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#81 Roller

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:32 PM

Hey Sarah. I'm curious. Did you ever do a test for PH Balance on the products you've used?

I'm a guy and I have a "collection" of skin care products myself. Almost as if it was a hobby, when it shouldn't be. Sure there are products that work, but you have to experiment them by giving them enough time to do their work. I find it nearly impossible to do that with "all" the products I have and they simply stay in my collection. Sometimes I don't even realize I bought the damn thing in the first place. On top of that, you are using so many products at the same time, you don't know which one is working or which one could be undermining another product.

#82 Roller

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 02:01 AM

oh and have you ever tried baking soda mask?

for moisterizing do u prefer tamanu or emu oil ?

#83 Vanbelle

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 03:14 AM

.

Edited by Vanbelle, 20 December 2011 - 06:50 PM.


#84 Roller

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 05:12 AM

Hey Sarah. Thanks for the response. Seems like I can count on you to make late night long posts smile.gif.

Since you've tried so many products, I thought it was important to ask you if ever did a ph balance test on the products you've used because knowing the actual PH of a product can sort of explain why a product is working the way it is or why it might break you out.

Here's a thread i checked out a long time ago. I'm not sure if you've got a chance to read it or perhaps you already know about the details.

http://www.acne.org/...t....html&st=20

I wouldn't count on product labeled "ph balanced" simply because its a vague term. I think its important to know the actual PH to see if a product is more acidic or alkaline. The thread goes into detail regarding this. Paula's Choice's site does a good job in giving you the actual PH number of their products.


I just realized from the chart that Baking Soda is akaline, which is probably why you experienced inflammation and irratation. I have no experience with baking soda, which is why i asked. I was recommended. Now that I know that its akaline, i would have to be more cautious if i do decide to try it. Perhaps finish with a much more acidic serum when im done.

pH 1 = Battery acid
pH 1.5 -2 = gastric (stomach) acid
pH 2 = lemon juice
pH 2.5 = cola soft drinks
pH 3 = vinegar
ph 3.5 = orange juice
pH 4.6-5.5 = healthy skin (and recommended pH range for your cleanser, for best skin health)
pH 5.5 = rainwater (pure water, when exposed to the atmosphere, will take in carbon dioxide, changing its pH)
pH 6.5 = milk
pH 6.5 – 7.4 = healthy saliva
pH 7 = pure distilled water - (This is neutral pH, neither acid nor base)
pH 7.35 – 7.45 = human blood
pH 8.5 = baking soda (damaging to skin's acid mantle)
pH 9 = seawater
pH 9.0-10.0 = hand soap, detergents (very damaging to acid mantle)
pH 10.5 = Milk of Magnesia
pH 11.5 = household ammonia
pH 12.5 = household bleach
pH 13 = lye (sodium hydroxide, or Draino)(Alkaline or Base extreme)

I have no experience with tamanu oil, but I just ordered a bottle on Amazon an hour ago. I'll let you know how it goes smile.gif. I've just read briefly somewhere that emu oil does clog pores, so I'll take your word for it. One oil at a time smile.gif

Regarding accutane.. what were your daily dosages by the way? You also said you're a habitual picker? Naughty hands. You gotta give the drug a chance to do its miracle work!

#85 Vanbelle

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:41 PM

QUOTE (Roller @ Aug 21 2011, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Sarah. Thanks for the response. Seems like I can count on you to make late night long posts smile.gif.

Since you've tried so many products, I thought it was important to ask you if ever did a ph balance test on the products you've used because knowing the actual PH of a product can sort of explain why a product is working the way it is or why it might break you out.

Here's a thread i checked out a long time ago. I'm not sure if you've got a chance to read it or perhaps you already know about the details.

http://www.acne.org/...t....html&st=20

I wouldn't count on product labeled "ph balanced" simply because its a vague term. I think its important to know the actual PH to see if a product is more acidic or alkaline. The thread goes into detail regarding this. Paula's Choice's site does a good job in giving you the actual PH number of their products.


I just realized from the chart that Baking Soda is akaline, which is probably why you experienced inflammation and irratation. I have no experience with baking soda, which is why i asked. I was recommended. Now that I know that its akaline, i would have to be more cautious if i do decide to try it. Perhaps finish with a much more acidic serum when im done.

pH 1 = Battery acid
pH 1.5 -2 = gastric (stomach) acid
pH 2 = lemon juice
pH 2.5 = cola soft drinks
pH 3 = vinegar
ph 3.5 = orange juice
pH 4.6-5.5 = healthy skin (and recommended pH range for your cleanser, for best skin health)
pH 5.5 = rainwater (pure water, when exposed to the atmosphere, will take in carbon dioxide, changing its pH)
pH 6.5 = milk
pH 6.5 – 7.4 = healthy saliva
pH 7 = pure distilled water - (This is neutral pH, neither acid nor base)
pH 7.35 – 7.45 = human blood
pH 8.5 = baking soda (damaging to skin's acid mantle)
pH 9 = seawater
pH 9.0-10.0 = hand soap, detergents (very damaging to acid mantle)
pH 10.5 = Milk of Magnesia
pH 11.5 = household ammonia
pH 12.5 = household bleach
pH 13 = lye (sodium hydroxide, or Draino)(Alkaline or Base extreme)

I have no experience with tamanu oil, but I just ordered a bottle on Amazon an hour ago. I'll let you know how it goes smile.gif. I've just read briefly somewhere that emu oil does clog pores, so I'll take your word for it. One oil at a time smile.gif

Regarding accutane.. what were your daily dosages by the way? You also said you're a habitual picker? Naughty hands. You gotta give the drug a chance to do its miracle work!


Hey Roller,

Yeah I am a habitual picker. Recovering! The worst part about Accutane was the dryness, because that triggers my picking the most (getting flakes off). I did clear up after I stopped taking the pills, and then acne came back. Now I'm trying to stay away from another course of Accutane because of the insane joint pain--as a dancer I fear what the long-term effects on my joints, which is a reality I was able to escape in the first course...maybe not so lucky the second time. I'm pretty sure I was up to 80 mg/day towards the end. I'm not small (5'10", maybe 11"?), so I guess it wasn't a stretch but...still seems like a lot. 80 mg/day is reserved for 250 lb football players and stuff. doubt.gif

So the company I order from lists the exact pH on all their products. I feel pretty dang safe using Garden if Wisdom. If you're a product junkie, don't mean to feed your addiction but I only get my products from there now (unless it's something simple like rolled oats or coconut oil).

Btw, the Garden sells tamanu oil (plus a LOT of other oils) and they have a product with tamanu oil if you're interested: http://www.gardenofw...656/8855822.htm

I've been curious about that product for a while, but trying to stay away. glare.gif

But anyway, baking soda is alkaline. So definitely follow up with a pH balanced serum after using baking soda. You could also use a pH adjuster (sold on Amazon), but I don't think it's worth the money. Just use a serum that will give back to your skin its pH and other things too. Sounds like a good idea.

I was also reading up on the irritation potential of even alkaline tap water and soaps...I'll attach a couple papers I read about pH--you'll like them (or may have already read them). smile.gif

Their research also suggests that p.acnes have an optimum growth potential in a very slight pH change, in comparison to other bacteria which need a higher pH. One talks about the varying effects on "syndets" (synthetic detergents) and soap, while another is a little better in comparing these effects to a control group who cleanses with tap water. It appears that even the control group experienced changes in pH, which took about 2 hours to repair. So there it is, even tap water can hurt you. Lipid contents and hydration contents also decreased in both the tap water group, the syndet group and alkaline soap group (reporting more severe losses respectively). However, the idea that the pH can restore within 2 hours sounds promising. It makes me want to read further on the short term and long term effects of messing with the skin's pH. Still, I personally don't like cleansing with either syndets, soaps or tap water. Maintaining both pH, lipid content and hydration content seems extremely important in letting the skin protect itself.

hifive.gif (high five to teamwork)

PS Personally, I don't see the allure in baking soda really, besides the fact that it's an exfoliant and not full of chemicals (and not a very gentle exfoliant at that--the grains of the baking soda provided the most irritation for me). That's all I hear about it. But what does it really give back to your skin? I don't know. *thinks*



#86 Vanbelle

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:54 PM

QUOTE (Sarah. @ Aug 21 2011, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
However, the idea that the pH can restore within 2 hours sounds promising. It makes me want to read further on the short term and long term effects of messing with the skin's pH. Still, I personally don't like cleansing with either syndets, soaps or tap water. Maintaining both pH, lipid content and hydration content seems extremely important in letting the skin protect itself.


Oh yes, I have read that thread by LionQueen a long time ago. That's where I got the idea that it takes 14 hours to repair the acid mantle, but it seems from the papers I read that there's a real discrepancy on this issue. Maybe LionQueen was referring to severe damages in pH levels. Not sure...

#87 heitea

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:44 PM

Hi!

Wow, you're incredibly intelligent. Your writing is fantastic. It really is. smile.gif

Your insecurities with acne match mine exactly. It's so painful to know that you're missing out on something JUST because of something on your skin, and that the first thing I think about when I start crying or if someone invites me camping is "what about my acne?" Ugh. I pick at mine, too. Pick Pick Pick. It drives me nuts. I do it without even thinking. Do you still do it at all?

I was also wondering--- you're so interested in the ingredients of all the products, but are you still working on the holistic aspect of acne-fighting? Like, the getting sunlight, feeling happy, eating right, etc? I'm not sure if those are the answers to acne (if I was, I'd be clear, eh?), but they may be factors, right? I'm trying it out, anyway...

So, like I said, just your writing style is motivating! You seem amazing, so keep going! biggrin.gif

-Heidi



#88 Vanbelle

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:55 AM

QUOTE (heitea @ Aug 21 2011, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi!

Wow, you're incredibly intelligent. Your writing is fantastic. It really is. smile.gif

Your insecurities with acne match mine exactly. It's so painful to know that you're missing out on something JUST because of something on your skin, and that the first thing I think about when I start crying or if someone invites me camping is "what about my acne?" Ugh. I pick at mine, too. Pick Pick Pick. It drives me nuts. I do it without even thinking. Do you still do it at all?

I was also wondering--- you're so interested in the ingredients of all the products, but are you still working on the holistic aspect of acne-fighting? Like, the getting sunlight, feeling happy, eating right, etc? I'm not sure if those are the answers to acne (if I was, I'd be clear, eh?), but they may be factors, right? I'm trying it out, anyway...

So, like I said, just your writing style is motivating! You seem amazing, so keep going! biggrin.gif

-Heidi


Whoa, thank you so much! blush.gif

I think of picking like my chocolate addiction, lol. I know I need to stay away, it's not very good for me, and it requires constant exertion of willpower. Hey, I love chocolate. But anyway, I just mean I slip up a lot. I tend to scratch at my face without thinking, (checking for bumps) and I slowly scratch at any blemishes. I see a whitehead and the strength to not pop is...really hard. I slip up all the time to be honest. But, I used to be really bad. Like, hours in front of the mirror bad. It's been a really slow progress for me.

I am doing a paleo-type of elimination diet right now, which I talked about a couple posts before I think. Call me crazy but, I think I have serious issues with pork and seafood. I think it's a real trigger for my jawline acne, but I have no idea why. It's just been really consistent--eat pork or seafood, and actives show up right along the jaw a couple days later. Weird right? I can only think of the meat processing usually done on pork, and I'm not sure about seafood. I do know it's a pretty common sensitivity.

And as for feeling happy...okay I haven't really talked about this yet, but around the same time I gave up makeup, was the same time I was thinking about giving up on skincare altogether. I couldn't handle throwing away all my products, but I did toss out a lot. I stopped looking the mirror and went about my business. I stopped caring about how I looked. I didn't fixate on my skin, nothing. I'll attach a progress picture I took a while back to show you what happened. I'm not sure if it was diet, topicals or my mindset, but I have a hunch it was all three. I was just happier when I cared less and it showed on my skin, it really did. I'm a science-type person so I'm still in denial. unsure.gif This summer approached the clearest skin I've seen in years. Ha, I'm even smiling in the picture because I was so happy with the results.

You'll probably tell from my pictures but I am as pale as they come, so I avoid to sun for other reasons. smile.gif But I do try to be happy. I recently started making a conscious effort to get outside without sunscreen every once in a while, because I am severely deficient in Vit D.

Okay Sarah, shut up now. I always write too much. smile.gif

You sound lovely. Can't wait to hear from you!

PS Diet changes and all that, assuming you have the right diet (it can be just as much a search as topicals) can clear you, I absolutely believe it. It's so awesome you're giving it a try. Most people call it phooey. The only thing I think is that, unless you believe in the enzyme theory (that antinutrients in some processed food, seeds and nuts inhibit skin exfoliation by reducing the enzymes responsible for desquamation and exfoliation of the stratum corneum), diet might not save you if your skin doesn't properly exfoliate itself. Either manual or chemical exfoliation (even a gentle apple cider vinegar toner with malic acid) can help. It's partially why I use both salicylic acid and sulfur, because they are both keratolytic treatments for acne. Diet can sometimes (most of the time) do everything else. Good luck.

#89 heitea

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 06:16 AM

Trust me, I was (pretty much AM, considering I've only tried stopping this past week) an hours-picking-at-the-mirror girl. I get out of the shower, and the show begins. I think if I didn't have makeup, I wouldn't do it as much, knowing I'd have a really red face after walking out of the bathroom. It only makes putting makeup on more strenuous and exhausting. Mornings should NOT be like that.

That paleo diet seems so intense and difficult. So, no grains, beans, peanuts, sugar, etc? I'm pretty sure I would starve to death. haha. Well, considering I also don't eat meat tongue.gif lol. For the pork and the seafood, are you buying organic? Seafood is treated pretty nastily in the warehouses, too. The fish pretty much sit in bins with other dead, rotting fish. Not yummy. However, if they're raised and well-handled, fish is a fantastic thing. The pork, too, if it's organic and farm-raised, would probably cause less side-effects, I'm guessing.

I agree with you about diet being such a great way to help overall health, including skin. I think that people, based on the vitamins/nutrients they're deprived of, need all sorts of different diets to achieve and maintain this, though.

Your skin looks really nice in that picture! And you're so pretty, too! Well, if you want to think about the science of things, being happy/content can really alter your body chemistry in a way that your hormones can become more balanced. That can, in turn, help acne. It's probably why your skin was great! I think sleep is important, too. Vitamin D, too, is important for health!
After reading lots of posts on this site, people are so desperate for their acne to go away, that they forget about their health. I haven't seen that on your posts, obviously. You seem like you've got your head on straight. But there's some silly boy who wants to drink his own urine, for example. Ick.

P.S. I'm paler than pale, too. My sisters and I all are. haha. I like pale. I think it's pretty.

#90 Vanbelle

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 06:51 PM

.

Edited by Vanbelle, 20 December 2011 - 06:50 PM.


#91 Roller

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 09:14 PM

Hey Sarah. 80 mg a day is very high. Did you start off that high. Alot of people (mostly in europe), including myself, found great results fairly quick with low dosages (20mg a day.) i'm sure everyone is different, but we can't all be that much different smile.gif. Just something to consider. When I took it, I was about 140-150lbs 5 "10", with bad acne. I'm active in sports and work out constantly. No joint issues for me smile.gif. What kind of dancing do you do? Its good to know you're letting acne get in the way of other things you enjoy.


Baking Soda. Here's the scoop on BS. It is an exfoliant, but a physical exfoliant, not an acidic exfoliant. It has small fine grains that can clean within the pore without clogging the poors. I don't think it really gives anything back to your skin. People rave about it because it helps dry out the acne quickly, but since it is very alkaline.. probably destroys the acid mantle over time. Which is why it is important to follow up with an acidic moisterizer like tamanu oil (ph of 4.)

Garden of wisdom. I'm familiar with it. Sort of a hole in the wall internet shop with unique products. I've ordered mandelic acid for my t-zone area before but it didnt work for me. I'm waiting for the 15% mandelic acid to arrive to give it another shot. I think i was applying it wrong tongue.gif. I'm looking to get rid of freckles and black heads as well as minimize poor size around the area. I hate my t-zone.

I ordered 100% pure Tamanu oil and Camelia oil last night. I'm curious to see which works better for me. I'm using these to help fade my acne scars, which are mild to moderate in some areas.

Im gonna need more time to read those attachments. I went through them briefly, but it seems like i really need to concentrate to make sense of it all smile.gif

#92 Vanbelle

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:32 PM

QUOTE (Roller @ Aug 22 2011, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Sarah. 80 mg a day is very high. Did you start off that high. Alot of people (mostly in europe), including myself, found great results fairly quick with low dosages (20mg a day.) i'm sure everyone is different, but we can't all be that much different smile.gif. Just something to consider. When I took it, I was about 140-150lbs 5 "10", with bad acne. I'm active in sports and work out constantly. No joint issues for me smile.gif. What kind of dancing do you do? Its good to know you're letting acne get in the way of other things you enjoy.


Baking Soda. Here's the scoop on BS. It is an exfoliant, but a physical exfoliant, not an acidic exfoliant. It has small fine grains that can clean within the pore without clogging the poors. I don't think it really gives anything back to your skin. People rave about it because it helps dry out the acne quickly, but since it is very alkaline.. probably destroys the acid mantle over time. Which is why it is important to follow up with an acidic moisterizer like tamanu oil (ph of 4.)

Garden of wisdom. I'm familiar with it. Sort of a hole in the wall internet shop with unique products. I've ordered mandelic acid for my t-zone area before but it didnt work for me. I'm waiting for the 15% mandelic acid to arrive to give it another shot. I think i was applying it wrong tongue.gif. I'm looking to get rid of freckles and black heads as well as minimize poor size around the area. I hate my t-zone.

I ordered 100% pure Tamanu oil and Camelia oil last night. I'm curious to see which works better for me. I'm using these to help fade my acne scars, which are mild to moderate in some areas.

Im gonna need more time to read those attachments. I went through them briefly, but it seems like i really need to concentrate to make sense of it all smile.gif


Despite the fineness of baking soda, can it really exfoliate within the pores? I question that they can get in there. Just my initial thought. I'm also a little drawn back by the fact that it is a manual exfoliant too, because the crystals seem to lack uniformity. I'll attach a photo of the baking soda crystals magnified. It seems like it could easily tear at the skin, which is what I think caused the most irritation...the tiny crystals were just irritating for me. Anyway, that's what I could pull up on it (aside from the billion blogs of stay-at-home moms trying every holistic skincare product).

That's cool you know the Garden. Ok I usually don't try to push people one way or another, but the 15% mandelic, don't do it!!! I had the WORST irritation! Anything that the 15% touched started peeling within a week, not to mention the damage to my face. My palms and fingers were even peeling too! 15% seems like peel-only strength, to be left on for maybe a few minutes. Man, I'm not ever touching mandelic again. And I used the 15% from GoW, if you're wondering. I would just urge anyone to treat that like a peel at first, until they don't see irritation after the first 2-3 weeks. After 1 week to 10 days in that time, my stratum corneum fell off (haha, skincare jokes).

It is a pretty random site, but it really has hundreds of products. So insane. And the people are always very helpful too, if I ever have any questions. I took some progress pics, basically a before and after from going from normal products to the Garden's, and my face was bright and glowing. Their products seem to really agree with me, so yep! There's my pitch.

Hope you like the reads! You seem interested in pH so I hope they help. If anything, they re-validated for me that I should start toning again. Thanks for helping me with that. I got my CoCoBasil toner out (unopened, of course) that I bought from GoW. It has purified water, manuka honey, basil hydrosol and coconut vinegar I believe. Pretty good product. It'll be good to start toning again. Seems like a protective function for the skin, whereas my mind held onto the idea that it might just be more irritating than anything.

Camelia oil? Oooh, exotic. I love new oils. Tell me more. smile.gif

Edited by Sarah., 22 August 2011 - 10:34 PM.


#93 Vanbelle

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:54 PM

I forgot to mention, I think I started at 40 mg/day and worked my way up. That might explain the join paint, just how much I was taking. Oh and,

QUOTE
Its good to know you're letting acne get in the way of other things you enjoy.


Typo or sarcasm?

#94 Roller

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:54 PM

so 15% mandelic acid is that bad huh? Well that's just great. My t-zone is pretty bad and I'm actually looking for something that's going to give me a real deal peal. I just feel that area needs alot of exfoliation to see dramatic improvement. I'm not sure what i bought before (threw away the bottle.) I will have to look into my email records.

Baking soda in dry from is definitely harsh. I'm sure it softens up with water. All the science regarding baking soda tells me its bad for the skin. However, I find alot of positive reviews which makes me really wonder what's going on. I gotta try it at least once just to see.

Camelia oil is used often in Japan for hair, skin, scars, stretch marks. Its a fast absorbing and light moisteriser with long time hydrating benefits....or at least that is the feedback from users. For me, its all about fading my scars. Supposedly, it can penetrate deep into the dermis and act as some sort of filler as it contains plant collagen. Lots of positive feedback so far, but i'll have to see for myself. Tamanu oil is said to be capable of doing the same thing. I'm going to compare both, but stick to one smile.gif

#95 Roller

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:58 PM

Oh. that was definitely a typo my dear. You know what i mean...

#96 Vanbelle

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:59 PM

QUOTE (Roller @ Aug 22 2011, 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so 15% mandelic acid is that bad huh? Well that's just great. My t-zone is pretty bad and I'm actually looking for something that's going to give me a real deal peal. I just feel that area needs alot of exfoliation to see dramatic improvement. I'm not sure what i bought before (threw away the bottle.) I will have to look into my email records.


Yep, it will definitely peel you.

QUOTE
Baking soda in dry from is definitely harsh. I'm sure it softens up with water. All the science regarding baking soda tells me its bad for the skin. However, I find alot of positive reviews which makes me really wonder what's going on. I gotta try it at least once just to see.


I had the same thoughts when I tried it. Had to at least try it from all the raving reviews. It...kind of softens up with water. Didn't feel too soft.

QUOTE
Camelia oil is used often in Japan for hair, skin, scars, stretch marks. Its a fast absorbing and light moisteriser with long time hydrating benefits....or at least that is the feedback from users. For me, its all about fading my scars. Supposedly, it can penetrate deep into the dermis and act as some sort of filler as it contains plant collagen. Lots of positive feedback so far, but i'll have to see for myself. Tamanu oil is said to be capable of doing the same thing. I'm going to compare both, but stick to one smile.gif


I'll have to read up on this! I've only heard of topicals encouraging collagen production, but not be collagen itself. Let me know which one you like better.

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#97 Vanbelle

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:03 PM

QUOTE (Roller @ Aug 22 2011, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh. that was definitely a typo my dear. You know what i mean...


Haha, I was going to say...

#98 Roller

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:07 PM

Sarah. You just brought up something I've been trying to research all weekend about (im sick too so thats all i can pretty much do at the moment.) Can topicals really stimulate collagen production? any scientific articles regarding that?

Seems like you like to do alot of research. if you're up for it, I have a challenge for you smile.gif

#99 Vanbelle

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE (Roller @ Aug 22 2011, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sarah. You just brought up something I've been trying to research all weekend about (im sick too so thats all i can pretty much do at the moment.) Can topicals really stimulate collagen production? any scientific articles regarding that?

Seems like you like to do alot of research. if you're up for it, I have a challenge for you smile.gif


I love research! So you want some help looking into stimulating collagen production? Well my friend, challenge accepted. smile.gif No articles off the top of my head, but from reading around in the past, it seems like collagen is very sensitive to many variables, which can be helpful if trying to upregulate it. I'll look around more this weekend and post what I find. smile.gif

#100 Roller

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 05:37 PM

Hey. i just got my tamanu oil today. Its pretty oily and smells like an ointment lol. Slightly on the thicker side. I smell like a tree right now hahah.

Don't worry, i haven't forgotten about the challenge. I just need to figure out the best way to present it to you.

I really have my doubts about topicals be able to "stimulate" collagen production. From my current understanding of how collagen works, it takes a number of things to trigger it. I'm starting to think this whole collagen thing is more of a marketing ploy.

Retin-A is described as being able to "stimulate" collagen production and reduce fine lines/wrinkes. I've used it before and extensively and I really don't think it stimulates collagen. However, it does thin your skin, so it probably does reduce lines/wrinkles.

Anyways, I'm looking for a deeper solution. Something much more advanced. i'll let you know more in a bit wink.gif

You're still young, beautiful, and wrinkle-free haha. I'm not sure if the subject would even interest you at this point in your life. I don't want to bore. The worst challenge is an uninteresting challenge. This is your log.. keep doing what you need to do. i don't want to flood it with my interests.

Edited by Roller, 24 August 2011 - 05:39 PM.