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evigrex

If you think you're IR and think your IR..

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Huh? That first statement was directed more at you. Stating that high insulin levels can exist (aside from post prandially) with normal to low blood glucose levels is absurd and ridiculous. Why don't YOU post proof of this claim...I know you won't find any studies backing that one.

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Also:

Effects of short term metformin administration on androgens in normal men.

Shegem NS, Nasir AM, Jbour AK, Batieha AM, El-Khateeb MS, Ajlouni KM.

National Center for Diabetes Endocrinology and Genetics, Jordan University Hospital, Amman, Jordan.

OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of metformin on androgens in normal men. METHODS: A total of 12 healthy males volunteered to participate in the study. A blood sample was obtained from each of them and analyzed for the following: Testosterone (total and free), sex hormone binding globulin dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle stimulating hormone. In addition, each participant was subjected to a glucose tolerance test and his insulin level was measured. Metformin 850 mg twice daily for 2-weeks was given to each subject after which the above tests were repeated. A paired t-test was used to assess the statistical significance of any observed differences before and after metformin. RESULTS: After metformin administration, there was a significant reduction in serum level of total testosterone (p=0.0001), free testosterone (P=0.002), and 17 hydroxyprogesterone (p=0.0001). There was also a significant increase in serum level of sex hormone binding globulin (p=0.009) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (P=0.0008). Serum levels of luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone showed no significant changes. Similarly, there were no changes in fasting plasma glucose, fasting serum insulin, weight, or blood pressure. CONCLUSION: Metformin administration was associated with a reduction in total testosterone, free testosterone, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone and an increase in sex hormone binding globulin and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate in normal males. The clinical significance of these findings needs further investigation.

PMID: 12235466 [PubMed - in process

Since anti-diabetics usually have little effect on those with normal glucose metabolism, the men that participated in this study should have had little

change in insulin concentrations. So the reason why metformin is decreasing androgen production in this case isn't so clear.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Read that again. What the hell do you think the insulin is trying to put in these cells that don't respond properly to normal levels of circulating insulin? Glucose! So since these cells cannot uptake glucose properly, where does that glucose go. N-O-W-H-E-R-E. It stays in the bloodstream until insulin is vastly over-produced....and this process takes 2-3 hours. Don't believe me? Look at data regarding dextrose challenge tests done in those with glucose metabolism disorders. Their blood glucose is SKY HIGH 1 to 2 hours after consuming the dextrose solution, and at 2-3 hours it will drop signifigantly...sometimes to normal to hypo levels.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Thanks for posting that article -- that wasn't so painful now, was it? wink.gif

edit: reading your response, I think we're talking at cross-purposes -- ie we're saying exactly the same thing, but you are arguing for me to agree with what I've been saying all the way along. Either that or you're an edjit. Either way, I'm getting too irked by this conversation to continue. I'll leave what I wrote earlier before.

Interesting. I wonder why they don't just use metformin as an anti-androgen then like they do spiro? My endo never suggested using metformin for me, as I don't have IR -- but he did prescribe Spironolactone, which is ostensibly a diuretic primarily. I mean, he didn't have to diagnose me with congestive heart failure to prescribe Spiro, so why would he need to find IR to prescribe metformin? Not that it matters, I'm happier now not taking anything. Heaven forbid some other endocrinologist gets his or her paws on me and suggests I take yet more pills.

SweetJade -- I don't think I have IR -- I've had a reasonable diagnosis and lots of tests (and to be honest, I'm grateful to have one less thing wrong with me!). They've found some sort of reduced efficiency in cortisol production, which he proposes is due to having a less effective version of one of the enzymes involved in the pathway. To be honest, I lost interest after he said that the "cure" was more unpleasant than the original disorder, so I contented myself with anti-androgens and then gave the whole thing up and decided to be as happy as I could with my hairy spotty self smile.gif

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Why do you now put in the exception of "post-prandially"? How else are you going to raise blood sugar levels so that you can have a hyperinsulinaemic response if you don't eat????

...

Insulin and glucose always exist regardless of whether someone eats or not. Doctors cannot get a consistent glucose metabolism test result unless one has fasted, and someone who is diabetic or insulin resistant will have elevated blood glucose in that case.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Anyone want to discuss the concept of Insulin Mimickers? That could also explain normal blood glucose, while still having high insulin levels.


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Doberwoman,

Yeah you probably were dx with a form of NCCAH, huh? Glucocorticoids would have been the meds then, right? I understand your hesitancy, but hey if you want to see how effective an Insulin Sensitizer may be for you or to go back on that diet of yours (can you outline it), perhaps your skin would be happir. ;-) Say, have you tried any sort of supplements?

Thanks


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Anyone want to discuss the concept of Insulin Mimickers? That could also explain normal blood glucose, while still having high insulin levels.

before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Wow. What a morning without sleep and coffee will do....hope I didn't offend anyone too badly..or in sweetjades case, offend multiple times..

ANYWAY...I was talking with a buddy that I went to college with who is an endo, and he explained to me that there may indeed be a link between high androgen levels and insulin resistance (not necessarily supraphysiological levels of androgens, just very high/normal). He told me that he sees this most frequently with african americans who generally have very high androgen levels, and they suffer from insulin resistance and diabetes at a much greater rate than others with lower or physiological levels of androgens....so. I dunno...i'll see if I can find more concrete info on this


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Hello again been gone a day or 2 and catching up,

Also ask your friend about American Indians and IR/High androgens. I've read that before too. I'm not full blooded A. Indian but my paternal grandma is. I'm not racist by any means, but things like this being more dominant in a certain race does make me wonder about mixing races if it can endanger people to diseases that they would normally be less suceptible to. Just a thought from my jumbled mind......

Catreena

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SweetJade,

Sorry I didn't notice your post asking about meds I'm on.

I'm not on anything but low carb diet right now (not the Atkins thing, just cutiing down and changing a few things) , and of course the Keflex for the acne. I go back to my Dr. on Wednesday to find out where to go from here. I hope they stop the Keflex though because long term Antibiotics scare me and I've been on it for 4 months now and my script goes on for several more months. Anyway I have no clue aht my Dr. will choose to do from here.

Catreena

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I don't think using an antibiotic for an extended period of time is necessarily bad, especially if you're using a fairly mild one such as keflex - The ones you want to avoid are the sulfa and pencillins, they are the ones used most frequently in life threatening situations from what I understand.....the nice thing about the penicillins is that antibiotic resistance to them can almost always be overcome with a higher dosage - the same is not true for any other antibiotic.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Sweetjade,

i think you've posted before that you had other skin problems also... like eczema or something.. did changing your diet help with those problems?

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john smith,

regarding your question to sweet jade about diet and other skin probs...

i've been on a number of other message boards (diabetes, PCOS, hirutism(excess body/face hair), excessive sweating) and MANY, MANY people have indicated their symptoms related to these "ailments" were lessened or CURED by diet. in particular, low simple carb, low sugar.

it's taken me 27 years to realize food that comes in a box or can is not "real food" and not very healthy. i'm a firm believer that diet causes many ailments, not just acne. acne is just one way it which your body is letting you know something ain't right. just as getting overly fat, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc.

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Sweetjade,

i think you've posted before that you had other skin problems also... like eczema or something.. did changing your diet help with those problems?


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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