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#1 partygirl1984

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 02:30 PM

What does the procedure of a liver flush actually involve? I heard it was beneficial for acne sufferers. Although my acne gets me down i don't feel it's severe enough for me to have a liver flush. Are there any alternatives? I heard there were some herbs i could take if this was the problem.

I know this question and all possible answers have probably been posted before but it takes ages looking through every post on it so sorry if I'm repeating things that have alreday been said smile.gif

#2 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 02:35 PM

I'm of the people who, quite frankly, think liverflushes don't do any good and, at best, help people by virtue of the placebo effect. Taking sugar pills, for example, in my opinion, would be just as effective.

I think Dan's regimen is the best way to control mild-moderate acne. Have you tried it for a few months?

I just don't believe drinking a gallon of oil and getting diarrhea solves anything about the skin on your face smile.gif.

#3 Denise2

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 02:49 PM

PartyGirl: Please go to: www.sensiblehealth.com and read about the health of the liver and how it causes various health issues in the body. With regard to your specific questions, the answer would be: No. You can't take herbs and have intrahepatic stones just leave your liver magically. Keep in mind, though, that you may not have many intrahepatic stones, you may just need to clean your bowel. Everyone has their own acne puzzle. Only you can decide what you need to do. As for me, I KNEW something was wrong with my liver and told my husband so for over a year. The problem was that I took every "liver cleansing" herb on the planet, but none of them helped, and they actually seemed to make me break out, especially milk thistle. However, knowing what I knew about liverfunction, I still felt for certain that something was terribly wrong with my liver. I was right. I've flushed out over 1,000 stones, one as large as a whole walnut shell, and some that were calcified (white and hard as a rock almost). It was probably only a matter of time before I started having gallbladder problems as well.

Read all the information at sensiblehealth and then decide what you want to do. You may not need to do a flush, but most of the time, you'll have other problems that are related to liver function, if in fact you have a congested liver. I had severe chemical sensitivities, symptoms of multiple schlerosis, food allergies, a serious eye condition called irisitis for which I could literally have gone blind. I have none of these problems or symptoms anymore at all on any level.

I did do bowel cleansing as well, which is just as important. You really need to do your own reading and research because only you can decide what you should do.

#4 evigrex

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 03:14 PM

There are plenty of herbals and medications that improve liver function. The best one that I have personally used and can attest to is tyler's liver detox...this medication in a month basically restored my liver enzymes from being insanely high to being at the low end of normal. There are others like r-alpha lipoic acid (must be the r+ version...regular ala is not effective), liv-52, and milk thistle as well. I know for a fact that most of these, if used over a period of time will improve liver function and help the body remove fatty deposits.

Now, when I used the above medications I noted no difference at all in acne. I'm not sure how the liver is being tied to sebum production, either. - if anyone has an explanation i'm most interested.

#5 edenfield

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 04:53 PM

curezone.com

look up coffee enema

#6 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:02 PM

Enemas are icky.

#7 Guest_Tracy_*

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE(edenfield @ Aug 2 2004, 03:40 PM)
look up coffee enema

I don't like the thought of putting coffee up my butt. I'd rather drink it. smile.gif

#8 SweetJade1980

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:14 PM

Hey,

I'm sure someone could give more specific details, but there are several ways that the liver is tied to sebum production.

The liver can become defective to the point of being unable to produce enough bile and as such can't properly metabolize cholesterol, creating hypercholesterolemia. Since our steriod hormones, which are later used to increase sebum production, are produced from cholesterol that MAY be one aspect. Theoretically this would be due to the excess cholesterol being turned into extra steriod hormones....(or you could become overweight, etc) http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12093894

Another aspect is that the liver also produces the neccessary enzymes for steriod hormone synthesis. More specificially the liver produces the enzymes neccessary to convert androgens into DHT and Growth Hormone into IGF-1. Both of these are almost always attributed to acne production via sebum gland growth, excess sebum secretion, skin cell proliferation, and even inflammation.


QUOTE
Eur J Pediatr. 2001 May;160(5):307-11.  Related Articles, Links 

 
Two hyperandrogenic adolescent girls with congenital portosystemic shunt.
Satoh M, Yokoya S, Hachiya Y, Hachiya M, Fujisawa T, Hoshino K, Saji T.

First Department of Paediatrics, Toho University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan. ped1adm@med.toho-u.ac.jp

We describe two adolescent girls with a congenital portosystemic shunt who exhibited hyperandrogenism in addition to insulin resistant hyperinsulinaemia. Case 1 was referred to our clinic to undergo a routine clinical work-up prior to tonsillectomy at 14 years of age. Mild liver dysfunction was identified and hypogenesis of the portal vein with a congenital portosystemic shunt diagnosed. Primary amenorrhoea and virilization were evident and an endocrinological evaluation revealed hyperandrogenism and insulin resistant hyperinsulinaemia. Case 2 was referred at 15 years of age because of cardiomegaly. Mild liver dysfunction and hyperbilirubinaemia led to a diagnosis of agenesis of the portal vein with a congenital portosystemic shunt. Virilization was evident and an endocrinological evaluation revealed hyperandrogenism and insulin resistant hyperinsulinaemia. The haemodynamics of these patients were similar to those of secondary portosystemic shunt due to liver cirrhosis, which is often associated with hyperinsulinaemia and/or non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. On the other hand, hyperandrogenism is associated with certain insulin-resistant conditions with hyperinsulinaemia, including the polycystic ovary syndrome (PCO). Hyperinsulinaemia is believed to cause hyperandrogenism in patients with PCO by stimulating androgen production in both the ovary and adrenal gland. Therefore, in congenital portosystemic shunts, hyperinsulinaemia is also thought to cause hyperandrogenism due to the same mechanism. CONCLUSION: A certain percentage of female patients with hyperandrogenism, likely including those with polycystic ovary syndrome may also have congenital portosystemic shunts. Our results indicate that serum levels of total bile acids and ammonia are prognostic indicators of this hepatic vascular anomaly.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11388600



"congenital portosystemic shunts"
Something for me to look up ;-)


Anyway, I know that there are supposed to be a few herbs that can help boost bile secretion and I believe one of those was Coptis from Sensible Health.

If you want to melt or dissolve stones over time you can take Gold Coin Grass (GCG) or if you are concerned about the herb, you can take Malic Acid or Apple Cider Vinegar.

HTH

#9 Rossignol

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:32 PM

I would recommend taking:
chinese bitters - available from Sensible health
and
Indian Tejaswini - available from Victoria Health
as alternatives to actual liver flushing. Both are very cleansing to your system, and will help prepare your body for a liver flush if you do decide to undertake one in the future.
smile.gif

#10 evigrex

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:34 PM

But do any of these have a signifigant impact on ALT elevations caused by liver abnormalities? Has anyone had a bloodtest to confirm it.

#11 SweetJade1980

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:16 PM

Evigrex,
When you post something, can you please try to define it at least a little bit ;-) Sometimes you post something like we know what you are talking about. Usually I do, but sometimes...

QUOTE
ALT - Liver Function Screening

This screening uses a finger stick method to measure alanine aminotransferase (GPT/SGPT), an important liver enzyme test used to help assess liver damage in patients with cardiovascular disease and/or diabetes and patients using selected prescription & herbal therapies. Patients taking the following therapies should have routine liver enzymes checked: Avandia, Actos, Lipitor, Zocor, Mevacor, Pravachol, Lescol, Red Rice Yeast, and NSAID's used to treat chronic pain, inflammation and arthritis.  http://www.dakotarx....n_Screening.htm 



I've had my basic liver enzymes checked and they are normal. Based on what they've tested me for so far, everything about me is "normal"...except for certain steriod hormones. Because I've been on Spironolactone for over 6 years and was also on Avandia for a little over a year I had a liver panel done several times a year. So while those tests say I'm fine, I still produce more of certain other liver enzymes that are responsible for steriod hormone production. Some of those have been checked and come up slightly elevated and some don't. Of course, it's impossible to test for ALL of the enzymes our liver makes, some of which they've yet to discover.


In case you were wondering R-ALA, along with NAC (1 - 3 g), and certain other supplements & herbs (Milk thistle - silibin, pycnogenol), not only help metabolize carbohydrates (and can lower androgen levels), but also work to boost Glutathione Levels which is used not only do to aid in liver detoxification, but also in reducing....IGF-1.


QUOTE
Posit Health News. 1998 Fall;(No 17):14-5.  Related Articles, Links 


Hepatitis viral load correlates to glutathione levels.

[No authors listed]

AIDS: Several recent scientific articles have found a direct correlation between Glutathione levels and viral activity for hepatitis B and C. When viral load increases, Glutathione decreases. Researchers from Germany report that adding NAC (N-acetyl cysteine) to HBV producing cells lines can reduce hepatitis viral load 50 fold. Glutathione is used by the liver to help break down toxins. Patients who have chronic infection for more than 90 days should ask their physicians to check their Glutathione levels. A test kit is available from ImmunoSciences Labs; contact information is included. An amino acid, L-Glutamine, can be used with Alpha Lipoic Acid and NAC to increase Glutathione levels. Chlorophyll also offers benefits to people with hepatitis and other infections. Instructions on how to use a special retention enema containing chlorophyll, water, and apple cider vinegar are provided. http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11366543



QUOTE
Fertil Steril. 2002 Jun;77(6):1128-35.  Related Articles, Links 

 
N-acetyl-cysteine treatment improves insulin sensitivity in women with polycystic ovary syndrome.

Fulghesu AM, Ciampelli M, Muzj G, Belosi C, Selvaggi L, Ayala GF, Lanzone A.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Universita Cattolica del Sacro Cuore, Roma, Italy.

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) on insulin secretion and peripheral insulin resistance in subjects with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). DESIGN: Prospective data analysis. SETTING: Volunteer women in an academic research environment. PATIENT(S): Six lean and 31 obese subjects, aged 19-33 years. INTERVENTION(S): Patients were treated for 5-6 weeks with NAC at a dose of 1.8 g/day orally. A dose of 3 g/day was arbitrarily chosen for massively obese subjects. Six of 31 obese patients with PCOS were treated with placebo and served as controls. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Before and after the treatment period, the hormonal and lipid blood profile and insulin sensitivity, assessed by an hyperinsulinemic euglycemic clamp, were evaluated and an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) was performed. RESULT(S): Fasting glucose, fasting insulin, and glucose area under curve (AUC) were unchanged after treatment. Insulin AUC after OGTT was significantly reduced, and the peripheral insulin sensitivity increased after NAC administration, whereas the hepatic insulin extraction was unaffected. The NAC treatment induced a significant fall in T levels and in free androgen index values (P<.05). In analyzing patients according to their insulinemic response to OGTT, normoinsulinemic subjects and placebo-treated patients did not show any modification of the above parameters, whereas a significant improvement was observed in hyperinsulinemic subjects. CONCLUSION(S): NAC may be a new treatment for the improvement of insulin circulating levels and insulin sensitivity in hyperinsulinemic patients with polycystic ovary syndrome.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12057717



So those are some ways that those supplements you mentioned can help. If you didn't notice a difference maybe you didn't take enough, or maybe you could have to tried adding something to that.


Take Care

P.S. My ALT in October 2002 was 26 on a range of 0-33 IU/L Interestingly enough my Triglycerides and LDL were BELOW the referance ranges. At the time, I had been on 4mg of Avandia, 150mg Spiro, 1g of Fish Oil, and my Gluten Free Diet for 3 months!

#12 Keats

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:02 AM

QUOTE(Denise2 @ Aug 2 2004, 02:36 PM)
PartyGirl:  Please go to:  www.sensiblehealth.com and read about the health of the liver and how it causes various health issues in the body.  With regard to your specific questions, the answer would be:  No.  You can't take herbs and have intrahepatic stones just leave your liver magically. Keep in mind, though, that you may not have many intrahepatic stones, you may just need to clean your bowel.  Everyone has their own acne puzzle.  Only you can decide what you need to do.  As for me, I KNEW something was wrong with my liver and told my husband so for over a year.  The problem was that I took every "liver cleansing" herb on the planet, but none of them helped, and they actually seemed to make me break out, especially milk thistle.  However, knowing what I knew about liverfunction, I still felt for certain that something was terribly wrong with my liver.  I was right.  I've flushed out over 1,000 stones, one as large as a whole walnut shell, and some that were calcified (white and hard as a rock almost).  It was probably only a matter of time before I started having gallbladder problems as well.

Read all the information at sensiblehealth and then decide what you want to do.  You may not need to do a flush, but most of the time, you'll have other problems that are related to liver function, if in fact you have a congested liver.  I had severe chemical sensitivities, symptoms of multiple schlerosis, food allergies, a serious eye condition called irisitis for which I could literally have gone blind.  I have none of these problems or symptoms anymore at all on any level. 

I did do bowel cleansing as well, which is just as important.  You really need to do your own reading and research because only you can decide what you should do.

Denise2, don't just only think in terms of stones. Her acne can be caused by just badly toxification and taking very good working detox products like ACV, dandelion, milk thistle, celandine, etc can do the trick.

In your case the cause was stones getting stuck in your body, but that doesnt mean everyone on the planet suffering from acne does have the same constipation problem. I would advise her to try several methods, starting with detox schedules first and doing liver flushes subsequently (if detox programs arent working)

#13 Sam The Man

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:24 AM

QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Aug 3 2004, 02:01 AM)
The liver can become defective to the point of being unable to produce enough bile and as such can't properly metabolize cholesterol, creating hypercholesterolemia. 

Wouldn't this show as raised cholesterol levels in the blood ? Are you also saying that the more cholesterol the liver produces, the more testosterone is produced?

#14 Denise2

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:00 AM

QUOTE
Denise2, don't just only think in terms of stones. Her acne can be caused by just badly toxification and taking very good working detox products like ACV, dandelion, milk thistle, celandine, etc can do the trick.

In your case the cause was stones getting stuck in your body, but that doesnt mean everyone on the planet suffering from acne does have the same constipation problem. I would advise her to try several methods, starting with detox schedules first and doing liver flushes subsequently (if detox programs arent working)


Keats: If you re-read what I said, I didn't speak in terms only of stones. I also mentioned bowel cleansing and encouraged her to make up her own mind. Look at it this way. Liver function doesn't just decrease for no reason. Something is happening to slow bile production. *IF* Partygirl wants to cleanse her liver and restore it's function, the quickest way to accomplish that is to flush her liver. Sure, anyone can take supplements, but that may not be getting to the route problem. If someone has acne, it's obvious to me that they want quick relief. You have to take Gold Coin Grass over a year in order to dissolve intrahepatic stones, and I'm not sure that they just slip out, even after they break down. I'm just not too sure about it. I reckon it COULD happen, but how, if there isn't a rather strong contraction by the liver (which is what a liverflush accomplishes).

Her original question was about liverflushing specifically. She asked could she substitute herbs.......my reply was mixed. If her problem is intrahepatic stones blocking the bile ducts, then it is accurate to say that herbs aren't going to cure that. She can take malic acid via ACV, or she can also take Gold Coin Grass, but if you are trying to treat something like acne, I'm assuming that she wants the quickest remedy.

I hope that makes it clear. You see, milk thistle and Swedish Bitters used to break me out. I finally figured out through reading SensibleHealth that these two herbs are pro estrogenic herbs. I never knew that, but that explained why they literally broke me out. Sometimes people become discouraged because they do things that others are doing and don't understand why they get mixed to no results. I tried Saw Palmetto, B5, birth control pills, got microderm, peels, tca peel, blood cleansing herbs, did detoxes, cleanses, fasts, etc....

I was determined to find my acne cure as I was convinced that there was a missing puzzle piece. Sometimes we can try everything but it never addresses the root cause. I have nothing against liver strenghtening herbs (I take Chinese Bitters everyday), however, they may or may not work to clear acne in some people, and they don't address the issue of intrahepatic stones. And, as I said before, I'm not fully convinced that someone with stones blocking their bile ducts that works on dissolving the stones will be able to remove them (they still exist, they are just in a flattened state). How do the stones come out if the liver doesn't contract and release them? I dunno.........I'd like to know.

Hope that explains my thinking on the matter.

p.s......I was also trying to consider the cost effectiveness of purchasing herbs for at least a year and whatnot vs. getting to the root of the problem quickly.

#15 Keats

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE(Denise2 @ Aug 3 2004, 05:47 AM)
QUOTE
Denise2, don't just only think in terms of stones. Her acne can be caused by just badly toxification and taking very good working detox products like ACV, dandelion, milk thistle, celandine, etc can do the trick.

In your case the cause was stones getting stuck in your body, but that doesnt mean everyone on the planet suffering from acne does have the same constipation problem. I would advise her to try several methods, starting with detox schedules first and doing liver flushes subsequently (if detox programs arent working)


Keats: If you re-read what I said, I didn't speak in terms only of stones. I also mentioned bowel cleansing and encouraged her to make up her own mind. Look at it this way. Liver function doesn't just decrease for no reason. Something is happening to slow bile production. *IF* Partygirl wants to cleanse her liver and restore it's function, the quickest way to accomplish that is to flush her liver. Sure, anyone can take supplements, but that may not be getting to the route problem. If someone has acne, it's obvious to me that they want quick relief. You have to take Gold Coin Grass over a year in order to dissolve intrahepatic stones, and I'm not sure that they just slip out, even after they break down. I'm just not too sure about it. I reckon it COULD happen, but how, if there isn't a rather strong contraction by the liver (which is what a liverflush accomplishes).

Her original question was about liverflushing specifically. She asked could she substitute herbs.......my reply was mixed. If her problem is intrahepatic stones blocking the bile ducts, then it is accurate to say that herbs aren't going to cure that. She can take malic acid via ACV, or she can also take Gold Coin Grass, but if you are trying to treat something like acne, I'm assuming that she wants the quickest remedy.

I hope that makes it clear. You see, milk thistle and Swedish Bitters used to break me out. I finally figured out through reading SensibleHealth that these two herbs are pro estrogenic herbs. I never knew that, but that explained why they literally broke me out. Sometimes people become discouraged because they do things that others are doing and don't understand why they get mixed to no results. I tried Saw Palmetto, B5, birth control pills, got microderm, peels, tca peel, blood cleansing herbs, did detoxes, cleanses, fasts, etc....

I was determined to find my acne cure as I was convinced that there was a missing puzzle piece. Sometimes we can try everything but it never addresses the root cause. I have nothing against liver strenghtening herbs (I take Chinese Bitters everyday), however, they may or may not work to clear acne in some people, and they don't address the issue of intrahepatic stones. And, as I said before, I'm not fully convinced that someone with stones blocking their bile ducts that works on dissolving the stones will be able to remove them (they still exist, they are just in a flattened state). How do the stones come out if the liver doesn't contract and release them? I dunno.........I'd like to know.

Hope that explains my thinking on the matter.

p.s......I was also trying to consider the cost effectiveness of purchasing herbs for at least a year and whatnot vs. getting to the root of the problem quickly.

I am on your side, only one thing I don't understand is that milk thistle (along with all the others, incl. ACV) works pretty well for me, and it actually made you break out. :think:

I do believe in stones, but in my case (and maybe in many other persons cases like her one), a boy of only 20 years old, I can hardly believe my gallbladder and pancreas are congested with lots of stones. I was told by a person once that my body was toxified. I've started using these products and till now it is only giving good results.

I do agree with you that liverflushing is actually an accelerated procedure of what I am doing atm. I am also thinking of doing some, but somehow I find the method a little bit obscure. I don't know exactly why, but something is somehow refraining me from doing it.

I think it is because I am only reading old persons of 50+ doing liver flushes. I did only come across testimonials and succes stories of aged people who have experienced liver flushes. I am also very risk adverse. I think that might be influencing it as well.. razz.gif

#16 Denise2

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 08:11 AM

Hey Keats, I understand what you are saying. smile.gif I understand being risk averse, but to be honest, there's really not a lot of risk at all in doing flushes if you are reasonably healthy. The main risk would be if a stone were to fall out of the gallbladder and cause bilary colic or if a gallstone were to move into the ampulla and cause pancreatic juices to become restricted. This would cause bile to move into the pancreas and cause pancreatitis. Keep in mind that the only people really at risk for either of these two would be people who have gallbladders and livers packed with stones. They have usually been to the doctor or hospital and usually have had many or some gallbladder attacks. I'm sure you don't fall into that category and neither did I. I never had one problem with any of the flushes I completed. I think I got tired of spending so much money on supplements, too. :wink:

Keep in mind that stones form in the bile ducts of the liver when an increased amount of cholesterol in the bile overwhelms the dissolving capabilities of bile salts . This occurs because of an overabundance of animal protein consumption, and that can occur at any age. My 11 year old son passed about 25-30 little stones once when he did a flush, and many were chickpea sized. And he has never been on cow's milk, though he does eat yogurt and cheese. He does eat meat, but we eat much healthier than the average American.

In any event......my only point here is to point out that if a person is having to take liver herbs, blood cleansing herbs, etc.....then there is a root cause for that. What exactly is wrong with the liver that would require taking herbs in the first place?

I guess I'm very pragmatic and since I've always searched for answers to my acne dillema, I'm prone to think in those terms.

#17 Keats

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 09:22 AM

QUOTE(Denise2 @ Aug 3 2004, 07:58 AM)
Hey Keats, I understand what you are saying.  smile.gif  I understand being risk averse, but to be honest, there's really not a lot of risk at all in doing flushes if you are reasonably healthy.  The main risk would be if a stone were to fall out of the gallbladder and cause bilary colic or if a gallstone were to move into the ampulla and cause pancreatic juices to become restricted.  This would cause bile to move into the pancreas and cause pancreatitis.  Keep in mind that the only people really at risk for either of these two would be people who have gallbladders and livers packed with stones.  They have usually been to the doctor or hospital and usually have had many or some gallbladder attacks.  I'm sure you don't fall into that category and neither did I.  I never had one problem with any of the flushes I completed.  I think I got tired of spending so much money on supplements, too. :wink:

Keep in mind that stones form in the bile ducts of the liver when an increased amount of cholesterol in the bile overwhelms the dissolving capabilities of bile salts .  This occurs because of an overabundance of animal protein consumption, and that can occur at any age.  My 11 year old son passed about 25-30 little stones once when he did a flush, and many were chickpea sized.  And he has never been on cow's milk,  though he does eat yogurt and cheese.  He does eat meat, but we eat much healthier than the average American. 

In any event......my only point here is to point out that if a person is having to take liver herbs, blood cleansing herbs, etc.....then there is a root cause for that.  What exactly is wrong with the liver that would require taking herbs in the first place?

I guess I'm very pragmatic and since I've always searched for answers to my acne dillema, I'm prone to think in those terms.

Denise2, you should know how glaid I am that I've discovered how the body is actually functioning and knowing what is really causing my skin problems.

6 months ago I thought I would live on accutane for ever to control my acne. Sites like sensiblehealth / curezone and discussion boards like these gave me so more insight in certain cases about health issues.

I am really considering doing the liver flushes. I think I will start doing them in 2 months, so I have some more time to find out the best method, organize it a bit and integrate it in my monthly schedule.

Starting with my first question to you: which liver flush procedure did you follow?

I am willing to try the one from sensiblehealth, but I think I can skip step 1 and 2 and immediately start with step 3a, because I have been on ACV for about 4 months during that time. smile.gif

#18 SweetJade1980

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 09:43 AM

QUOTE(Sam The Man @ Aug 3 2004, 03:11 AM)
QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Aug 3 2004, 02:01 AM)
The liver can become defective to the point of being unable to produce enough bile and as such can't properly metabolize cholesterol, creating hypercholesterolemia. 

Wouldn't this show as raised cholesterol levels in the blood ? Are you also saying that the more cholesterol the liver produces, the more testosterone is produced?

Sam,

Yes for SOME people this will show up as having high cholesterol. For others this will show up as them being overweight or obese. For others, like myself, this shows up as overproducing androgens. Of course, you can have any combination of the above and then some.

The body will do what it wants with what we give it. Insulin is used for both glucose and cholesterol metabolism. A lot of acne sufferers say that they aren't overweight but actually have problems GAINING weight, well maybe this is why. Maybe our metabolisms are so fast that our body decides to turn that cholesterol into more hormones instead of more fat. Other people get an even "better" end of the deal and end up with not only excess androgens but also being overweight. There's no definates here and I guess that's why some people REFUSE to believe that there's a connection.

That's funny because it's our genetics that makes us so different. We all are composed of the same things and we usually live in the same environments, but not all of us look alike, talk alike, and we clearly don't act alike, right? So then why is it so hard to believe that whether you are in the same environment or a different environment, that your genes will also express themselves a bit differently as a result?

So again all I know is that the Steriod Hormones: Progesterones, Androgens, & Esterogens, in that order, are produced from cholesterol. Our bodies need it. There's no way we can produce them without this. So if we are making more of it, then perhaps we are able to do so, because we are overconsuming or making more cholesterol as well. Of course, that doesn't get to the root problem, that's only a contributing factor. Yet, perhaps this is why supplements like Fish Oil, Guggul and B5 work, by helping our fat metabolism.

Take care

#19 Denise2

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 11:49 AM

Keats: If you are going to do a flush, then be sure to do plenty of bowel cleansing first so that you don't get breakouts.

I don't use epsom salts but just drink the oil/juice mixture and then take magnesium citrate the next morning (the whole bottle).

That's pretty much all I do. Personally, I don't believe epsoms are necessary and are unnecessarily dehydrating. Plus, they taste really nasty.+

#20 Keats

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 12:24 PM

QUOTE(Denise2 @ Aug 3 2004, 11:36 AM)
Keats:  If you are going to do a flush, then be sure to do plenty of bowel cleansing first so that you don't get breakouts. 

I don't use epsom salts but just drink the oil/juice mixture and then take magnesium citrate the next morning (the whole bottle). 

That's pretty much all I do.  Personally, I don't believe epsoms are necessary and are unnecessarily dehydrating.  Plus, they taste really nasty.+

Well, I think this is why I keep refraining from doing liver flushes. My skin is perfectly clear. Not even a small red mark or 1mm pimple. I think I really cant handle an enormeous break-out caused by a liver flush :eek: