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#21 BenKweller

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 10:53 PM

You become middle-aged cured your acne. I'm sorry for the coincidence.

If you knew what a caustic was, you'd see how hilarious your last argument was. Lye's are "strong" caustics but there are circumstances where even weak caustics can be effective in producing low-quality soap. Caustic which, as you'd learn if you owned a dictionary, is "A substance capable of burning, corroding, dissolving, or eating away by chemical action." Ever heard this theory about acids corroding or dissolving anything? Yes. They are caustics.

Citric acid is a caustic. Now, review that last part about your government conspiracy about them injecting them into lemons and try to resist the urge to push the edit button.

#22 BenKweller

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 10:56 PM

Oh and why sometimes it produces and others it doesn't? Because saponification is often hit and miss based on time allowed, temperature, pressure exerted on it, etc... In other words, lots of little things you digestive system does can either create or not create soap. Often, they may just not survive the ride down and will end of looking like nothing.

#23 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 08:14 AM

Now that's funny. I've searched high and wide on the internet for information about lemons and grapefruits causing saponfication and cannot find anything. Wanna provide a link? biggrin.gif

#24 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 09:28 AM

Let's start with this link: http://en.wikipedia..../Saponification

#25 MechE06

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 10:31 AM

Hi Nico and Denise smile.gif

I think I read in another post that you cleared up your acne with flushing Denise, have you had any new flare-ups since you've started flushing?

And Nico, how has flushing helped you?

#26 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 10:42 AM

Flushing alone didn't clear my acne. I've emphasized the importance of bowel cleansing, and I detoxed all the heavy metals from my body. Mercury from silver amalgams (fillings) converts to methyl mercury in the gut, causing serious candida overgrowth. Candida overgrowth can cause acne as well. For me, it was a three-pronged approach.

I can break out now if I don't maintain my liver and bowel, but it's pretty negligible.

Read this link: http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/acne.html

#27 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:12 AM

You are right Denise; I was hasty in my assertion that it was acid + oil that made the soap. Clearly, the acid is the catalyst in the reaction. What EXACTLY do you, personally, digest during your "liver flushes?"

#28 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:15 PM

Safflower oil, grapefruit, and draino. biggrin.gif

#29 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:40 PM

I take that as a sign that you admit to my being correct here. Thanks.

#30 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:47 PM

Uh, no. Take that as a sign that the link I provided provided proof for certain that lemon is not an "acid" that causes saponification.

And you never provided a link stating such. You are beginning to embarass yourself. You are reaching for any explanation, and it's obvious to everyone who can read that that is exactly what you are doing.

There isn't any evidence I can find anywhere that lemon or grapefruit has any ability to cause saponfication.

So once again, I'll ask for the link. I provided one. Now you do the same to prove your case.

#31 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:51 PM

What about a lemon to find to have such amazing powers? It contains citric acid. The acid is a catalyst with some base which, when reacting with the oil, explains quite simply why the reaction can take place so "quickly" (others point out that saponification takes days). The only one embarassing themselves here is the one among us who believes anything they read on the internet (first, the liverflushing, then "provide me a link that proves this").

If you need explanation of what a catalyst is, please ask.

#32 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:53 PM

Saponification is the reaction of a metallic alkali (base) with a fatty ester to form soap. Saponification is the making of soap.

CH2-OOC-R - CH-OOC-R - CH2-OOC-R (fat)


+ 3 NaOH ( or KOH)

both heated --->>

CH2-OH -CH-OH - CH2-OH (glycerol)

+ 3 R-CO2-Na (soap)

R=(CH2)14CH3 (for example)

Sodium chloride is added to precipitate the soap.


Lye is a form of sodium hydroxide which is a caustic base. If NaOH is used a hard soap is formed, whereas a soft soap is formed when KOH is used.

Animal fat is a fatty ester in the form of triacylglycerol. The alkali breaks the ester bond and releases the fatty acid and glycerol.

The soap is salted out by precipitating it with sodium chloride.

Saponification is often generalized to refer to the breaking of ester bonds using a caustic alkali.

Soap Mummies

Saponification can also refer to the conversion of fat and other soft tissue in a corpse into adipocere. This process is more common where the amount of fatty tissue is high, the agents of decomposition absent or only minutely present, and the burial ground is particularly alkali.


**Since many of the intrahepatic stones are composed of cholesterol, bilirubin, and bile, then they are usually soft. I have passed 3 white, hard, calcified stones also. But let's say that they are soft. According to this information, KOH would be used in saponfication.

So is KOH lemon or grapefruit?

#33 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:56 PM

What type of drugs have you been ingesting? Do you know what sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide are? Clearly, you don't. You are being the textbook example of a bad researcher in that you are relying on sources that dumb down. Saponification occurs between ANY caustic and an oil if certain conditions are right. The fact that citric acid is there is a good catalyst for this and any food in your stomach easily provides the alkalinity needed for the reaction. I, as I don't spend the hours needed to care this much, don't research what bases are consumed in a "flush" but clearly they exist.

Once again, saponification in soap making uses NaOH (for solid soap) or KOH (for liquid) but I am talking saponification as in the reaction; not in the soap-producing sense. Wikipedia won't help you with this, Denny.

Remember just what saponification is; oil's properties changing as a result of being broken by a caustic (either acid or base though almost always base because they are more efficiently corrosive). Any other questions?

#34 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:58 PM

:dance: Still waiting for that link.... :whistle: :think:

#35 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:59 PM

What link? Have you even taken the time to read my posts. Anyone who has the ability to learn chemistry can understand what I've been saying. Unlike you, this goes on actual understanding of science and not on an undying love for Google.

If you have anything else to contribute here, please do so because you are just getting desperate.

#36 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE
Lye is a form of sodium hydroxide which is a caustic base. If NaOH is used a hard soap is formed, whereas a soft soap is formed when KOH is used.


Note the term "caustic" which means corrosive.

QUOTE
Animal fat is a fatty ester in the form of triacylglycerol. The alkali breaks the ester bond and releases the fatty acid and glycerol.


The alkali referred to here goes off of the idea that saponification needs NaOH or KOH. It doesn't. Again, any caustic which can break the ester bond in the oil will result in the reaction carrying through though in varying degrees of effectiveness. The acid you ingest, citric, will, therefore, act as both a caustic AND a catalyst once it's limiting reactant properties have been acted out. Following me here?

QUOTE
Saponification is often generalized to refer to the breaking of ester bonds using a caustic alkali.


Once again, bonds can be broken by any caustic. Your reliable "research" has only produced the dumbed-down version appropriate for most high schoolers.

Good job,

#37 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:13 PM

Ben, I assure you I can read. But you keep asserting as FACT that lemon and grapefruit juice is CAUSTIC ENOUGH to cause saponification. Prove it. You keep stating it is a fact. But I missed that theory in science class. I have also not seen this theory on the internet anywhere. Lye is pretty strong....you are equating the small amount of citric acid in lemons and grapefruits with lye, or KOH, which can cause great harm if ingested.

You are reaching towards a theory that isn't proven. If you are such a serious scientist, please prove it at your house. Surely, you being the brilliant scientist and whatnot can prove this rather easily. Do oranges have the same effect? What about clementines? Nectarines?

Again...you are embarassing yourself by trying to infer that I'm an idiot. You are trying to float this theory when nothing could be further from the truth, and you know it. There isn't enough "caustic" material in lemons or grapefruits to cause saponification. That's not proven. If it was true, all the soapmakers in the world would use citric acid instead of lye; probably a lot cheaper.

#38 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:20 PM

Lemons are actually much more expensive than the $6 you can pay to produce pounds of effective NaOH soap. As I said, what you producing by "flushing" are simply low-quality pieces of soap; stronger caustics work better.

You are not finding the research online because you are finding soap making information which is quite separate from saponification as a strict chemical reaction; find a nice college chemistry book at your local library and see if you can find it (even that's a maybe because anyone writing a book that advanced will assume the researcher knows what a caustic is...). The reaction needed to break ester bonds is not always one that requires a extremely caustic substance; that's why flushing is so funny. You produce stones of varying quality for this very reason.

In a college course, I once produced 2 oz. of very very sloppy soap using palm oil and vinegar. Surprisingly enough, though, it seemed quite solid once I exerted pressure on it. Your intestines can do this just as well. Good luck flushing but the only thing your liver has to do with it is wondering why you're eating Dove.

#39 Denise2

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:36 PM

Right. And that explains why people's symptoms just happen to go away when they stop producting "soap stones". That's why they can even do three flushes and nothing comes out That's why ultrasounds prove that stones are gone. That's why we have posted copies of lab reports proving calcified stones were passed. That's why people's symptoms disappear (like my severe chemical sensitivities) as well as .

All you are doing is stating what you THINK is happening, without proof. All you can do is state what you've experimented with, but you've never experimented with lemons or grapefruits. You try to assert this as fact, but the fact is that you cannot even prove what you are saying.

Saponification usually only happens under extremely controlled circumstances. I am no scientist, but I know that much, even from high school chemistry class.

#40 BenKweller

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:07 PM

QUOTE
Saponification usually only happens under extremely controlled circumstances.


Ha. That's funny. Saponification can happen very easily under many circumstances; it's a process that was used thousands of years ago in less than "extremely controlled circumstances."

The placebo effect can do a lot.