Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Holistic Frauds

363 posts in this topic

Mhm -- the mod at that forum is a hypocrite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jc.

He told me that I was being pessimistic and that if I wanted to put down holistic health that I should start other threads. I did and it lead to good discussion but, lucky lucky, he's also the biggest liverflush supporter on the board so, coincidentally, my thread was moved here.

He wants me to take part in real discussion yet then moves my informative thread to a "lounge" forum.

Censorship gone wild on the board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very little censorship? JC has TOLD me that he has deleted my threads because they go against the "pro-flush" first post. Someone says, "I've had terrible acne, I'm gonna flush," and I say, "Alright but in my opinion, it won't do anything because... _____." That post, the next day, gets deleted.

I'm not on JC's ass because he's the easy one to pick on. He is, frankly, the one who tells me time and time again that my opinion is not important because it doesn't go with the "pro..." ideals of the forum. It seems that telling him that the forum is for the discussion, not for the support, of these treatments is the only thing that makes him think, "Ok... I'll stop deleting your opinions."

I don't just argue and complain. I only do so when I have been wronged, or have an opinion that no one else has the balls to express since there is so much of a censoring-ideal here. I guess he is just doing his "job" except I wish he'd try to separate his opinions from mine before flexing his power.

Now back to the thread's purpose -- more fraud exposé! Come on, ya'll. Contributez-vous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm...... :think: I didn't realize that JC was deleting your posts. I may have spoken too soon. However, I still dislike people bad-mouthing our mods. They do us all a service here FOR FREE and do a great job.

Also, perhaps if your posts were not so belittling and condescending, your words might actually carry a bit more weight? You might wanna take a look at that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not try to be condescending. My issue is that when I see someone (won't name names) promoting liver flushing, I call it a placebo effect (and cite evidence), and then they give me their life story, how it has helped them, and say that I am an ignoramus for even wanting to disbelieve their miracle cure; I won't sit and say "Alright, I believe you."

I do not look for arguments but it seems telling people the truth makes them defensive.

Regardless, I really do want this thread to get back on track. If I jumped on him without merit, then I apologize now; it's just the historic precedent shows that it would be the easiest guess.

Now -- ANYONE want to contribute to the first post?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tracey don't be fooled by Ben's new and improved, polite, and apologetic demeanor. The theads that become too divisive, where Ben "water cured my acne" Kweller posted and was condescending, rude, and argumentative are the only ones deleted.

Ben does not have acne, certainly never had BAD acne, and is only here to cause trouble.

No one wants him here, and when he is proven wrong, he won't comment. Jordan Rubens' life story is a prime example of someone for whom allopathic medicine had no cure, and he came across something as radical as "homeostatic soil microorgansims". That's certainly not something that medical science has utilized or endorsed on any significant level. And that's the whole point here. Ben Kweller is just a know-it-all whose sole purpose seems to be to cause trouble. And yes, he is rude, condescending, and insults people by inferring that they are too retarded to read and research and then decide for themselves what works and what doesn't. I believe that everyone agrees on this.

I'm quite sure that I'm coming off as pretty blunt at this time, but to be honest, I don't care. Many of us who have tried everything under the sun and are now free of acne, no thanks to dermatologists and doctors, are sick of people like Mr. NoAcne Kweller coming on to this board as a troll trying to pick fights. Now that you are coming down hard on him and he senses he is in trouble, his demeanor changes and he becomes contrite and apologetic. Ain't that special..... :sick:rolleyes.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to have a lot of anger, Denise.

If you don't want to contribute to the purpose of this thread, please go back to the zen convention you came from -- I will spend no more time arguing with someone who simply comments to put me to down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just shows you how smart you are, Mr. NoAcne Kweller. I am not a proponent of new age spirituality. That's YOUR stereotype.

You are the one with an anger problem....anger that people would dare do something outside of conventional medicine. You're gonna save us all from ourselves.

That's the problem here, you are a troll who trolls the net out of boredom, and you happen to find a place with a lenient posting policy, and you have declared war. I have no anger at all. I'm challenging your "new and improved" image before the moderators. That's all.... smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Alright. So would you like to contribute a story about liver flushing being a fraud or colonics endangering people? If not, please stay away from this thread as you would be violating a board policy.

Fighting is against the rules here.

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW I'm scaid! :ph34r:  :shifty:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BenKWeller,

Why don't you ask me before assuming that I moved or deleted your thread?

Point of fact...I didn't move your thread to the lounge. I was perfectly happy to have it in the diet/holistic health forum. Another mod must've moved it to the lounge, and I'm sure that s/he had her reasons.

You are very welcome to have discussions on holistic health and alternative remedies as they interest you so much. As to why you feel the need to dedicate nearly 100% of your time in putting them down, I do not know nor do I care. You have the right to lead your own life.

As to why I delete some of your posts, it's because when people ask questions regarding methods of alternative medicine and otherwise, you constantly stick your nose into people's businesses saying that it's a fraud, a fake, and that people are only out for money. That is not why some people start threads. Many people start threads because they want their questions answered. Not because they want to put up with non-believers.

Example: If someone starts a thread, "Tell me about your colonic experience, I just had one!". If you've never had a colonic before, then how can you possibly justify posting your opinion in this thread? They obviously want to hear other people's experiences. Not about someone who has never tried it before. It's all common sense.

If someone posts, "Do you believe in colonics?", then post away.

Like Tracy said, we should all respect each other and each others' space. This is his thread to vent in, and we should all give him this space.

_____________________________________________________

This is why I think this thread is ok. Everyone else...let this thread continue on as it should. For those who don't believe in holistic health, they will discuss. If not, then simply don't click on this thread.

Ben, although you do owe me one, I don't not want nor need your apology for accusing me of moving this thread.

jc


Life is but a breath. Here is my story...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must admit, I do agree with Ben in that we should do our best to discern the holistic freaks out there who are only out to make a quick buck from the people who honestly desire to find natural solutions to their health problems and, in turn, would like to share that info with others.

To insist that money hungry holistic freaks do not exist is to live in denial, IMO, because they truly do exist and some of them prey on people who have lost hope with western medicine and that is just wrong. And the other side of the coin is that natural remedies do help people. Many people in many ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that anyone denies that there are hustlers and snake oil salesman out there, I know I definately do not. I think though, that the things that Ben talks about aren't proven to fall into those categories. Liverflushing only costs a few bucks. Colonics of course cost money, but anyone can spend a few bucks on an enema setup from the drugstore (I have one I got from Walgreens).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with what you're saying Tracy, and I think that the whole point of the boards is that here people are not influenced by a 'quick buck' - people here are (generally) discussing their own personal experiences with acne treatments, which allows us to decide for ourselves whether the treatment is likely to work for us.

There is no question that Denise, jc or any of the other advocates of liver flushing on this board believes that it has helped clear their skin. The point is that they have actually tried it for themselves. From what I see, Ben has not tried liver flushing, or at least if he has, it has not been undertaken in the recommended way.

Therefore, I tend to value the opinions of Denise, jc and other supporters of liver flushing more than Ben's opinions, because they are speaking from experience whereas he is merely speaking from assumption.

On the other hand, I think it's good that we can have discussions like this on the board. In some ways, people like Ben help people to consider things like flushing more seriously and do more research before deciding whether they wish to undertake it.

smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done a liver flush twice. The first time I got nothing....the second time I got mushy green peas. smile.gif

But I thought we were talking about Holistic Frauds in this thread? Isn't that the topic of this thread? :think:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

smile.gif

The reason I've never done a flush isn't like "oh man, I don't want to be proved wrong," but just because I have a background in chemistry, as soon as I heard about it, and people's results, I was surprised no one had ever caught on before. My personal experience comes from many units on saponification throughout high school and college (or what I took of it) where we produced varying degrees of soap with oil (often olive) and a caustic (this ranged from alkaline lyes like NaOH to hydrochloric acid and vinegar). With vinegar, we always found that the soap would be very mushy (like peas), and would disintegrate easily.

I've never done saponification with citric acid (as in grapefruit...) but knowing from the similarity in pH, results would not be too different. Mix that with the fact that digestive enzymes in the stomach add more acid to a mix makes it very easy to see how acid can both catalyze the "liver flush" reaction to go on and supply the acid needed, too.

It's not that I'm closeminded and just want to put it down -- but every "good case" of these stones being anything but crappy soap has been on CureZone; and that place is a hell hole. As a guideline -- any place that tries to "educate" you in order to sell a product afterward is bad (so if a website tells you all about liver problems and then says, "By our enzyme fixing...," RUN!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Ben.....then the same could be said for this site since Dan is now selling BP Gel, right? Perhaps people simply find something that works for them and then conveniently offer it for sale on their informative site?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm. In some ways I agree with this last statement. But some sites do prove it wrong. After all, isn't that basically what acne.org is doing? It's suggesting that in order to battle acne, you could try benzoyl peroxide...

....lol, wait a minute, I just checked and Tracy has already posted this!

Great minds think alike, eh Trace? wink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well you have to consider the history of Dan's site. He, for years, promotes a product he was not making any profit on; one that could be found in a store by anyone walking and would make Dan no money. In other words, he spent web space ($$) to say "This worked for me, here's the science why, here's how we know because it's been studied by real doctors, etc..."

A site like "Sensible Health" (so named to try gaining some credibility, by the way) says, basically, "Yes... you can do this many ways... but OUR PATENTED UNIQUE FORMULA IS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO GET RESULTS." It's as simple as that.

Dan sells a product that has history and research that backs up his claims; liverflushies have CureZone.com.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And to anyone thinking I'm against EVERY alternative medicine, it's not true. There are, in fact, several highly known "Alternative Medicine practioners" who debunk liverflushing and colonics on a regular basis. Dr. Andrew Weil (a real doctor!) claims that:

1) Liver flushing produces soap; as I've always said.

2) Colonics are unnecessary and potentially dangerous:

I'm often asked about colonic irrigation as a means of "purification." This is totally unnecessary. The entire lining of the colon sloughs off and is regenerated every day. The best way to care for the colon is to let its own natural physiological actions keep it clean and in good working order. You can help by eating a high-fiber diet, drinking plenty of water, and exercising to help move your bowels regularly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, your "take" on Julia Chang is quite mistaken. I have spoken with Ms. Chang twice by phone. She doesn't push her products on anyone BUT her products DO work. Many people testify to this. She is a biochemist and a scientist and she obviously knows what she is talking about. She helps people and has a reputation of having the utmost integrity. She will call ANYONE who calls her and she will call back at her expense and talk as long as you need. She is very well respected and well educated.

Nevertheless, it's NOT necessary to use her PROVEN herbal tinctures to flush, and for you to make her motives evil is flat-out wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can help by eating a high-fiber diet, drinking plenty of water, and exercising to help move your bowels regularly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This topic is now closed to further replies.