QUOTE(evigrex @ Jul 21 2004, 03:25 PM)
The argument presented is that insulin resistance leads to acne.Â Â So, why isn't the insulin resistant population suffering from acne more than those with normal glucose tolerance.
LOL, I truly enjoy this about you. ;-) I honestly wish that the others would debate with as much energy and passion as you put forth. While I answered your diabetes, Insulin resistance question already on Page 1, I will clarify a "few" things.
First of all, you are forgetting to account for the fact that most Diabetics (90%) are Type II Diabetics.
Type II Diabetes is very strongly thought to be brought on from Insulin Resistance. Insulin Resistance leads to Type II Diabetes, which if prolonged & severe enough, Type I Diabetes can result. Of course, people are born with Type I Diabetes and require insulin injections (they don't overproduce), and as such, my initial impression is that no, I wouldn't expect most of these individuals to be hyperandrogenic or obese, let alone have acne. They lack certain things that Type IIs and the "normal" population have and it will affect them in many ways. After glimpsing at a few studies theys were more in favor of Erectile dysfunction for "Diabetics" or Type I Diabetics but said that Type IIs had a greater chance the longer they went untreated (slower becoming Type I?). http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11431598http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=10869326
Once again, I have had 2 Glucose Tolerance Tests run since April 2001, and while I don't have copies of all the results my doctor repeatedly said I was "either Insulin Resistant or PCOS" Every 3 or 4 months, he continually tested my hormone levels for cholesterol (normal), glucose (normal), several of the androgens, adrenal hormones, liver enzymes, etc. He not only checked my hematocrit (normal), but he also checked me for several anemias, a gluten intolerance, and other hormonal disorders which all came out negative. Yet, Diabetes Type II has hit a few members of my fathers side, most are borderline so I know I'm susceptible and fall into one of those groups and since IR leads to PCOS, I just say that I'm IR. Furthermore, the proof is in the results from using the medication for over a year. However I am no longer taking it because dietary changes were more effective for me.
Now, my personal defination of Hyperandrogenism
is when you produce Too Much Total Testosterone
, when you produce Too much Free Androgen
, When you produce Too Much DHEA
, etc. However, some people can be sensitive
to androgens that fall on the end of the High-Normal Range and behave as if they are hyperandrogenic. Not to mention, that there are Book definitions that actually include Hyperinsulinemia as leading to Hyperandrogenism
, so I didn't come up with this all on my own. http://sharedjourney...es/insulin.html
I personally produce too much DHEA and Free Testosterone (in the normal male ranges), yet my DHEA-S and Total Testosterones are normal. My Thyroid, Cortisol, 17OHA Progesterone, Progesterone, LH, FSH are normal, and my estrogen is on the low-normal side. I do not fit the classic mold of what was
once thought of as Insulin Resistance. My former endocrinologist would tease me about that. When I spoke to a nutritonist at school, she qouted the same "Classic Characteristics" that you did, and looked at me as if I was nuts. ;-)
Despite whatever she or you or the world is ready to accept, Insulin Resistance SYNDROME means that not everyone will have ALL the SAME symptoms. There are over 2 dozen symptoms or disorders associated with this syndrome and I'm grateful I don't have them all. Thus, no, not everyone that is Insulin Resistant will have acne and I have NEVER
I'm sorry if you are soo anti-androgen that you can't fathom the fact that you used an anti-androgen to get clear. I'm sorry if you can't deal with that, but I would just laugh it off and learn from it. Not all DHT Inhibitors or Anti-Androgens have the same side effects, nor do they all affect the same enzymes or pathways. In that respect I throw in Dietary Changes (particularly lowering carbs) as an anti-androgen method. I throw in Insulin Sensitizers as an Anti-Androgen method. Believe it or not, there are studies that have shown that this is in fact occurring.
The other thing I've noticed is that you seem to focus on one area of a study, but you aren't really comprehending what the study is saying in terms of androgen expression, not that I claim to know ALL of the vocabulary either (but I will look it up). I know that the majority of initial studies (hence the conflicting data) are far
from perfect. I know that they don't control for everything that you, I, and the rest of the acne community, would like in a perfect diet-acne study, but over time they are getting more specific.
I think that the Full Text articles would help us see just how much fat, what types of carbs, or what doses were used to get these results, as that is VERY important to know. However these studies do something better and that's show how a variety of environmental factors play a role in hormone expression or suppression. If you understand
hormone is, and what glands, hormones, proteins, nutrients & receptors regulate it, then you can understand one
aspect of the diet-acne connection.
Again, I don't begin to claim to understand all the complexities of the human body, but based on what I've learned, read, and observed 5-alpha reductase is the enzyme used for DHT production
. Apparently DHT is produced mainly through a reduction interaction with the Androgen Receptors. So if somehow Accutane suppresses this enzyme, it will suppress DHT Production. If accutane binds to the androgen receptors (studies show that it doesnâ€™t) so that androgen/DHT canâ€™t, then it would have an anti-androgenic effect. Now, if Roche, the manufacturer of Accutane, is posting articles on their website that claim it to be a DHT Inhibitor, WHY can't you
You mentioned something about "normal healthy folk" and well, it's almost laughable because what is healthy? I thought I was healthy because I didn't get sick, had normal cholesterol levels, normal blood pressure, but I was underweight, and other than having mild asthma for a few years, my BIGGEST fight has been the Symptoms of my Hormonal Imbalance = PCOS, Insulin Resistance, or Metabolic Syndrome
. Insulin Resistance doesn't have to have external symptoms it can all be internal and asymptomatic
so just how many "normal" people do you think really DO
have Insulin Resistance? Heck, I thought I was normal enough, I never would have thought of IR ;-)
Again, when I think about it, I'm soo grateful because if I hadn't finally found a GOOD Endocrinologist to test
me for so many
disorders and retest
me, I wouldn't have gotten a Diagnosis and I would have just gotten worse. If I didn't have that diagnosis, and if I didn't see how well Avandia had worked for me, I probably never
would have thought to follow some form of a Low Carbohydrate Diet. From there I would have never thought to break it down more
and see what other foods affect us.
I recall one time when everyone raved about milk having bad hormones and when I initially researched it 2 years ago, it was on a superficial level and discounted that it was significant enough. LOL, 3 years ago I was so naive that I thought that since I had the medication, I didn't need
to change my diet, especially since I didn't need to lose weight....well I know better
now. When I realized the difference
it made in several areas, I took the above info I had learned about Insulin Resistance and started throwing it (researching) at all kinds of foods, supplements, prescriptions, & topicals and some "Hit a Home Run," I guess you could say, and others didn't. This is the stuff that theories, medications, protocols, etc are based on, yet there are an increasing number of studies that suggest that most of this is MORE than just a theory. I'm glad, because this nation is not getting "healthier."