Repairing the long-term damage from Accutane

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What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

>

What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

What kind of moron comes on this forum to get advice on what to take when on this poison , you should read the 157 pages of why NOT TO

TAKE accutane.

Gee some peoples kids.

Do you have better alternatives for treatment of acne conglobata??? I have tried vitamins, supplements, paleo diet, differin, epiduo, nizoral and some more and they never worked. I know about the side effects if there weren't any I would have taken Accutane years ago. Being rude isn't necessary gladiatoro.

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Here are some recent studies that will help temper the UDCA love fest. They also discuss the meekness of past studies.

http://phys.org/news169898396.html#nRlv

http://phys.org/news190631886.html

Both studies are about taking UDCA at a high dose. I have warned about taking UDCA at a high dose before.

High dose of UDCA means 28-30 mg/kg/day as explained in the studies. The standard dose that is used in conventional treatment is around:

14mg/kg/day.+- 1 mg

Taking a high dosage is something medicine is still experimenting with so I stick to what has been proven to be relatively save.

So, where do you go once the conventional dose fails to exhilarate, and it will? Is there an end in sight with this treatment (rhetorical question)? Don’t forget our livers are more than likely compromised, even if the damage is subclinical (not all) at this stage. Also, they are talking about it not working much above placebo levels (at high doses), and even then, in a subset of men whom are heavy.

Edited by camaroz28

"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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Hi,

wanted to ask if anyone has maybe some advice for me regarding my hormon values? I just have let checked them because of my all over dryness.

Everything looks normal except these three:

(all of them are too high, especially DHT)

dihyrdotestosterone >2500.0 - (250,00-990,00)

testosterone 8,59 - (1,93-8,36)

shbg 71,70 - (10,00-57,00)

I have an appointment next week to see what the cause of these high values are, thought though I ask you too, because you got probably more knowledge about that then some doctors do?

Thanks a lot in advance!

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dihyrdotestosterone >2500.0 - (250,00-990,00)

testosterone 8,59 - (1,93-8,36)

shbg 71,70 - (10,00-57,00)

I have an appointment next week to see what the cause of these high values are, thought though I ask you too, because you got probably more knowledge about that then some doctors do?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Well, you have hit the nail on the head. This is why the most pertinent questions at this stage are: Which country are you in? And whom do you intend on seeing, specifically? It would best to see a doctor that believes isotretinoin is capable of the above.

SHBG is mainly produced by the liver, so that is a start. Raised SHBG is usually increased by high estrogen and thyroxine; you don’t seem to have checked for that. When you inhibit DHT (with Accutane or with the herbs trading hands on this thread) testosterone levels increase. Your testosterone levels are on the high end, so perhaps there has been a recent reflux spike as the body attempts to attain some sort of equilibrium by building DHT stores again, now that inhibition should be over.

Edited by camaroz28

"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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Here are some recent studies that will help temper the UDCA love fest. They also discuss the meekness of past studies.

http://phys.org/news169898396.html#nRlv

http://phys.org/news190631886.html

Both studies are about taking UDCA at a high dose. I have warned about taking UDCA at a high dose before.

High dose of UDCA means 28-30 mg/kg/day as explained in the studies. The standard dose that is used in conventional treatment is around:

14mg/kg/day.+- 1 mg

Taking a high dosage is something medicine is still experimenting with so I stick to what has been proven to be relatively save.

So, where do you go once the conventional dose fails to exhilarate, and it will? Is there an end in sight with this treatment (rhetorical question)? Don’t forget our livers are more than likely compromised, even if the damage is subclinical (not all) at this stage. Also, they are talking about it not working much above placebo levels (at high doses), and even then, in a subset of men whom are heavy.

This treatment is very straightforward. The first 2-3 month you spread the dose over the 24 hours, thereafter you only take one dose of the same amount per day before bed time. The treatment typically lasts 6 to 24 months, thereafter you get off it slowly. It helps your system reach a new euqilibrium assuming your system is not totally mest up and has some power left to heal itself. It is not a drug that fights just the symptom, it provides the body with the resource it lacks and by doing so it will reduce inflammation in the system, make it work more efficiently particularly with respect to the liver, gallbladder and the pancreas.

I take 1250 mg a day. The first time I took 50000 mg in total, then I took a break of several months. The effects I got I think I described on here before. It had a broad range of positive effect for me, for instance, it made me gain a healthy 6 kg and reduced my cravings for food ever since. Now it is much more easy for me to follow a gluten free diet, I am even able to go low carb, without much effort. It is basically like taking insulin, as long as you are on it you are good, but you won't have to increase the dose over time quite the contrary. Plus it has the benefit that it may cure your liver/gallbladder system. Look into it.

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What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

>

What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

What kind of moron comes on this forum to get advice on what to take when on this poison , you should read the 157 pages of why NOT TO

TAKE accutane.

Gee some peoples kids.

Do you have better alternatives for treatment of acne conglobata??? I have tried vitamins, supplements, paleo diet, differin, epiduo, nizoral and some more and they never worked. I know about the side effects if there weren't any I would have taken Accutane years ago. Being rude isn't necessary gladiatoro.

Well take it at your own risk then , but don't say I didn't warn you and don't come crying back here when the side effects kick in ok because a lot

of them are permanent and cannot be reversed.

Edited by gladiatoro

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What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

>

What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

What kind of moron comes on this forum to get advice on what to take when on this poison , you should read the 157 pages of why NOT TO

TAKE accutane.

Gee some peoples kids.

Do you have better alternatives for treatment of acne conglobata??? I have tried vitamins, supplements, paleo diet, differin, epiduo, nizoral and some more and they never worked. I know about the side effects if there weren't any I would have taken Accutane years ago. Being rude isn't necessary gladiatoro.

Well take it at your own risk then , but don't say I didn't warn you and don't come crying back here when the side effects kick in ok because a lot

of the are permanent and cannot be reversed.

Gladiatoro - Calm Down! Though I don't promote Accutane, If Mikka indeed as Acne Congblata then that is actually what Accutane should be prescribed for...It is a very painful and rare acne disease. Hope everyone is doing well :)


The secret of health for both mind & body

is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.

The Buddha


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Major breakthrough. Doubled dose of UDCA to something ridiculous like 2g per day. Massive improvement. Definitely had cholestasis. Detox and digestive systems were not working, no matter how perfect the regimine, still life was difficult. Now is easy.

There it is Believe; the caution going out the window for results. I am not having a go at Joseph, but I was there years ago. Sooner rather than later, the labs will reveal all. I couldn't handle liver tonics after 2 years, and I can't see people fairing too well with this stuff, which is harsher. You made your point, and, I have made mine. I have yet to hear of any real cure through this stuff. Peace.


"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!

>

>

What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.

I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!

You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!lockquote>

What kind of moron comes on this forum to get advice on what to take when on this poison , you should read the 157 pages of why NOT TO

TAKE accutane.

Gee some peoples kids.

Do you have better alternatives for treatment of acne conglobata??? I have tried vitamins, supplements, paleo diet, differin, epiduo, nizoral and some more and they never worked. I know about the side effects if there weren't any I would have taken Accutane years ago. Being rude isn't necessary gladiatoro.

Well take it at your own risk then , but don't say I didn't warn you and don't come crying back here when the side effects kick in ok because a lot

of the are permanent and cannot be reversed.

Gladiatoro - Calm Down! Though I don't promote Accutane, If Mikka indeed as Acne Congblata then that is actually what Accutane should be prescribed for...It is a very painful and rare acne disease. Hope everyone is doing well smile.png

Oli girl I just warned him that's all if he wants to take the poison by all means I won't stop him it's his body and life , if he really has acne

Congblata I understand he is tempted to take it originally it was approved only for that condition ie severe acne , but he should really weigh all

options and should not make the decision lightly .

Edited by gladiatoro

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Well, you have hit the nail on the head. This is why the most pertinent questions at this stage are: Which country are you in? And whom do you intend on seeing, specifically? It would best to see a doctor that believes isotretinoin is capable of the above.

SHBG is mainly produced by the liver, so that is a start. Raised SHBG is usually increased by high estrogen and thyroxine; you don’t seem to have checked for that. When you inhibit DHT (with Accutane or with the herbs trading hands on this thread) testosterone levels increase. Your testosterone levels are on the high end, so perhaps there has been a recent reflux spike as the body attempts to attain some sort of equilibrium by building DHT stores again, now that inhibition should be over.

camaroz,

thanks a lot for your fast reply. really appreciate your help!

i'm in germany. i think it doesn't really matter to which doctor i go, since they have probably all never heard about these side effects, deny them or just don't know at all about this drug. i chose a urologist with a focus on andrology (male hormones) though of course.

i will just try my best to explain the case well, give them the necessary informations, coherences and then see what the next steps could be / they suggest.

i'm also in treatment by a chinese medicine doctor, who saw my values this week already. she will now cooperate with a friend of hers who‘s a biochemist which shall be very good in her field as she told me. will see what there comes maybe around.

i will also see that i get a test done with oestrogen and thyroxine levels.

i assume that as a good sign with the recent reflux?

so far my liver values were quite high too, but i could luckily manage to get them on a very very good, even quite low level recently through fasting/detox and a special nutrition, maybe this could be the reason for it?

Edited by navile

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.

i assume that as a good sign with the recent reflux?

so far my liver values were quite high too, but i could luckily manage to get them on a very very good, even quite low level recently through fasting/detox and a special nutrition, maybe this could be the reason for it?

Well, I don't know when you came off, but if it was recently, well then, that is a pretty good sign to have T and DHT up there. Many people are hypogondal for life and need TRT. It is great that you were able to calm your liver down, and hopefully your SHBG levels will follow suit. It sounds like you have some people who want to look out for you. If that doesn't work out you can have a phone consultation with Dr. Crisler in the U.S. It is good to have someone you don't have to fight all the way. All the best and hopefully you are not too bad off.


"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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"I have warned about taking UDCA at a high dose before."
That is complete BS. Believe doesn't know what he's talking about.
PSC is a completely different problem than the drug induced hepatocyte shutdown caused by Accutane that leads to intrahepatic cholestasis. This syndome is similar to well known effects experienced by steroid users and those with heavy metal poisoning. The best cure for it is UDCA, and the only side effects are possible backache and diarrhea, neither of which I've experienced. You can ramp up the dose to ridiculous levels without anything bad happening, and I certainly have. I'm taking between 1.5-3 grams per day and the more I take, the better I get.
PSC people experience subjective quality of life improvements from UDCA but die faster. Their subjective quality of life improves because UDCA assists liver function and is generally anti-inflammatory. We already know this. So why do they die faster?
To understand that, you need a basic understanding of liver function and the nature of PSC. PSC is a blockage of the intra-hepatic bile ducts, NOT a malfunction of the hepatocytes. PSC causes lakes of bile to form in the liver, destroying it. Obviously UDCA flows through the liver and contributes to the size of those lakes, thus accelerating mortality.
This is NOT an indictment of UDCA. It is working as intended. The problem is that PSC is a death sentence.
The other study just points out that UDCA was no more effective than placebo for people so obese they're suffering liver failure. However they did find benefits on biopsy in younger patients. So the study shows that it is still beneficial. Although the obvious solution for those people would be to lose weight.
UDCA is so safe it is regularly prescribed to PREGNANT WOMEN for cholestasis of pregnancy, a fairly common condition. Compare that to Accutane, which required the erection of an entire legal/regulatory/medical infrastructure to ensure there was no possibility of a pregnant woman ever taking a single pill. That should tell you everything you need to know.
I don't advocate handing out UDCA like candy, but I'd be curious as to what kind of reviews it'd get if it were an OTC supplement sold on Amazon. I suspect improved liver function has a broad range of applications.
1 person likes this

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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Joseph, you are right about what you say, UDCA is extremely safe. In fact it only lists very few potential side effects most of which are only to occur in people of old age and with a severly damaged digestive system. However, you can't deny that I have posted links to studies that pointed to the fact that higher doses of UDCA are not the standard protocoll and that there may be potential risks associated with taking UDCA at a higher dose.

I like to play it save, I mean it is working for me. At the same time I would like to point out that detoxing the liver is a slow process that needs time, so why not stick with the standard protocoll? For me it took a little less than 2 weeks to really feel the effects of UDCA, after that you just role with it. I don't see any reason to why to go on a high dosage instead I would recommend trying other ways to support the detox process while taking UDCA to get the most out of it.

Edited by Believe

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Joseph, you are right about what you say, UDCA is extremely safe.

Joseph wants a three-day party, and he definitely does not want to pay the fiddler.

PSC people experience subjective quality of life improvements from UDCA but die faster. Their subjective quality of life improves because UDCA assists liver function and is generally anti-inflammatory. We already know this. So why do they die faster?
To understand that, you need a basic understanding of liver function and the nature of PSC. PSC is a blockage of the intra-hepatic bile ducts, NOT a malfunction of the hepatocytes. PSC causes lakes of bile to form in the liver, destroying it. Obviously UDCA flows through the liver and contributes to the size of those lakes, thus accelerating mortality.
This is NOT an indictment of UDCA. It is working as intended. The problem is that PSC is a death sentence.
The other study just points out that UDCA was no more effective than placebo for people so obese they're suffering liver failure. However they did find benefits on biopsy in younger patients. So the study shows that it is still beneficial. Although the obvious solution for those people would be to lose weight.

You know, I wondered why it took you so long to come to the defence of your beloved UDCA; I'm not going to lie and say: I had no inkling of what you might be up to. More to come on this.


"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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A needless moderation is the hobgoblin of tiny minds. I followed the reasonable moderation practice, and when I finally doubled or tripled my UDCA dosage, I gained a level. The many months I spent at a subtherapeutic dosage were pure loss.
When the cost is zero, increase the quantity until the marginal utility is zero.
I HAVE seen published studies on very high dosage UDCA. It was still safe, but there was no marginal utility past the 1.5-3g / day range. Therefore 1.5-3g per day is the therapeutic dose and the correct dose, and there is no reason to take any other quantity.
"However, you can't deny that I have posted links to studies that pointed to the fact that higher doses of UDCA are not the standard protocoll and that there may be potential risks associated with taking UDCA at a higher dose. "
I did not see anything about high vs low dose in the links you posted. And I saw only one risk - not a potential risk, an actual risk; not a risk, but a certainty - that UDCA will kill people with PSC faster. This is perfectly logical and expected, since PSC kills by forming lakes of bile in the liver, and therefore increased bile flow will kill them faster.
"I like to play it save, I mean it is working for me."
In other words, you like to leave money/health on the table for purely irrational reasons. I don't.
"At the same time I would like to point out that detoxing the liver is a slow process that needs time, "
Unsupported assertion.
"so why not stick with the standard protocoll? "
1.5-3g / d is the standard protocol.
I have an entire drawer full of supplements I haven't tried because I'm too risk averse. The risk/reward profile on high-dose UDCA is ridiculously favorable. I could make a much stronger argument for not supplementing with Vitamin D or practically any of the other supplements or foods recommended here.

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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Just to ensure my memory is correct, I scanned through all the papers linked on Wikipedia and a few from Google. I was essentially correct. 10-15mg/d is the standard standard dose, which ranges up to 1.2 g/ d for an 80kg male such as myself. However, for intrahepatic cholestasis of pregnancy, standard doses range up to 2g /d.
More importantly, much higher doses have been tested with no bad effects, except for the following case:
1. When the intra or extrahepatic bile ducts are blocked: PSC, PBC, biliary atresia, etc.
Which is just DUH. If the pipe is blocked, do not flush the toilet. It will overflow and then bad things.
The other negative effect report(s?) were not from human trials, but stuff like exposing cells to UDCA. And even those studies were overwhelmingly positive.
Therefore, since Accutane is chemical cholestasis, not bile duct obstruction, UDCA is totally safe for us. And if UDCA is not safe for you; good luck, you're going to need a liver transplant.
So feel free to ramp dosage even from 2g to 3g, but be skeptical that there will be any marginal utility beyond that point.
The stupid thing is that lots of people see adverse effects reports FROM BLOCKED BILE DUCTS and therefore take massively subtherapeutic doses, leaving money/health/lifespan on the table. RTFP.
The ridiculous thing is that UDCA is so good for you there is even a DEBATE about whether people with BLOCKED BILE DUCTS should STILL take it.
Links:
I also saw that a major reason UDCA is not used long term is because it is so expensive. Ridiculous. It has been part of Chinese medicine for 1000 years and should not be patentable.
I pay RMB 150 for a box of 20 bottles of 30 50mg pills. Each bottle is 1.5g. 20 bottles is 30 grams. RMB 150 = $25 USD. So I am paying $1.2 / g, or about $2 per day for roughly 40 pills / 2 grams.
Given that without UDCA my utmost personal best would be easy part time work, preferably from home, whereas with high dose UDCA I can work a reasonably challenging full time job, this is a no brainer for me.
So I'm curious to know what you guys are paying.


---

Oh, an additional pointer that may be useful:

I don't precisely meter my UDCA dosage. Instead, I always take it with food, so it can fulfill its fat digestive function. This also creates a dilutive buffer to prevent any gastro upset.

My feedback metric is simply stool quality and color. The less I go, the better formed, the darker, the better. I go every few days now, unless I'm pulling an all nighter. Had to do two all nighters this week for work, and I handled it no problem. Gold star for me.


Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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A needless moderation is the hobgoblin of tiny minds. I followed the reasonable moderation practice, and when I finally doubled or tripled my UDCA dosage, I gained a level. The many months I spent at a subtherapeutic dosage were pure loss.
When the cost is zero, increase the quantity until the marginal utility is zero.
I HAVE seen published studies on very high dosage UDCA. It was still safe, but there was no marginal utility past the 1.5-3g / day range. Therefore 1.5-3g per day is the therapeutic dose and the correct dose, and there is no reason to take any other quantity.
"However, you can't deny that I have posted links to studies that pointed to the fact that higher doses of UDCA are not the standard protocoll and that there may be potential risks associated with taking UDCA at a higher dose. "
I did not see anything about high vs low dose in the links you posted. And I saw only one risk - not a potential risk, an actual risk; not a risk, but a certainty - that UDCA will kill people with PSC faster. This is perfectly logical and expected, since PSC kills by forming lakes of bile in the liver, and therefore increased bile flow will kill them faster.
"I like to play it save, I mean it is working for me."
In other words, you like to leave money/health on the table for purely irrational reasons. I don't.
"At the same time I would like to point out that detoxing the liver is a slow process that needs time, "
Unsupported assertion.
"so why not stick with the standard protocoll? "
1.5-3g / d is the standard protocol.
I have an entire drawer full of supplements I haven't tried because I'm too risk averse. The risk/reward profile on high-dose UDCA is ridiculously favorable. I could make a much stronger argument for not supplementing with Vitamin D or practically any of the other supplements or foods recommended here.

So you did not ramp up your intake from the get-go either. However, what you write sounds like you recommend anybody to go all in at a high dose without the supervision of a doctor, which I neither deem necessary for a start and just to test it out at a low dose. But everybody reacts differently so don't be negligent.

Especially if you take UDCA without the supervision from a MD, you should definitely start slow. I don't have any side effects personally, but have come across a few reports from people who did not tolerate UDCA very well at all.

The standard protocoll in Germany is to give patients who are at a normal weight 13-15 mg/kg/day over the course of 6 to 24 months as I have posted before. Depending on your weight you may end up taking 2 g/day.

You are right that cost is a factor. For UDCA produced in Germany you pay about 75 € for 50 g.

Edited by Believe

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You know, I wondered why it took you so long to come to the defense of your beloved UDCA; I'm not going to lie and say: I had no inkling of what you might be up to. Alright, to begin with you are accusing the lead doctor running the study of rigorously and premeditatedly expediting his patients’ death by not following previously established dosing determinations set by the FDA; and, I’m not even making mention of the, no doubt, unwilling patients requiring earlier serious intervention, and, or, transplants when donors are generally scarce. If that doesn’t constitute negligence, I don’t know what does?

You twit, he said they were surprised because the results contravened the results garnered previously. You know what else is a death sentence – life is. “The disease progresses slowly…” were the words used. So why act hastily, Dr. Death? The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved a UDCA dose of 13-15 mg/kg/day for patients with primary biliary cirrhosis. I wonder why the FDA set a modest dose. They probably have some sort of petty grievance about NOT WANTING TO KILL PEOPLE with carnivore bile. Obviously, previous recommendations were a farce designed to ratchet-up excitement and $. My favorite part is when they talk about the “paradoxical” nature of the results. I will tell you what is paradoxical: using really strong bile to clear other bile when evacuation routes are subpar. Also in some cases of medicating they combine concurrent use of cholestyramine and ursodeoxycholic acid to reduce the bioavailability of UDCA. I wonder why (rhetoric)? Binding to albumin is probably why UDCA placental passage does not occur.

Also intrahepatic cholestasis which you lay claim to having (not professionally acknowledged), and you failed to diagnose for years, also includes hepatocyte failure due to cholestasis. The nomenclature can refer to toxic bile acid build-up causing injury to hepatocytes or biliary tree damage, or both at once. Have you had a professional rule out the latter? My point is there really such a difference considering the dangers (rhetoric)?

You presupposed, like you usually do, that the subjects in the second article were so obese; they were “suffering liver failure.” Pull the other one Joe. The wording used was “mildly overweight males.” It helped them a little, but was comparable to placebo for the majority. So, not worth the trouble is the take-away point. Please, use this to bring yourself up to speed: “Furthermore, some patients with NASH are not obese, do not have diabetes, and have normal blood cholesterol and lipids. NASH can occur without any apparent risk factor and can even occur in children. Thus, NASH is not simply obesity that affects the liver.”

You know Joseph, I think I will fold. Send me a box of the good stuff and while you are at it, please include a medium sized carnivore – preferably a bear. I want to raise my own UDCA, when my batch runs out. The check is in the mail.

Edited by camaroz28

"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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13-15 mg/kg/day is already a high dose, by my definition. You're certainly taking a lot of pills. Some people will just dose half a gram once or twice a week because they're scared of side effects reported for those with blocked bile ducts. Or take something too low like half a gram a day.
I'm fine with starting at 13-15 mg/kg/day. If you have an adverse reaction, obviously stop. If you see no positive change after a few days, maybe you don't need UDCA. If you see positive change, try up to 3g/d.
I think the impact of UDCA should be dramatic and quick. Whether it's digestive or insufficient liver filtration of blood, it shouldn't take an extended period to show benefit. The long term effect of UDCA rebuilding the liver won't occur immediately, but UDCA is also synthetic bile, so the benefits of having bile for blood detoxification will be immediate (as they were for me), and the anti-inflammatory effects should only take a day or two at most to reach the digestive tract.
But if you lowball the dose, it's harder to tell. That's why I'd prefer starting at 2g/d. You'll get a definite yes/no answer. If after 3 days your life isn't changed, it's not your magic bullet. Maybe still helpful, but not a game-changer.
I haven't heard of ANY side effect that would require monitoring from an MD to detect.
Also, 180 lbs / 81 kilos is my normal body weight, which I'm coming back towards now, but still haven't hit. Stands to reason that you'd use the amount dictated by your frame, even if you'd wasted away due to Accutane sides.
"You are right that cost is a factor. For UDCA produced in Germany you pay about 75 € for 50 g."
How is this a problem? It's $1 USD per gram, or $2/day for 2 grams/d. You can't afford $60/month? Maybe it's not doing much for you then.

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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Lol cost is not so much a factor for me but the insurance companies who often times don't want to support taking UDCA long-term.

I take 500mg pills, so just three pills per day.



You know, I wondered why it took you so long to come to the defense of your beloved UDCA; I'm not going to lie and say: I had no inkling of what you might be up to. Alright, to begin with you are accusing the lead doctor running the study of rigorously and premeditatedly expediting his patients’ death by not following previously established dosing determinations set by the FDA; and, I’m not even making mention of the, no doubt, unwilling patients requiring earlier serious intervention, and, or, transplants when donors are generally scarce. If that doesn’t constitute negligence, I don’t know what does?

You twit, he said they were surprised because the results contravened the results garnered previously. You know what else is a death sentence – life is. “The disease progresses slowly…” were the words used. So why act hastily, Dr. Death? The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved a UDCA dose of 13-15 mg/kg/day for patients with primary biliary cirrhosis. I wonder why the FDA set a modest dose. They probably have some sort of petty grievance about NOT WANTING TO KILL PEOPLE with carnivore bile. Obviously, previous recommendations were a farce designed to ratchet-up excitement and $. My favorite part is when they talk about the “paradoxical” nature of the results. I will tell you what is paradoxical: using really strong bile to clear other bile when evacuation routes are subpar. Also in some cases of medicating they combine concurrent use of cholestyramine and ursodeoxycholic acid to reduce the bioavailability of UDCA. I wonder why (rhetoric)? Binding to albumin is probably why UDCA placental passage does not occur.

Also intrahepatic cholestasis which you lay claim to having (not professionally acknowledged), and you failed to diagnose for years, also includes hepatocyte failure due to cholestasis. The nomenclature can refer to toxic bile acid build-up causing injury to hepatocytes or biliary tree damage, or both at once. Have you had a professional rule out the latter? My point is there really such a difference considering the dangers (rhetoric)?

You presupposed, like you usually do, that the subjects in the second article were so obese; they were “suffering liver failure.” Pull the other one Joe. The wording used was “mildly overweight males.” It helped them a little, but was comparable to placebo for the majority. So, not worth the trouble is the take-away point. Please, use this to bring yourself up to speed: “Furthermore, some patients with NASH are not obese, do not have diabetes, and have normal blood cholesterol and lipids. NASH can occur without any apparent risk factor and can even occur in children. Thus, NASH is not simply obesity that affects the liver.”

You know Joseph, I think I will fold. Send me a box of the good stuff and while you are at it, please include a medium sized carnivore – preferably a bear. I want to raise my own UDCA, when my batch runs out. The check is in the mail.

What do you recommend as an alternative to detox the liver? So far I have only gotten similar - sometimes even better - results by doing a combination of liver flushing and colon hydro theraphy.

Edited by Believe

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More importantly, much higher doses have been tested with no bad effects, except for the following case:
1. When the intra or extrahepatic bile ducts are blocked: PSC, PBC, biliary atresia, etc.
Which is just DUH. If the pipe is blocked, do not flush the toilet. It will overflow and then bad things.

In the case you claim to have (doubt you do; just clutching at straws) you haven't even dropped your little parcel into the toilet yet for you to be concerned about plumbing. That is the point, it hasn't even cleared the cell and you want to throw more in there without knowing the extent of the damage. It sounds about right. Again, it has taken you years to get here?


"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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" to begin with you are accusing the lead doctor running the study of rigorously and premeditatedly expediting his patients’ death by not following previously established dosing determinations set by the FDA"
Nope, you're lying, or quote the refernce.
"So why act hastily, Dr. Death? "
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I recommend UDCA for people with blocked bile ducts. I have no idea how you came by that impression, since I repeatedly pointed out that this is a terrible idea.
" The nomenclature can refer to toxic bile acid build-up causing injury to hepatocytes or biliary tree damage, or both at once. Have you had a professional rule out the latter?"
Of course. Ultrasound and blood tests. if I had biliary tree damage taking UDCA would shorten my lifespan, as I have repeatedly pointed out.
"The wording used was “mildly overweight males.” It helped them a little, but was comparable to placebo for the majority."
In America, mildly overweight is not mildly overweight. Anyhow obesity induced liver failure is really SAD induced liver failure, not something UDCA can solve. It doesn't affect the point either way, so I didn't go into it.
As far as I can tell, your only useful point is that I might be hurting myself if my biliary tree is damaged. Feel free to enlighten me if you have anything else useful to say.
1 person likes this

Accutane - Brief low-dose course ~9 years ago for ~4 months. Liver monitored, no sides.
Symptoms: Gradual onset of symptoms, peaking ~5 years ago. Extreme IBS, lost ability to eat almost everything, unable to work for 4 years. IBD diagnosis might've been possible, but avoided doctors and the prescription meds route, going for diet and supplements instead. Thought it was regular IBS, didn't realize it was Accutane until already had avoided the IBD diagnosis. Decided going back to hell just to get the diagnosis wasn't worth it. Regained enough health to work full time around May-June 2013.
Regimen summary:
Eat only
1. true free range lean chicken breast (expensive)
2. Lean white-tail shrimp (moderately expensive)
3. Glutinous rice gruel (very cheap)
All ad libitum, minimum 150g shrimp/d.
Supplements:
1. Blue Ice CLO / Butter Oil blend
2. Udca ~1-3g /d
3. Source Naturals Essential enzymes 2x per meal
4. Symbiotics Colostrum ~1/8 scoop per meal
5. Cycled topical testosterone cream
6. Topical ACV, tea tree oil (morning) and benzoyle peroxide 10% (night)
Zeitgeibers:
1. Aim to nap every 3 hours for 20 minutes
2. Match light exposure to sunrise, sunset
3. Match meals to sun


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chico what specific foods cause this retinol reaction, and which do not? i'm skeptical but open to convincing.

For example, shrimp has 4% vit A RDA and yet causes no ill effects for me.

Regardless of the side effect you have if you take retinol post accutane it will aggravate it.

I have hard evidence the problem extends way beyond this. On my second course of Accutane my doctor prescribed 60mgs a day - that was double my first dose. At that second dosage, I couldn't even leave the house because the entire portion of my chin area was scabbing up and bleeding. I went through the extreme sensitivity to food issue for about 3 years after the crash with beta-carotene (the body uses only what it needs is more bullshit).

When the sensitivity issue passed I became incredibly intrigued. I began experimenting based on the notions of perhaps resetting receptor expression (androgen, RAR, retinoid X, etc). Well guess what, at doses of 100mgs+ of brand name Accutane; I had no classic signs whatsoever. I even had nocturnal erections on that dose, which I don’t even have when I am clean. I hope you finally concede that things change, but the condition persists unwaveringly.

chico what specific foods cause this retinol reaction, and which do not? i'm skeptical but open to convincing.

For example, shrimp has 4% vit A RDA and yet causes no ill effects for me.

Regardless of the side effect you have if you take retinol post accutane it will aggravate it.

I have hard evidence the problem extends way beyond this. On my second course of Accutane my doctor prescribed 60mgs a day - that was double my first dose. At that second dosage, I couldn't even leave the house because the entire portion of my chin area was scabbing up and bleeding. I went through the extreme sensitivity to food issue for about 3 years after the crash with beta-carotene (the body uses only what it needs is more bullshit).

When the sensitivity issue passed I became incredibly intrigued. I began experimenting based on the notions of perhaps resetting receptor expression (androgen, RAR, retinoid X, etc). Well guess what, at doses of 100mgs+ of brand name Accutane; I had no classic signs whatsoever. I even had nocturnal erections on that dose, which I don’t even have when I am clean. I hope you finally concede that things change, but the condition persists unwaveringly.

I have a story of my own, and this is the truth unabated. After i went off accutane the first time i developed a skin condition over my cheeks and temples, my skin grew much quicker in these areas, it would shed uncontrollably, now i had no idea what it was, at 18 years old i never even thought it could be accutane that was responsible, i didn't put the pieces together or anything. After a couple of years i started travelling around the country paying to see private consultant dermatologist's because i was so afraid of what was happening to my skin. I was first diagnosed with a fungal infection of the skin and put on months of oral anti fungals, then i was diagnosed with seb derm, psoriasis, eczema, etc it went on and on the different dermatologists i saw. I had skin biopsy's done, i had blood tests, i had colonoscopies to check whether it was digestive. I was in a place were i genuinely wanted to die and had no reason left to go on. My skin condition caused scarring of my face in the areas in grew. A doctor prescribed PUVA therapy to me, i've talked about this in the past on here, and my skin cleared up, i also got a good tan from it. The drug they used was psoralen it makes you sensitive to light so the light from the tanning bed can penetrate the skin deeper, and slow down skin cell production. Thats how it works, it stops the skin cell differentiation being so quick, so the condition clears up, and it did.

I was reading a lot on the internet at the time and read accutane also helps PUVA therapy, because it too increases your sensitivity to light. At this stage i still didn't blame accutane for my predicament in the first instance. So this is what i did (and i'll regret this for the rest of my life) i found some accutane on the black market from a european pharmacy, it was from Turkey and it was legit. I bought it and started taking it, going on the sunbed's hoping it would have the same effect. 20 mg once a day. This was for about 2-3 months, i consumed the whole packet of 20mg accutane in that time. As soon as i stopped taking this accutane my nose, forehead, scalp and ears developed exactly the same skin condition that was on my cheeks and temples. Now it's all over my face and has been ever since.

Originally before i took it the second time, the skin on my nose, forehead and scalp was perfect, 100% normal it was just my cheeks and temples that were shedding and scarring, i called it 'the growth' because it was a thick white plaque that would grow only in those areas. But after stopping that 2nd cycle of accutane my whole face and scalp was covered with the same thick white plaque. That second cycle ruined me, and my life has never been the same since.

I'm telling you with 100% certainty, that it was accutane that caused my skin condition, and it is a form of hypervitaminosis A that i have, and most of us exhibit only at varying levels of toxicity and with various different symptoms. It's got absolutely nothing to do with DHT inhibitors, nothing whatsoever.

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It's got absolutely nothing to do with DHT inhibitors, nothing whatsoever.

Yeah that is why you failed to comment at ALL when we were discussing this. Just give to research, please. You don't have this and Joe does not have this. ALSO, I AM SURE THE RESEARCHERS ARE FEVERISHLY TRYING TO WORK OUT HOW TO CLEAR THE RETINOIDS FROM YOUR RECEPTORS. If storage issues are at work, they play a small role, not the principle role as you always allude to. The problem is the drug inhibiting it's own metabolism., amongst other things.

" to begin with you are accusing the lead doctor running the study of rigorously and premeditatedly expediting his patients’ death by not following previously established dosing determinations set by the FDA"
Nope, you're lying, or quote the refernce.
"So why act hastily, Dr. Death? "
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I recommend UDCA for people with blocked bile ducts. I have no idea how you came by that impression, since I repeatedly pointed out that this is a terrible idea.

You don't even know how to use the quote function.

Those TWO articles were way above your comprehension level - clearly. You said that those people in the first article were given UDCA because it would improve their life quality. You implied that they were going to die anyway, so it was fine to proceed. You implied that the doctors knew the end outcome - THEY DID NOT. This all happened recently. AND, YES IT HAS BEEN USED IN CHILD CASES OF DRUG INDUCED INTRAHEPATIC BILIARY TREE DAMAGE. I could show you proof, but I still don’t think you would understand.

You obviously couldn't digest my post, hence this meager offering. Here is some more shocking information: All cholestatsis refers to bile blockage. You cannot escape dealing with blockage. Hence, there are always risks of flooding. Why don’t you officially get diagnosed, instead of thinking Dr. Joe knows best? Next time have more tapioca before trying to dissect basic articles. And, yes your ass would have exploded just like cells do when they can't clear the bile. The toilet or plumbing are other stages of the problem.

Edited by camaroz28

"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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" The nomenclature can refer to toxic bile acid build-up causing injury to hepatocytes or biliary tree damage, or both at once. Have you had a professional rule out the latter?"
Of course. Ultrasound and blood tests. if I had biliary tree damage taking UDCA would shorten my lifespan, as I have repeatedly pointed out.
"The wording used was “mildly overweight males.” It helped them a little, but was comparable to placebo for the majority."
In America, mildly overweight is not mildly overweight. Anyhow obesity induced liver failure is really SAD induced liver failure, not something UDCA can solve. It doesn't affect the point either way, so I didn't go into it.

I can have a field day with you. If you had a real case of drug induced cholestatsis, you would have serious obvious problems including intrahepatic biliary tree obstructions after all these years. You don't have shit; you don't labs proving anything, and you shouldn't be making recommendations to others without proper diagnosis. For the love of God, you only recently came to grips with the dehydration component.

You can't read. Not all the people in the test group were obese, only some were. Again read the literature. You miss the point continuously.

Edited by camaroz28

"Fret not fellas. I've got a 145 IQ, zen pain tolerance, the resilience of a cockroach, the survival instincts of a rat. I'll win; it's what I do. And then I'll help all of you, forgetting no one; I swear."

"I did get some fatigue and minor cramps from taste testing spicy food I was cooking. Even though I didn't swallow and rinsed, the residue got me. This hypersensitivity is annoying."

Thus spoke Joseph Buchignani.


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