the root causes of fatigue in my book is a fucked up liver, it makes people sluggish, takes their drive and motiviation. What does accutane to some people do, it fucks up their liver.

Edited by Undergroundwellness

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Other markers I would look for are in that order:

1. Cholinesterase - tells you whether the liver is actually doing what it is supposed to

2. IgG - important marker in combination with a lot of other blood markers

3. alkalin phosphatase - elevated levels can point towards pesticide poisoning, all kinds of liver problems

To me intuitively pesticide poisoning and being poisoned with pharmaceuticals is basically the same.

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I read onwards and found someone suggesting nattokinase as a treatment - a blood thinner to reduce blood viscosity.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thadson/savelife/schulze/articles/07jfasting.htm

--

"Thinning the blood is one the most important things you can do when you are sick, and juices do that.

Thinning our blood is one the greatest keys to getting healthy. It increases our circulation because the blood becomes more like water than molasses. The bottom line is, juice fasting thins your blood. That allows your circulation to get deeper in your body into the vital areas, into the capillaries that were filled with fat and all clogged-up.

Juice fasting is for the incurables. Juice fasting is the answer, because it allows your body to rest - and it lets your body choose what it wants to heal."

--

I'm coming around with fruits and vegetables again, but maybe it's worth a try for you? They speak in month here (1,2,3), I think this could be quite different to a week or two. I wanted to start today actually until I quickly realised I need much more juice a day as I thought to become not hungry, ergo need much more money, everything organic, not cheap. So I decided to give me a liter every morning instead of breakfast as a beginning.

Edited by navile

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Yes, juicing looks interesting to me. I have a lot of supps to try first, and finishing polyphasic nighttime adaptation. But with the hypersensitivity reduced, it looks more feasible and promising.
Re liver tests, alkaline phosphatase was normal, as was bilirubin, AST, ALT, total globulin, IgA. Whatever is happening is pretty invisible on standard diagnostics.
Which, as far as I'm concerned, means that if you can successfully treat the symptoms, you've won. There's no underlying condition to treat.

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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http://www.cncfhope.org/cms_images/file_385.pdf

Keeping ya informed. I ran across this and found it interesting. It's talking about instructions for neuroblastoma patients and pgs 5-7 list side effects. I found it interesting they claim that depression and suicide has only been found in teens and adults with acne on lower dosages. Hmmm...So your more prone to depression and suicide having acne vs cancer?????


The secret of health for both mind & body

is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.

The Buddha


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Hong Kong government reaffirms UDCA safety in face of primary sclerosing cholangitis study. UDCA remains an OTC drug in Hong Kong, with zero adverse event reports.

Read the press release yourself:

http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201112/06/P201112060365.htm


Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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Yes, juicing looks interesting to me. I have a lot of supps to try first, and finishing polyphasic nighttime adaptation. But with the hypersensitivity reduced, it looks more feasible and promising.
Re liver tests, alkaline phosphatase was normal, as was bilirubin, AST, ALT, total globulin, IgA. Whatever is happening is pretty invisible on standard diagnostics.
Which, as far as I'm concerned, means that if you can successfully treat the symptoms, you've won. There's no underlying condition to treat.

If I understand you correctly you were already on this diet you are still on at the time the blood samples were taken?! No wonder everything is normal. Start eating some foods like sugar, wheat and I am quite sure many of the liver markers would go out of wack.

Hong Kong government reaffirms UDCA safety in face of primary sclerosing cholangitis study. UDCA remains an OTC drug in Hong Kong, with zero adverse event reports.

Read the press release yourself:

http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201112/06/P201112060365.htm

At the end of the day everybody has to decide for him or herself, because UDCA is like any other product marketed. There is a thin line between marketing and science in the pharma industry and just to be clear even if UDCA works and is the best product on the market, the companies selling it only care about their bottom line. This is how the incentive structures of companies are designed. How are you destroying growth prospects and prospective returns for companies selling such a product, by claiming that it is not safe... So what are they doing: They claim the opposite. The doc prescribing the medication often times has little clue about the safety of such a product unless he has been prescribing it for a longer period of time.

Edited by Undergroundwellness

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Yes, almost the same diet. Maybe you're right... I don't know. Impossible to test, my bowels would give first.

UDCA is not patented by a superpower pharma giant capable of influencing the regulatory / medical industrial complex. It has a long history of use as part of traditional chinese medicine.


Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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@james: Hey matey, I know you are the product of incestuous union, and as a corollary, you believe that sisters and brothers make better lovers. I am not your bro and I have no interest in your sis. Do not PM me over at Propeciahelp.com hog wart. I know you live here.

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For dry skin coconut oil works wonders , among other benefits , also works great for sunburn as I have discovered myself due to over exposure on the weekend.

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/6-healthy-uses-for-coconut-oil.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/041258_coconut_oil_health_benefits_natural_remedies.html

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For dry skin coconut oil works wonders , among other benefits , also works great for sunburn as I have discovered myself due to over exposure on the weekend.

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/6-healthy-uses-for-coconut-oil.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/041258_coconut_oil_health_benefits_natural_remedies.html

I have tried coconut oil and I still use it for cooking, but in my case extra virgin olive oil outperfoms coconut oil by an order of magnitude. Put it on before you go to bed.

BTW: Great app to organize and manage information found on the net is Pearltrees. It is available for android, chrome and ios. Really helps to stay on top of things.

Edited by Undergroundwellness
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Told yall about Curing Courtney before. Check this link great story and info if you think the root cause may be liver and immune system related:

http://vimeo.com/59828584

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Here is a theory regarding how isotretinoin effects cellular mechanisms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3219165/ (1)

He is talking about how FoXO is upregulated by isotretinoin and effects to HPA, hormone levels etc.
...and another theory...how western diet downregulates FoXO resulting in ACNE.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408989/ (2)

It would be good if we had more of these studies...

without reading too much into both, I would say...

(1) suggests how potent a drug isotretinoin is and its effects on critical non-sebacous glan tissues in human body,

(2) shows how diet can help or exacerbate the condition.

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Here is a little more info on saw palmetto , the berries of the saw palmetto pland are regarded by folk medicine as a SEXUAL STIMULANT , INCREASING MALE FERTILITY and breast size in women . Pharmacologically saw palmetto is classified as having immune stimulating and ani edema effects . However saw palmetto is most prized for it's ability to reduce enlarge prostate knows as benign prostatic hypertrophy or BHP and to alleviate the pain and inflammation associated with this condition.

According to research published in the British journal of urology , saw palmetto is a potent inhibitor of conversion of testosterone into dht , known to cause rapid multiplication of prostate cells which eventually leads to an lenolaredged prostate gland . In more technical terms , saw palmetto inhibits the enzyme testosterone 5 alpha reductase from transforming healthy testosterone hormones into unhealthy dht , saw palmetto also prevents dht from attaching to prostate cellular receptor sites and so promotes dht breakdown and excretion .

Saw palmetto also acts as an antiseptic and astringent , shrinking inflamed urinary system tissues and stimulating urine flow to expel irritants and toxins. Saw palmetto is considered by many to be the herb of choice for treating cystiis , IMPOTENCE , prostatitis , REDUCED OR ABSENT SEX DRIVE , REVERSING MALE PATTERN BALDING , testicular astrophy and urinary tract infections . Perhaps less well known is th use of saw palmetto for hirsutism excessive body hair in a masculine distribution and virilism development of secondary male sexual characteristics , also knows as pseudohermaphroditism in women.

In 1984 a double blind study was conducted on the ability of saw palmetto berries to fight the hormone imbalance which causes prostate growth . The results printed in the British journal of clinical pharmacology showed saw palmetto had a very significant effect on urine flow of men with benign prostatic hypertrophy BHP symptoms. Further , the results showed saw palmetto proved more effective than the DRUG Proscar which is commonly prescribed for prostate problems.

Due to the presence of steroidal saponins , saw palmetto is considered an anabolic agent , strengthening the building up body tissues and encouraging weight gain . Thus , saw palmetto has gained popularity with body builders and others desiring muscle size and strength , as well as those suffering from general debility , wasting diseases , or failure to thrive.

So you see Saw Palmetto has MANY BENEFITS and that's why I use it. (=

Hi all - I'm not going to read this entire thread, but I want to add my two cents on 5-AR inhibition through saw palmetto. It seems like there are mostly men talking about this. I took this stuff for a month in November 2011, and 20 months later, it's become the worst decision I ever made. Saw palmetto could and probably would be a saving grace for many of you. Nevertheless, I've since learned that inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT is serious business. For a minority of individuals like myself, it has debilitating consequences. You can't know your risk factor for developing sides from taking something like saw palmetto or finasteride. I've had persistent cognitive and sexual side effects that I wouldn't wish upon anyone on this site. I won't tell anyone what to do, but I hope folks will take my example to heart. All the best to you!

P.S. If anyone took saw palmetto and experienced any side effects of any kind, regardless of the duration, PLEASE get in touch with me.

Edited by playsomebeat
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Life with Accutane side effects: http://bloggingmybetterment.wordpress.com/


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This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest.

I disagree, I have made great progress the past two months thanks to this thread. At least one other person is progressing too.

Ever thought about certain folks having an interest to close down this thread???

Also I don't really know what you are doing on this thread, it appears that you actually can't wait to get on accutane:

I'm glad you're progressing, but I'm on this thread to learn both sides. Some of the posts just seem to ramble and shoot random comments. Other people who haven't been on Accutane have come to learn from this thread as well. I've been studying Accutane for a while now and this site has ( more or less ) been very useful to see the positives and negatives of it. I've held off on Accutane for a while in an attempt to try to find the "root" cause, but I have wasted so much time doing so and doctors are quite slow. I've been at this for a long time. I'm asking questions, but still waiting and hesitating to take something like this if there's an option to fix myself.

Get off gluten (better even all overly starchy foods), sugars. Reduce inflammation in your body and boost your body's ability to recover and heal itself. Increasing the speed at which wound healing occurs takes you a long way. The root cause will be some combination of hormone and immune system imbalance due to genetics, environmental polutants such as heavy metals and pesticides, eating the wrong foods etc.

My guess is you haven't seen my past posts on this and that's ok. I have been off these foods for years, including hidden culprits like casein and whey, or hidden glutens. I don't do dairy or wheat. I do fruit sugar. I've taken that away, and this away. My acne has reached a point where it doesn't care. I also heal slow as shit regardless. I think I heal faster eating "normal" foods actually. Also, someone mentioned Blue Ice, but I don't know what that is. I'm aware Accutane is the shittiest shit known to man. But when it makes you bleed all the time, causes pain and depression on top of all other things, it's very difficult to deal with and I know you can probably relate. You can't travel and not worry about it, eat on the go when you absolutely may need to or do other things that may be a part of life. My acne is not severe but it is moderate and very persistent and very damaging to my skin and I'm 25 now.

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This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest.

I disagree, I have made great progress the past two months thanks to this thread. At least one other person is progressing too.

Ever thought about certain folks having an interest to close down this thread???

Also I don't really know what you are doing on this thread, it appears that you actually can't wait to get on accutane:

I'm glad you're progressing, but I'm on this thread to learn both sides. Some of the posts just seem to ramble and shoot random comments. Other people who haven't been on Accutane have come to learn from this thread as well. I've been studying Accutane for a while now and this site has ( more or less ) been very useful to see the positives and negatives of it. I've held off on Accutane for a while in an attempt to try to find the "root" cause, but I have wasted so much time doing so and doctors are quite slow. I've been at this for a long time. I'm asking questions, but still waiting and hesitating to take something like this if there's an option to fix myself.

Get off gluten (better even all overly starchy foods), sugars. Reduce inflammation in your body and boost your body's ability to recover and heal itself. Increasing the speed at which wound healing occurs takes you a long way. The root cause will be some combination of hormone and immune system imbalance due to genetics, environmental polutants such as heavy metals and pesticides, eating the wrong foods etc.

My guess is you haven't seen my past posts on this and that's ok. I have been off these foods for years, including hidden culprits like casein and whey, or hidden glutens. I don't do dairy or wheat. I do fruit sugar. I've taken that away, and this away. My acne has reached a point where it doesn't care. I also heal slow as shit regardless. I think I heal faster eating "normal" foods actually. Also, someone mentioned Blue Ice, but I don't know what that is. I'm aware Accutane is the shittiest shit known to man. But when it makes you bleed all the time, causes pain and depression on top of all other things, it's very difficult to deal with and I know you can probably relate. You can't travel and not worry about it, eat on the go when you absolutely may need to or do other things that may be a part of life. My acne is not severe but it is moderate and very persistent and very damaging to my skin and I'm 25 now.

Blue Ice is a high potency cod liver oil in which is high in Vit A and is known as a natural cure for acne. I have told you a million times that with your health conditions that if you take Accutane even a low dose like you inquired about in another thread then you are asking for even more or worse health problems.

I read this study last night I almost posted, but thought it had already been posted in this thread! Thanks

Here is a theory regarding how isotretinoin effects cellular mechanisms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3219165/ (1)

He is talking about how FoXO is upregulated by isotretinoin and effects to HPA, hormone levels etc.
...and another theory...how western diet downregulates FoXO resulting in ACNE.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408989/ (2)

It would be good if we had more of these studies...

without reading too much into both, I would say...

(1) suggests how potent a drug isotretinoin is and its effects on critical non-sebacous glan tissues in human body,

(2) shows how diet can help or exacerbate the condition.


The secret of health for both mind & body

is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.

The Buddha


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This thread has become pretty useless for most of us because of the trolls and doesn't seem to be going anywhere to be honest.

I disagree, I have made great progress the past two months thanks to this thread. At least one other person is progressing too.

Ever thought about certain folks having an interest to close down this thread???

Also I don't really know what you are doing on this thread, it appears that you actually can't wait to get on accutane:

I'm glad you're progressing, but I'm on this thread to learn both sides. Some of the posts just seem to ramble and shoot random comments. Other people who haven't been on Accutane have come to learn from this thread as well. I've been studying Accutane for a while now and this site has ( more or less ) been very useful to see the positives and negatives of it. I've held off on Accutane for a while in an attempt to try to find the "root" cause, but I have wasted so much time doing so and doctors are quite slow. I've been at this for a long time. I'm asking questions, but still waiting and hesitating to take something like this if there's an option to fix myself.

Get off gluten (better even all overly starchy foods), sugars. Reduce inflammation in your body and boost your body's ability to recover and heal itself. Increasing the speed at which wound healing occurs takes you a long way. The root cause will be some combination of hormone and immune system imbalance due to genetics, environmental polutants such as heavy metals and pesticides, eating the wrong foods etc.

My guess is you haven't seen my past posts on this and that's ok. I have been off these foods for years, including hidden culprits like casein and whey, or hidden glutens. I don't do dairy or wheat. I do fruit sugar. I've taken that away, and this away. My acne has reached a point where it doesn't care. I also heal slow as shit regardless. I think I heal faster eating "normal" foods actually. Also, someone mentioned Blue Ice, but I don't know what that is. I'm aware Accutane is the shittiest shit known to man. But when it makes you bleed all the time, causes pain and depression on top of all other things, it's very difficult to deal with and I know you can probably relate. You can't travel and not worry about it, eat on the go when you absolutely may need to or do other things that may be a part of life. My acne is not severe but it is moderate and very persistent and very damaging to my skin and I'm 25 now.

Blue Ice is a high potency cod liver oil in which is high in Vit A and is known as a natural cure for acne. I have told you a million times that with your health conditions that if you take Accutane even a low dose like you inquired about in another thread then you are asking for even more or worse health problems.

I read this study last night I almost posted, but thought it had already been posted in this thread! Thanks

>Here is a theory regarding how isotretinoin effects cellular mechanisms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3219165/ (1)

He is talking about how FoXO is upregulated by isotretinoin and effects to HPA, hormone levels etc.
...and another theory...how western diet downregulates FoXO resulting in ACNE.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408989/ (2)

It would be good if we had more of these studies...

without reading too much into both, I would say...

(1) suggests how potent a drug isotretinoin is and its effects on critical non-sebacous glan tissues in human body,

(2) shows how diet can help or exacerbate the condition.

No need to be so unpleasant. I obviously remember that but you can't blame me for investigating. I was responding to him anyway and I think if I'm not mistaken, someone else mentioned Blue Ice, but thanks for the info. The Blue Ice I see is mainly flavored, so hopefully that's the right one. cool.png

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Mahweooh, I suspect your diet is hurting rather than helping you. Going heavy fruit on an elimination diet is a bad idea. Fructose is not your friend. You are probably right that you heal faster eating normal foods. Sounds like you have suboptimized yourself into a negative corner. I did that multiple times before I found the correct dietary solution.
blue ice cod liver oil butter oil blend:
Get the one at the bottom. take 1 per day in the morning.
---
** fox01 explains all Accutane sides
The Fox01 study sounds amazingly accurate. It explains the underlying "rhyming" nature of Accutane injuries, their puzzling breadth and idiosyncrasy.
What then is the solution? Can we target Fox01 directly again, or must we fight each individual brush fire? It's over my head, although I can hear the ring of truth.
"In fact, all isotretinoin-mediated effects on sebocyte apoptosis, sebaceous lipogenesis, anti-inflammatory activity, downregulation of ROS can be explained by upregulation of nuclear levels of FoxO transcription factors. All isotretinoin-induced adverse effect on hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism, retinoid-induced dyslipoproteinemia, loss of bone density, myotoxic effects, mucocutaneous side effects, adverse psychiatric effects, chemopreventive effects and isotretinoin’s teratogenicity appear to result from a common mechanism, i.e., FoxO-mediated changes of gene expression."
That is holy-shit level brilliance.
"In contrast, increased insulin/IGF-1 signaling of puberty and western diet due to high glycemic load and consumption of insulinotropic milk and milk products downregulates nuclear FoxO levels and thus promotes the development of acne.1"
Hellooooo. Milk is insulinotropic? Plain yogurt diet, anyone?
WOW! Gotta read Table 2. A breakdown of the rhyme of Accutane:
"Table 2. Comparison of retinoid-induced apoptosis in various cell types"
EVERYTHING is there!!!!
** Supps for Fox0
Goal is to downregular FOXO. Googling...
Resveratrol, longevity treatments
Hmm, if it's just longevity, then overall low inflammation diet and raising overall health and vitality is the logical way to go. Which is exactly what I've had to do.
Guess what shrimp and cod liver oil are full of? DHA:
Others:
Tyrosol (olive oil)
Green Tea
Curcumin:
Supps reviewing:
Resveratrol - always doubted and ignored this one. Wrongly, it's now clear. Just takes time to show effect, like Accutane, cuz attacking same pathways. After a month, increased energy. High priority to buy.
Tyrosol
Nothing exists, drink olive oil instead if able
Green tea
well known
DHA
getting plenty, natural sources
Curcumin
high priority to buy or try if have already (almost certain)


So THAT'S why Accutane is so hard to fix. It's the same problem everywhere, but you have to work around existing damage to treat, and you have to target different systems to fix.

1 person likes this

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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Mahweooh, I suspect your diet is hurting rather than helping you. Going heavy fruit on an elimination diet is a bad idea. Fructose is not your friend. You are probably right that you heal faster eating normal foods. Sounds like you have suboptimized yourself into a negative corner. I did that multiple times before I found the correct dietary solution.
blue ice cod liver oil butter oil blend:
Get the one at the bottom. take 1 per day in the morning.
---
** fox01 explains all Accutane sides
The Fox01 study sounds amazingly accurate. It explains the underlying "rhyming" nature of Accutane injuries, their puzzling breadth and idiosyncrasy.
What then is the solution? Can we target Fox01 directly again, or must we fight each individual brush fire? It's over my head, although I can hear the ring of truth.
"In fact, all isotretinoin-mediated effects on sebocyte apoptosis, sebaceous lipogenesis, anti-inflammatory activity, downregulation of ROS can be explained by upregulation of nuclear levels of FoxO transcription factors. All isotretinoin-induced adverse effect on hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism, retinoid-induced dyslipoproteinemia, loss of bone density, myotoxic effects, mucocutaneous side effects, adverse psychiatric effects, chemopreventive effects and isotretinoin’s teratogenicity appear to result from a common mechanism, i.e., FoxO-mediated changes of gene expression."
That is holy-shit level brilliance.
"In contrast, increased insulin/IGF-1 signaling of puberty and western diet due to high glycemic load and consumption of insulinotropic milk and milk products downregulates nuclear FoxO levels and thus promotes the development of acne.1"
Hellooooo. Milk is insulinotropic? Plain yogurt diet, anyone?
WOW! Gotta read Table 2. A breakdown of the rhyme of Accutane:
"Table 2. Comparison of retinoid-induced apoptosis in various cell types"
EVERYTHING is there!!!!
** Supps for Fox0
Goal is to downregular FOXO. Googling...
Resveratrol, longevity treatments
Hmm, if it's just longevity, then overall low inflammation diet and raising overall health and vitality is the logical way to go. Which is exactly what I've had to do.
Guess what shrimp and cod liver oil are full of? DHA:
Others:
Tyrosol (olive oil)
Green Tea
Curcumin:
Supps reviewing:
Resveratrol - always doubted and ignored this one. Wrongly, it's now clear. Just takes time to show effect, like Accutane, cuz attacking same pathways. After a month, increased energy. High priority to buy.
Tyrosol
Nothing exists, drink olive oil instead if able
Green tea
well known
DHA
getting plenty, natural sources
Curcumin
high priority to buy or try if have already (almost certain)

So THAT'S why Accutane is so hard to fix. It's the same problem everywhere, but you have to work around existing damage to treat, and you have to target different systems to fix.

Joseph I think that' s your best post yet , also Blue Ice is certainly super healthy stuff I think I'll buy some , yeah it's hard to fix Accutane damage

but I think were on the right track , I think I'll switch from organic coffee in the morning to organic green tea , it's funny this drug is forcing me to

live like a health nut lol...

Edited by gladiatoro

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Mahweooh, I suspect your diet is hurting rather than helping you. Going heavy fruit on an elimination diet is a bad idea. Fructose is not your friend. You are probably right that you heal faster eating normal foods. Sounds like you have suboptimized yourself into a negative corner. I did that multiple times before I found the correct dietary solution.
blue ice cod liver oil butter oil blend:
Get the one at the bottom. take 1 per day in the morning.
---
** fox01 explains all Accutane sides
The Fox01 study sounds amazingly accurate. It explains the underlying "rhyming" nature of Accutane injuries, their puzzling breadth and idiosyncrasy.
What then is the solution? Can we target Fox01 directly again, or must we fight each individual brush fire? It's over my head, although I can hear the ring of truth.
"In fact, all isotretinoin-mediated effects on sebocyte apoptosis, sebaceous lipogenesis, anti-inflammatory activity, downregulation of ROS can be explained by upregulation of nuclear levels of FoxO transcription factors. All isotretinoin-induced adverse effect on hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism, retinoid-induced dyslipoproteinemia, loss of bone density, myotoxic effects, mucocutaneous side effects, adverse psychiatric effects, chemopreventive effects and isotretinoin’s teratogenicity appear to result from a common mechanism, i.e., FoxO-mediated changes of gene expression."
That is holy-shit level brilliance.
"In contrast, increased insulin/IGF-1 signaling of puberty and western diet due to high glycemic load and consumption of insulinotropic milk and milk products downregulates nuclear FoxO levels and thus promotes the development of acne.1"
Hellooooo. Milk is insulinotropic? Plain yogurt diet, anyone?
WOW! Gotta read Table 2. A breakdown of the rhyme of Accutane:
"Table 2. Comparison of retinoid-induced apoptosis in various cell types"
EVERYTHING is there!!!!
** Supps for Fox0
Goal is to downregular FOXO. Googling...
Resveratrol, longevity treatments
Hmm, if it's just longevity, then overall low inflammation diet and raising overall health and vitality is the logical way to go. Which is exactly what I've had to do.
Guess what shrimp and cod liver oil are full of? DHA:
Others:
Tyrosol (olive oil)
Green Tea
Curcumin:
Supps reviewing:
Resveratrol - always doubted and ignored this one. Wrongly, it's now clear. Just takes time to show effect, like Accutane, cuz attacking same pathways. After a month, increased energy. High priority to buy.
Tyrosol
Nothing exists, drink olive oil instead if able
Green tea
well known
DHA
getting plenty, natural sources
Curcumin
high priority to buy or try if have already (almost certain)

So THAT'S why Accutane is so hard to fix. It's the same problem everywhere, but you have to work around existing damage to treat, and you have to target different systems to fix.

Joseph I think that' s your best post yet , also Blue Ice is certainly super healthy stuff I think I'll buy some , yeah it's hard to fix Accutane damage

but I think were on the right track , I think I'll switch from organic coffee in the morning to organic green tea , it's funny this drug is forcing me to

live like a health nut lol...

I will get on the blue ice too, it takes the first place on my list of to do supps, but I am afraid that the oil is going to arrive rancid, because it is summer, this is why I will wait until at least October before ordering it.

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Makes no sense, underground. the oil does not go rancid. I waited to take mine for 6-8 months after ordering, and had it shipped during summer. It was still super potent.

1 person likes this

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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Here is a little more info on saw palmetto , the berries of the saw palmetto pland are regarded by folk medicine as a SEXUAL STIMULANT , INCREASING MALE FERTILITY and breast size in women . Pharmacologically saw palmetto is classified as having immune stimulating and ani edema effects . However saw palmetto is most prized for it's ability to reduce enlarge prostate knows as benign prostatic hypertrophy or BHP and to alleviate the pain and inflammation associated with this condition.

According to research published in the British journal of urology , saw palmetto is a potent inhibitor of conversion of testosterone into dht , known to cause rapid multiplication of prostate cells which eventually leads to an lenolaredged prostate gland . In more technical terms , saw palmetto inhibits the enzyme testosterone 5 alpha reductase from transforming healthy testosterone hormones into unhealthy dht , saw palmetto also prevents dht from attaching to prostate cellular receptor sites and so promotes dht breakdown and excretion .

Saw palmetto also acts as an antiseptic and astringent , shrinking inflamed urinary system tissues and stimulating urine flow to expel irritants and toxins. Saw palmetto is considered by many to be the herb of choice for treating cystiis , IMPOTENCE , prostatitis , REDUCED OR ABSENT SEX DRIVE , REVERSING MALE PATTERN BALDING , testicular astrophy and urinary tract infections . Perhaps less well known is th use of saw palmetto for hirsutism excessive body hair in a masculine distribution and virilism development of secondary male sexual characteristics , also knows as pseudohermaphroditism in women.

In 1984 a double blind study was conducted on the ability of saw palmetto berries to fight the hormone imbalance which causes prostate growth . The results printed in the British journal of clinical pharmacology showed saw palmetto had a very significant effect on urine flow of men with benign prostatic hypertrophy BHP symptoms. Further , the results showed saw palmetto proved more effective than the DRUG Proscar which is commonly prescribed for prostate problems.

Due to the presence of steroidal saponins , saw palmetto is considered an anabolic agent , strengthening the building up body tissues and encouraging weight gain . Thus , saw palmetto has gained popularity with body builders and others desiring muscle size and strength , as well as those suffering from general debility , wasting diseases , or failure to thrive.

So you see Saw Palmetto has MANY BENEFITS and that's why I use it. (=

Hi all - I'm not going to read this entire thread, but I want to add my two cents on 5-AR inhibition through saw palmetto. It seems like there are mostly men talking about this. I took this stuff for a month in November 2011, and 20 months later, it's become the worst decision I ever made. Saw palmetto could and probably would be a saving grace for many of you. Nevertheless, I've since learned that inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT is serious business. For a minority of individuals like myself, it has debilitating consequences. You can't know your risk factor for developing sides from taking something like saw palmetto or finasteride. I've had persistent cognitive and sexual side effects that I wouldn't wish upon anyone on this site. I won't tell anyone what to do, but I hope folks will take my example to heart. All the best to you!

P.S. If anyone took saw palmetto and experienced any side effects of any kind, regardless of the duration, PLEASE get in touch with me.

My experience with SP wasn't bad , but I also found no GREAT BENEFIT from it other than some hair growth which was intriguing also as I

have stated before it seemed my sexual side effects were actually benefitial or the same never had a problem in that department anyways , so I

would not recommend it or deter people from taking it , the whole DHT blocker thing was run through the ringer with Z24 , it was his GREAT

contribution to this forum lol....

Taking all those antibiotics is a NO NO that will severely damage your immune system read some of my posts on ANTI- LIFE Biotics if

anything they will make your acne worse in the long run and destroy your gut health and immunity , NOT GOOD . If you want to take a

antibiotic take wild oil of oregano , this potent herb will make synthetic antibiotics look like complete garbage . And Joesph I forgot to metion

earlier your new avatar is very appropriate , me likes.

Edited by gladiatoro
1 person likes this

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Mahweooh, I suspect your diet is hurting rather than helping you. Going heavy fruit on an elimination diet is a bad idea. Fructose is not your friend. You are probably right that you heal faster eating normal foods. Sounds like you have suboptimized yourself into a negative corner. I did that multiple times before I found the correct dietary solution.
blue ice cod liver oil butter oil blend:
Get the one at the bottom. take 1 per day in the morning.
---
** fox01 explains all Accutane sides
The Fox01 study sounds amazingly accurate. It explains the underlying "rhyming" nature of Accutane injuries, their puzzling breadth and idiosyncrasy.
What then is the solution? Can we target Fox01 directly again, or must we fight each individual brush fire? It's over my head, although I can hear the ring of truth.
"In fact, all isotretinoin-mediated effects on sebocyte apoptosis, sebaceous lipogenesis, anti-inflammatory activity, downregulation of ROS can be explained by upregulation of nuclear levels of FoxO transcription factors. All isotretinoin-induced adverse effect on hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism, retinoid-induced dyslipoproteinemia, loss of bone density, myotoxic effects, mucocutaneous side effects, adverse psychiatric effects, chemopreventive effects and isotretinoin’s teratogenicity appear to result from a common mechanism, i.e., FoxO-mediated changes of gene expression."
That is holy-shit level brilliance.
"In contrast, increased insulin/IGF-1 signaling of puberty and western diet due to high glycemic load and consumption of insulinotropic milk and milk products downregulates nuclear FoxO levels and thus promotes the development of acne.1"
Hellooooo. Milk is insulinotropic? Plain yogurt diet, anyone?
WOW! Gotta read Table 2. A breakdown of the rhyme of Accutane:
"Table 2. Comparison of retinoid-induced apoptosis in various cell types"
EVERYTHING is there!!!!
** Supps for Fox0
Goal is to downregular FOXO. Googling...
Resveratrol, longevity treatments
Hmm, if it's just longevity, then overall low inflammation diet and raising overall health and vitality is the logical way to go. Which is exactly what I've had to do.
Guess what shrimp and cod liver oil are full of? DHA:
Others:
Tyrosol (olive oil)
Green Tea
Curcumin:
Supps reviewing:
Resveratrol - always doubted and ignored this one. Wrongly, it's now clear. Just takes time to show effect, like Accutane, cuz attacking same pathways. After a month, increased energy. High priority to buy.
Tyrosol
Nothing exists, drink olive oil instead if able
Green tea
well known
DHA
getting plenty, natural sources
Curcumin
high priority to buy or try if have already (almost certain)

So THAT'S why Accutane is so hard to fix. It's the same problem everywhere, but you have to work around existing damage to treat, and you have to target different systems to fix.

As I mentioned I've added or eliminated things over the years, thus ruling out this possibility. I'm well aware of the hidden things in diet that could "cause" acne but mine is very strange. I was off these various things and such and there really is no trigger anymore, unless I want to eat air and sunlight. Might not be a bad idea. tongue.png

Thanks for the information on Blue Ice. Maybe I'll pick some up and if it's good enough I'll let people know about its effects. It certainly can't hurt my health, at least. If I can help with any insight into abnormal labs you might have from Accutane let me know. I've come to learn a lot about the adrenals and parathyroid glands, as well as thyroid and pituitary when I was successfully able to diagnose my mother and I with parathyroid disease. Obviously no doc, but I have studied a lot to see when docs are missing something and I generally want to help.

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Now we start talking about antioxidants, they are probably also part of any protocol that is supposed to regenerate the liver. How I understand it is if you want to regenerate the liver you will use supplements to boost its metabolism and to make it let go of stored toxins. A while ago somebody posted a link to an articel which described how phase I and II of the detoxifiaction mechanism of the liver function and how free radicals are produced in the process. This is why you need a bunch of antioxidants to prevent the free radicals from doing damage. But even if you are not trying to rebuild the liver, antioxidants will help keep inflammation in check.

Edited by Undergroundwellness

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