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Diet-Acne Study

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#21 evigrex

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 11:45 AM

...edit...will post complete thoughts later
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#22 Chloe646

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 01:38 PM

I still wonder why people are so very resistant to the diet acne link, maybe because food is what some people turn to to feel better and not think about their skin? Or, maybe because it seems to put blame on the person, and frankly, nixing a lot of common foods is much mure difocult than applying a cream or swallowing a pill. But since there is not enough good solid data a person shouldn't blame themselves. Not everyone will be significantly impacted by diet obviously, but it's less rational to say noone or even a minority are impacted.


I had my pic posted in the gallery, I made my album private now : )...but the pic was from last year and my skin looked really clear and i thought, maybe it's just bad camera resolution but I could spot a small freackle/mole on my neck....well I was eating a very very healthy (for me) diet then and lately I've been a bit sloppy>I changed back to that diet, dramatically increased my water intake and within a week/two weeks my pores have really unclogged (i was not getting pimples, maybe one or two small ones every few months, but my skin was oilier, more dead skin clogging my pores and more blackheads, a lot more than I remembered having in the longest time and it didn't look too good with all the clogs).

Also, a lot of the blotchiness I was having faded and my tone is more even. This improvement from dietary change was way better than I'd ever gotten using glycolic acid toners or topicals...This is what I'm doing dietwise that has given me these results/again I am not using much topical wise but will include relevant info for my simple but effective regime that may or may not help but it's worth a try:

1. Increase water intake if you already don't drink a lot of water (3 liters is a good #). This has helped cut down on oiliness (the bod is 90% water and a lot if not all chemcal reactions in the body use water).


2. Cut out/cut down on dairy, especially high fat dairy (some derms HAVE sen a link and conceded to a link between dairy fat and acne) I don't even eat much low fat but if you must have dairy, maybe you can see if low/non fat works for you. I also avoid all soy products and junk foods only in extreme moderation. added selenium 100 mg supplement and 30 mg. Coenzyme Q10

3. Eliminated gluten grains (ie: wheat/barley/rye) and eat other grains (rice mainly) only on a weekly basis, not daily or only a couple servings. ONE small handful of rice contains around 50 grams of carb, so it can really add up.

4. Increased veggie intake and protein>but DON'T overdose on the red meat protein>I found many many months ago that while this did not make me oily or clog my pores it gave me some red pimples which is (knock on wood, pray pray pray, rare for me nowadays)

5. Don't overly touch your face and wash your hands with Benzoyl peroxide if it's too harsh to put on your face.

6. Witch hazel to remove dirt/makeup thoroughly followed by neautrogena unscented bar soap/cigarette papers for oil blotting>for makeup>minimal just some Trublend covergirl foundation.

really, these measures have helped cut down on blackheads/oiliness and clogged pores so much better than any topical>As a little anecdote>when my skin had broken out many months ago when I was eating junk, my derm denied the diet connection and prescribed me a topical, well i lied to her and said I used the topical at my next visit when all I did was change my diet (Needless to say I wanted to laugh when at the follow up appt. she remarked on how that topical had really cleared the breakout/clogs). Sorry 'bout the very lengthy post rolleyes.gif
The warmth of the sun reminds her of the day-she remembers the day when things were going her way-only memories remain-of the way she used to be-She stays home every night and exaggerates her past..all the old photographs were never thrown away-what made her cry-she'll never go back again-the way she used to be

#23 cynic

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 01:45 PM

Thanks for the informative post, Chloe. smile.gif

Going back to point #3 you made, about gluten grains - which foods can the wheat/barley/rye etc you mentioned be found in?

Thanks.

#24 Chloe646

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 02:03 PM

You're welcome cynic smile.gif ....

those grains can be found in a lot of stuff actually (mainly cereal/crackers.sometimes processed meat but boarshead or some good brands don't conatin much filler..also, on labels it may simply say gluten. In restaurants, gravies/sauces, and often many soups (even A LOt of canned ones) contain flour to thicken, just ask the waitress if you're uncertain...battered/breaded items>the usual suspects....Just read labels!
The warmth of the sun reminds her of the day-she remembers the day when things were going her way-only memories remain-of the way she used to be-She stays home every night and exaggerates her past..all the old photographs were never thrown away-what made her cry-she'll never go back again-the way she used to be

#25 evigrex

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 04:44 PM

"Intake of dairy products was associated with a modest increase in circulating IGF-I levels, but intake of low-fat milk was associated with lower risk of colorectal cancer, particularly among individuals with high IGF-I/IGFBP-3. This subpopulation, which is at increased risk of colorectal cancer, might benefit the most from specific dietary intervention."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11535708



High calorie and high protein diets increase IGF-1 levels. What else were the participants eating?

No data here indicates that milk alone increased IGF-1 levels signifigantly. They don't even mention what amount of an increase occured. And it goes without saying, your supposed link between IGF-1 and acne is purely speculative. You know bodybuilders have used IGF-1 to enhance local muscle growth for years, and acne is never a side effect of exogenous IGF-1 use. I wonder why.




"Hyperinsulinemic diseases of civilization: more than just Syndrome X.

Cordain L, Eades MR, Eades MD.

Department of Health and Exercise Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA. cordain@cahs.colostate.edu

Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well-recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well-established growth-promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and androgens, while simultaneously reducing insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor alpha, insulin-mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body's endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues, the clinical course of which may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X.


And if you read that carefully, they're only speculating that it may excasserbate acne. My take on it is that its a bunch of damn crap - Again, please tell me how and why insulin resistant and diabetic folks do not suffer from acne more than than their healthy counterparts. They do not.
And by this study, you would have to say that someone with normal blood glucose (I *assume* you've had your insulin sensitivity tested, right? No? Ahem..) should not have any diet-acne link. Just insulin resistant folks, right? Speculation, once again.





The purpose of this study was to measure the serum levels of IGF-1 in women with postadolescent acne compared to normal controls, and evaluate the relationship of these levels to the levels of androgens, in order to investigate the possible role of IGF-1 in the pathogenesis of acne. Eighty-two female patients with acne between 20 and 25 years of age and thirty-one age-matched control women were studied. We measured the serum levels of total testosterone (T), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S), and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1). The levels of IGF-1 in patients with acne (1.26 +/- 0.52 U/ml) were significantly (p < 0.001) increased over those of controls (0.96 +/- 0.32 U/ml). Of 82 acne patients, six (7%) had IGF-1 levels which exceeded the normal range, but there were no significant correlations between IGF-1 and T, FT, DHT or DHEA-S levels or between IGF-1 and acne severity. Since the measurement of serum IGF-1 levels is a convenient indicator of GH secretion, the increase of serum IGF-1 levels seen in some acne patients might reflect an increase of GH."

High simultaneous levels of GH, IGF-1, DHT and DHEA-s in females suffering from acne. Wow....your revelation is where.....? People with high androgen levels will have higher IGF-1 levels. That should be obvious.




Indeed, IGF-1 correlation is a bit tricky to pinpoint. Sometimes it's elevated and sometimes it isn't.

What an understatement.

The marker for Insulin Resistance as such isn't elevated IGF-1, but a decrease in SHBG (which binds free androgens).

Many of your studies are based on people who suffer from insulin resistance. In case you DO NOT KNOW what that means, generally someone with a 12 hour fasting blood glucose level of above *95* ng/dl are insulin resistant - meaning that their cells do not properly respond to insulin produced by the pancreas. So what you're saying is that normal people shouldn't suffer from acne...right. What is your fasting blood glucose level, btw?

Accutane is not only a DHT inhibitor, but it also inhibits IGF-1. In fact, this is probably why it is most effective.

Stop saying accutane inhibits DHT. It does *not* inhibit the production of testosterone, DHT, or any other androgen. It has actions in the skin, but not on the production of androgens themselves. Since you love searching pubmed, do a search for "accutane testosterone" to convince yourself.

Diets high in dairy, fats, and "bad" carbohydrates, reduce not just SHBG but also our IGFBP-3 protein which is responsible for binding IGF-1 to cease it's proliferative/growth effects.

Really? How much? How long?

DHT calls upon IGF-1 to enlarge the sebacous glands and produce more sebum, but if you don't have the IGF-1 and a degree less DHT, those effects won't occur. As such, Accutane works by boosting our IGFBP-3 protein and proper dietary changes will boost booth SHBG and IGFBP-3.

Thats a very speculative. You should really stop combining bits and pieces of random studies together to prove a point, none of this data is conclusive.

I can play the game of finding studies too, if you want....the american academy of dermatology has done several studies to determine the role of diet in acne in folks of varying insulin sensitivities and androgen production. They could not find any correlation between diet and enlargement of sebaucus glands, or an increase in androgens that could potentially cause it.

before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#26 evigrex

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:05 PM

Oh and by the way, I know I come across as being very brash....I apologize if I offended anyone. My profession has made my personality like this, I guess.....but I am genuinely interested in seeing a valid link between diet and acne. I just don't feel that what i've seen so far qualifies as proof.

Once again though, I will state unequivocably state that a proper diet will increase skin turnover and healing. I've seen this firsthand.....but have never seen an effect on acne.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#27 Chloe646

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 06:22 PM

Evirex,

whenever you refer to the studies you keep making an assumption about what compound specifically is responsible for causing acne...the fat in milk is recognized by some derms to exacerbate or cause acne, not neccesarily linked with insulin levels. Also, doctors and many researchers do not know much about nutrition, if they did, nutritionist as occupation would be redundant and non existant.

As far as no link with acne and diet, my doc saw first hand the link, I just bullshitted her because if I'd told her that's how my blemishes/clogged pores cleared up she'd just think of some other reason. Anyway, docs are not very good at making those connections and often remain ignorant to what could be glaring epidemiological evidence. Hard core scinetific researchers are much more openminded than docs about diet, My bro, harvard PhD in molecular bio/cellular aging, when I was sick, told me to fast...I was like WHAT, he's like sure do it, releases toxic crap from fat, etc....and all these other benefits, A Doctor would NEVER sugggest that.

Anyway, Why do you put so much stock on docs and research studies that may be funded by particular industry (60% of them are). I've also personally had an experinece where i've proven docs wrong and had the evidence to show it. And diet does make a significant diff for me..I go by PROOF and EXPERIENCE and WHAT RESULTS SHOW ME...I couldn't care less now what a doc would say/or if they disagreed with me...There are many instances where medicine looks to fok remedies to see HOW something works...It would be ridiculous to wait for scientific verification to tell you don't do that it's harming you if that's your personal experience...why suffer fools.
The warmth of the sun reminds her of the day-she remembers the day when things were going her way-only memories remain-of the way she used to be-She stays home every night and exaggerates her past..all the old photographs were never thrown away-what made her cry-she'll never go back again-the way she used to be

#28 evigrex

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 06:31 PM

Most of people making claims of diet affecting acne have ridiculous explainations of why diet can cause it (NV Perricone comes to mind.) This is where studies are useful...if you're going to make a claim, prove it. There have been countless studies to find a _direct_ link between diet and acne, and none have shown a link between sebaucus gland production + size, to diet.

Problem is most of the people do elimination diets to see if something makes their acne worse, and if they get a whitehead..they say "gee, this (whatever) caused it". Most of the time it more circimstance than anything else. I've even seen people claim that something they ate the day before caused a whitehead to pop up..which is totally bogus since it takes much longer than a day for that whitehead to develop.

and about milk..okay, i'll bite. Please tell me how fat in milk is unique and can cause acne? Cause fats of the same type are treated equally in the digestive tract.
before you judge me take a look at you
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point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#29 Chloe646

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 06:55 PM

Honestly, about the fats in dairy connection, there was a magazine article that covered that and I don't know exactly how this was tested or the how the conclusion was exactly made. actually, there's a gap in medicine that distresses me....it's between allergists and gastroenterologists...allergist treat reactions solely caused by food proteins, while gastros treat disturbances to the stomach and maybe some stuff on stomach enzymes/ie measuringlactose/fructose intolerance whatever... if someone gets an allergic SYMPTOM, they are then sent to the allergist who can't confirm an allergic CAUSE...that's why i think there are all these food intolerance books out, etc....to fill in that gap, albeit a lot of them can be a bunch of bunk themselves.

Anyway, My point is just that the diet/acne link is pretty credible not just from my personal experience but a lot of other people's as well (and studies do in fact exist making a link). Hey, ain't my prob if there isn't a demand within the field for more of these studies...Who's gonna fund them? they're not lucrative and people should be aware that docs and researchers aren't the oracle and don't have all the answers. remember accutane's a vit. A derivative....digitalis is made from a plant, penicillin came from mold, scinec is always looking to nature/the backyard to find solutions, or at least should be....I'm not going to wait, continue to eat food that clearly affects me just so that science can give me the technical explanation. A lot of meds are out there (anti depressants and even accutane are a good example) where science and docs DO NOT KNOW HOW they EXACTLY work, just that they do. DO WHAT WORKS. Don''t care 'bout the theory if it ain't workin' in practice>leave the useless theorie to the ivory tower airheads :dance:
The warmth of the sun reminds her of the day-she remembers the day when things were going her way-only memories remain-of the way she used to be-She stays home every night and exaggerates her past..all the old photographs were never thrown away-what made her cry-she'll never go back again-the way she used to be

#30 SweetJade1980

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 09:56 PM

Evigrex,
The ONLY reason I provided you any information is because you do seem genuinely interested in understanding this and how we've come to believe it is so. Unlike other members, you actually try to understand and even debate it with us. However, if you are going to ignore scientific evidence, which you've asked for, then why should we continue?

Roche's article, and I, have already established that Accutane is a DHT Inhbitor as well as an IGF-1 inhibitor, in that other thread about Soy. Furthermore, one of the above studies throws accutane (retinoids) right back in there with it being helpful in the treatment of acne. 13-cis retinoic acid specifically increases IGFBP-3 which binds IGF-1 and it also inhibits a 3alpha DHT enzyme. The studies have been posted, and if they aren't satisfactory you are more than welcome to find others. Just remember that accutane has more than one name.

Furthermore, I've already explained the connection to Diabetics and Insulin Resistance and acne on Page 1 of this thread. Yes, I have had 2 GTTs and my former endocrinoligist has given me back most of my test results, but my Insulin response wasn't one of them. However after lots of tests, urine, and blood samples he ruled out a variety of other hormonal disorders and declared that I was either Insulin Resistant or PCOS, either way, the treatments are still the SAME! While I do carry 5 - 6 symptoms, I rarely call myself PCOS as I don't have the "classic" symptoms. So I usually just tell strangers that I'm Insulin Resistant when they wonder about my diet. Insulin Resistance is actually thought to be the precursor to PCOS, Diabetes Type II (runs on my dad's side), Heart Disease, and a host of other health & hormonal disorders. Hence it's name is changing from Insulin Resitance to Syndrome X or better yet, Metabolic Syndrome.

In regards to treatments, he put me on Glucophage (Metaformin) and that made me sick, so I switched over to Avandia and that was much better. It and Spiro only managed to improve my acne by maybe 10% more than BC & Spiro did so I started to look for answers on these acne boards over 2 years ago. I found a great board, it encouraged me to think beyond the surface, and suddenly it made sense. Yet, I wasn't a believer until I changed my diet. In fact, my then endocrionolgist even said that I would have greater results if I chose the salad over the pizza or sandwhich (I'm underweight already so I didn't think I needed to). After I changed my diet, I still couldn't believe the results. I ended up going off of Avandia a few months after changing my diet and I was afraid that I would break out. Not to mention I was in a high stress situation with school, and no matter what, my skin just kept getting better. FYI, before I changed my diet, I was tested to see if I was Gluten Intolerant and the test came up negative.

To be honest the main reason I talk about Insulin Resistance is because it is the only thing that I've found that connects Adults back to Puberty. Puberty is defined as "a Temporary State of Insulin Resistance". Unfortunately, this was mentioned in one of the above studies, this is something that is continuing beyond puberty. Insulin has several functions, one of which is it's role in steroid hormone production. Since it encourages cholesterol synthesis maybe this is one way it affects our hormones. From there our bodies have a choice to become overwieght or produce steroid hormones from the cholesterol. Not to mention, that Hirsutism or Virilization, Hyperandrogenism, and a few other excess androgen related disorders are charactized as being Hyperinsulinemic. So insulin definately plays a role.

"We conclude that insulin resistance is linked to high cholesterol synthesis and decreased cholesterol absorption. Because fasting insulin correlated with cholesterol synthesis independent of the rates of BMI and WBGU, it is possible that regulation of cholesterol synthesis by hyperinsulinemia may be a link between insulin resistance and cholesterol metabolism."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14657199

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15016168


"Puberty is characterized by temporary insulin resistance, which subsides with the completion of pubertal development. This insulin resistance is manifested by lower rates of insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism and compensatory hyperinsulinemia in pubertal compared with prepubertal children."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11600557

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15181020


"Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) usually arises during puberty and is marked by hyperinsulinemia and hyperandrogenism. Adolescents with PCOS are at an increased risk of developing health problems later on in life such as type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and infertility. Furthermore, the physical signs of PCOS can be detrimental to a teenage girl's self-image. Early diagnosis and treatment of PCOS in adolescents are essential in ensuring adulthood health and restoring self-esteem. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15096648

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14715836

"The observed correlations support the hypothesis that insulin/IGF system plays role in the pathogenesis of hyperandrogenism in premature adrenarche and in later hormonal and metabolic changes."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12632745

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12364479


"Total IGF-I, P(0), ratio of P(0) and fasting insulin level, and log insulin area under the curve were higher, and SHBG was lower in the boys with PA, compared with controls. Decreased insulin sensitivity was suggested by decreased composite insulin sensitivity index. A trend toward greater triglycerides was observed in the boys with PA, compared with the controls. Prepubertal boys with PA show differences in the IGF system and decreased insulin sensitivity, independent of obesity, as observed in girls with PA. These findings suggest that both boys and girls with PA should be monitored for the development of insulin resistance and associated complications, including diabetes mellitus and cardiovascular disease."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12466359


While I certainly don't claim to "know it all", there is some sort of connection with IGF-1 and I know that it is involved in a negative feedback mechanism with Insulin. You get a release of Insulin and you will get a release of IGF-1 to bring Insulin levels back down. Yet if you don't have the IGFBP-3 protein to bind IGF-1, how is it going to come back down? Maybe it's now free to do more damage than it should by overstimulating your sebacous glands, cells, etc (as MANY other studies show). I also know that Insulin and Androgens are directly related, where as SHBG is inversly related (as many studies show). If you have a low SHBG, then you have more FREE ANDROGENS running around waiting to be converted into DHT! I'm sorry, I really don't see how much harder it is to comprehend than that. I've explained this over a dozen different ways and some people refuse to grasp it. The rule obviously doesn't apply 100% of the time as we all have our own specific genetic defects and they will manifest themselves accordingly (obesity, heart disease, etc instead of acne). I'm sorry if I'm not the best "teacher", but my goal isn't to prove anything to anyone...it's to help.

I have continually tried to show how foods affect our hormones and some people on here scoff, because they personally can't acheive the same or better results. I'm sorry, I changed my diet at least 3x in my lifetime before I got closer to right (99%). If it doesn't work the first time, why not break it down scientifically and see how maybe you should have tried it. My goal here is to provide information to those that do not have the luxury of going to see a specialist as I was forutnate enough to do. That do not have the money to spend on more cosmetics, topicals, etc. I am rather open-minded and a believer of all thing, as such, since the age of 11 I've tried a variety of prescription topicals, OTC topicals, herbs, supplements, exfoilaters, hormonal & insulin balancing drugs, and in the end "simple" dietary changes had the greatest impact.

Wheew...I sure am glad, cuz I am close to broke and I'm tired of fighting. I lost so much time using the above when there were dietary studies going back several decades that I would have gladly followed up on. I personally don't care what works for somebody as long as it works. This may be a natural forum, but I also dish out information on prescription drugs, right along with supplements because some people's sanity and emotional well-being matter a bit more than their health does at this moment (I hope that changes). In the end, I just don't want anyone to waste their time (over and over and over again), because unfortunately, once the hormones start to kick into high gear, some problems are much harder to reverse.

I don't piece together information to prove a point, I try to grab the most recent and relevant and sometimes it conflicts (check the dates). Yet just becomes some data conflicts is that reason to ignore the increasing and more recent other data? To ignore the results using insulin balancing meds? To ignore our own testimonies? I wish there were more studies out there that included all of these things, and in fact there are, but if you don't know what PCOS is, how can you find those links? If you don't know that certain hormonal disorders exist how can you find how they affect your hormones?

Hey, I'm sorry if I sound harsh too, I certainly don't mean to. Yet like others, I too have been continually attacked and insulted by some people on here all because I try to help the best way I know how. I care so much that, sometimes I disappear for awhile just to get a break from all the garbadge, that has thankfully decreased since getting seperate forums. None the less, it doesn't matter how many times I explain things or someone else does. It doesn't matter if I say I'm graduating with Biology degree and going into Dietetics. It doesn't matter that I've worked with other nutrionistis, biologists, and medical students on these boards. So...think what you want. You're clear, so it's all good right?

Take care
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#31 Chloe646

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 11:07 PM

SweetJade your info's understood and appreciated,

I went to an intense science based high school and even junior high ( I changed my stupid major in college but will go back to pursuing science)and your info and where your coming from I get.
You know what's intriguing, the fact that some people who have acne, they're parents never really had it and they can't point to a relative who's got it like they do...my mom always said it was my diet and I WISH i'd listened. Anyway, I went back to eating healthier and drinking a lot of water (I, like you have always been skinny, i could eat ice cream and chips and still be lanky but guess what my hair and face will turn into a greaseball) well, my pores within one week have unclogged by 60% and my hair no longer gets greasy, the nasty blackheads just dried up and i knew it had to be diet because last year my pores were pretty clear when I was adhering to my version of what's healthy for me. better than any toner or peel could ever acheive. they don't say YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT for nuthin.'
The warmth of the sun reminds her of the day-she remembers the day when things were going her way-only memories remain-of the way she used to be-She stays home every night and exaggerates her past..all the old photographs were never thrown away-what made her cry-she'll never go back again-the way she used to be

#32 SweetJade1980

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 12:25 AM

Chloe,
OMG you said it. What I would like people to do is compare their diets to what their parents and their grandparents ate. By doing so perhaps more of them would see that what we eat now is almost nothing like what previos generations in our family ate.

My mother's family didn't have money. They couldnt afford to eat at resturants let alone fast food and cooked everything themselves. ME? Well I recall having homecooked meals, but they continuously became more sparse as I've grown up. I recall definately having a steady diet of junk food as early as age 3 in school (life a.k.a. memory for me begins at this age). I recall having Tues and Thursday our "fun" days at the private school because we got to order fast food. I recall eating more candy, non-100% juices, pizzas, burgers, tacos, TV dinners, Canned food etc as I got older. Not only thanks to my school's providing it but also, my mom started buying the packaged stuff, and when I started shopping for myself a few years back, I was doing the same thing. Ha ha and I thought I was taking care of myself ;-)

When I think about it, Salads weren't big on my list. I thought I was doing the healthy thing by eating whole grains products. I loved the flavor of wheat breads, wheat thins, crackers, pasta, granola bars, trail mix, etc. I shied away from Cokes, Chocolate, and over time consumed less and less sweet stuff & deserts, but clearly that wasn't the whole answer for me. Ha ha ha...big joke on me. I know some people here had diets that were less fast food or refined foods based, and they too discovered that they were stil not eating quite "right." Of course my friends well some had occasional acne, others had wieght problems, or vision, or neurolgical problems and well...yeah some were thin and cleared skinned.

By now, I think we all know how effective twin studies are at showing how possible it is that environmental factors can have a greater influence on gene expression. Although animal behavior & development studies are much better at. Regardless, as such, more nutritionists and scientists are stating that it's these gene-environment interactions that play a role in our final outcomes. We absolutely wont become alcoholics if we never pick up a drink and we generally won't become obese if we don't consume foods that contribute to the problem. Of course, it can work the other way around. Our genes can be STRONGER than our "normal" environmental influences and I guess thats where medications (still environmental) come into play. Increasing studies are showing us that in some cases, we do have the ability to activate or deactivate genes all by adjusting our environment...how powerful is that? When it comes down to "Diseases of Lifestyle" or Lifestyle Based Diseases, that power is usually ours!

Thankfully, schools are changing their ways. Where I live they serve no more than 1 small serving of french fries per week and when all the deep fat fryers are broken, they won't be replaced. They are adding more fresh & healthy foods to the menu so that kids won't be tempted to run off to fast food places for lunch. They are either limiting the types or amounts of vending machines or eliminating them entirely depending on the grade level. There's a vending machine manufacturer that serves not just schools, colleges, but also businesses that will be revamping their products. They wil be adding healthier snack foods into the machines and serving up more ready made fruits, vegetables, salads, etc. Hey it's better than what I grew up on ;-)

Take care
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#33 evigrex

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 12:38 AM

Sweetjade, accutane does not "inhibit DHT". It inhibits 5-alpha-DHT receptors *in the skin* which is a different beast. I don't see a study anywhere showing that accutane inhibits DHT - DHT is not the same as 5-a-DHT, especially if the actions are on skin receptors.

Isotretinoin, tetracycline and circulating hormones in acne.

Palatsi R, Ruokonen A, Oikarinen A.

Department of Dermatology, University Central Hospital, Oulu, Finland.

Isotretinoin, used to treat severe acne, has been shown to induce hormonal changes, especially to reduce 5 alpha-reductase in the production of the tissue-derived dihydrotestosterone (DHT) metabolite 3 alpha-Adiol G. However, the effects of isotretinoin on other pituitary, adrenal or gonadal hormones have not been thoroughly elucidated. In the present study, isotretinoin administered at a dose of 0.5 mg/kg/day for 4 weeks caused no marked changes in the serum levels of pituitary, adrenal or gonadal hormones or 3 alpha-Adiol G in patients with severe papulopustulotic acne (n = 19). After 12 weeks of therapy, there was a decrease in the levels of the precursor androgens androstenedione, testosterone and 3 alpha-Adiol G in 6/9 patients. Acne improved after 4.5 months in all but 2 male patients, who had very low serum hormone binding globulins (SHBG) and a high free androgen index (FAI). Isotretinoin did not affect the elevated LH/FSH ratio in a patient with the polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS); nor did it change the high FAI or low SHBG in the male patients. For comparison, tetracycline had no effects on the serum hormonal levels of patients with mild acne (n = 19) after 7 days of treatment. This study confirms that the effects of isotretinoin on the serum hormone levels are small and unlikely to be of relevance for the resolution of acne or the suppression of sebum excretion.

Publication Types:

Effect of oral isotretinoin treatment on skin androgen receptor levels in male acneic patients.

Boudou P, Soliman H, Chivot M, Villette JM, Vexiau P, Belanger A, Fiet J.

Department of Hormonal Biology, St. Louis University Hospital, Paris, France.

An oral daily dose (mean +/- SD, 0.75 +/- 0.05 mg/kg) of isotretinoin was administered for 3 months to six male patients with acne (scores of 4 and 5 according to Rosenfield). The therapy resulted in complete resolution of acne in four patients and improved acne significantly (score 1) in two patients. In accordance with recent findings, no change in serum testosterone and significant decreases in 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone, 5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol glucosiduronate, and androsterone glucosiduronate levels were observed after treatment. Androgen receptor status was investigated in back skin biopsies obtained in acne areas before and after 3 months of isotretinoin treatment. The treatment did not modify the binding affinity constant of skin androgen receptor (0.44 vs. 0.32 nmol/L), but it did induce a 2.6-fold decrease in its binding capacity constant (62 vs. 24 fmol/mg cytosolic protein), as assessed by Scatchard plot and confirmed immunologically by Western blot analysis. These data clearly showed that skin androgen receptor was sensitive to oral isotretinoin administration in acneic patients. The decrease in skin androgen receptor levels (this study) and the recently reported suppression of skin 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone production by isotretinoin treatment appeared consistent with the involvement of androgen receptor and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone in the pathogenesis of acne. Indeed, sebum production is under androgen control, and an abnormal response of the pilosebaceous unit to androgens appears to be implicated in the pathogenesis of acne. These observations were consistent with the absence of sebum in complete androgen-insensitive patients and normal sebum production in male pseudohermaphrodites.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 7714084 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Clinical Trial

PMID: 9298137 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
before you judge me take a look at you
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point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"

#34 SweetJade1980

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 01:25 AM

Evigrex,
Whether you want to call it an Anti-androgen or a DHT Inhibitor is up to you. I'm under the impression that an anti-androgen blocks the effects of DHT or Testosterone by preventing them from binding to androgen receptors. Where as a DHT Inhibitor prevents the actual production of DHT by reducing/inhibiting the neccessary enzymes. OK, so based on those studies it shows that accutane may just be....both. Do you really want to argue over this?


QUOTE
Isotretinoin, used to treat severe acne, has been shown to induce hormonal changes, especially to reduce 5 alpha-reductase in the production of the tissue-derived dihydrotestosterone (DHT) metabolite 3 alpha-Adiol G........  After 12 weeks of therapy, there was a decrease in the levels of the precursor androgens androstenedione, testosterone and 3 alpha-Adiol G in 6/9 patients. Acne improved after 4.5 months in all but 2 male patients, who had very low serum hormone binding globulins (SHBG) and a high free androgen index (FAI).


See, again males CAN have too much Free Testosterone.


QUOTE
The decrease in skin androgen receptor levels (this study) and the recently reported suppression of skin 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone production by isotretinoin treatment appeared consistent with the involvement of androgen receptor and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone in the pathogenesis of acne. Indeed, sebum production is under androgen control, and an abnormal response of the pilosebaceous unit to androgens appears to be implicated in the pathogenesis of acne. These observations were consistent with the absence of sebum in complete androgen-insensitive patients and normal sebum production in male pseudohermaphrodites.



QUOTE
Dihydrotestosterone is a peripheral paracrine hormone
R. Horton
Department of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles 90033.

Androgen action in sexual tissues, especially skin and the prostate, is expressed by dihydrotestosterone (DHT) acting at the nuclear level. Dihydrotestosterone in the circulation and target tissues is almost solely derived from the peripheral conversion of secreted testosterone (T) in men and androstenedione in women. The general pathway is testosterone----DHT in equilibrium with androstanediol (3 alpha diol). However, a number of studies suggest that blood DHT or 3 alpha diol are not reliable indicators of peripheral DHT formation. This is particularly suggested by discrepancies in the specific activity of DHT in blood and urine following infusion of labeled DHT, suggesting that total body DHT formation is not reflected by blood levels. Thus, DHT should be thought of as a paracrine hormone formed and acting primarily in target tissues. 3 alpha androstanediol glucuronide (3 alpha diol G) is a major metabolite of DHT. An important site of its formation is the skin. Levels in blood and urine are increased in hirsutism and acne, and blood levels closely parallel pubertal development. 3 alpha diol G levels are especially increased in adrenal disorders of androgenicity such as andrenogenital syndrome; it is also a good marker of response to therapy. Levels are reduced in various forms of male pseudohermaphroditism. 3 alpha androstanediol glucuronide appears to be the best marker available of DHT formation in target tissues such as skin.
http://www.andrology...bstract/13/1/23



It seems to me that what you are arguing the most for is that accutane affects DHT levels in the skin only, right? Yet from what I've read, DHT is only produced when it interacts with androgen receptors on it's target tissues (prostate, skin, muscle) so that's a given. As such, it also has the ability to affect people's prostate or muscles postively, or negatively, depending on your outlook in regards to DHT inhbition and/or tissue growth. So, I don't know what to say except, it's still a DHT Inhibitor or ...anti-androgen.


Nighty Night
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#35 aaa

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 02:24 AM

High insulin may be a contributing factor in acne, nearsightedness, male pattern balding, as well as many other things.

Hyperinsulinemic diseases of civilization: more than just Syndrome X.

Source:
Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol (Comparative biochemistry and physiology. Part A, Molecular & integrative physiology.) 2003 Sep; 136(1): 95-112
Additional Info: United States

Standard No:
ISSN: 1095-6433; 1531-4332; NLM Unique Journal Identifier: 9806096

Language:
English

Abstract:
Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well-recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well-established growth-promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and androgens, while simultaneously reducing insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor alpha, insulin-mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body's endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues, the clinical course of which may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X.

#36 flipside

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 02:48 AM

thanks aaa, but i think that one was posted already... check page 2.

and thanks for helping me that time i locked my keys in the car, hahaha... j/k.
(that really did happen though)

#37 cynic

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 05:56 AM

Phew...some heavy reading here!

#38 SweetJade1980

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 09:47 AM

Flipside,
Yup, Insulin Resistance has been associated with select cancers as well. You definately may want to look into the IGF-1 connecton of cancers and perhaps see what foods and supplements are best to use or avoid.



AAA,
Thanks so much for mentioning the myopia. I was reading a Paleodiet article and it mentioned that was a sign of Insulin Resistance or Type II Diabetes and I believe it mentioned having a defective 13-cis retinoic pathway as well. Anyway, I hadn't found any such connection, but I had heard that diabetics had vision problems due to having too much sugar in the blood which could cause problems in the eyes. So about 2 months into my diet, I started gettng headaches and noticed that my vision was slightly blurry. I was really worried that my eyesight had gotten worse, yet when I went to the eye doctor he said "no wonder you had headaches. your prescription is too strong"

LOL, I have been using that prescription for 3 years and never had headaches or blurry problems and he wanted to lower my prescription. Needless to say I was a bit hesistant about how well I would see, but sure enough I see just as I good as I did before I switched my diet. Did the diet change help my vision some, who knows, but I've never had to reduce my prescrpritions before. ;-)


Take Care,

P.S. Cynic, sorry about the "heavy" reading ;-)
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#39 aaa

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 11:19 AM

Yeah... I wish I would have known about myopia and carbs BEFORE I had to get glasses. My vision has not gotten any worse in the last couple years, so I guess I can't complain.
I think the palieodiet is interesting... I do something more geared toward bodybuilding though. It's based on a book called Natural Hormone Enhancement (NHE) Basicaly I eat very low carb everyday (around 20 grams, all from veggies) and two nights a week (Sun., & Wed.) I have a high carb meal (100 grams + ) right before bed. The carb meals are supposed to refill glycogen stores and help with weight training. I would recommend against the carb ups if a person was not lifting weights regularly.
I started doing NHE recently, but I did Atkins strict for a month before that. Anyway, my skin cleared up about 2 weeks after I started eating low carb... It's not perfect, but much better.

#40 evigrex

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 11:19 AM

Oh, I see what I need to do right? Spam you with 20 studies showing you that accutane has no effect on the production of male sex hormones. accutanedoes not lower testosterone or lower the conversion of testosterone to dht.

Period! Stop saying its a dht inhibitor. Accutane would be used as a treatment for something vastly different than acne if that were the case, and once again...maybe you missed that its inhibiting something *OTHER THAN DHT* in the skin. This doesn't state that there is an effect of the production of a sex hormone by the pituitary! These studies took *blood measurements* of testosterone, DHEA, and DHT before, during and after treatment - NO DIFFERENCE in the amount produced.

By the way, you never answered the questions I presented.

-Since so many of your diet studies are based on people that are *insulin resistant*, does that mean that normal people with adequate insulin sensitivity unaffected by this?

-Why do diabetics and insulin resistant people not suffer from acne more than the "normal" population if such a diet link exists.?

-Why do diabetics and insulin resistant males suffer from impotance due to lower than normal production of testosterone, and erectile disfunction? From your standpoint, these people should be hyperandrogenic.

-What is your definition of hyperandrogenism. gimme some numbers...what amount of testosterone must one produce to classify as this?

This is where your argument falls apart. You claim that people that are insulin resistant produce more IGF-1 and androgens than the normal population. You, yourself are apparently insulin resistant (EVEN THOUGH your doc has never done a Hemocrit A1c or an insulin sensitivity test...wthatever). Then why, are insulin resistant people (which by the way, is rare in someone that is <20) not suffering from acne at an increased rate over the healthy population.

And I don't think you've posted a DIRECT study on diet and acne, yet. You're just trying to find bits and pieces that support your theory no matter how loose the connections are...if you can find some studies that show a direct correlation between acne and diet, then i'll be impressed.
before you judge me take a look at you
can't you find something better to do
point the finger, slow to understand
arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

- Metallica, "holier than thou"