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Holistic Frauds


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#41 Denise2

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:44 PM

I don't think that anyone denies that there are hustlers and snake oil salesman out there, I know I definately do not. I think though, that the things that Ben talks about aren't proven to fall into those categories. Liverflushing only costs a few bucks. Colonics of course cost money, but anyone can spend a few bucks on an enema setup from the drugstore (I have one I got from Walgreens).

#42 Rossignol

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:46 PM

I agree with what you're saying Tracy, and I think that the whole point of the boards is that here people are not influenced by a 'quick buck' - people here are (generally) discussing their own personal experiences with acne treatments, which allows us to decide for ourselves whether the treatment is likely to work for us.

There is no question that Denise, jc or any of the other advocates of liver flushing on this board believes that it has helped clear their skin. The point is that they have actually tried it for themselves. From what I see, Ben has not tried liver flushing, or at least if he has, it has not been undertaken in the recommended way.
Therefore, I tend to value the opinions of Denise, jc and other supporters of liver flushing more than Ben's opinions, because they are speaking from experience whereas he is merely speaking from assumption.

On the other hand, I think it's good that we can have discussions like this on the board. In some ways, people like Ben help people to consider things like flushing more seriously and do more research before deciding whether they wish to undertake it.
smile.gif

#43 Guest_Tracy_*

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:54 PM

I've done a liver flush twice. The first time I got nothing....the second time I got mushy green peas. smile.gif

But I thought we were talking about Holistic Frauds in this thread? Isn't that the topic of this thread? :think:

#44 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:02 PM

smile.gif

The reason I've never done a flush isn't like "oh man, I don't want to be proved wrong," but just because I have a background in chemistry, as soon as I heard about it, and people's results, I was surprised no one had ever caught on before. My personal experience comes from many units on saponification throughout high school and college (or what I took of it) where we produced varying degrees of soap with oil (often olive) and a caustic (this ranged from alkaline lyes like NaOH to hydrochloric acid and vinegar). With vinegar, we always found that the soap would be very mushy (like peas), and would disintegrate easily.

I've never done saponification with citric acid (as in grapefruit...) but knowing from the similarity in pH, results would not be too different. Mix that with the fact that digestive enzymes in the stomach add more acid to a mix makes it very easy to see how acid can both catalyze the "liver flush" reaction to go on and supply the acid needed, too.

It's not that I'm closeminded and just want to put it down -- but every "good case" of these stones being anything but crappy soap has been on CureZone; and that place is a hell hole. As a guideline -- any place that tries to "educate" you in order to sell a product afterward is bad (so if a website tells you all about liver problems and then says, "By our enzyme fixing...," RUN!).

#45 Guest_Tracy_*

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:07 PM

But Ben.....then the same could be said for this site since Dan is now selling BP Gel, right? Perhaps people simply find something that works for them and then conveniently offer it for sale on their informative site?

#46 Rossignol

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:09 PM

Hmm. In some ways I agree with this last statement. But some sites do prove it wrong. After all, isn't that basically what acne.org is doing? It's suggesting that in order to battle acne, you could try benzoyl peroxide...


....lol, wait a minute, I just checked and Tracy has already posted this!
Great minds think alike, eh Trace? wink.gif

#47 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:13 PM

Well you have to consider the history of Dan's site. He, for years, promotes a product he was not making any profit on; one that could be found in a store by anyone walking and would make Dan no money. In other words, he spent web space ($$) to say "This worked for me, here's the science why, here's how we know because it's been studied by real doctors, etc..."

A site like "Sensible Health" (so named to try gaining some credibility, by the way) says, basically, "Yes... you can do this many ways... but OUR PATENTED UNIQUE FORMULA IS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO GET RESULTS." It's as simple as that.

Dan sells a product that has history and research that backs up his claims; liverflushies have CureZone.com.

#48 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:28 PM

And to anyone thinking I'm against EVERY alternative medicine, it's not true. There are, in fact, several highly known "Alternative Medicine practioners" who debunk liverflushing and colonics on a regular basis. Dr. Andrew Weil (a real doctor!) claims that:

1) Liver flushing produces soap; as I've always said.

2) Colonics are unnecessary and potentially dangerous:

QUOTE
I'm often asked about colonic irrigation as a means of "purification." This is totally unnecessary. The entire lining of the colon sloughs off and is regenerated every day. The best way to care for the colon is to let its own natural physiological actions keep it clean and in good working order. You can help by eating a high-fiber diet, drinking plenty of water, and exercising to help move your bowels regularly.


#49 Denise2

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:31 PM

Actually, your "take" on Julia Chang is quite mistaken. I have spoken with Ms. Chang twice by phone. She doesn't push her products on anyone BUT her products DO work. Many people testify to this. She is a biochemist and a scientist and she obviously knows what she is talking about. She helps people and has a reputation of having the utmost integrity. She will call ANYONE who calls her and she will call back at her expense and talk as long as you need. She is very well respected and well educated.

Nevertheless, it's NOT necessary to use her PROVEN herbal tinctures to flush, and for you to make her motives evil is flat-out wrong.

#50 Rossignol

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:33 PM

QUOTE
You can help by eating a high-fiber diet, drinking plenty of water, and exercising to help move your bowels regularly.


Is this all the Doctor Weill advocates? It just sounds like the typical advice about acne that we all already know. Does he suggest anything specific?

I have been using Sensible Health's chinese bitters for several weeks and I feel that they are working for me. :neutral:

#51 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:39 PM

Thanks Denise. But she's a greedy money-lover. A nice one, but a greedy money-lover none-the-less.

#52 Denise2

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:43 PM

Ben you never had bad acne and that's the main reason why you hold no weight with many of us regular posters.

But with regard to your theory on saponification, that's unproven to use your terminology. With regard to the colon naturally sloughing off fecal matter, that's definately NOT TRUE as people pass mucoid plaque all the time. There have been pictures posted of mucoid plaque as well.

But none of this matters to you. You even said that liverstones don't exist. I can post no less than 100 links to sites about intrahepatic stones; even once linking them with Crohn's disease.

You pick and choose what you believe. Hey, that's fine with me. But people need to know where you are coming from before they believe one thing you say.

You didn't have serious acne; you had a couple of pimples that went away by more water intake. Good for you! Most of us who went to derms for years and never got well, even after several rounds of Accutane still break out. For you to condescend to so many who have suffered so much is WRONG.

I couldn't care less what your opinions are. You never answer questions when backed into a corner. You never address why people have ultrasounds that show stones flushed away. You never address people's lab reports. You never address the points Ms. Chang makes on her site. She is obviously no dummy.....very educated but also understands the place that herbs have.

You seem to think that people who have tried liverflushing get some kind of emotional release via "placebo effect". Well how come that "placebo effect" didn't come about 5,000 bucks ago? I would certainly have liked it if that 500 bucks I spent on microdermabrasian had had the same "placebo effect".

Your logic isn't logic, it's only opinion. I think people know where you are coming from at this point. You were trolling the net and came across this site and you thought you could belittle and bully those of us who post here. You never came on as an open-minded individual who actually looked at the facts. Nope. You came on in a rude, obnoxious, fashion and tried to tell everyone they were idiots if they had good results with flushing.

Just as long as people understand that you have never had acne struggles and you don't know what you are talking about, post away.

#53 Denise2

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE
Thanks Denise. But she's a greedy money-lover. A nice one, but a greedy money-lover none-the-less.


Do you know how dumb this sounds? How would you begin to know whether or not she's greedy OR a moneylover?

You know what....keep posting. People will see you for exactly what you are, and how much sense you make. :eek: :doh: :blink:

#54 Guest_Tracy_*

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE(Rossignol @ Aug 2 2004, 04:56 PM)
Great minds think alike, eh Trace?  wink.gif

:wink:

#55 MechE06

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE
As to why I delete some of your posts, it's because when people ask questions regarding methods of alternative medicine and otherwise, you constantly stick your nose into people's businesses saying that it's a fraud, a fake, and that people are only out for money.  That is not why some people start threads.   Many people start threads because they want their questions answered.  Not because they want to put up with non-believers. 


People like ben do need to respond to someone's questions. People need to know both the pros and cons of any given regimen. Just because he's against liver flushing doesn't mean his posts should be deleted, it gives others a chance to know why they possibly shouldn't try it.

QUOTE
They obviously want to hear other people's experiences.  Not about someone who has never tried it before.


A lot of people who haven't tried products still post their opinion about it in other boards. For example, I've seen a lot of people say that mederma is no good, yet they themselves have never used it; They're just going by what other people have told them. And yea I know that Ben has not tried flushing, but he still is going by what other people (in his case, research) have told him.

Just my opinion biggrin.gif

#56 24 Hour Revenge Therapy

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:01 PM

Haha, this is funny. I heard eating Fruitloops Cereal, a registered trademark of General Mills will cure your acne forever. Everyone try it. Then yell at me.

#57 MechE06

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:06 PM

lol.gif

#58 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 08:26 PM

Denise,

I promise I'd read your War and Peace summary if I had the time but the fact that one of the first things you stuck with was about how my acne, according to you, wasn't severe enough to make me "important" changes my mind about reading on. I also found the word troll -- your vocabulary clearly shows your mastery of these topics; but you add nothing new to my thread so please stop posting in it.

My acne was never severe but the way that I grew up made any acne I had seem severe. You wouldn't understand what I mean but when perfection is expected of you and you go through puberty, you think your acne is the worst.

I did see "placebo" and read that part of your post. The placebo only came after a flush because only in a flush do you believe you're cleaning from the inside out. I'm sorry that you spent $5000 just to find that a sugar pill would've helped just as much; I'd be angry too.

And I love the irony of how you tell me to both not post because I don't belong here and to post because you want me to make a fool of myself. Would your last name happen to be Kerry? smile.gif

PS: I know you posted no less than 100 links. Google posts 24,000 at least, I'm sure. But as soon as some of them come from something beyond the website of a zen-master, I'll be sure to actually click them.

#59 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 08:49 PM

Oh and part of this original thread topic:

Denise once claimed to have flushed parasites from her body. Then I found this about Hulda Clark, another scam-pusher like the lady from SensibleHealth.com...

QUOTE
Patients who "cleanse" their intestines with Clark's recommended herbs may excrete what they think are parasites. However, in one instance I know of, a specimen of "parasites" turned out to be citrus fibers, presumably from grapefruit juice used for the "cleanse." In another, reported in a medical journal, the "parasites" turned out to be ordinary fecal material [6].


Now... is it just me or did Denise always say how she loves using grapefruit?

Gotta love QuackWatch.

#60 BenKweller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 09:04 PM

New addition to the thread: "How To Spot A Quacky Website" by Stephen Barrett, MD (oh what a suffix that is found to nonessential only by homeopaths. Would you want to go under the knife with a doctor who isn't an MD? So why pay money to drink their crappy pills?).

I liked this little snippet:

How to spot a quacky website...
QUOTE
Any site used to market herbs or dietary supplements. Although some are useful, I do not believe it is possible to sell them profitably without deception, which typically includes: (a) lack of full disclosure of relevant facts, (B) promotion or sale of products that lack a rational use, and/or © failure to provide advice indicating who should not  use the products. During the past 25 years, I have never encountered a seller who did not do at least one of these three things.


Any site used to market or promote homeopathic products. No such products have been proven effective.