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If you think you're IR and think your IR..

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Evigrex,

I can not explain that to you. However what I do know is that according to the NIH and several other places, 25% - 30% of the U.S. population is Insulin Resistant. Of that percent, 25% have Normal glucose tolerance (like 7% of the population). Also, of those that are Insulin Resistant, only 6% - 8% become Diabetics. (the more "accurate" statistics are posted somewhere on this board). I believe that what was also mentioned somewhere for thse that were Normal & IR, was that they were able to produce enough insulin to result in normal glucose tolerance. Please look at this section:

If you have a mild or moderate form of insulin resistance, blood tests may show normal or high blood glucose and high levels of insulin at the same time.

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/insulinresistance/


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Okay, I just dont understand this one point. A dextrose challenge tests, essentially, how well fat and muscle cells accept blood glucose at 1, 2 and 3 hours after drinking a dextrose solution. Obviously someone who is insulin resistant cannot score well on this test, while someone who is not insulin resistant will have the blood glucose removed from their bloodstream effectively and will score well. Honestly, I think its impossible for someone to test normal on this test and be insulin resistant - how? I mean....this test will determine whether muscle and fat cells are accepting blood glucose, and whether insulin is doing its job in removing glucose from the bloodstream. That is, essentially, a direct test for insulin resistance. And from what ive seen, this test is eerily consistent as long as the subject fasts properly.

Also, hyperglycemia is the cause of insulin resistance. Not hypoglycemia. Although it is possible for someone who is insulin resistant to become hypo _several hours after eating a meal_ (due to the pancreas vastly overproducing insulin once it determines that a "normal" amount is not eliminating the blood glucose from the bloodstream) - insulin resistance always stems from hyperglycemia. Hyperglycemia (and subsequent hyperinsulinonima due to ineffective cell glucose uptake) is the cause for the partial failure of the beta cells of the pancreas, and hyperglycemia is the result of muscle and fat cells not accepting blood glucose.

Oh - I just noticed this - the NIH claims that 25% of those that are insulin resistant are testing normal on blood glucose tests. This is simple to explain: the normal range is very wide, and actually....the upper end of "normal range" is considered insulin resistance. For instance, for a fasting blood glucose test 65-126ng/dl is the normal range. However, anything above 90 is considered the insulin resistant range, and 110-126 is considered pre-diabetic. This is considered "normal" because pancreatic function has not deteriorated to diabetic levels.

..ten four on your last statement...i know im stubborn as a mule sometimes bb_eusa_eh.gif


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Hmm, yeah that makes sense about the hyperglycemia. Why would you produce a ton of insulin without the glucose, (unless you are consuming foods that have proteins that also act like insulin).

That would be a push for the low carb diet as at least 60% of the population consumes a diet that would encourage hyperglycemia, yet only about 25% are Insulin Resistant (talk about genetics). However, when you study the individual suspect foods, you find that some are healthier to eat than others, and others that were assumed healthier, were not so. That's why I don't follow the glycemic index/load but rely more on others testimonies and scientific evidence to control my insulin (and fat) production.

So Hyperglycemia or insulin mimickers is the cause for raised insulin, and in response, Hypoglycemia may result.

Anyway, what else is on your mind?


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Catreena,

You make an excellent point. There are people on here that I know are at risk for acquiring Diabetes as at least one person in their family has this, but they won't change their diets. They say it's because diet has nothing to do with their acne and when they tried one, it didn't work, etc, but OK, what if following a similear diet at least, would help them from becoming a Diabetic in the future? I for one am kinda glad that acne was my particular symptom of something wrong on the inside, not everybody is so...fortunate. Yet all we can do is share our experiences and information and let people do what they are going to do...

BTW, I read something about you being on accutane only to discover that you are IR, is that correct? Mind sharing more about this? I've come across studies that suggests that accutane actually induces a form of Insulin Resistance (raised lipids), while at the same time, battling another form of it (hence the clear skin).

My theory on it was that maybe the people that accutane was linked to having seemingly permanent problems with, were possibly the ones that didn't keep clear skin for very long as they were dealing with an entirely different hormonal situation. Perhaps, these people were like you and I, Insulin Resititant, Hyperinsulinemic or Type II Diabetics.

I don't know, are you clear now?

Thanks


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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sweet jade,

I am not totally clear but much better. Mostly have it on my arms, back and chest more than my face, I am on Keflex though. Tried Bactrim and was allergic, tried Doxycycline and it did no good. I've tried Tetracycline, Cleocin, and numerous topicals including Retin A, that did no good. The only thing that cleared me up completely was Accutane. I did love being on it, the only side effect I didn't like was the dry hair. I know that my hormones were affected by the Accutane because I had no period the whole time I was on it, as soon as I quit taking it they returned. Also I lost 20 pounds and my lipids and triglycerides were great and continued to improve the whole time I was on it. A couple of times my Dr. was concerned that my fasting blood sugar was high, but since it wasn't every time she didn't think too much more about it. I have been off Accutane 1 year and 3 months, my periods are irregular (sometimes 2 in a month), I gained back the weight, have some acne but not cystic thanks to the Keflex, I think. My Dr. at one point wanted to try Steriods but my mom refused, that was when I started the Accutane.

What diet do you do to help with the acne and weight? I have cut carbs to a low point but not so low as to become Keto, that scares me a little. I have never drank soda or ate candy excessively. I love bread and pasta though and that is what I have mostly cut out at this point, and tried to incease veggie intake (EWWWWWWW). I do eat alot of fruit though and thought this might not be good because of sugar intake. If I eat a sandwich I only eat one slice of bread or 1/2 of a bun. No french fries, no battered chicken and such. I would be interested to hear what you are trying that works for you.

I actually have been trying to figure out if high androgen levels might be a big part of my problem, what do you know of this? I thought possibly the Accutane decreased my androgen level somehow which resulted in my weight loss and clear skin. Also because I started my periods so young (10) while I was on the Accutane maybe it restored my body to how it really should have been (I was on it when I was 14) and maybe I really shouldn't have started so young if that makes sense. My mom didn't start until she was 15 and my sister was 12.

I do have an Aunt who I think has PCOS and had to go through all kinds of crap to be able to have children, she does have 2 now. My great grandma died from diabetes when she was in her 50's and I have an uncle who is IDDM. So diabetes does run in my family although distantly.

I don't know I have just been exploring everything I can about all of this and I do know that you can seem to have symptoms of many different things. I really think diet has to be one of my areas to work on, I get plenty of exercise because I play sports in school and work out at home, still the extra weight holds on though. I'm not really into fasting because it makes me feel sick especially with the sports I play, but any other suggestions you have would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Catreena

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ok, i've been trying to follow the back and forth on all of this as best as possible, it's sooo confusing. to make things MORE complicated....

i was researching underam arm odor and blood sugar (i've had a prob with strong underam odor since highschool) i'm dx'd with PCOS. anyhow, i came across a few websites that mentioned HYPOglycemia can cause excessive underam odor/sweating. AND that one can become (not permenantly, just temporarily) HYPOglycemic AFTERa meal, if they've had stomach surgery. ????

i don't really get the hypoglycemia/odor thing after meals thing with the stomach surgery thing. any ideas? i need to look into this more because i have had stomach surgery (gall bladder removal) but my sweating/odor and PCOS were diagnosed a few years before.

i have so many "whammies" against me...i've really messed up my body: 26 years of poor diet, 5 years off and on of antibiotics, two courses of accutane. the past year i've been on a low SIMPLE carb/low sugar/low dairy diet, and i've definitely seen the improvements. i firmly believe the majority of diseases are caused by a poor diet; all the processed and "fake" food. and the medical profession philisophy is disturbing: they treat the SYMPTOM, not the ROOT of the problem.

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Hey, I don't have time to answer all questions right now but...

Catreena,

Get your hormones checked, specifically for high free androgens, luteinizing hormone, and follicle stimulating hormone, SHBG, and oh a few dozen others ;-) Basically Accutane is a DHT Inhibitior (but don't say that outloud), so it's possible that androgens are apart of your problem. If you can see an Endocrinologist mention the Diabetes and the PCOS. It sounds to me that you probably fall in that category with the insulin resistance, irregular periods, wieght increase, acne, and whatever your other symptoms are, but of course a specialist would be able to tell you more definately.

Idealist,

YES it does get to be soo confusing! However I remember a few years back, those that were following the Evil Lectin Free Diet, mentioned that it not only improved their acne, but for some also their dandruff and body order. So, I believe there is some sort of connection, but I don't know what it is.

Bye for now


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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AHHHH *head explodes*


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Idealist,

Did you continue to have these problems while on the Accutane? Just wondering.... it seemed to end all of my problems if only temporaily and I wish there were something I could take that did all the same things without the side effects.

Thanks SweeJade I'll see what I can do smile.gif

Catreena

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What dose/duration were your accutane courses? 1mg/kg seems the standard to minimize relapses, but a lot of docs are paranoid about prescribing that dose.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Evigrex,

I took an alternating dose of 40mg and 80mg. My pills were all 40mg so I took 40mg every morning and then every other day I took 40mg at night. I have heard of taking low doses for maintenence but my Dr. has never mentioned it. At this time she seems intent on antibiotics which kind of scares me that when I really need antibiotics they will not work anymore, but oh well.

Catreena

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Evigrex,

I took an alternating dose of 40mg and 80mg. My pills were all 40mg so I took 40mg every morning and then every other day I took 40mg at night. I have heard of taking low doses for maintenence but my Dr. has never mentioned it. At this time she seems intent on antibiotics which kind of scares me that when I really need antibiotics they will not work anymore, but oh well.

Catreena


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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sweetjade,

lectin?!?!?! geeeeez! something ELSE to worry about. well i looked it up, and of course, it's found in my fav food: beans! i LOVE beans. that's the other major part of my diet. i used to have it as a whole meal with brown rice. now i have a big salad/vegetables as my main meal and the beans (black, adzuki, or lentil usually) as the side dish. i never used to eat as much beans as i have now and i've had the underarm odor prob since hs, but perhaps i will TRY to go lectin free for a week or two to see if it makes a difference.

catreena,

when on accutane i still had the odor prob, but not the excessive sweating b/c i was using Certain Dry. just a word about accutane: i wish i never took it. just recently i realized all my weird health problems started AFTER i started taking accutane.

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Catreena,

Since you are IR, are you taking any medications for this currently?

Idealist,

LOL yeah that "evil" lectin free diet is one of the toughest I know, but it worked for quite a few people. Although, you don't have to follow it specifically, since it eliminates foods that most other diets do too, yet these people did notice a difference in that area. Yet some people found that they could have legumes if they soaked/sprouted them first. So if you really love them, you could try that first before avoiding them entirely. Also, are you consuming any Gluten/Wheat or other grains? Sometimes people can get away with consuming those sprouted too.

Take care


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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evigrex: What I have had explained to me is that you can have normal blood sugar levels sometimes when you are IR because your body goes through a stage of being IR and hyperinsulinaemic at the same time -- ie, the body compensates for the IR by over-producing insulin, so you have apparently normal blood sugar levels but high levels of insulin. This is not my area of expertise (yes, I am a medical research scientist), so I'm not vouching for the accuracy of this claim, but on the face of it I can't see anything wrong with it.

You also suggested that drugs like metformin may help women because of their anti-androgenic properties -- do you have any data on this? I've never heard that metformin or similar drugs have antiandrogenic properties (unlike say spironolactone which was not originally intended to be used as an antiandrogen, but was used as such after some men who used it developed breasts and so on)

The fact is that many women who have PCOS report that they are helped by following a low-glycaemic index diet, even before they lose any weight. Do low GI foods have anti-androgenic properties?

I can understand your frustration in dealing with what you perceive to be the perpertuation of inaccuracies, but your close-minded attitude demonstrates precisely why people don't listen to their doctors in the first place. Doctors for years told me that my lack of periods, acne, hirsutism, etc, was "normal" for someone of my ethnic background (how a lack of periods in normal weight person in their 20s can be normal... but never mind, I digress) -- most of them were quite arrogant about it, and because they were so adamant that I couldn't understand the slightest thing about my own body (despite the fact that I have a PhD in biochemisty) I ultimately turned off to them.

Ultimately (nearly 10 years later) I was diagnosed with an adrenal disorder. Well, actually the first endocrinologist diagnosed PCOS, after doing my blood work and the second, after I moved to a new town and so had to find a new endocrinologist, did more blood work and said "adrenal disorder". So much for doctors knowing everything and so much for "normal" bb_icon_rolleyes.gif

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evigrex:  What I have had explained to me is that you can have normal blood sugar levels sometimes when you are IR because your body goes through a stage of being IR and hyperinsulinaemic at the same time -- ie, the body compensates for the IR by over-producing insulin, so you have apparently normal blood sugar levels but high levels of insulin.  This is not my area of expertise (yes, I am a medical research scientist), so I'm not vouching for the accuracy of this claim, but on the face of it I can't see anything wrong with it.

You also suggested that drugs like metformin may help women because of their anti-androgenic properties -- do you have any data on this?  I've never heard that metformin or similar drugs have antiandrogenic properties (unlike say spironolactone which was not originally intended to be used as an antiandrogen, but was used as such after some men who used it developed breasts and so on)

The fact is that many women who have PCOS report that they are helped by following a low-glycaemic index diet, even before they lose any weight.  Do low GI foods have anti-androgenic properties?

I can understand your frustration in dealing with what you perceive to be the perpertuation of inaccuracies, but your close-minded attitude demonstrates precisely why people don't listen to their doctors in the first place.  Doctors for years told me that my lack of periods, acne, hirsutism, etc, was "normal" for someone of my ethnic background (how a lack of periods in normal weight person in their 20s can be normal... but never mind, I digress) -- most of them were quite arrogant about it, and because they were so adamant that I couldn't understand the slightest thing about my own body (despite the fact that I have a PhD in biochemisty) I ultimately turned off to them.

Ultimately (nearly 10 years later) I was diagnosed with an adrenal disorder.  Well, actually the first endocrinologist diagnosed PCOS, after doing my blood work and the second, after I moved to a new town and so had to find a new endocrinologist, did more blood work and said "adrenal disorder".   So much for doctors knowing everything and so much for "normal"  bb_icon_rolleyes.gif


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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I explained that before - and it only happens several hours after consuming a high sugar meal. This does NOT alter the results of a fasting blood glucose test or a dextrose challenge test - in fact - if someone who is insulin resistant does a dextrose challenge test their blood glucose levels will be sky high at the 1 and 2 hour mark, and be very low at the 3 hour mark. This is normal. Perhaps you can read my earlier post where I address this.

Yeah - and all anti diabetic medications aside from exogenous insulin will usually cause a drastic reduction in androgens... you can search for the terms "metformin testosterone", "avandia testosterone", etc over at NIH to confirm this.

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bb_eusa_wall.gifbb_eusa_wall.gifbb_eusa_wall.gif

Why do *I* have to do all the homework here? I'm not the one coming out with theories that are unproven and far fetched.

AGAIN: One of the purposes of insulin is to eliminate blood glucose from the blood stream. To measure for insulin resistance or diabetes, endocrinologists will

test the serum blood glucose level after fasting or after drinking a dextrose solution - if its extremely high that will indicate that muscle and fat cells are "resistant" to accepting blood glucose....This means that the pancreas will in turn over-produce insulin for a prolonged amount of time trying to eliminate blood glucose from the bloodstream - but cell uptake (of glucose) is hampered because of insulin resistance or diabetes. If the test results are in an optimal range, then that would indicate that muslce and fat cells are accepting blood glucose properly, and that insulin is doing its job in eliminating blood glucose. Since insulin exists for the purpose of eliminating blood glucose from the bloodstream, blood glucose and insulin concentrations are always correlated with each other - that is why insulin is rarely, if ever, tested for to screen insulin resistance or diabetes.

Note that I said this test is *always* done after 12 hours of fasting or after consuming a dextrose solution. Because if this test is done at other times, the results may be skewed showing a diabetic person as having a normal concentration of blood glucose. It is common for someone who has a glucose metbaolism disorder to have low to normal serum blood glucose after eating a meal high in sugars. Initially their blood glucose level will be sky high (especially 1 hour after consuming the meal) and their pancreas will produce a normal amount of insulin to eliminate glucose from the bloodstream. However, 2-3 hours afterwards when the pituitary determines that a normal amount of insulin is not doing an efficient job at eliminating blood glucose, it will over-produce insulin in large quantities to remove glucose regardless of where that glucose goes. I have seen this occur with pretty much 100% of subjects with insulin resistance or diabetes.

Now as far as anti-diabetic meds....I'll let you do your own homework there. I'm aware of several studies done on normal, non-diabetic men taking metformin, actos and avandia - and androgen levels were reduced. There are theories out there on why anti-diabetic medications reduce androgens, but none are proven.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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How is it asking you to do all the homework when I ask you to point out which posts you meant or to actually provide evidence of claims that you make?

And why do you say these theories are far-fetched and unproven? I was under the impression that insulin resistance as the cause of elevated testosterone levels and PCOS was the most accepted theory today. My last endocrinologist certainly accepted this theory -- that was what lead him to do further tests and thus change my original diagnosis from PCOS to adrenal disorder -- he said that most of his "PCOS ladies" were overweight, and that you don't get PCOS without insulin resistance.

What is your background exactly? If you're a medic or endocrinologist, then it would be helpful if you could be a bit less dogmatic (I think we'd be light years ahead of current medical practise if clinicians weren't wedged so firmly up their own arses). And if you're not, then what expertise do you have that enables you to say, "these endocrinologists are putting forward far-fetched and unproven theories and these ones are not"?

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Huh? That first statement was directed more at you. Stating that high insulin levels can exist (aside from post prandially) with normal to low blood glucose levels is absurd and ridiculous. Why don't YOU post proof of this claim...I know you won't find any studies backing that one.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Doberwoman,

Yeah it's true. It's their Insulin Sensitizing action that makes them work as anti-androgens, by reducing the amount of insulin our body utilizes.

I was tested for adrenal disorders too, but continuously came up negative. Although I personally put out a high amount of DHEA, I was dx as PCOS or Insulin Resistant (but women generally produce more of this form of androgen, right?). Insulin Sensitizers (Avandia 2mg) worked better for me than Birth Control, although by only 10 - 15%. I'm sure if I had taken 4mg or even 8mg it would have worked even better. However, I also learned that I was able to reduce my androgens by following a Gluten-Free (my form of low carb) diet, along with some other food avoids. I know other men and women that never got themselves tested, but also find similar or more "strict" diets to work wonders for them as well.

I'm not certain how many adrenal disorders are connected to Insulin Resistance, but you can give it a try. I know that some PCOS women are misdiagnosed as they actually have a Non-Classical Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (LOCAH/NCCAH) disorder. Unfortunately some PCOS women are hypothyroid and NCCAH at the same time. Also, not all women with PCOS seem to be Insulin Resistant according to them, I guess that's why progesterone seems to work wonders for that type. I was actually researching this for someone on the prescription forum and it appears that there are 3 - 5 subtypes of PCOS. I don't fall under the "traditional" type (irregular periods, cystic ovaries), but more so under a few of the subtypes.

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...pic=28904&st=30 (page 3)

Here's some of what info I have on the Insulin Resistance, Hyperinsulinemia, Anti-androgen effect:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=29231

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=26936

Glad to see ya on here, take care


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Jade: again.....stating that lowering insulin is their mode of lowering androgen levels may not be correct. There is no proof whatsoever of that claim, although it has been theorized by many.

And explain this to me: exogenous insulin has no effect whatsoever on androgen levels - yet exogenous insulin reduces postprandial and fasting insulin concentrations and blood glucose drastically. In addition, exo-insulin has receptor affinity for insulin receptors even in cases where endogenous insulin does not. If lowering insulin were indeed the reason for lowered androgen production, you would expect the opposite, no?


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Certain types of adrenal disorders can easily be connected to impaired glucose metabolism. If excess production of norepinephrine is involved, that would most certainly cause insulin resistance....


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Evigrex,

Right, but not everyone that has acne via adrenal disorders overproduces adrenal hormones. Sometimes it's the ATTEMPT to produce a normal amount that isn't occuring, that can also increase one's androgens. So to be on the safe side, I generally don't link NCCAH to this yet ;-)

You didn't answer her question about just exactly where you field of expertise lies.

I'm glad to see that you are ready to acknowledge the fact that Insulin Sensitizers can have an anti-androgenic effect, but I'm sad to see that you don't quite understand how that is possible. While not everything is true 100% of the time for all cases, for the umpteenth time, Insulin does have the ability to lower your IGFBP-3 and SHBG. Since SHBG is what binds Free Testosterone (what I naturally have too much of), you take something like Birth Control, Exercise (not a huge impact) or an Insulin Sensitizer (certain supps too), and it will INCREASE your SHBG. This is how it works as an anti-androgen, by reducing the amount of Insulin presented in the blood stream.

Bye for now ;-)


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Why is my background important? I never claimed to be an endo. Human physiology is something that has fascinated me for a long time, and I devoted quite a lot of time studying it while I was in college. Although I didn't end up getting a job in that field, It is still something that I find very interesting.

I've heard you state that before, that insulin can lower SHBG....but there is a lot of conflicting evidence on that. For example...like I stated earlier, exogenous insulin doesn't have an effect on sex hormones from the studies that i've viewed. I have also seen studies showing of men with hypogonadism given exogenous testosterone to raise their androgen levels to physiological levels had an *improvement* in insulin sensitivity....you would think the opposite if increased testosterone automatically means decreased insulin sensitivity.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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