Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:44 PM
Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:46 PM
There is no question that Denise, jc or any of the other advocates of liver flushing on this board believes that it has helped clear their skin. The point is that they have actually tried it for themselves. From what I see, Ben has not tried liver flushing, or at least if he has, it has not been undertaken in the recommended way.
Therefore, I tend to value the opinions of Denise, jc and other supporters of liver flushing more than Ben's opinions, because they are speaking from experience whereas he is merely speaking from assumption.
On the other hand, I think it's good that we can have discussions like this on the board. In some ways, people like Ben help people to consider things like flushing more seriously and do more research before deciding whether they wish to undertake it.
Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:54 PM
But I thought we were talking about Holistic Frauds in this thread? Isn't that the topic of this thread?
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:02 PM
The reason I've never done a flush isn't like "oh man, I don't want to be proved wrong," but just because I have a background in chemistry, as soon as I heard about it, and people's results, I was surprised no one had ever caught on before. My personal experience comes from many units on saponification throughout high school and college (or what I took of it) where we produced varying degrees of soap with oil (often olive) and a caustic (this ranged from alkaline lyes like NaOH to hydrochloric acid and vinegar). With vinegar, we always found that the soap would be very mushy (like peas), and would disintegrate easily.
I've never done saponification with citric acid (as in grapefruit...) but knowing from the similarity in pH, results would not be too different. Mix that with the fact that digestive enzymes in the stomach add more acid to a mix makes it very easy to see how acid can both catalyze the "liver flush" reaction to go on and supply the acid needed, too.
It's not that I'm closeminded and just want to put it down -- but every "good case" of these stones being anything but crappy soap has been on CureZone; and that place is a hell hole. As a guideline -- any place that tries to "educate" you in order to sell a product afterward is bad (so if a website tells you all about liver problems and then says, "By our enzyme fixing...," RUN!).
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:07 PM
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:09 PM
....lol, wait a minute, I just checked and Tracy has already posted this!
Great minds think alike, eh Trace?
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:13 PM
A site like "Sensible Health" (so named to try gaining some credibility, by the way) says, basically, "Yes... you can do this many ways... but OUR PATENTED UNIQUE FORMULA IS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO GET RESULTS." It's as simple as that.
Dan sells a product that has history and research that backs up his claims; liverflushies have CureZone.com.
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:28 PM
1) Liver flushing produces soap; as I've always said.
2) Colonics are unnecessary and potentially dangerous:
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:31 PM
Nevertheless, it's NOT necessary to use her PROVEN herbal tinctures to flush, and for you to make her motives evil is flat-out wrong.
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:33 PM
Is this all the Doctor Weill advocates? It just sounds like the typical advice about acne that we all already know. Does he suggest anything specific?
I have been using Sensible Health's chinese bitters for several weeks and I feel that they are working for me. :neutral:
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:39 PM
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:43 PM
But with regard to your theory on saponification, that's unproven to use your terminology. With regard to the colon naturally sloughing off fecal matter, that's definately NOT TRUE as people pass mucoid plaque all the time. There have been pictures posted of mucoid plaque as well.
But none of this matters to you. You even said that liverstones don't exist. I can post no less than 100 links to sites about intrahepatic stones; even once linking them with Crohn's disease.
You pick and choose what you believe. Hey, that's fine with me. But people need to know where you are coming from before they believe one thing you say.
You didn't have serious acne; you had a couple of pimples that went away by more water intake. Good for you! Most of us who went to derms for years and never got well, even after several rounds of Accutane still break out. For you to condescend to so many who have suffered so much is WRONG.
I couldn't care less what your opinions are. You never answer questions when backed into a corner. You never address why people have ultrasounds that show stones flushed away. You never address people's lab reports. You never address the points Ms. Chang makes on her site. She is obviously no dummy.....very educated but also understands the place that herbs have.
You seem to think that people who have tried liverflushing get some kind of emotional release via "placebo effect". Well how come that "placebo effect" didn't come about 5,000 bucks ago? I would certainly have liked it if that 500 bucks I spent on microdermabrasian had had the same "placebo effect".
Your logic isn't logic, it's only opinion. I think people know where you are coming from at this point. You were trolling the net and came across this site and you thought you could belittle and bully those of us who post here. You never came on as an open-minded individual who actually looked at the facts. Nope. You came on in a rude, obnoxious, fashion and tried to tell everyone they were idiots if they had good results with flushing.
Just as long as people understand that you have never had acne struggles and you don't know what you are talking about, post away.
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:45 PM
Do you know how dumb this sounds? How would you begin to know whether or not she's greedy OR a moneylover?
You know what....keep posting. People will see you for exactly what you are, and how much sense you make. :eek:
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:56 PM
Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:57 PM
People like ben do need to respond to someone's questions. People need to know both the pros and cons of any given regimen. Just because he's against liver flushing doesn't mean his posts should be deleted, it gives others a chance to know why they possibly shouldn't try it.
A lot of people who haven't tried products still post their opinion about it in other boards. For example, I've seen a lot of people say that mederma is no good, yet they themselves have never used it; They're just going by what other people have told them. And yea I know that Ben has not tried flushing, but he still is going by what other people (in his case, research) have told him.
Just my opinion
Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:01 PM
Posted 02 August 2004 - 08:26 PM
I promise I'd read your War and Peace summary if I had the time but the fact that one of the first things you stuck with was about how my acne, according to you, wasn't severe enough to make me "important" changes my mind about reading on. I also found the word troll -- your vocabulary clearly shows your mastery of these topics; but you add nothing new to my thread so please stop posting in it.
My acne was never severe but the way that I grew up made any acne I had seem severe. You wouldn't understand what I mean but when perfection is expected of you and you go through puberty, you think your acne is the worst.
I did see "placebo" and read that part of your post. The placebo only came after a flush because only in a flush do you believe you're cleaning from the inside out. I'm sorry that you spent $5000 just to find that a sugar pill would've helped just as much; I'd be angry too.
And I love the irony of how you tell me to both not post because I don't belong here and to post because you want me to make a fool of myself. Would your last name happen to be Kerry?
PS: I know you posted no less than 100 links. Google posts 24,000 at least, I'm sure. But as soon as some of them come from something beyond the website of a zen-master, I'll be sure to actually click them.
Posted 02 August 2004 - 08:49 PM
Denise once claimed to have flushed parasites from her body. Then I found this about Hulda Clark, another scam-pusher like the lady from SensibleHealth.com...
Now... is it just me or did Denise always say how she loves using grapefruit?
Gotta love QuackWatch.
Posted 02 August 2004 - 09:04 PM
I liked this little snippet:
How to spot a quacky website...
Any site used to market or promote homeopathic products. No such products have been proven effective.