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#41 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 05:44 AM

QUOTE (Doberwoman @ Aug 27 2004, 03:15 AM)
evigrex:  What I have had explained to me is that you can have normal blood sugar levels sometimes when you are IR because your body goes through a stage of being IR and hyperinsulinaemic at the same time -- ie, the body compensates for the IR by over-producing insulin, so you have apparently normal blood sugar levels but high levels of insulin.  This is not my area of expertise (yes, I am a medical research scientist), so I'm not vouching for the accuracy of this claim, but on the face of it I can't see anything wrong with it.

You also suggested that drugs like metformin may help women because of their anti-androgenic properties -- do you have any data on this?  I've never heard that metformin or similar drugs have antiandrogenic properties (unlike say spironolactone which was not originally intended to be used as an antiandrogen, but was used as such after some men who used it developed breasts and so on)

The fact is that many women who have PCOS report that they are helped by following a low-glycaemic index diet, even before they lose any weight.  Do low GI foods have anti-androgenic properties?

I can understand your frustration in dealing with what you perceive to be the perpertuation of inaccuracies, but your close-minded attitude demonstrates precisely why people don't listen to their doctors in the first place.  Doctors for years told me that my lack of periods, acne, hirsutism, etc, was "normal" for someone of my ethnic background (how a lack of periods in normal weight person in their 20s can be normal... but never mind, I digress) -- most of them were quite arrogant about it, and because they were so adamant that I couldn't understand the slightest thing about my own body (despite the fact that I have a PhD in biochemisty) I ultimately turned off to them.

Ultimately (nearly 10 years later) I was diagnosed with an adrenal disorder.  Well, actually the first endocrinologist diagnosed PCOS, after doing my blood work and the second, after I moved to a new town and so had to find a new endocrinologist, did more blood work and said "adrenal disorder".   So much for doctors knowing everything and so much for "normal"  bb_icon_rolleyes.gif

I explained that before - and it only happens several hours after consuming a high sugar meal. This does NOT alter the results of a fasting blood glucose test or a dextrose challenge test - in fact - if someone who is insulin resistant does a dextrose challenge test their blood glucose levels will be sky high at the 1 and 2 hour mark, and be very low at the 3 hour mark. This is normal. Perhaps you can read my earlier post where I address this.

Yeah - and all anti diabetic medications aside from exogenous insulin will usually cause a drastic reduction in androgens... you can search for the terms "metformin testosterone", "avandia testosterone", etc over at NIH to confirm this.

before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#42 Doberwoman

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 07:56 AM

QUOTE (evigrex @ Aug 27 2004, 04:31 AM)

I explained that before - and it only happens several hours after consuming a high sugar meal. This does NOT alter the results of a fasting blood glucose test or a dextrose challenge test - in fact - if someone who is insulin resistant does a dextrose challenge test their blood glucose levels will be sky high at the 1 and 2 hour mark, and be very low at the 3 hour mark. This is normal. Perhaps you can read my earlier post where I address this.

Yeah - and all anti diabetic medications aside from exogenous insulin will usually cause a drastic reduction in androgens... you can search for the terms "metformin testosterone", "avandia testosterone", etc over at NIH to confirm this.

What did you explain before? What only happens several hours after eating a high sugar meal? Could you point out the post you're referring to rather than having me go through them all and guess which one you meant? Because none of the ones I've read actually address the points I've brought up.

I've done the search you suggested. Granted, I only skimmed, but I couldn't find anything that said that metformin reduced testosterone levels in normal subjects. I did find one that said it reduced testosterone levels in PCOS women (but that fits with the theory that it's the excess insulin that leads to increased testosterone in PCOS women) and another that said that it reduced testosterone levels in obese diabetic men, but not normal weight diabetic men.

I'm still not convinced that metformin or avandia are antiandrogens as their primary mode of action (feel free to quote specific articles if I'm missing them -- as I say, I only skimmed) -- they would appear to have a side effect of reducing testosterone in certain subjects, and that could well be due to the reduced levels of insulin.

#43 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:24 AM

bb_eusa_wall.gif bb_eusa_wall.gif bb_eusa_wall.gif

Why do *I* have to do all the homework here? I'm not the one coming out with theories that are unproven and far fetched.

AGAIN: One of the purposes of insulin is to eliminate blood glucose from the blood stream. To measure for insulin resistance or diabetes, endocrinologists will
test the serum blood glucose level after fasting or after drinking a dextrose solution - if its extremely high that will indicate that muscle and fat cells are "resistant" to accepting blood glucose....This means that the pancreas will in turn over-produce insulin for a prolonged amount of time trying to eliminate blood glucose from the bloodstream - but cell uptake (of glucose) is hampered because of insulin resistance or diabetes. If the test results are in an optimal range, then that would indicate that muslce and fat cells are accepting blood glucose properly, and that insulin is doing its job in eliminating blood glucose. Since insulin exists for the purpose of eliminating blood glucose from the bloodstream, blood glucose and insulin concentrations are always correlated with each other - that is why insulin is rarely, if ever, tested for to screen insulin resistance or diabetes.

Note that I said this test is *always* done after 12 hours of fasting or after consuming a dextrose solution. Because if this test is done at other times, the results may be skewed showing a diabetic person as having a normal concentration of blood glucose. It is common for someone who has a glucose metbaolism disorder to have low to normal serum blood glucose after eating a meal high in sugars. Initially their blood glucose level will be sky high (especially 1 hour after consuming the meal) and their pancreas will produce a normal amount of insulin to eliminate glucose from the bloodstream. However, 2-3 hours afterwards when the pituitary determines that a normal amount of insulin is not doing an efficient job at eliminating blood glucose, it will over-produce insulin in large quantities to remove glucose regardless of where that glucose goes. I have seen this occur with pretty much 100% of subjects with insulin resistance or diabetes.

Now as far as anti-diabetic meds....I'll let you do your own homework there. I'm aware of several studies done on normal, non-diabetic men taking metformin, actos and avandia - and androgen levels were reduced. There are theories out there on why anti-diabetic medications reduce androgens, but none are proven.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#44 Doberwoman

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:44 AM

How is it asking you to do all the homework when I ask you to point out which posts you meant or to actually provide evidence of claims that you make?

And why do you say these theories are far-fetched and unproven? I was under the impression that insulin resistance as the cause of elevated testosterone levels and PCOS was the most accepted theory today. My last endocrinologist certainly accepted this theory -- that was what lead him to do further tests and thus change my original diagnosis from PCOS to adrenal disorder -- he said that most of his "PCOS ladies" were overweight, and that you don't get PCOS without insulin resistance.

What is your background exactly? If you're a medic or endocrinologist, then it would be helpful if you could be a bit less dogmatic (I think we'd be light years ahead of current medical practise if clinicians weren't wedged so firmly up their own arses). And if you're not, then what expertise do you have that enables you to say, "these endocrinologists are putting forward far-fetched and unproven theories and these ones are not"?

#45 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:48 AM

Huh? That first statement was directed more at you. Stating that high insulin levels can exist (aside from post prandially) with normal to low blood glucose levels is absurd and ridiculous. Why don't YOU post proof of this claim...I know you won't find any studies backing that one.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#46 SweetJade1980

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:49 AM

Doberwoman,
Yeah it's true. It's their Insulin Sensitizing action that makes them work as anti-androgens, by reducing the amount of insulin our body utilizes.

I was tested for adrenal disorders too, but continuously came up negative. Although I personally put out a high amount of DHEA, I was dx as PCOS or Insulin Resistant (but women generally produce more of this form of androgen, right?). Insulin Sensitizers (Avandia 2mg) worked better for me than Birth Control, although by only 10 - 15%. I'm sure if I had taken 4mg or even 8mg it would have worked even better. However, I also learned that I was able to reduce my androgens by following a Gluten-Free (my form of low carb) diet, along with some other food avoids. I know other men and women that never got themselves tested, but also find similar or more "strict" diets to work wonders for them as well.

I'm not certain how many adrenal disorders are connected to Insulin Resistance, but you can give it a try. I know that some PCOS women are misdiagnosed as they actually have a Non-Classical Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (LOCAH/NCCAH) disorder. Unfortunately some PCOS women are hypothyroid and NCCAH at the same time. Also, not all women with PCOS seem to be Insulin Resistant according to them, I guess that's why progesterone seems to work wonders for that type. I was actually researching this for someone on the prescription forum and it appears that there are 3 - 5 subtypes of PCOS. I don't fall under the "traditional" type (irregular periods, cystic ovaries), but more so under a few of the subtypes.
http://www.acne.org/...pic=28904&st=30 (page 3)


Here's some of what info I have on the Insulin Resistance, Hyperinsulinemia, Anti-androgen effect:
http://www.acne.org/...showtopic=29231
http://www.acne.org/...showtopic=26936

Glad to see ya on here, take care
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#47 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:53 AM

Jade: again.....stating that lowering insulin is their mode of lowering androgen levels may not be correct. There is no proof whatsoever of that claim, although it has been theorized by many.

And explain this to me: exogenous insulin has no effect whatsoever on androgen levels - yet exogenous insulin reduces postprandial and fasting insulin concentrations and blood glucose drastically. In addition, exo-insulin has receptor affinity for insulin receptors even in cases where endogenous insulin does not. If lowering insulin were indeed the reason for lowered androgen production, you would expect the opposite, no?
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#48 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:58 AM

Certain types of adrenal disorders can easily be connected to impaired glucose metabolism. If excess production of norepinephrine is involved, that would most certainly cause insulin resistance....
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#49 SweetJade1980

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:04 AM

Evigrex,
Right, but not everyone that has acne via adrenal disorders overproduces adrenal hormones. Sometimes it's the ATTEMPT to produce a normal amount that isn't occuring, that can also increase one's androgens. So to be on the safe side, I generally don't link NCCAH to this yet ;-)

You didn't answer her question about just exactly where you field of expertise lies.

I'm glad to see that you are ready to acknowledge the fact that Insulin Sensitizers can have an anti-androgenic effect, but I'm sad to see that you don't quite understand how that is possible. While not everything is true 100% of the time for all cases, for the umpteenth time, Insulin does have the ability to lower your IGFBP-3 and SHBG. Since SHBG is what binds Free Testosterone (what I naturally have too much of), you take something like Birth Control, Exercise (not a huge impact) or an Insulin Sensitizer (certain supps too), and it will INCREASE your SHBG. This is how it works as an anti-androgen, by reducing the amount of Insulin presented in the blood stream.

Bye for now ;-)
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#50 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:13 AM

Why is my background important? I never claimed to be an endo. Human physiology is something that has fascinated me for a long time, and I devoted quite a lot of time studying it while I was in college. Although I didn't end up getting a job in that field, It is still something that I find very interesting.

I've heard you state that before, that insulin can lower SHBG....but there is a lot of conflicting evidence on that. For example...like I stated earlier, exogenous insulin doesn't have an effect on sex hormones from the studies that i've viewed. I have also seen studies showing of men with hypogonadism given exogenous testosterone to raise their androgen levels to physiological levels had an *improvement* in insulin sensitivity....you would think the opposite if increased testosterone automatically means decreased insulin sensitivity.

before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#51 Doberwoman

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:19 AM

QUOTE (evigrex @ Aug 27 2004, 07:35 AM)
Huh? That first statement was directed more at you. Stating that high insulin levels can exist (aside from post prandially) with normal to low blood glucose levels is absurd and ridiculous. Why don't YOU post proof of this claim...I know you won't find any studies backing that one.

Huh yourself. I did another search and it seems to be such a well accepted concept that it's the sort of thing that you find in biochemistry and medical textbooks rather than current research, but I did find several references. Most of them require a subscription, but anyone can access this (and Biochemal Society Transaction is a respected journal, I've published in it myself)

http://www.biochemso.../bst0311152.htm

QUOTE
Insulin resistance is a common pathological state in which target tissues fail to respond properly to normal levels of circulating insulin. Pancreatic b-cells first compensate for peripheral insulin resistance by increasing insulin secretion to maintain euglycaemia.


In other words, you get high insulin levels in the presence of normal blood sugar levels.

Why do you now put in the exception of "post-prandially"? How else are you going to raise blood sugar levels so that you can have a hyperinsulinaemic response if you don't eat????



#52 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:20 AM

Also:

Effects of short term metformin administration on androgens in normal men.

Shegem NS, Nasir AM, Jbour AK, Batieha AM, El-Khateeb MS, Ajlouni KM.

National Center for Diabetes Endocrinology and Genetics, Jordan University Hospital, Amman, Jordan.

OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of metformin on androgens in normal men. METHODS: A total of 12 healthy males volunteered to participate in the study. A blood sample was obtained from each of them and analyzed for the following: Testosterone (total and free), sex hormone binding globulin dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle stimulating hormone. In addition, each participant was subjected to a glucose tolerance test and his insulin level was measured. Metformin 850 mg twice daily for 2-weeks was given to each subject after which the above tests were repeated. A paired t-test was used to assess the statistical significance of any observed differences before and after metformin. RESULTS: After metformin administration, there was a significant reduction in serum level of total testosterone (p=0.0001), free testosterone (P=0.002), and 17 hydroxyprogesterone (p=0.0001). There was also a significant increase in serum level of sex hormone binding globulin (p=0.009) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (P=0.0008). Serum levels of luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone showed no significant changes. Similarly, there were no changes in fasting plasma glucose, fasting serum insulin, weight, or blood pressure. CONCLUSION: Metformin administration was associated with a reduction in total testosterone, free testosterone, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone and an increase in sex hormone binding globulin and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate in normal males. The clinical significance of these findings needs further investigation.

PMID: 12235466 [PubMed - in process


Since anti-diabetics usually have little effect on those with normal glucose metabolism, the men that participated in this study should have had little
change in insulin concentrations. So the reason why metformin is decreasing androgen production in this case isn't so clear.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#53 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:25 AM

Read that again. What the hell do you think the insulin is trying to put in these cells that don't respond properly to normal levels of circulating insulin? Glucose! So since these cells cannot uptake glucose properly, where does that glucose go. N-O-W-H-E-R-E. It stays in the bloodstream until insulin is vastly over-produced....and this process takes 2-3 hours. Don't believe me? Look at data regarding dextrose challenge tests done in those with glucose metabolism disorders. Their blood glucose is SKY HIGH 1 to 2 hours after consuming the dextrose solution, and at 2-3 hours it will drop signifigantly...sometimes to normal to hypo levels.


before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#54 Doberwoman

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:34 AM

Thanks for posting that article -- that wasn't so painful now, was it? wink.gif

edit: reading your response, I think we're talking at cross-purposes -- ie we're saying exactly the same thing, but you are arguing for me to agree with what I've been saying all the way along. Either that or you're an edjit. Either way, I'm getting too irked by this conversation to continue. I'll leave what I wrote earlier before.

Interesting. I wonder why they don't just use metformin as an anti-androgen then like they do spiro? My endo never suggested using metformin for me, as I don't have IR -- but he did prescribe Spironolactone, which is ostensibly a diuretic primarily. I mean, he didn't have to diagnose me with congestive heart failure to prescribe Spiro, so why would he need to find IR to prescribe metformin? Not that it matters, I'm happier now not taking anything. Heaven forbid some other endocrinologist gets his or her paws on me and suggests I take yet more pills.

SweetJade -- I don't think I have IR -- I've had a reasonable diagnosis and lots of tests (and to be honest, I'm grateful to have one less thing wrong with me!). They've found some sort of reduced efficiency in cortisol production, which he proposes is due to having a less effective version of one of the enzymes involved in the pathway. To be honest, I lost interest after he said that the "cure" was more unpleasant than the original disorder, so I contented myself with anti-androgens and then gave the whole thing up and decided to be as happy as I could with my hairy spotty self smile.gif

#55 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:36 AM


Why do you now put in the exception of "post-prandially"? How else are you going to raise blood sugar levels so that you can have a hyperinsulinaemic response if you don't eat????

...

Insulin and glucose always exist regardless of whether someone eats or not. Doctors cannot get a consistent glucose metabolism test result unless one has fasted, and someone who is diabetic or insulin resistant will have elevated blood glucose in that case.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#56 SweetJade1980

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:47 AM

Anyone want to discuss the concept of Insulin Mimickers? That could also explain normal blood glucose, while still having high insulin levels.
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#57 SweetJade1980

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:50 AM

Doberwoman,
Yeah you probably were dx with a form of NCCAH, huh? Glucocorticoids would have been the meds then, right? I understand your hesitancy, but hey if you want to see how effective an Insulin Sensitizer may be for you or to go back on that diet of yours (can you outline it), perhaps your skin would be happir. ;-) Say, have you tried any sort of supplements?

Thanks
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#58 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE (SweetJade1980 @ Aug 27 2004, 08:34 AM)
Anyone want to discuss the concept of Insulin Mimickers? That could also explain normal blood glucose, while still having high insulin levels.

If that were the case, there would be no adverse effects on health. Since endogenous insulin levels are normal, and blood glucose levels are normal....there would be no effect on pancreatic function.

What insulin mimickers are you referring to?
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#59 evigrex

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 02:18 PM

Wow. What a morning without sleep and coffee will do....hope I didn't offend anyone too badly..or in sweetjades case, offend multiple times..

ANYWAY...I was talking with a buddy that I went to college with who is an endo, and he explained to me that there may indeed be a link between high androgen levels and insulin resistance (not necessarily supraphysiological levels of androgens, just very high/normal). He told me that he sees this most frequently with african americans who generally have very high androgen levels, and they suffer from insulin resistance and diabetes at a much greater rate than others with lower or physiological levels of androgens....so. I dunno...i'll see if I can find more concrete info on this
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#60 Catreena

Catreena

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 09:09 AM

Hello again been gone a day or 2 and catching up,

Also ask your friend about American Indians and IR/High androgens. I've read that before too. I'm not full blooded A. Indian but my paternal grandma is. I'm not racist by any means, but things like this being more dominant in a certain race does make me wonder about mixing races if it can endanger people to diseases that they would normally be less suceptible to. Just a thought from my jumbled mind......

Catreena