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Holistic Frauds

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Thanks Denise. But she's a greedy money-lover. A nice one, but a greedy money-lover none-the-less.

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Ben you never had bad acne and that's the main reason why you hold no weight with many of us regular posters.

But with regard to your theory on saponification, that's unproven to use your terminology. With regard to the colon naturally sloughing off fecal matter, that's definately NOT TRUE as people pass mucoid plaque all the time. There have been pictures posted of mucoid plaque as well.

But none of this matters to you. You even said that liverstones don't exist. I can post no less than 100 links to sites about intrahepatic stones; even once linking them with Crohn's disease.

You pick and choose what you believe. Hey, that's fine with me. But people need to know where you are coming from before they believe one thing you say.

You didn't have serious acne; you had a couple of pimples that went away by more water intake. Good for you! Most of us who went to derms for years and never got well, even after several rounds of Accutane still break out. For you to condescend to so many who have suffered so much is WRONG.

I couldn't care less what your opinions are. You never answer questions when backed into a corner. You never address why people have ultrasounds that show stones flushed away. You never address people's lab reports. You never address the points Ms. Chang makes on her site. She is obviously no dummy.....very educated but also understands the place that herbs have.

You seem to think that people who have tried liverflushing get some kind of emotional release via "placebo effect". Well how come that "placebo effect" didn't come about 5,000 bucks ago? I would certainly have liked it if that 500 bucks I spent on microdermabrasian had had the same "placebo effect".

Your logic isn't logic, it's only opinion. I think people know where you are coming from at this point. You were trolling the net and came across this site and you thought you could belittle and bully those of us who post here. You never came on as an open-minded individual who actually looked at the facts. Nope. You came on in a rude, obnoxious, fashion and tried to tell everyone they were idiots if they had good results with flushing.

Just as long as people understand that you have never had acne struggles and you don't know what you are talking about, post away.

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Thanks Denise. But she's a greedy money-lover. A nice one, but a greedy money-lover none-the-less.

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Great minds think alike, eh Trace?  wink.gif

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As to why I delete some of your posts, it's because when people ask questions regarding methods of alternative medicine and otherwise, you constantly stick your nose into people's businesses saying that it's a fraud, a fake, and that people are only out for money.  That is not why some people start threads.   Many people start threads because they want their questions answered.  Not because they want to put up with non-believers. 

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Haha, this is funny. I heard eating Fruitloops Cereal, a registered trademark of General Mills will cure your acne forever. Everyone try it. Then yell at me.

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Denise,

I promise I'd read your War and Peace summary if I had the time but the fact that one of the first things you stuck with was about how my acne, according to you, wasn't severe enough to make me "important" changes my mind about reading on. I also found the word troll -- your vocabulary clearly shows your mastery of these topics; but you add nothing new to my thread so please stop posting in it.

My acne was never severe but the way that I grew up made any acne I had seem severe. You wouldn't understand what I mean but when perfection is expected of you and you go through puberty, you think your acne is the worst.

I did see "placebo" and read that part of your post. The placebo only came after a flush because only in a flush do you believe you're cleaning from the inside out. I'm sorry that you spent $5000 just to find that a sugar pill would've helped just as much; I'd be angry too.

And I love the irony of how you tell me to both not post because I don't belong here and to post because you want me to make a fool of myself. Would your last name happen to be Kerry? smile.gif

PS: I know you posted no less than 100 links. Google posts 24,000 at least, I'm sure. But as soon as some of them come from something beyond the website of a zen-master, I'll be sure to actually click them.

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Oh and part of this original thread topic:

Denise once claimed to have flushed parasites from her body. Then I found this about Hulda Clark, another scam-pusher like the lady from SensibleHealth.com...

Patients who "cleanse" their intestines with Clark's recommended herbs may excrete what they think are parasites. However, in one instance I know of, a specimen of "parasites" turned out to be citrus fibers, presumably from grapefruit juice used for the "cleanse." In another, reported in a medical journal, the "parasites" turned out to be ordinary fecal material [6].

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New addition to the thread: "How To Spot A Quacky Website" by Stephen Barrett, MD (oh what a suffix that is found to nonessential only by homeopaths. Would you want to go under the knife with a doctor who isn't an MD? So why pay money to drink their crappy pills?).

I liked this little snippet:

How to spot a quacky website...

Any site used to market herbs or dietary supplements. Although some are useful, I do not believe it is possible to sell them profitably without deception, which typically includes: (a) lack of full disclosure of relevant facts, (B) promotion or sale of products that lack a rational use, and/or © failure to provide advice indicating who should not  use the products. During the past 25 years, I have never encountered a seller who did not do at least one of these three things.

Any site used to market or promote homeopathic products. No such products have been proven effective.

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Ben,

Well, since you don't want to respond to my thread, I'm more than happy to help contribute to yours. From the way you speak and the fact that you did a paper on acne, I'm guessing that we both are in the science field, correct? If so, that may be where our similarities end, for we couldn't think more differently.

I've always thought that the difference between a closed minded or "textbook" scientist and an open-minded or REAL scientist, is that the real scientist will actually go out and research & experiment, experiment, experiment, while the closed-minded one will refuse to even go that far because "it can't possibly be true" Huh?

Aren't scientists supposed to come up with hypotheses, experiments, and theories???? Based on those theories, aren't they supposed to go back and refine their experiments further? Yet sometimes you post information, where that just did not happen. They acheived their "answer", and didn't go any further or bother to THINK about the other variables (ex: chocolate study).

How would ANYTHING get accomplished if people didn't question and didn't challenge the current answers and methods in science? No one believed the earth was round but oh how WRONG they were. So, HOW can anyone make claims to something, particularly against something, when they haven't tried it themselves, let alone haven’t performed any scientific experiments on a particular theory????

How can you say that the liver flush is all about making soap, when as far as we all know, there has been NO Peer Reviewed Controlled Clinical Scientific Study on Liver Flushing to show what it is or isn't doing? Just because there isn’t a study, doesn’t mean it’s not doing something beneficial beyond the placebo effect. Since you chose to ignore additional anecdotal evidence (somewhat understandable) regarding this, all you really have is your opinion!

Speaking of your opinions, what happened to looking at things logically, rationally, and as you love to mention, scientifically?

Has Dan’s regimen been tested in a controlled environment? Whether it has or hasn’t the one of the key elements is Benzoyl Peroxide which we know works for acne. Yet, it didn’t clear me. Along with that it itched, burned, and left marks no matter how small a percentage I used. Not to mention, it bleached my towels and some of my shirts! You live you learn right? Well, that’s why I don’t use BP anymore. Sometimes I wonder how many people on that scar forum used BP to clear them, only to end up with dark or red marks as their aftermath…. Anyway, that’s what I feel for BP and that’s what I will tell people, but I don’t say that it doesn’t work because that is simply not true.

Whereas, you tried an elimination diet and it didn’t clear your acne, so you immediately say to anyone that asks, “that there is no connection between diet and acne,� despite it working for an INCREASING number of us. Granted you will admit people could be allergic, but beyond that, you won’t acknowledge the role that food can play on our hormones. You won't even THINK about the fact that food we eat is composed of the "basic building blocks" of the human body (carbohydrates, protein, & fat) and that maybe somewhere down the line we started eating too much of the wrong ones, or eating too much of those that were altered or contaminated in some way. If one is capable of realizing that, then all the dots start to come together, except for as wonderful of a mind as you may have, this concept seems to be beyond your willingness to grasp. So instead, the last time you opposed this, you used your grandfather as your reasoning tool:

Your post is well thought out but my grandfather became very insulin resistant when he turned 10 or 11 yet he has had 4 zits in his life (he actually remembers the dates). So, clearly, it's not a direct link.

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=26936

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The idea of colonics makes sense and it sounds very exciting (sexy) also!

i am so having a colonic on january so i start the year with my insides sparklin' clean...

also i think i read somebody's post saying that "smoking pot is stupid" or something... well it isn't! it makes me a happy, relaxed person and i think it sorta helps me with my acne too rolleyes.gif

Gerardo *

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This thread is so crazy! I'm watching it with popcorn.

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Gerardo--

Colonics do nothing and can be damaging.

And smoking pot causes lung damage but I smoke like 6 cigs a day so I'm not one to speak.

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Jade,

That's a long post but I don't see what the parts that I read have to do with holistic medicine being a fraud so maybe a thread about whatever you're talking about would be a better idea than writing that in mine.

My science isn't close-minded as it's time saving. Instead of disproving something with theory (which is pretty simple theory, actually) and then trying to go write a thesis, I stop there.

I don't know what else to say because your post kinda jumps around.

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Apoligies if it jumps around ;-) However, that is part of the problem here Ben. You want for us to provide evidence, but when we ask you to do the same you say that you can't bother because it's just to simple to disprove.

Of course, when we do post supporting scientific evidence, you turn around and you chose not to read or to listen to what we say.

Most importantly you don't comment on the tough questions. Instead you choose to ignore them as you did on my thread, as well as others, and it appears you are now doing it again on your own.

Everything that I mentioned has to do with the Liver, the liver flush, as well as dietary holitic approaches. Unless of course you aren't against those people selling overpriced acne diet books or supplements.

Try reading it again or not...

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I once was a great advocate of both liverflushing, fasting, and many other hollistic medicines.. I really don't pay much attention to it now. Ben, I have done 21 flushes, 4 master cleanses (each over 10 days), bowel cleanses in between flushes, parasite cleanses (with probiotic), plus kept a diet of whole wheat, veggies, fruit, no sugar, low carb, no milk, no red meat. Do you know what i realized throughout all of this, I had become obsessed, very mentally obsessed. Being healthy is fine but i think it becomes horribly obseesive for many people. Thats y i say relax everybody about this stuff, don't become addicted to the idea of being cleansed all the time. Also go see a real doctor first, don't knock modern medicine. Its amazing what blood tests can do to determine exactly what your body needs, For example garlic has a very bad effect on some people (and they usually don't know it) yet it was the fad for a while. So you could be hurting your body with the wrong treatments and supplements without knowing. See a realy doctor or at least a hollistic doctor that has graduated from med school. Hollistic way is very hit and miss find out exactly what your body needs. Also Denise..... you are being very hypocritical, you yell at him for being immature and not excepting your lifestyle, yet you go right back and give even more childish comments on what he believes in. Y are you so much more right then him????? Yuo both seek the same goal and for thsoe who are new to all this don't expect this to be the magic bullet for many these methods fail, althoguh i have no doubt that this does work for some as well. By the way through all that i've been through probably more then anyone else on this board, I have still not been able to cure my acne. So good luck with cleansing but please take it with a grain of salt.

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AFI,

I agree with what you said 100%. Although I would suggest that you also eliminate wheat as most of us that eliminated (most) grains had to do this. Even some people that did all those flushes, still had to eliminate certain grains from their diet.

Of course, there so many reasons why acne could be causing someone problems and that's why I agree that they should go to a doctor, in particular an Endocrinologist. Did you go? If so, what did they tell you? Did they check your hormones, etc?

Thanxs

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AFI:

Um, no.....you obviously misunderstand what has happened here. Ben insists that liverflushing does nothing for acne and that the intrahepatic stones that are passed are nothing more than saponified olive oil and juice.

As SweetJade and many others have noted, Ben doesn't answer tough questions that are posed to him. He just simply sounds a mantra over and over...the same one. He IS childish and immature. His debate tactics (if you want to call them that) amount to his opinion. He insists that he is correct and that intrahepatic stones don't even exist. He even is now implying that parasites don't have human hosts.

Those two statements on their face are bald-face lies. He is really just outright embarassing himself. Look up the word: intrahepatic stone in a medical dictionary. Good grief....the word exists because they do exist. :eek: rolleyes.gif

I have never given advice on this board that I felt was radical, and I'm not "obsessesd" with cleansing. I eat junk occasionally and don't breakout anymore. If you knew how I had struggled with acne for so many years and finally figured out what was wrong with me, you'd understand my passion to help people. So many desperate people private message me almost everyday wanting help. That is because their doctors and derms could never offer help. Many of these people have done everything including taking rounds of Accutane.

I feel sorry for Ben. He is childish and doesn't even understand some very basic biological components as they relate to how acne forms. He even accuses Julia Chang of being greedy....because she sells herbs? Does that even make sense?

This thread is like the twilight zone.

I have said on this board a few times that I'm not against medical doctors because one saved my life when I was 5 years old. I was one of the first recipients of open heart surgery in this country utilizing the heart/lung machine. I was born with a hole in my aorta and would have died. I owe my very life to medical science.

However, medical science falls very short of treating chronic conditions. It's great for trauma surgery but it falls very short otherwise. This is just a fact.

As it stands, people will see Ben for what and who he is. He makes so many embarassing statements on this board and in this very thread, that I just shake my head. If people are desperate enough to treat their acne, then they will do just that. I will continue to get private messages from people wanting help and have questions. I'm sure SweetJade will too.

So at the end of the day, people will read and make up their own minds.

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I am in no way belittling the effect that holistic choices of members of this board have had on them. Heck look at all the stuff I have done, obviosly i must support it to a point and support healthy lifestyles. My problem is that i have seen many members of the board post numerous times how "medical science is a joke it could never help anyone" and this is ridiculous. Denise I understand you don't feel that way, and since you're already an experienced flusher and have cured your acne its your choice to not see a real doctor. But there are a lot of "newbie" flushers on this board who constantly post about what should they eat that won't break them out, or go on ridiculously long fasts (this is a big problem for curezone) anmd this board has brainwashed many of them into thinking a doctor can't help. A doctor can examine the whole picture and determine whats wrong, and tell you if your liver is ill or your kidneys so your not just taking shots in the dark. A healthy lifestyle is important, but those on this board who ahve maybe flushed 3 or 4 times have no right to go on a doctor bashing rampage like they have ...... no offense but niko or whatever your name is comes to mind. There is no reason that hollistic and conventional medicine can't be used together and if you absolutely hate conventional doctors at least seek a naturopath with a phd so they can at least outline your regimen for cleaning and healing and you can get guidance on this stuff. I'm also not just not supporting Ben i thinks it ridiculous for him to discount all forms of holistic medicine. What we need to do is find a middle ground.

SweetJade - I am actually seeing another doctor this wednesday to get some bloodwork done to see how I'm doing, so i'll let you know how it turns out. I do try to avoid wheat to an extent but with my budget sometimes a loaf of good old fashion whole grain bread will have to do.

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AFI: I think that what people have contended on the board here is that if doctors really understood what causes acne, then no one would have acne..... :wink:

I think that, generally speaking, dermatologists have notoriously treated acne with the wrong treatments and given horrible advice. Many of them still treat acne indefinately with antibiotics.....this is the "treatment" that literally gave me dangerous liver toxicity and candida overgrowth that has taken years to control. Most of them also say that what you eat doesn't have ANYTHING to do with acne. Both of these approaches to treatment are not only irresponsible, but lead to outright harm for the patient.

The issue for most people like Niko, myself, and others is the double standard that people hold for allopathic doctors and alternative doctors. Allopathic doctors cause countless deaths. This is just a fact. I can post statistics on this. Everyone knows this. It's on the news on a regular basis. We also know that prescription meds cause deaths and many complications as well. So the point here is that skeptics never mention those statistics, but are quick to point the finger at holistic or alternative practitioners. Ben's position is always to go to the medical profession for answers and fully trust their opinions, no matter what. It's one thing to believe that allopathic medicine has all the answers, it's quite another to never counter anyone's well-reasoned, well thought out hypothesis and experience with anything but scorn and mocking.

People turn to holistic medicine, I'm fully convinced, because the allopathic community has let them down to a great degree. That was certainly the case for me. I still recall the day at age 24 when I flushed my antibiotics down the toilet because they just didn't work, and my acne was actually becoming WORSE. The only reason I never went on Accutane was because the thought of taking it scared me to death.

I don't believe that doctors are evil, but I believe they are ill-informed and ignorant of some very basic biological principles. There are medical doctors who are now integrating alternative methods, and I believe that those doctors are the best to go to. My best friend went to one of these in Tulsa and she cured many things.

I just wanted to clarify where people are coming from when it comes to treating acne. I'm sorry, but the medical profession has let most people down when it comes to treating chronic, stubborn acne. That's where people on this forum are coming from. If you look at all of the symptoms I had, you'll note that I had many health problems; some quite serious. The allopathic community had NO answers for any of these issues. The irisitis was quite severe. All I could do was get eyedrops from the doctor. This condition consists of severe swelling of the cornea; it's quite painful and causes many problems. Can you imagine how scary it is thinking you may go blind from an eye condition no one understands? I do. Why did my cornea swell? What was going on in my body to cause such a reaction? Seems like some kind of allergic reaction, but what exactly caused it?

Do you understand what I'm saying? I havn't had an episode of this swelling since I got on a very powerful pycnogenol that has been clinically tested in Europe. This isn't something that the medical community had a clue how to treat, but I did my own research and now have no problems whatsoever with my eyes; matter of fact, my optician cannot believe it when I come in for my eye exam. He always comments on how healthy my eyes are even though I wear extended wear contact lenses. He says that I'm literally a one in a million.....I have eyes that have no scar tissue from lack of oxygen, and my blood vessels are incredibly healthy. He really just cannot get over it. He shakes his head every time he checks my eyes. The pycnogenol I take has been clinically tested for eye health. I even told him about the supplement!

So the bottom line for me is that doctors have their place, but they aren't very good at diagnosing or addressing root problems or causes. They treat symptoms, but they don't treat the root causes. I believe that's the conclusion that many people who have looked to doctors have concluded, just like myself.

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Holy shit.....is this still going on? :eh:

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Tracey don't be fooled by Ben's new and improved, polite, and apologetic demeanor.  The theads that become too divisive, where Ben "water cured my acne" Kweller posted and was condescending, rude, and argumentative are the only ones deleted.

Ben is a divisive, nasty troll who doesn't have acne, never certainly had BAD acne, and is only here to cause trouble. 

No one wants him here, and when he is proven wrong, he won't comment.  Jordan Rubens' life story is a prime example of someone for whom allopathic medicine had no cure, and he came across something as radical as "homeostatic soil microorgansims".  That's certainly not something that medical science has utilized or endorsed on any significant level.  And that's the whole point here.  Ben Kweller is just a know-it-all whose sole purpose seems to be to cause trouble.  And yes, he is rude, condescending, and insults people by inferring that they are too retarded to read and research and then decide for themselves what works and what doesn't.  I believe that everyone agrees on this. 

I'm quite sure that I'm coming off as pretty blunt at this time, but to be honest, I don't care.  Many of us who have tried everything under the sun and are now free of acne, no thanks to dermatologists and doctors, are sick of people like Mr. NoAcne Kweller coming on to this board as a troll trying to pick fights.  Now that you are coming down hard on him and he senses he is in trouble, his demeanor changes and he becomes contrite and apologetic.  Ain't that special..... :sick:  rolleyes.gif

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Ben you never had bad acne and that's the main reason why you hold no weight with many of us regular posters. 

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