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#1 SweetJade1980

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 10:12 PM

Hi all,

There are a nice number of people here that mean well, by wanting to protect members from fraudulent, damaging, or illogical methods, but some of them have failed to consider a few things regarding the body’s hormone synthesis pathway and gene expression. Perhaps we can use this to form a dialogue and discuss such possibilities.

So, first of all, maybe we should break it down with the facts. Doctors and scientists will admit that :

-Androgens affect our ability to produce acne

-Insulin Levels affects our ability to produce Androgens

-Dietary choices affect our ability to produce Insulin.



-Insulin Sensitizing drugs affects Cholesterol levels

-Insulin Sensitizing drugs affects Androgen levels

-Insulin Sensitizing drugs affects Acne production



-Dietary changes (reducing insulin response) affect Cholesterol levels

-Dietary changes (ditto) affect Androgen levels

-[Dietary changes (ditto) affect Acne production]


See a connection? I do. Yet, that is not what some members of this board have concluded.

Based on what other members have repeatedly said, it seems that regardless of the variety of efforts at explanations (for which there isn't always one) and numerous recent clinical data presented, "there is NO possible way that Dietary changes (reducing insulin response) affects Acne production!!! "

Is that what those of you that don’t believe in a diet-acne connection are saying with absolute certainty?

Well, I have never said that the "wrong" diet will always, 100% of the time, give people acne, but for a nice percentage of acne sufferers this is the case. Of course there's the other option of some people being Allergic, Intolerant, or Chemically Sensitive to foods, that sometimes also lead to the diet-hormone-acne connection as well.

I usually choose to talk about Insulin Resistance over the other dietary & environmental factors (stress, toxins, etc) that can contribute to acne, because it's one that most people shouldn't argue about; it’s the one thing that connects a variety of age groups and a host of health and hormonal problems:

Everyone goes through Insulin Resistance during Puberty

Women go through Insulin Resistance during Pregnancy

Certain Hormonal disorders are associated or attributed to Insulin Resistance

Certain Health disorders are associated or attributed to Insulin Resistance

http://www.ncbi.nlm....8&dopt=Abstract
http://www.scienceda...11025071810.htm
http://www.umm.edu/d...-info/gesta.htm
http://www.mwilliams.../conditions.htm


[quote]Since Type II diabetes essentially did not exist 100 years ago, it's obvious that a change in the environment has created the disease, but there is genetic susceptibility on top of that.Very little is known about the genetics of diabetes other than that there is a gene-environment interaction with multiple genes involved. It's reasonable to think that when linkage analyses are done, researchers will find diabetes-related genes; they may be primary-related diabetes genes or modifying genes, such as obesity-related genes.

…..  Genetic factors combine with environmental factors to cause diabetes; diet and exercise can control diabetes.

….. Family history, obesity, and high plasma insulin are the main indicators; insulin resistance is a predictor of type II diabetes, even if a child feels fine at the time he or she is tested. Also, when a child is exposed to high sugars in utero (when the mother has gestational diabetes) the child has an eight-fold greater risk of getting diabetes as a teenager.
http://darwin.nmsu.e...es/disease.html [/quote]

Key phrases here are “change in the environment� and “genetic susceptibility� those two things right there combine to create one of my favorite phrases, “various gene-environment interactions determine what diseases will be expressed in an individual.� Thus, this would account for why not everyone with Insulin Resistance had Acne, let alone are overweight, obese, nor has high cholesterol, among other “symptoms� of this metabolic syndrome. Again, a syndrome or “a clustering of risk factors for a number of disorders,� means that you don't have to have all the “symptoms� or characteristics, but just a few. You could have 1 or 12, but only your "gene-environment interactions" can determine this.


[quote]Although 1 of 3 American adults has some degree of insulin resistance, most produce enough insulin to maintain nondiabetic glucose levels. However, Garvey estimates about 25% of individuals with IRS progress to overt diabetes, and many more are at significantly increased risk for heart attack and stroke.

…. "Insulin resistance, which results from defects in insulin's ability to stimulate muscle cell glucose transport, has complex genetic and environmental causes. We now suspect the syndrome occurs early in life, eventually producing the cluster of abnormalities that confer disease risk," Garvey says.  http://www.health.ua...asp?durki=64563 [/quote]


[quote] What are the symptoms of insulin resistance and pre-diabetes?

Insulin resistance and pre-diabetes usually have no symptoms. You may have one or both conditions for several years without noticing anything. If you have a severe form of insulin resistance, you may get dark patches of skin, usually on the back of your neck. Sometimes people get a dark ring around their neck. Other possible sites for these dark patches include elbows, knees, knuckles, and armpits. This condition is called acanthosis nigricans.
If you have a mild or moderate form of insulin resistance, blood tests may show normal or high blood glucose and high levels of insulin at the same time. http://diabetes.nidd...ulinresistance/ [/quote]


[quote]In their study, Korytkowski and her colleagues distributed questionnaires to 28 women with type 1 diabetes and 32 women with type 2 diabetes, and to 32 women who were diabetes-free.

The researchers found that women with type 1 diabetes were more likely to experience acne than women without that form of the disease, and women with type 2 diabetes were more likely to report going long stretches without menstruating.

Both acne and long menstrual cycles can be signs of excess androgens in the body, Korytkowski said. http://www.blackwome...e/News2?id=5913 [/quote]


[quote]The presentation of children who have type 2 diabetes is typically more insidious than that of those with type 1 diabetes. Children and adolescents with type 1 diabetes are usually ill, whereas patients who have type 2 diabetes often seek medical care because of excessive weight gain and fatigue as a result of insulin resistance. A history of increased thirst and polyuria is relatively uncommon in our experience. In some patients, androgen-mediated problems such as acne, hirsutism, and menstrual disturbances may be the chief complaint. Except for concerns about excessive weight gain, the history is often somewhat vague and needs clarification. Many times, parents say that their children do not seem to eat much, and that observation is consistent with the need for fewer calories to maintain weight in the face of decreased lean body mass.6 
http://journal.diabe...N22000/pg52.htm  [/quote]


[quote]The cornerstone of management of PCOS in adolescence includes either a combination oral contraceptive or progestin. Consideration of insulin-sensitizing agents, antiandrogens, topical treatments for acne, and various treatments for hair removal are dependent on the patient's symptoms and concerns. Healthy eating, regular exercise, and for the overweight adolescent, weight reduction, are encouraged to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and type II diabetes mellitus. Numerous studies have shown that weight loss and exercise decrease androgen levels, improve insulin sensitivity, and lead to the resumption of ovulation. http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14644809 (published 2003)  [/quote]

[quote]Insulin resistance is a common feature of PCOS and is more marked in obese women, suggesting that PCOS and obesity have a synergistic effect on the magnitude of the insulin disorder. It leads to increased insulin secretion by beta-cells and compensatory hyperinsulinemia. Hyperinsulinemia associated with insulin resistance has been causally linked to all features of the syndrome, such as hyperandrogenism, reproductive disorders, acne, hirsutism and metabolic disturbances.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14973410  (published 2004) [/quote]


[quote]Insulin AUC after OGTT was significantly reduced, and the peripheral insulin sensitivity increased after NAC administration, whereas the hepatic insulin extraction was unaffected. The NAC treatment induced a significant fall in T levels and in free androgen index values (P<.05). In analyzing patients according to their insulinemic response to OGTT, normoinsulinemic subjects and placebo-treated patients did not show any modification of the above parameters, whereas a significant improvement was observed in hyperinsulinemic subjects. http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12057717 (Pub. 2002) [/quote]


[quote] Reduced production rates of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone in healthy men treated with rosiglitazone.

Vierhapper H, Nowotny P, Waldhausl W.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine III, University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria.

The effect of the thiazolidinedione, rosiglitazone (8 mg/d for 7 days), on the production rates of testosterone (T), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and cortisol (F) was studied in healthy men (n = 10) using the stable isotope dilution technique and mass spectrometry. Treatment with rosiglitazone resulted in a decrease in the production rates of T from, basal, 318 +/- 62 microg/h to 272 +/- 72 microg/h (P <.05). Production rates of DHT fell from, basal, 21 +/- 6 microg/h to 17 +/- 5 microg/h (P <.05). Hence, the ratio calcuated from the production rates of T and DHT was unchanged (basal, 17 +/- 7; rosiglitazone, 17 +/- 3). Production rates of cortisol were unchanged (basal, 577 +/- 136 microg/h; rosiglitazone, 627 +/- 141 microg/h). These results suggest that a clinically relevant dose of at least one thiazolidindione, rosiglitazone, impedes the production of testosterone in man. Copyright 2003, Elsevier Science (USA). All rights reserved  http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12601638 [/quote]

Those are Insulin Sensitizing Drugs. Rosiglitazone is also known as Avandia. This was a drug that I personally found to be more effective than using Birth Control (estrogen) in treating my acne.


[quote] Normal Androgen Secretion During Early Puberty

One of the earliest biochemical markers of puberty is theincreased production of adrenal androgens. Dehydro-epiandrostenedione (DHEA) and its sulfate (DHEA-S) trigger adrenarche, and androgen production steadily increases until late adolescence. This is followed by increased pulsatility of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), which causes luteinizing hormone (LH) pulse release during sleep. This triggers ovarian steroidogenesis and a five- to 10-fold increase in serum androstenedione, testosterone, and estradiol over 3 to 5 years. As the hypothalamic-pituitary-ovarian (HPO) axis matures, menstruation occurs, followed by regular ovulation within a few years of menarche.

While the HPO axis is maturing, growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) are secreted in larger quantities to stimulate somatic growth, and to promote pubertal development. This leads to insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, theca cell hyperplasia, increased ovarian androgen production, and subsequent anovulation. Thus, normal mild hyperandrogenism is required for growth, but in the event of even mild hormonal imbalances, menstrual abnormalities, hirsutism, severe acne, obesity, and poly-cystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) may develop.

,,,,, ACNE
Acne is the most common skin disease in the United States, affecting 80% of people 11 to 30 years of age [5]. It may have a significant emotional impact on those it affects, causing depression, anxiety, poor self-esteem, or withdrawal from social function [6,7]. It is a multifactorial disease, caused by inflammation, follicular hyperkeratinization, bacterial proliferation, and increased sebum due to increased sebaceous gland activity, which is androgen dependent. The sebaceous glands are stimulated to produce sebum by DHT, which in turn is made from free testosterone through the action of the enzyme 5-α-reductase. It typically arises in early puberty as a result of the normal increase in androgen production, and improves as androgen levels taper towards the end of adolescence. The severity of acne correlates with the androgen concentration.
http://www.biomedcen...1534-5874/1/124 (Full Text) [/quote]




[quote]Hyperinsulinemic diseases of civilization: more than just Syndrome X.

Cordain L, Eades MR, Eades MD.

Department of Health and Exercise Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA. cordain@cahs.colostate.edu

Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well-recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well-established growth-promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and androgens, while simultaneously reducing insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor alpha, insulin-mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body's endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues, the clinical course of which may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X. (pub. 2003)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14527633 [/quote]

Cholesterol – This is the starting point of steroid hormone production in the order of Progestins, Androgens, & Estrogens. Your body produces androgens before it will ever produce estrogen and so it makes sense that there can be a variety of liver enzyme defects in the conversion process of these hormones. Since steroid hormones are produced from cholesterol, it’s possible to have normal cholesterol levels, due to your body using the “extra� to overproduce androgens.

Insulin – Very important metabolic hormone, but too much can cause a variety of problems such as high cholesterol, high androgen production, menstrual irregularities, vision problems, androgenic alopecia, and a few skin disorders, including acne.

IGF-1 – This is responsible for skin cell proliferation, sebum gland growth, thus increased sebum production, along with a few cancers. DHT (and androgen) calls IGF-1 into action when it reaches the androgen receptors in the skin, etc. IGF-1 is also increased in the presence of Insulin through negative feedback inhibition, in order to reduce the amount of insulin in the blood stream.

IGFBP-3 – One of possibly two proteins that binds IGF-1 to prevent its activity. It is decreased in the presence of high amounts of Insulin.

Androgens – These are the “male� steroid hormones responsible for the production of DHT, sebum production, skin cell proliferation, hyperkertinization, and other virilizing characteristics.

SHBG – this is a protein that has a higher affinity for binding androgens than it does estrogen. It is increased by Estrogen, & normal exercise and is decreased in the presence of high amounts Insulin and Androgens. More recently, this has been thought to be a greater marker, than IGF-1, for Insulin Resistance.

This is why there are very specific drugs used to treat acne, based on your specific imbalance or sensitivity, that work to cease it’s production by interfering with one or more aspects of hormone synthesis. Drugs such as DHT Inhibitors (Accutane, RetinA), Anti-androgens (Spironolactone or Birth control), Insulin Sensitizers (Avandia), and even Glucocorticoids (Dexamethasone), if there is an adrenal abnormality are used in a variety of combinations. Usually, when natural treatments are used, they are also based on the above information as well, thus the use of B5, Gugglesterones, NAC, Chromium GTF, Detox, and appropriate Dietary changes.


Collected 2000 – 2002 Statistics

30% of adult (?) population is Insulin Resistant to some degree

25% of the population with normal Glucose Tolerance Levels is Insulin Resistant

40% of adults (40 – 75 years) have Pre-Diabetes

6.3% of the population is Diabetic

< 8% of Insulin Resistant adults (?) are Diabetics

< 5 % of pregnancies result in Type IV Diabetes (Gestational Diabetes)

< 5% of Diabetics are Type III and some have Insulin Resistance

100% of Type II Diabetics are Insulin Resistant (90% of all diabetics)

< 1% of Type I Diabetics are Insulin Resistant (< 10% of all diabetics)

http://diabetes.nidd...ics/index.htm#7
http://www.ific.org/...nsulinfi300.cfm
http://www.websters-...s Mellitus.html

As there are no accurate statistics, at least 30% of the adult population is Insulin Resistant, but that doesn’t tell us how many teenagers and children are also. This is something that can be asymptomatic and takes a long time before (severe) symptoms, health, or hormonal problems present themselves. Unfortunately, what that means is that people are walking around with Insulin Resistance and usually they don’t even know it, until it becomes full blown Type II Diabetes! My boss is one of these individuals, and I would’ve been too had I not gotten the diagnosis thanks to having acne.

Now, since Insulin plays a role in fat & hormone synthesis, I wouldn’t expect to see Type I Diabetics to be obese or have acne as they can’t naturally (over) produce insulin, but there are a few. Meanwhile, I would expect to see a much greater correlation of acne, high cholesterol, obesity and/or other factors in those that are Type II Diabetics, Pre-Diabetic, or Insulin Resistant. Based on the way doctors are treating these patients and controlled clinical findings, that appears to be what’s occurring.

Furthermore, since doctors are always encouraging dietary changes in medical treatment protocols, as it alone or along with medications & exercise can yield better results than just medication alone, why wouldn’t one believe that specific dietary changes couldn’t improve one’s acneic condition as well?

I'd greatly appreciate any input.


Thank you

#2 aaa

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 10:52 PM

Thank you for a great post! It worked for me and is still working... When I switched to low carb eating my skin got much clearer. In combination with Dan's regime my skin is now clear (no active acne). I've been eating LC for about 3 months and doing the regime for 1 month.
It truely is worth trying.

#3 Chloe646

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 12:55 AM

just so the doubters know, a doctor in this months glamour magazine said diets too high in carbs can cause acne

#4 BenKweller

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 01:23 AM

But any doctor in Glamour has lost real patients. smile.gif

Your post is well thought out but my grandfather became very insulin resistant when he turned 10 or 11 yet he has had 4 zits in his life (he actually remembers the dates). So, clearly, it's not a direct link.

#5 Chloe646

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 01:45 AM

not everyone is affected by diet the same way. i can eat as much as any "fat" person and not gain an ounce but I doubt you'd say diet doesn't affect how fat you can get. plus, my bro who's a Harvard PhD in molecular bio totally suports the diet acne theory if you're looking for credentials he's got more than anyone on this board,,,and there is plenty of scientific eveidence that show's diet affects key hormones that in turn cause acne. You seem to maintain the illogical argument that simply because not evryone's acne is affected by diet then noone's is....and when there is credible evidence and medical support for that argumet you simply dismiss it...

I don't think acne is just caused by insulin by the way, there are other factors than come to play...but i won't even debate this point your grandfather is ONE example. Just like your granfather had genes thta caused him to become insulin resistent, his genes made him resistent to acne. I don't have insulin resistence, nor do i really watch my blood sugar, but i may be more inclined to get acne as a by product of eating poorly. diet affctes every system to varying degrees and varies among individuals, races, groups, I won't even argue this anymore with the naysayers because it's really bizarre that one can say diet has NO acne affcte. Every derm supports that iodine, too much of it, can cause/exacerbate acne>

#6 SweetJade1980

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 02:46 AM

Ben,
I know that your father has Insulin Resistance, but I believe you've said that he's also now a Type II Diabetic, correct? Is he also obese, or carry any of the other "classic" symptoms?

Well I happen to have classic symptoms of Insulin Resistance as is associated with puberty & hyperandrogenism and not as is associated with Type II Diabetes (as I'm not a diabetic). I've probably had Insulin Resistance as early as age 8, since that's when some aspects of puberty began for me. My endocrinologist would tease me about this because I'm considered a "rarity"and when I told the school nutritionist, she looked at me like I was nutz ;-)

Unfortunately, there are more just like me and some do not even know it! You don't have to have all the symptoms or risk factors to be Insulin Resistant, didn't you read that part? However, since your father is a Type II Diabetic you are also at a greater risk of being so. I don't know your mother's history, but do you know if you are insulin resistant? Regardless, of how you cleared your acne, you may still be at risk for other more serious problems.

While I never said that Insulin Resistance always leads to acne, as there are other environmental and dietary causes, nor have I said that all acne is caused by Insulin Resistance, there is a direct link for a nice percentage of us.

- If there is no direct link then how is it possible that an Insulin Sensitizing Drug reduced my acne better than BC (an anti-androgen)?

- How is it possible that a changes in my diet, that remove at least, either IGF-1, or a higher Insulin Response, produced an even greater improvement?

So if the below scientific studies, among many others that I did and didn't post, supports that:

Hyperinsulinemia ---> Hyperandrogenism ----> Acne , why don't you believe it?

QUOTE
While the HPO axis is maturing, growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) are secreted in larger quantities to stimulate somatic growth, and to promote pubertal development. This leads to insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, theca cell hyperplasia, increased ovarian androgen production, and subsequent anovulation. Thus, normal mild hyperandrogenism is required for growth, but in the event of even mild hormonal imbalances, menstrual abnormalities, hirsutism, severe acne, obesity, and poly-cystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) may develop.



QUOTE
Insulin resistance is a common feature of PCOS and is more marked in obese women, suggesting that PCOS and obesity have a synergistic effect on the magnitude of the insulin disorder. It leads to increased insulin secretion by beta-cells and compensatory hyperinsulinemia. Hyperinsulinemia associated with insulin resistance has been causally linked to all features of the syndrome, such as hyperandrogenism, reproductive disorders, acne, hirsutism and metabolic disturbances.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14973410  (published 2004)


Thanks

#7 SweetJade1980

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 02:53 AM

Chloe,
LOL, I know. People will state that diet plays no role and then turn around and say "well caffeine or iodine may so you should avoid them" Well I can understand their reasoning for avoiding both of these, caffeine more so than iodine, but that is the exact reasoning why we avoid certain foods too. Not because it is a "greasy" food, but because it contains certain allergenic glycoproteins, nutrients, anti-nutrients, chemicals, or hormones that interfere with our metabolism and/or hormonal balance.

Take care

#8 cynic

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 06:19 AM

I'm positive food makes a difference.

#9 Nico

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 08:03 AM

Of course it does :wall:

#10 euro18

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 09:21 AM

The people who doubt that there is a correlation between acne-diet just DON'T WANT to believe there's a connection. It is much easier to pop a pill and eat crap than to change your diet. The latter is harder and more time consuming than taking antibiotics. That's y you will never convince some people. The doubters feel they have science on their side, as there have extensive studies done (about 2 flawed ones) ruling out any possiblity of an diet-acne link. And more annoyingly, they then resort to the scientifically-sound argument "well, my friend eats fried food, pizzas and chocolate all day and never gets spots." They conclude from this statement that diet is therefore is not linked to acne.

There is also another type of acne-doubters. These are the people who eat healthily, so they don't need to change their diet. These people do not eat fried food, take-aways or much chocolate. They eat all lots of wholegrains, cereals , some dairy, fruit and veg and meat. Of course this is the type of diet, for reasons discussed above, which can cause acne. There is NO SUCH THING AS A UNIVERSIALLY HEALTHY DIET. Everyone is different. One man's bread is another man's dead.

#11 Makaveli

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 09:44 AM

I think it does affect acne, but the change is not significant.. I am noticing that a lot of people are changing their diet, but also doing something in addition to the diet change (Like the poster above who said she changed her diet and was doing the regimen).. This would really skew results.. Maybe people prone to acne with a bad diet will have their skin slightly affected by it, but people who suffer from moderate/severe acne cannot attribute it all to diet, it's ludacris to think so.. Maybe some flare ups yes, but acne in general, no..

It's pointless to really argue because each person will have their own opinion, and proof to support it.. For every google search that supports diet, there is another one that says diet has nothing to do with it.. It's a dead end.

#12 SweetJade1980

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 06:46 PM

Yeah, sometimes it feels like it is a dead end, but I wanted to comment on your observation.

Most people that change their diet do so because it was usually their last resort before giving up or trying accutane. Therefore, we've run the gammit of OTC treatments, Prescritption topicals, and Oral Drugs and they weren't effective enough.

People that you see here using topicals are either doing so because they didn't change their diet "enough", or they are using them to eliminate what is currently left, along with the scars.

There are also some people that use supplements and this could also be because they didn't change their diet "enough" or because these supplements are used to treat other problems that dietary changes weren't able to repair.

Everyone has the right to go as for as they feel comfortable with their diet. Everyone should change things at their own pace and if they feel that they "can't" do anymore, then it's absolutely OK to add supplements or topicals to finish it off.

However, those people that follow the right set of dietary changes for them 100%, don't use topicals, supplements, and sometimes don't even wash their faces (or use soap). So it CAN make that much of a difference for the "right" individual.

Take care =)

#13 Chloe646

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 07:06 PM

Euro18,

love that "one man's bread is another man's dead!" those greek/were they greek? philosephors were on to something when they said one mans food is another man's poison!!


It's so true that a "healthy" diet is not one universal diet...some people may actually do better with higher carbs...tha's why it can be confusing and frustrating. i do well and feel better all around when i eat plenty of meat. Also people metabolize/use vitamins differntly...and you never know what someone eats...for example how do you know your friend with the clear skin isn't just consuming more vit. a then you in their diet but they just don't realize it...or maybe people breakout on a strict regimen because it was their diet that has been fluctuacting. I don't think any tiny deviation from a diet is going to give you cystic acne...just stick to a good diet for you in general so that deviations don't cause enuf of a prob to give you a breakout.

BUT, I did get bad acne from soy and being vegetarin....normally I'd agree that diet only moderates milder acne cases, but soy caused acne for me that scarred and wrecked what were genetically perfect teeth (I got my first or second cavity at 20 when i was eating that soy crap and it was downhill from there!)..Of course the media has been very good at hiding the proven negative hormonal effctes this food can have on some individuals. it may explain why, after accuatne five years ago, i have yet to suffer from any obvious breakout, even if i eat junk food. So please be aware that sometimes healthy sounding food can be worse than a bag of greasy chips to some people!


Tka care all, and hope you all find what keep YOU happy and healthy!

#14 evigrex

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 07:12 PM

Chloe - IR is marked by ease of weight gain. I know one person that suffered from pre diabetes (IR with a fasting BG of around 95) and he could gain 5 lbs literally overnight. Fortunately i'm one of the high metabolism people like you, so I don't have to worry about it.

While I disagree on the how and why diet could affect acne, I think a healthy diet low in refined carbohydrates is a smart way to go - it will lead to a higher skin turnover rate, better sense of wellbeing, and no crashes like you usually get after eating a sugar laden meal. Although those krispy kremes I see lying around at work...I just cannot resist the temptation sometimes. My only issue with extreme low carb diets is that some people don't differentiate between "bad" carbs and good ones - carbs aren't evil especially if one works out a lot.

#15 Makaveli

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 08:19 PM

QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Jul 24 2004, 05:33 PM)
Yeah, sometimes it feels like it is a dead end, but I wanted to comment on your observation. 

Most people that change their diet do so because it was usually their last resort before giving up or trying accutane.  Therefore, we've run the gammit of OTC treatments, Prescritption topicals, and Oral Drugs and they weren't effective enough. 

People that you see here using topicals are either doing so because they didn't change their diet "enough", or they are using them to eliminate what is currently left, along with the scars.

There are also some people that use supplements and this could also be because they didn't change their diet "enough" or because these supplements are used to treat other problems that dietary changes weren't able to repair.

Everyone has the right to go as for as they feel comfortable with their diet.  Everyone should change things at their own pace and if they feel that they "can't" do anymore, then it's absolutely OK to add supplements or topicals to finish it off.

However, those people that follow the right set of dietary changes for them 100%, don't use topicals, supplements, and sometimes don't even wash their faces (or use soap).  So it CAN make that much of a difference for the "right" individual.

Take care  =)

You seem to know a lot abut the diet-acne relationship, so what foods should I try to avoid? Is it only those that are in high in sugar and dairy?

#16 idealist

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 01:09 PM

just think of it this way: everyone is affected/manifests the food they eat, differently. some get fat, some get high cholesterol, some will get acne.

no matter what you are eating (good or bad) the food is doing SOMETHING to you INTERNALLY. from making you heathly, to making you unheatlhy (high cholesterol, clogging arteries, increasing insulin levels, causing acne). and for many of us on this board, diet has been the only thing that works. including me.

i've been on the low simple carb, low sugar, low dairy diet for about ten months. when i stick with it, my skin is CLEAR. when i don't i get acne.

wheni was younger, i did not belive in the diet acne connection. at one point i stopped eating all fast greasy food, thinking i'll be healthy now and skin will get better...but i would still have acne. what was i eating? lots of sanwhiches, pasta, potatoes, cheese, yogurt, white rice, processed cereals, very little vegetables. it wasn't till about a year ago that i realized....these food are not trully "healthy." now i mostlly eat FRESH vegetables and fruit, beans, legumes, leafy greens. i eliminate bread, dairy, sweets, and other processed food as MUCH as i can.

the key for me was not only eating more "real" food, but also eating LOW on the GYLCEMIC INDEX. so bannanas and potatoes and carrots are OUT.

#17 SweetJade1980

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 01:39 PM

QUOTE(Makaveli @ Jul 24 2004, 08:06 PM)
You seem to know a lot abut the diet-acne relationship, so what foods should I try to avoid? Is it only those that are in high in sugar and dairy?

Makaveli,
Sometimes it's not always as simple as just avoiding sugar. A long time ago, the doctors and scientists thought they understood why people were getting fat and had high cholesterol. Without doing much research into this, they concluded that because greasy or fat containg foods were being eaten that this was the sole cause. Thus, the USDA Food Pyramid as we know it was built. Emphasizing not the "oily" stuff, but the dry stuff, which was usually carbohydrates in the form of breads, pastas, etc.


This was how I grew up thinking that I was eating "healthy" There wasn't an emphasis on veggies, but on decreasing fat consumption. I personally didn't enjoy eating greasy foods for breakfast anyway so I looked forwared to eating cearal, oatmeal, muffins, granola bars, waffles, etc for breakfast. For lunches and dinners, I looked forward to pizza, pastas, hamburgers, sandwiches, etc. I enjoyed snaking on cereal bars, trail mix, chips, popcorn, crackers over cookies and cakes. Of course I believed that (while my acne never improved) that avoidance of Chocolate and Sodas was important as they were bad because of the caffeine and NOT because of the dairy, sugar & hydrogenated oil content (LOL). I thought I was doing the right things and I remember reading somewhere that in order to gain wieght you should eat a lot of carbohydrates. Yet I also remember reading that you should eat a lot of protein too. Of course, now I understand the roles that each of these buidling blocks of the human body provides, but back then I would just load up on more (double decker) PB & J sandwiches (sometimes containing Brewers yeast protein) to try and gain weight. Of course that worked, but as soon as I stopped eating 5x a day and working out, the weight dropped off almost instantly =(


Well, as most of us should know, they were wrong. They didn't bother to differentiate between the good and bad fats. Not to mention, they didn't even consider the fact that if you eat too much glucose your body can store it as fat (reason for various atkins, and low carb diets). Based on some studies I've read and a Science Direct article (not a peer reviewed journal), they just assumed that fat was the culprit and encouraged us to eat more grain carbhoydrates (as these are cheaper). Since they also didn't bother to differentiate between good and bad carbohydrates (some recent studies still don't), this is also the reason for the harsh or dangerousness of some low-carb type of diets, not to mention an INCREASE in heart disease, high cholesterol, obesity and Type II Diabetes!


I'm a scientist, or at least I will be when I graduate, and as much as I love this field, I also understand that some things are NEVER exact. That was something my professors emphasized in my classes that "science is ever changing and never exact" Thinking back on some events in history, I hope you can see how that rule does apply. Some things that were thought to be the "cause"one decade, ended up not being so, but rather it was really something else the next decade. Usually they were on the right track, but gave credit to the wrong thing or the whole element when it was really a specic part of it (ie. EGCG in Green Tea, Silibin in Silymarin containingg Milk Thistle, etc). In that respect, there's no "flaw" in that ,as science is about retesting, "Trial and Error, and reformulating until they get it right (as they can at that moment time).


Futhermore, considering how complex the human body is, most things still have no explanation, yet some are treated using certain methods that appear to help anyway. Why should diet be any different? In this case though, certain fats do play a role, but so do certain types and the amount of carbydrates. Calories do too, but that's usually reduced when you drop most "unhealthy" foods. I guess thats another good example. Are they saying that it's calories that is the problem or is it just that most unhealthy foods are also HIGH calorie foods???? Defining this, could make all the difference in the world, as we know what happend when they didn't do this with Fats.


So I guess if you wanted to change your diet for the better and to clear your skin, the Sugar - Insulin connection is a good place to start. However, some people may not notice results if they are extremely sick, with lots of health problems and allergies, and these people usually benefited from a liver flush. I KNOW how many people hate hearing that, but whether science can explain it yet (there have been no published stuides so THAT fact doesn't mean it doesn't work), it's helping individuals that couldn't find help using everything else, including dietary changes.


Since our livers are responsible for producing the enzymes neccessary for hormone synthesis, nutrient conversion, detoxification, etc. in a way it makes sense that if you heal your liver you could improve or eliminate your health or hormonal problems. What I've noticed is that those that had really "strict" diets are sometimes also able to include certain foods back in their diet. Of course, most still eliminate certain foods that I'm going to mention to you a bit later. Although, some of these foods may still be eliminated due to their anti-nutrient and enzyme inhibiting abilities.

Most foods (herbs, vitamins, etc) have a way of protecting themselves or enhancing their function and well, sometimes it means that they can act as MAO Inhibitors, Tyrosine Inhibitors, Vitamin A metabolism Inhbitors, or binders of Zinc, Calcium, Potassium, Magnessium, & Phosphorus, especially if you eat enough of them. Usually it's not something to worry about, unless you are susceptible, and especially if you eat your foods properly prepared, but we know that as acne sufferers, we ARE susceptible to something. Since some sources say that we lack some of the above, and we know that adding Vitamin A, Zinc, Magnsium can help us, it may be something to thing about.


The best way to figure out what foods may negatively affect you is to look at your family history. Do your siblings, parents, grandparents, etc have any health or hormonal problems? If so, take a look at what diet plans are suggested (by doctors) in helping alleviate those problems. Did any of them have acne? If so, find out what foods they found to attribute to their problems.


This may be especially relevant if your family is prone to getting acne now as are my parents and older brother. My mother says that too much chocolate breaks her out (in like 1 pimple), but when she was younger she had facial and body acne like I did. Where as, my father still gets acne in the form of pseudofolliculities mainly in his beard area and some acne on his upper back. Now, another thing you may want to consider, this is just MY THEORY, is that the symptom of acne may change into another symptom over time, such as wieght gain (my mother and most of her family is overwieght with a few are obese), Diabetes Type II (my dad's side of the family, none that are really overwieght though), or cancer etc.


LOL, so for me I was a very good candidate the for acne-diet connection, via insulin resistance. Yet I don't follow a plan such as avoiding high insulin response foods (glycemic index/load), instead I chose to avoid certain foods that scientificially usually yielded a HIGHER Insulin Resistance response and thus contributed more so to my hormonal imbalance. These same foods are thought to be bad for a variety of reasons and so, one simple explanation won't satisfy the results that someone else gets from them. The below list of foods is mainly compiled from the Merck Manual, as well as various allergy websites. If you notice these same foods pop up in certain health books, and diet plans like the sometimes frowned upon Paleodiet. Based on various theories (most seem plausible), these yield a specific hormonal response, inflammatory response, and/or contribue to other sumptoms of a health or hormonal disorder:


Allergenic Foods (due to autoimmune respnse)
Dairy
Wheat
Corn
Nuts
Tree nuts
Soybean
Banana
Peaches
Berries (blueberry, strawberry, etc)
Eggs
Pork
Fish
Shellfish
Salicylates (this just sucks http://users.bigpond...ian/fi/sal.html )
Chocolate (pure cocoa or the candy bars?)
Cotton Seed Oil

[people can be allergenic to anything incl. all fruits, or citrus fruits, etc]


Intolerant Foods (due to lacking a specific enzyme for digestion)
Dairy (lactose, casien, whey)
Grains
Gluten (wheat, barely, rye and...maybe oats)
Legumes/Beans (includes peanuts, soybean)
Night Shades (potato, tomato, peppers, eggplant)



Chemical Sensitivity
Yellow No. 5 (healths sake)
MSG
Caffiene
Sulfites (the stuff on some dried fruits)
Nitrates (preservatives)
Aspartame (just for healths sake)


Additional Hormone/Health Disrupters:
Refined Foods (anything that isn't normally white, as in bleached flour, rice, etc)

Trans Fats (Partially Hydrogenated Oils, Hydrogenated Oils)

Most Saturated fats (unrefined coconut oil is supposed to be safe) - mainly (red meat) animal fats

Refined Sugars (sucrose, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup)


http://users.bigpond...lergydietitian/

http://www.food.gov....yintol/foodall/

http://www.immune.co...rgy/allabc.html

http://www.niaid.nih...sheets/food.htm


As a result of combining diet plans, and listening to my parents, I KNOW these make a difference (trial and error for some) and avoid the following:

Dairy, Gluten (& most grains actually), bananas, peanuts, cashews, pistachios, chocolate candy (mom), sodas, non-100% fruit juice, most refined foods, most Refined sugars, Trans Fats and for healths sake usually bad preservatives & chemicall additives (msg, aspartame - headaches).



These are the things that I tend to naturally avoid, or rarely eat and so I haven't figured out if they contribute or not:

peaches (still debating) - a part of the Plum (plums, nectarines) and the Cashew family (cashew, pistachio, mangos)

oranges (citrus breaks my dad out),

Pecans & Walnut family (still debating)

Berries (?)


So that's my tale. Like everyone has said, thanks to our genetics, we are all different and will respond differently to the same foods. You do not have to be allergic or intolerant to the above foods for them to give you grief. I have no such food allergies, and also tested negative for a gluten intolerance. So either they aren't using the most accurate measures, or there are some other reasons why these foods cause us problems (again some have a hormonal connection). Yes, it can be long and a bit complicated, but to be honest eliminating Gluten only got me 95% clear. Eliminating other foods got me 99% clear and well...still working on upping my fiber & veggie intake in hopes of getting that 100% ;-)

Take care

#18 thebignosebandit

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 02:58 PM

if this were true, diabetics and the acne condition would have a DIRECT relationship. patterns would turn up, and conclusive data can be formed. however, diabetic sufferers and acne sufferers have no link, therefore, the insulin theory, cannot be established.

nice try tho.

#19 SweetJade1980

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 03:15 PM

Bignose,
Well thanks, but did you not read the above studies? How can you say that there is no direct link, when those and other studies support that Hyperinsulinemia (not diabetes specifically) produces Hyperandrogenism. Patterns are turning up, and more conclusive data is being formed.

Not to mention, we must remember to differentiate the type of Diabetic you are referring to, when you say "diabetes" as no, not all diabetics would be susceptible. When you do differentiate, you find that the majority of Diabetics are Type II Diabetics and they they are all Insulin Resistant. Futhermore you find that people that aren't diabetic, can also be Insulin Resistant, and that this syndrome has MULTIPLE indicatiors of which, acne is only one possibility.

Take care

P.S. If that doesn't suffice, then please explain to me WHY taking an Insulin Sensitizer would reduce my acne?

Also, why are doctors giving these types of drugs to other people that have acne as symptom, via Insulin Resistance mechanism?

#20 rommie

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 07:18 PM

People have to choose to want to change. No amount of research would have made me want to change my diet when I had acne in the earlier years. But after 5 years of uncontrollable skin, I would do anything to improve my acne. I thought to myself....there no way in hell I can have massive breakouts if I'm eating whats right for my body. Its been smooth sailing for the past 4 months because of my diet change. Ive seen people on this board say they'll do anything for clear skin...like trade in a finger...or eat dog shit.... :blink: come on guys...krispy kremes aren't that hard to resist! biggrin.gif