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Holistic Frauds


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#1 BenKweller

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 12:33 AM

Let's have some on the forums here who are not just looking for a quick fix discuss the reasons they believe colonics, liverflushing, purges, etc... are a fraud and based on false advertisements by holisticians aka business-men-hippies.

I'll start with colonics...:

QUOTE
In the 19th Century, the intestinal toxicity theory became popular. The idea was that poisons from petrifying intestinal bacteria entered the body through the gut wall. Constipation was to be avoided. Numerous remedies were advocated by the health gurus of the day. Yogurt was said to create a friendlier form of bacteria. Bran was advocated for "roughage" to speed up the elimination process. The folk saying "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" is rooted in the idea of increasing roughage. Hydropaths advocated drinking large amounts of water to wash out the alimentary canal from above. John Harvey Kellogg performed surgery to reshape the colon for more rapid elimination. The laxative industry grew prosperous on the idea of bowel "regularity."

Today we understand more clearly the importance of dietary fiber, hydration, and so forth. Medical scientists also know that these have nothing to do with intestinal toxicity. Early in this century a medical researcher produced all of the symptoms of constipation (dry mouth, lethargy, etc) by packing the rectum with sterile cotton. Studies done in the 1920s found that "high colonic irrigations" were useless and did not even reach very high even when fairly long tubes were employed [2]. Studies in the 1930s found that colonic irrigation was contraindicated for treating ulcerative colitis, an intestinal disorder which did permit bacterial contamination of body through the gut wall. In 1985, the Infectious Disease Branch of the California Department of Health Services stated:

    Neither physicians nor chiropractors should be performing colonic irrigations. We are not aware of any scientifically proven health benefit of this procedure, yet we are well aware of its hazards." [3]

The hazards include illness and death by contamination of colonics equipment [4] and death by electrolyte depletion [5,6]. In addition to the physiological upsets, colonic apparatus can also perforate the intestinal wall leading to septicemia (bacterial contamination of the blood), a very serious disorder.

Colonic irrigation should be considered a health fetish. The ideas of "cleansing" and "detoxification" have no physiological significance, but they do have emotional meaning to people who believe themselves to be "unclean" or "impure" in some way. Just as the ancient Egyptians did, health neurotics may temporarily relieve their health anxieties by colonics, laxatives, and purges.


From the National Council Against Health Fraud; great motto: "Enhancing Freedom of Choice through Reliable Health Information."

Any other contributors?

Disclaimer: This post is meant to stir up a scandal. If you don't want to debate, stay out.

#2 BenKweller

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 11:00 AM

Alright, since clearly the only ones that come to this forum regularly (besides me) actually "believe" in the scams; I'll make the first case of liverflushing...

Restating that it's simply the saponification reaction between a caustic (citric acid can be this) and olive oil.

I have yet to see anyone credible mention that they were able to produce stones without using large amounts of oil (which, strangely enough, is the most necessary ingredient in soap making). Olive oil, too, is often used because it produces very "silky-like" soap (which would make it easy to "come out as stones").

#3 Guest_Tracy_*

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 12:08 PM

Hey Ben,

I've been reading your comments for quite some time and it seems like you're on this anti-holistic crusade. I wonder why that is? :think:

#4 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 12:20 PM

I don't know what to think about some of these. I know that if your constipated(most are to some degree) all the toxins will go back into your system creating more work for your liver. However I don't know if you have to go as far as colonics. I have always ate a lot of fiber since I was little and I can't remember a time when I was constipated so I don't think I need a colonic.

As for the liver flushing that's even harder for me to pick a side on. Olive oil does help dissolve stones and increase bile flow, which has been proven by countless studies. However the extentof hte stones that some of these people say come out of their liver is insane. If it was that plugged up they couldn't produce very much bile and therefore couldn't digest properly causing way more serious problems than acne.

But if people get clear on this than good for them. However so much goes into these things and so many people are doing 50 other things at the same time that it's hard to pinpoint exactly whats working and how.

I've never tried any of these. I've never had bad acne and i always ate what I wanted. I have been spot free for 3 weeks with my hormonal solution that people like mookis think is crazy(comprises vitamins, certain foods and drinks(I don't omit foods but I added more of others), and exercises and breathing techniques to calm myself(most people don't breath from their diaphram which is using only 1/3 of your lung capacity).

#5 flipside

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 12:52 PM

hi blackbird, what is your "hormonal solution"?

#6 BenKweller

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 12:59 PM

QUOTE(blackbirdbeatle @ Aug 1 2004, 12:07 PM)
I don't know what to think about some of these. I know that if your constipated(most are to some degree) all the toxins will go back into your system creating more work for your liver. However I don't know if you have to go as far as colonics. I have always ate a lot of fiber since I was little and I can't remember a time when I was constipated so I don't think I need a colonic.

As for the liver flushing that's even harder for me to pick a side on. Olive oil does help dissolve stones and increase bile flow, which has been proven by countless studies. However the extentof hte stones that some of these people say come out of their liver is insane. If it was that plugged up they couldn't produce very much bile and therefore couldn't digest properly causing way more serious problems than acne.

But if people get clear on this than good for them. However so much goes into these things and so many people are doing 50 other things at the same time that it's hard to pinpoint exactly whats working and how.

I've never tried any of these. I've never had bad acne and i always ate what I wanted. I have been spot free for 3 weeks with my hormonal solution that people like mookis think is crazy(comprises vitamins, certain foods and drinks(I don't omit foods but I added more of others), and exercises and breathing techniques to calm myself(most people don't breath from their diaphram which is using only 1/3 of your lung capacity).

No -- if you are constipated, it does not go back into your body or get reabsorbed through anything; it just gets plugged up. The National Council Against Health Fraud has been citing for years how this belief was accepted in the early 20th century but disproved time and time again by scientific observation in later years.

Liver flushing is stupid because there are no "stones" in your liver that cause any kind of issues. Why I'm so against it is because of all the flush junkies who come online and promote 16 year old kids to do something this stupid and say that the reason they have acne is because they have polluted their liver so much in those years that it cannot clear them. My main argument is that if we are so clogged up at 16, what happens to people who live past 80? Do their livers stop working at 30?

Anyone clearing from it clears from a placebo effect. The source I listed in the start of this thread clearly points out that people feel "clean" and "healthy' after a colonic. Good. But it does nothing but satisfy their mind into making them believe they are being cleaned. It's all BS.

And my "anti-holistic" crusade is simply because people have lost the sense of reasoning to the point that they will easily badmouth dermatologists and doctors as evil businessmen yet forget that ANYONE pushing holistics (in a book, on a webpage, etc...) is doing it for revenue as well. They are new-age hippies who also believe in the energy vortexes in Arizona.

#7 Denise2

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 01:54 PM

No stones in the liver you say? Why have I provided links to research done on that very thing? Why do Chinese autopsy experts say that 1/3 of all adults in China have intrahepatic stones? You want the link again?

What the heck are you talking about?

And why is it that people who use lemon and olive oil as a base for their salad dressings never got "stones" when mixing the two ingredients together? Your inability to answer simple questions about this, your lack of commenting on people who have ultrasounds that prove beyond all doubt that their stones were gone after performing a liverflush shows your true colors. I even demanded that you go do your own experiment at home proving beyond all doubt that olive oil and lemon juice or grapefruit juice combined together caused saponfication. You have yet to do so.

Why is that?

#8 24 Hour Revenge Therapy

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 03:22 PM

I know that all this liver flush stuff can't possibly do all the things that people often claim, but seriously, most of this shit is totally relative, and there are very few absolutes. By saying all things are definitely not going to effect acne, you just make yourself look like a closed-minded asshole. Diet and colon cleanses won't work for everyone, but I think we have all seen or read enough about it to know that some of these things have worked for at least some people, even if just a little bit. Yes, the things we read about acne must be approached with some degree of skepticism, but if you refuse to invest some faith into anything, you'll never find your solution.

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 03:25 PM

QUOTE(24 Hour Revenge Therapy @ Aug 1 2004, 03:09 PM)
I know that all this liver flush stuff can't possibly do all the things that people often claim, but seriously, most of this shit is totally relative, and there are very few absolutes.  By saying all things are definitely not going to effect acne, you just make yourself look like a closed-minded asshole.  Diet and colon cleanses won't work for everyone, but I think we have all seen or read enough about it to know that some of these things have worked for at least some people, even if just a little bit.  Yes, the things we read about acne must be approached with some degree of skepticism, but if you refuse to invest some faith into anything, you'll never find your solution.

Exactly! :clap:

#10 BenKweller

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE(Denise2 @ Aug 1 2004, 01:41 PM)
No stones in the liver you say?  Why have I provided links to research done on that very thing?  Why do Chinese autopsy experts say that 1/3 of all adults in China have intrahepatic stones?  You want the link again?

What the heck are you talking about? 

And why is it that people who use lemon and olive oil as a base for their salad dressings never got "stones"  when mixing the two ingredients together?  Your inability to answer simple questions about this, your lack of commenting on people who have ultrasounds that prove beyond all doubt that their stones were gone after performing a liverflush shows your true colors. I even demanded that you go do your own experiment at home proving beyond all doubt that olive oil and lemon juice or grapefruit juice combined together caused saponfication.  You have yet to do so. 

Why is that?

Haha, such a humorous post. I value your sense of comedic timing.

My favorite here is where you say, "Why do Chinese autopsy experts say that 1/3 of all adults in China have intrahepatic stones?" Chinese experts also believe accupuncture can cure damn near any disease but I doubt putting a hole in your ass will cure AIDS.

In regards to why salad dressing doesn't produce stones, the answer lies in that you are not starving yourself when you eat salad. You have other things in your stomach to disrupt saponification by reducing the ability of time the chemicals can interact. However, when you fill your stomach with only olive oil and caustic, you can be sure to produce some type of reaction, regarldess of how sloppy.

The fact that your greatest research is done online and with Curezone's line of new-age dopes makes me question why exactly you are attempting to change my mind about anything. If you find research by any REAL doctor who claims that liver flushes have positive effects, I will GLADLY listen -- I'd love for it to be true.

But as of what is known, it's just a nice placebo that relies on chemistry, not digestive function, to make people think they are doing something that they're not.

#11 edenfield

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 06:52 PM

i've eaten vanilla haagan daaz ice cream (about 1 and a half jars) and produced stones

as well as eating berries and cream

#12 BenKweller

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 07:04 PM

Good to know. Yeah, I've sneezed too hard and produced them, too.

Just a reminder, this thread is written for those who have stories of how holistic medicine is a money-making fraud for hippies. If you have nothing to contribute in that regard, please feel free to read another thread.

#13 24 Hour Revenge Therapy

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 12:08 AM

Smoking pot is stupid.

#14 Andrei

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:21 AM

BenKweller: Are you just basing your claims on one such passe study?

biggrin.gif Umm... Placebo medicines are fraudulent, and is accepted in the medical realm. It's even more fraudulent than "Holistic Frauds", yet they are effective.

biggrin.gif The physicist who proposed about Blackholes eating up everything in space and leaving nothing, now some 20 years after, is taking back what he said... claiming only this year that blackholes can leave some leftovers survive... Things change.

rolleyes.gif Can the following be a proof...?
user posted image user posted image user posted image
J. Rubin, Ph.D. was late 19 y/o on first pic, year 1994, suffering from Crohn's disease... some gut sickness... the last photo shows his improvement when he's 25 (middle pic is 21 y/o). He added homeostatic organism diet and full family of probiotics (Primal Defense) in to his regimen, before even being about to die.. He's now founder of gardenoflifeusa.com ..search google: "Jordan Rubin" inspiring story.

#15 Crooked I

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:48 AM

Cheque please!

#16 LoveGreenSmoothies

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:58 AM

Jordan Rubin didn't do liver cleanses. He just started to eat pure foods and take really potent probiotics.

It was a great book. I had a whole thread on it here.

#17 sadcaroline

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:02 AM

i think jordan rubin is a complete inspiration to anyone with a difficult health issue, especially ones that 'doctors' deem uncurable, his life gives me hope smile.gif

#18 LoveGreenSmoothies

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:16 AM

Did you read the book, Caroline?

#19 sadcaroline

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:30 AM

only parts of it emma, i bought it the other day and havent had a chance to finish it yet... tongue.gif

#20 LoveGreenSmoothies

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 08:25 AM

Let me know how you like it smile.gif