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partygirl1984

Liverflushing?!

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What does the procedure of a liver flush actually involve? I heard it was beneficial for acne sufferers. Although my acne gets me down i don't feel it's severe enough for me to have a liver flush. Are there any alternatives? I heard there were some herbs i could take if this was the problem.

I know this question and all possible answers have probably been posted before but it takes ages looking through every post on it so sorry if I'm repeating things that have alreday been said smile.gif

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I'm of the people who, quite frankly, think liverflushes don't do any good and, at best, help people by virtue of the placebo effect. Taking sugar pills, for example, in my opinion, would be just as effective.

I think Dan's regimen is the best way to control mild-moderate acne. Have you tried it for a few months?

I just don't believe drinking a gallon of oil and getting diarrhea solves anything about the skin on your face smile.gif.

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PartyGirl: Please go to: www.sensiblehealth.com and read about the health of the liver and how it causes various health issues in the body. With regard to your specific questions, the answer would be: No. You can't take herbs and have intrahepatic stones just leave your liver magically. Keep in mind, though, that you may not have many intrahepatic stones, you may just need to clean your bowel. Everyone has their own acne puzzle. Only you can decide what you need to do. As for me, I KNEW something was wrong with my liver and told my husband so for over a year. The problem was that I took every "liver cleansing" herb on the planet, but none of them helped, and they actually seemed to make me break out, especially milk thistle. However, knowing what I knew about liverfunction, I still felt for certain that something was terribly wrong with my liver. I was right. I've flushed out over 1,000 stones, one as large as a whole walnut shell, and some that were calcified (white and hard as a rock almost). It was probably only a matter of time before I started having gallbladder problems as well.

Read all the information at sensiblehealth and then decide what you want to do. You may not need to do a flush, but most of the time, you'll have other problems that are related to liver function, if in fact you have a congested liver. I had severe chemical sensitivities, symptoms of multiple schlerosis, food allergies, a serious eye condition called irisitis for which I could literally have gone blind. I have none of these problems or symptoms anymore at all on any level.

I did do bowel cleansing as well, which is just as important. You really need to do your own reading and research because only you can decide what you should do.

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There are plenty of herbals and medications that improve liver function. The best one that I have personally used and can attest to is tyler's liver detox...this medication in a month basically restored my liver enzymes from being insanely high to being at the low end of normal. There are others like r-alpha lipoic acid (must be the r+ version...regular ala is not effective), liv-52, and milk thistle as well. I know for a fact that most of these, if used over a period of time will improve liver function and help the body remove fatty deposits.

Now, when I used the above medications I noted no difference at all in acne. I'm not sure how the liver is being tied to sebum production, either. - if anyone has an explanation i'm most interested.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Hey,

I'm sure someone could give more specific details, but there are several ways that the liver is tied to sebum production.

The liver can become defective to the point of being unable to produce enough bile and as such can't properly metabolize cholesterol, creating hypercholesterolemia. Since our steriod hormones, which are later used to increase sebum production, are produced from cholesterol that MAY be one aspect. Theoretically this would be due to the excess cholesterol being turned into extra steriod hormones....(or you could become overweight, etc) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12093894

Another aspect is that the liver also produces the neccessary enzymes for steriod hormone synthesis. More specificially the liver produces the enzymes neccessary to convert androgens into DHT and Growth Hormone into IGF-1. Both of these are almost always attributed to acne production via sebum gland growth, excess sebum secretion, skin cell proliferation, and even inflammation.

Eur J Pediatr. 2001 May;160(5):307-11.  Related Articles, Links 

 

Two hyperandrogenic adolescent girls with congenital portosystemic shunt.

Satoh M, Yokoya S, Hachiya Y, Hachiya M, Fujisawa T, Hoshino K, Saji T.

First Department of Paediatrics, Toho University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan. ped1adm@med.toho-u.ac.jp

We describe two adolescent girls with a congenital portosystemic shunt who exhibited hyperandrogenism in addition to insulin resistant hyperinsulinaemia. Case 1 was referred to our clinic to undergo a routine clinical work-up prior to tonsillectomy at 14 years of age. Mild liver dysfunction was identified and hypogenesis of the portal vein with a congenital portosystemic shunt diagnosed. Primary amenorrhoea and virilization were evident and an endocrinological evaluation revealed hyperandrogenism and insulin resistant hyperinsulinaemia. Case 2 was referred at 15 years of age because of cardiomegaly. Mild liver dysfunction and hyperbilirubinaemia led to a diagnosis of agenesis of the portal vein with a congenital portosystemic shunt. Virilization was evident and an endocrinological evaluation revealed hyperandrogenism and insulin resistant hyperinsulinaemia. The haemodynamics of these patients were similar to those of secondary portosystemic shunt due to liver cirrhosis, which is often associated with hyperinsulinaemia and/or non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. On the other hand, hyperandrogenism is associated with certain insulin-resistant conditions with hyperinsulinaemia, including the polycystic ovary syndrome (PCO). Hyperinsulinaemia is believed to cause hyperandrogenism in patients with PCO by stimulating androgen production in both the ovary and adrenal gland. Therefore, in congenital portosystemic shunts, hyperinsulinaemia is also thought to cause hyperandrogenism due to the same mechanism. CONCLUSION: A certain percentage of female patients with hyperandrogenism, likely including those with polycystic ovary syndrome may also have congenital portosystemic shunts. Our results indicate that serum levels of total bile acids and ammonia are prognostic indicators of this hepatic vascular anomaly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=11388600


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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I would recommend taking:

chinese bitters - available from Sensible health

and

Indian Tejaswini - available from Victoria Health

as alternatives to actual liver flushing. Both are very cleansing to your system, and will help prepare your body for a liver flush if you do decide to undertake one in the future.

smile.gif

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But do any of these have a signifigant impact on ALT elevations caused by liver abnormalities? Has anyone had a bloodtest to confirm it.


before you judge me take a look at you

can't you find something better to do

point the finger, slow to understand

arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"


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Evigrex,

When you post something, can you please try to define it at least a little bit ;-) Sometimes you post something like we know what you are talking about. Usually I do, but sometimes...

ALT - Liver Function Screening

This screening uses a finger stick method to measure alanine aminotransferase (GPT/SGPT), an important liver enzyme test used to help assess liver damage in patients with cardiovascular disease and/or diabetes and patients using selected prescription & herbal therapies. Patients taking the following therapies should have routine liver enzymes checked: Avandia, Actos, Lipitor, Zocor, Mevacor, Pravachol, Lescol, Red Rice Yeast, and NSAID's used to treat chronic pain, inflammation and arthritis.  http://www.dakotarx.com/services/Liver_Fun...n_Screening.htm 


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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PartyGirl:  Please go to:  www.sensiblehealth.com and read about the health of the liver and how it causes various health issues in the body.  With regard to your specific questions, the answer would be:  No.  You can't take herbs and have intrahepatic stones just leave your liver magically. Keep in mind, though, that you may not have many intrahepatic stones, you may just need to clean your bowel.  Everyone has their own acne puzzle.  Only you can decide what you need to do.  As for me, I KNEW something was wrong with my liver and told my husband so for over a year.  The problem was that I took every "liver cleansing" herb on the planet, but none of them helped, and they actually seemed to make me break out, especially milk thistle.  However, knowing what I knew about liverfunction, I still felt for certain that something was terribly wrong with my liver.  I was right.  I've flushed out over 1,000 stones, one as large as a whole walnut shell, and some that were calcified (white and hard as a rock almost).  It was probably only a matter of time before I started having gallbladder problems as well.

Read all the information at sensiblehealth and then decide what you want to do.  You may not need to do a flush, but most of the time, you'll have other problems that are related to liver function, if in fact you have a congested liver.  I had severe chemical sensitivities, symptoms of multiple schlerosis, food allergies, a serious eye condition called irisitis for which I could literally have gone blind.  I have none of these problems or symptoms anymore at all on any level. 

I did do bowel cleansing as well, which is just as important.  You really need to do your own reading and research because only you can decide what you should do.

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The liver can become defective to the point of being unable to produce enough bile and as such can't properly metabolize cholesterol, creating hypercholesterolemia. 

Who wants to be normal? Who wants normal results? We want to be exceptional. Exceptions confirm what is not normal

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Denise2, don't just only think in terms of stones. Her acne can be caused by just badly toxification and taking very good working detox products like ACV, dandelion, milk thistle, celandine, etc can do the trick.

In your case the cause was stones getting stuck in your body, but that doesnt mean everyone on the planet suffering from acne does have the same constipation problem. I would advise her to try several methods, starting with detox schedules first and doing liver flushes subsequently (if detox programs arent working)

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Denise2, don't just only think in terms of stones. Her acne can be caused by just badly toxification and taking very good working detox products like ACV, dandelion, milk thistle, celandine, etc can do the trick.

In your case the cause was stones getting stuck in your body, but that doesnt mean everyone on the planet suffering from acne does have the same constipation problem. I would advise her to try several methods, starting with detox schedules first and doing liver flushes subsequently (if detox programs arent working)

Keats: If you re-read what I said, I didn't speak in terms only of stones. I also mentioned bowel cleansing and encouraged her to make up her own mind. Look at it this way. Liver function doesn't just decrease for no reason. Something is happening to slow bile production. *IF* Partygirl wants to cleanse her liver and restore it's function, the quickest way to accomplish that is to flush her liver. Sure, anyone can take supplements, but that may not be getting to the route problem. If someone has acne, it's obvious to me that they want quick relief. You have to take Gold Coin Grass over a year in order to dissolve intrahepatic stones, and I'm not sure that they just slip out, even after they break down. I'm just not too sure about it. I reckon it COULD happen, but how, if there isn't a rather strong contraction by the liver (which is what a liverflush accomplishes).

Her original question was about liverflushing specifically. She asked could she substitute herbs.......my reply was mixed. If her problem is intrahepatic stones blocking the bile ducts, then it is accurate to say that herbs aren't going to cure that. She can take malic acid via ACV, or she can also take Gold Coin Grass, but if you are trying to treat something like acne, I'm assuming that she wants the quickest remedy.

I hope that makes it clear. You see, milk thistle and Swedish Bitters used to break me out. I finally figured out through reading SensibleHealth that these two herbs are pro estrogenic herbs. I never knew that, but that explained why they literally broke me out. Sometimes people become discouraged because they do things that others are doing and don't understand why they get mixed to no results. I tried Saw Palmetto, B5, birth control pills, got microderm, peels, tca peel, blood cleansing herbs, did detoxes, cleanses, fasts, etc....

I was determined to find my acne cure as I was convinced that there was a missing puzzle piece. Sometimes we can try everything but it never addresses the root cause. I have nothing against liver strenghtening herbs (I take Chinese Bitters everyday), however, they may or may not work to clear acne in some people, and they don't address the issue of intrahepatic stones. And, as I said before, I'm not fully convinced that someone with stones blocking their bile ducts that works on dissolving the stones will be able to remove them (they still exist, they are just in a flattened state). How do the stones come out if the liver doesn't contract and release them? I dunno.........I'd like to know.

Hope that explains my thinking on the matter.

p.s......I was also trying to consider the cost effectiveness of purchasing herbs for at least a year and whatnot vs. getting to the root of the problem quickly.

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Hey Keats, I understand what you are saying. smile.gif I understand being risk averse, but to be honest, there's really not a lot of risk at all in doing flushes if you are reasonably healthy. The main risk would be if a stone were to fall out of the gallbladder and cause bilary colic or if a gallstone were to move into the ampulla and cause pancreatic juices to become restricted. This would cause bile to move into the pancreas and cause pancreatitis. Keep in mind that the only people really at risk for either of these two would be people who have gallbladders and livers packed with stones. They have usually been to the doctor or hospital and usually have had many or some gallbladder attacks. I'm sure you don't fall into that category and neither did I. I never had one problem with any of the flushes I completed. I think I got tired of spending so much money on supplements, too. :wink:

Keep in mind that stones form in the bile ducts of the liver when an increased amount of cholesterol in the bile overwhelms the dissolving capabilities of bile salts . This occurs because of an overabundance of animal protein consumption, and that can occur at any age. My 11 year old son passed about 25-30 little stones once when he did a flush, and many were chickpea sized. And he has never been on cow's milk, though he does eat yogurt and cheese. He does eat meat, but we eat much healthier than the average American.

In any event......my only point here is to point out that if a person is having to take liver herbs, blood cleansing herbs, etc.....then there is a root cause for that. What exactly is wrong with the liver that would require taking herbs in the first place?

I guess I'm very pragmatic and since I've always searched for answers to my acne dillema, I'm prone to think in those terms.

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Hey Keats, I understand what you are saying.  smile.gif  I understand being risk averse, but to be honest, there's really not a lot of risk at all in doing flushes if you are reasonably healthy.  The main risk would be if a stone were to fall out of the gallbladder and cause bilary colic or if a gallstone were to move into the ampulla and cause pancreatic juices to become restricted.  This would cause bile to move into the pancreas and cause pancreatitis.  Keep in mind that the only people really at risk for either of these two would be people who have gallbladders and livers packed with stones.  They have usually been to the doctor or hospital and usually have had many or some gallbladder attacks.  I'm sure you don't fall into that category and neither did I.  I never had one problem with any of the flushes I completed.  I think I got tired of spending so much money on supplements, too. :wink:

Keep in mind that stones form in the bile ducts of the liver when an increased amount of cholesterol in the bile overwhelms the dissolving capabilities of bile salts .  This occurs because of an overabundance of animal protein consumption, and that can occur at any age.  My 11 year old son passed about 25-30 little stones once when he did a flush, and many were chickpea sized.  And he has never been on cow's milk,  though he does eat yogurt and cheese.  He does eat meat, but we eat much healthier than the average American. 

In any event......my only point here is to point out that if a person is having to take liver herbs, blood cleansing herbs, etc.....then there is a root cause for that.  What exactly is wrong with the liver that would require taking herbs in the first place?

I guess I'm very pragmatic and since I've always searched for answers to my acne dillema, I'm prone to think in those terms.

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The liver can become defective to the point of being unable to produce enough bile and as such can't properly metabolize cholesterol, creating hypercholesterolemia. 

Wouldn't this show as raised cholesterol levels in the blood ? Are you also saying that the more cholesterol the liver produces, the more testosterone is produced?


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


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Keats: If you are going to do a flush, then be sure to do plenty of bowel cleansing first so that you don't get breakouts.

I don't use epsom salts but just drink the oil/juice mixture and then take magnesium citrate the next morning (the whole bottle).

That's pretty much all I do. Personally, I don't believe epsoms are necessary and are unnecessarily dehydrating. Plus, they taste really nasty.+

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Keats:  If you are going to do a flush, then be sure to do plenty of bowel cleansing first so that you don't get breakouts. 

I don't use epsom salts but just drink the oil/juice mixture and then take magnesium citrate the next morning (the whole bottle). 

That's pretty much all I do.  Personally, I don't believe epsoms are necessary and are unnecessarily dehydrating.  Plus, they taste really nasty.+

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Well, you need to do whatever you are comfortable with. If you feel uncomfortable with doing a flush, then it's not for you. You just need to have all the facts and then you can make up your own mind. That's how I see it. I guess for me, risking a few breakouts so that I didn't have to stay on supplements all the time, it didn't matter; I couldn't possibly break out any worse than I had in the past. But we are all different. You just need to feel comfortable with whatever you are doing. After two weeks of research, I decided that liverflushing could only benefit me, so I wasn't too paranoid or anything. I read up as much as possible and then went for it. I had a bad breakout after flush 3, but I learned that I should do an enema or get a colonic after the flush to flush out any toxins, chaff, debris, etc....and that has never happened to me again.

But if you are clear and happy, then that's great! smile.gif You have all the facts and you understand what I'm saying. Everyone here should make up their own minds after they have all the facts before them, so it's all good.

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Well, you need to do whatever you are comfortable with.  If you feel uncomfortable with doing a flush, then it's not for you.  You just need to have all the facts and then you can make up your own mind.  That's how I see it.  I guess for me, risking a few breakouts so that I didn't have to stay on supplements all the time, it didn't matter; I couldn't possibly break out any worse than I had in the past.  But we are all different.  You just need to feel comfortable with whatever you are doing.  After two weeks of research, I decided that liverflushing could only benefit me, so I wasn't too paranoid or anything.  I read up as much as possible and then went for it.  I had a bad breakout after flush 3, but I learned that I should do an enema or get a colonic after the flush to flush out any toxins, chaff, debris, etc....and that has never happened to me again.

But if you are clear and happy, then that's great! smile.gif    You have all the facts and you understand what I'm saying.  Everyone here should make up their own minds after they have all the facts before them, so it's all good.

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When i first started doing bowel cleansing, i started getting horrible breakouts. After two months and 4 liver flushes, my skin is look 90% better. A few more liver flushes and i think my face will be 100% clear.

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Denise2, btw I think I am gonna do some colon cleanses after all. I have found a very good colon cleansing product at a natural health store in my neighbour country Belgium.

The product is called ColonLife and contains the following ingrediënts: psyllium (husk) 35%, bentonite 8%, alfalfaleaves, barleygrass, kamutgrass, liquorice, fenugreek, laurel leaves, hyssop, nettle leaves, chlorella, horsetale, ginger, rose-hip and hybiscus flower.

I think it is a good replacement for those P&B shakes. Should I take these on an empty stomach as well, like the P&B shakes?

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When i first started doing bowel cleansing, i started getting horrible breakouts.  After two months and 4 liver flushes, my skin is look 90% better. A few more liver flushes and i think my face will be 100% clear.

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