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Acne vulgaris, probiotics and the gut-brain-skin axis - back to the future?

probiotic depression

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#1 PriestHollyday

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 02:02 PM



Gut Pathog. 2011 Jan 31;3(1):1.
Acne vulgaris, probiotics and the gut-brain-skin axis - back to the future?
Bowe WP, Logan AC.

Department of Dermatology, State University of New York Downstate Medical Center, Brooklyn, New York, 11203, USA. wpbowe@gmail.com.

ABSTRACT: Over 70 years have passed since dermatologists John H. Stokes and Donald M. Pillsbury first proposed a gastrointestinal mechanism for the overlap between depression, anxiety and skin conditions such as acne. Stokes and Pillsbury hypothesized that emotional states might alter the normal intestinal microflora, increase intestinal permeability and contribute to systemic inflammation. Among the remedies advocated by Stokes and Pillsbury were Lactobacillus acidophilus cultures. Many aspects of this gut-brain-skin unifying theory have recently been validated. The ability of the gut microbiota and oral probiotics to influence systemic inflammation, oxidative stress, glycemic control, tissue lipid content and even mood itself, may have important implications in acne. The intestinal microflora may also provide a twist to the developing diet and acne research. Here we provide a historical perspective to the contemporary investigations and clinical implications of the gut-brain-skin connection in acne.

#2 BeadyB

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:59 PM

So the short version?

Having acne, makes you depressed, being depressed, alters gut flora negatively,this can increase inflamation, thus increasing acne.

Hopefully I read that right.

Sounds like a god-awful cycle. Makes sense though...

When you're going through hell, keep going.

#3 PriestHollyday

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 01:37 PM

Shorter version:

"Bad" nutrition gives you acne, you get dosed with antibiotics and alter your gut flora. The end.

As far as I know, there is no good way (10 species in most probiotics is maybe 1/10 of the total gut bacteria) to fix a damaged gut flora, besides fecal transplant.

Edited by PriestHollyday, 16 March 2011 - 01:43 PM.


#4 BeadyB

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 09:11 AM

AHHHHH "fecal transplant". That phrase sounds just awful. LOL.
When you're going through hell, keep going.

#5 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 01:28 PM

QUOTE (PriestHollyday @ Mar 16 2011, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shorter version:

"Bad" nutrition gives you acne, you get dosed with antibiotics and alter your gut flora. The end.

As far as I know, there is no good way (10 species in most probiotics is maybe 1/10 of the total gut bacteria) to fix a damaged gut flora, besides fecal transplant.


I think the article said psychological stress, alone or in combination with a high fat low fiber diet, alter intestinal permeability somehow contributing to acne.


and yes, i agree this is probably how the whole thing goes down, and even vitamins are included as well.


funny thing is, the exact same cycles could be involved in many diseases. human health comes down to only a few possible independant variables, macronutrients, micronutrients, psychological well being/stress, sunlight and darkness and bacteria.

the practice of science has changed over the years, and the requirements to get funding have constrained the process of hypothesis generation it seems. for example ill refer to the curing of scurvy and the issue of experimental design. to find the cure for scurvy they took a certain number of people with scurvy and collected numerous amounts of popular hypothesis, and the proceeded to try every single one regardless of the method of hypothesis generation, or in other words, the available hypothesis may or may not have been based on any previous science at all. Now compared with todays process of science hypothesis generation is based upon many many single observations that exist and then support a new experiments likelihood of being successful, this is a good way to do things but not the only way as the curing of scurvy was based on which hypothesis led to people with scurvy reducing their symptoms, the result of their study was that the citrus fruit hypothesis of scurvy led to dramatic improvement of patients. I suppose i suggest a similar method for all diseases, and it come down to either all the independant variables which i stated above, but these are only for non genetic diseases. i hope im using that term correctly as my understandning of genetics is comical and perhaps elementary.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 01 April 2011 - 02:03 PM.

#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#6 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (PriestHollyday @ Mar 16 2011, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shorter version:

"Bad" nutrition gives you acne, you get dosed with antibiotics and alter your gut flora. The end.

As far as I know, there is no good way (10 species in most probiotics is maybe 1/10 of the total gut bacteria) to fix a damaged gut flora, besides fecal transplant.



it is possbile that psychological stress which creates intestinal permeability brings the immune system more in contact with bacteria, triggering a more severe type of dysbiosis. in other words, another way of treating dysbiosis is through the nature of the mind.
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#7 joris

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:42 PM

auto basically your saying: Nowadays they dont think out of the box any more. They just tend to study what already has been suggested. Which has its positive sides but also its negatives?

So they found a link between gut and skin? (and between the emotional state and the gut). Because then of course everything thats bad for gut health would be proven to be bad for the skin...
I dont agree with what I posted in the nutrition section anymore. I just think its not worth it. People worrying about food and acne all day in order to improve their life somehow while they are actually just digging a bigger hole for themselfs. The only reason to eat right should be to feel a bit better. Because the chances you will be able to reduce your acne in such an amount that its worth the effort instead of just trying a new topical is astronomicly low.

Basically get a low effort topical like differin or something more harsh if that doesnt work and just start living the life you want to live!
Retired!

#8 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:19 PM

joris-


im not sure what you mean by out of the box, perhaps you mean any old random guess rathe r then following a specific procedure. but the goal today is to have a good argument or reason to conduct an experiment, and a sound scientific basis which accounts for every ounce of known evidence on a particular phenomena, providing a very strong inductive argument. it is a matter of probability of a successful outcome of the experiment, as well as the goal of finding ever more precise direct mechanisms or a reductionistic "cause" of a disease, or the ultimate why. Which is sometimes expected to be one broken part, but after reading more studies you can see a disease as many broken parts. or many multiple causes, some contributing more to the dysfunction then others. Its almost better to think in terms of diseases "states" and an entire picture or arrangment of molecules/cells/proteins/substances/ or whatever.

so now think about taking the reasons why people improved in scurvy symptoms by eating citrus fruits, this answer has since been more precise and refined into isolating vitamin c as the main contributing factor.

in proposing the citrus hypothesis as far as i am aware, someone simply said, "i think this might work". there may not have been too much scientific reasoning about it, except not as we think of how science is done today. perhaps they did make some observations about people who were out to sea on ships for so long and reasoned the lack of fresh vegetables and fruits may be involved, certainly that is still scientific,as it is reasoned based, testable and not superstitious, but not with the "supposed" degree of precision science has evolved to today.
you could almost think of sciences ever increasing desire for reduction has made the process of finding disease treatments painfully slowing to a snails pace when compared to the methods which scurvy treatment was conducted. the observations had been reduced to whatever they could see in a microscope, rather then looking at high level abstractions such as "citrus fruits". now we can break a citrus fruit into many different kinds of fruits, oranges lemons grapefruits, and even further by their hundreds of chemical makeup. the super general to the super specific. It is good to be specific and have all molecules and cells known, i do believe this is important, but im wondering if it is absolutly necessary, as the scurvy story might suggest. but of course the scurvy story might raise some ethical issues, as modern medicine is very opposed to experimented on sick people as it may result in death, so that is the best reason i see for the gradual movement from mice experiments to in vitro and then finally to in vivo.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 31 March 2011 - 04:31 PM.

#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#9 Guest_Timehealsall_*

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (PriestHollyday @ Mar 16 2011, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shorter version:

"Bad" nutrition gives you acne, you get dosed with antibiotics and alter your gut flora. The end.

As far as I know, there is no good way (10 species in most probiotics is maybe 1/10 of the total gut bacteria) to fix a damaged gut flora, besides fecal transplant.


What? so you are saying that once you take a course of antibiotics, there is no way to regain the good bacteria and fix the gut flora??



#10 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:56 PM

Here is the entire article

http://www.gutpathog...m/content/3/1/1
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#11 joris

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 02:17 AM

With out of the box I meant not in the current mindset of how things work. Not the current hypothesis/theory. even if they have reason to believe a different hyphotesis might play a role , it will take a lot of time to even start testing it.

ty for the full article. How to get the full article on medline or pubmed?? Do you need to be in some kind of library or something?
I dont agree with what I posted in the nutrition section anymore. I just think its not worth it. People worrying about food and acne all day in order to improve their life somehow while they are actually just digging a bigger hole for themselfs. The only reason to eat right should be to feel a bit better. Because the chances you will be able to reduce your acne in such an amount that its worth the effort instead of just trying a new topical is astronomicly low.

Basically get a low effort topical like differin or something more harsh if that doesnt work and just start living the life you want to live!
Retired!

#12 PriestHollyday

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:16 AM

QUOTE (Timehealsall @ Mar 31 2011, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (PriestHollyday @ Mar 16 2011, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shorter version:

"Bad" nutrition gives you acne, you get dosed with antibiotics and alter your gut flora. The end.

As far as I know, there is no good way (10 species in most probiotics is maybe 1/10 of the total gut bacteria) to fix a damaged gut flora, besides fecal transplant.


What? so you are saying that once you take a course of antibiotics, there is no way to regain the good bacteria and fix the gut flora??


I currently don't know of a mechanism that would allow a total repopulation of the gut flora.

AutonomousOne1980: Indeed the article talks about the mind connection too but I don't think power of negative thinking can have such a devastating impact on the gut flora compared to antibiotics.

#13 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE
(joris ƒ˜(amused.gifƒ˜)(ƒŽ^_^)ƒŽ @ Apr 1 2011, 03:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With out of the box I meant not in the current mindset of how things work. Not the current hypothesis/theory. even if they have reason to believe a different hyphotesis might play a role , it will take a lot of time to even start testing it.

ty for the full article. How to get the full article on medline or pubmed?? Do you need to be in some kind of library or something?



-i just happened to find the entire article by chance i guess. But many articles and studys can only be veiwed by purchasing them though.


-OH, "out of the box" you mean people dont come up with super wild hypothesis that cannot be supported by the evidence, such as acne is caused by dirty pillows. we might instantly see something like this as an improbable major contribution to acne. previous scientific knowledge would help us develop an hypothesis or theory about acne, that is more benefical and precise. The current scientific process is somewhat limited to observations done by other scientists, or so it seems to me it is limited and enhanced at the same time. limited by the chance that you would base your reasoning on someone elses flawed result,measurement or conclusion.

what i was saying before is that the methods of doing science has changed a bit. I think that science today is NOT out of the box as far is it comes to our ideas about how science is done or can be done or should or could be done. I believe to some degree, people are taught how to do science. where science and philosophy have been seperated a bit too far from each other. For instance, why not instead study a persons entire life and relationship/social profile and a psychological profile and compare to another healthy person to study a disease. rarely is a plethora or information like this ever attempted at, science can be limited by what it is able to observe. how does any scientist know what type of history of emotional events prior to acne onset? they really do not have access to this data. so my question is why should we assume it is irrelevent? not that any one is assuming that, but the advancment of science is what interests me. Our methods of studying things are limited, as are the results.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 01 April 2011 - 02:50 PM.

#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#14 Weelassie1984

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:47 AM

I am currently on "the right" probiotics (Lactobacillus acidophilus + Bifidobacterium lactis). I have been taking them for 1,5 week, so a haven't seen results yet, but I'll let you know!

Edited by Weelassie1984, 01 May 2011 - 04:52 AM.


#15 sweedy

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 08:12 AM

That was a very interesting article. I'm absolutely certain that the cause of acne lies in the gut flora. But I don't think mental problems is the major factor since I've met very happy and social people who still have acne. The cause has probably to do with overuse of antibiotics. I myself started to get acne when I had to go on several courses of antibiotics due to an infection. And I've seen several friends and relatives who started to get some acne after having been on antibiotics.

But the question is. How do we restore the gut flora? Is fecal bacteriotherapy the only way or can just supplementing with probiotics work? Damn, I wish more research were put into this.