goodlife

AMVC spontaneous scarring

518 posts in this topic

hahahah oh noes accutane is evil !!

Did you even read the study you posted ? god damn scare tactics giving a damn good drug with more positive results then negative a bad name.

you should be ashamed of yourself i hope your little post doesn't shy ppl away from a wonderful drug that has clear millions of people world wide

from the study YOU POSTED

AND I QUOTE !

Based on a pedigree assembled by Qu et al2 and reported in 2005, they suggested that AMVC is of autosomal dominant inheritance.

Because Atrophia maculosa varioliformis cutis can run in families, physical examination of family members may be helpful to rule out a familial disorder and discover other family members with the disease.

No definitive cause has been established for atrophia maculosa varioliformis cutis (AMVC), although skin biopsy specimens for histologic and ultrastructural studies suggest an underlying elastic tissue disorder. Familial cases of AMVC have also been documented.5,6,7 The few associated findings noted were extrahepatic biliary disease8 and pachydermodactyly.9

HOW DARE YOU BLAME THE DRUG ACCUTANE OR EVEN COD LIVER OIL FOR YOUR "SPONTANEOUS SCARRING"

WHY DONT YOU GO BLAME YOUR GENES ! !!!!!!!! NO WHERE IN THAT STUDY DOES IT MENTION EVEN ONCE ISOTRENOIN !!! ARGH

p.s. sorry for the spelling and punctuation errors i needed to reply to this quick as it really got me PISSED

Edited by s.m.

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When you have scars appearing in from of your eyes from areas of your face that haven't broken out for years then come and tell me how pissed you feel.

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I am blessed to be the way I am, for God doesn't look at any appearance but rather look unto thy heart.


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hahahah oh noes accutane is evil !!

Did you even read the study you posted ? god damn scare tactics giving a damn good drug with more positive results then negative a bad name.

you should be ashamed of yourself i hope your little post doesn't shy ppl away from a wonderful drug that has clear millions of people world wide

from the study YOU POSTED

AND I QUOTE !

Based on a pedigree assembled by Qu et al2 and reported in 2005, they suggested that AMVC is of autosomal dominant inheritance.

Because Atrophia maculosa varioliformis cutis can run in families, physical examination of family members may be helpful to rule out a familial disorder and discover other family members with the disease.

No definitive cause has been established for atrophia maculosa varioliformis cutis (AMVC), although skin biopsy specimens for histologic and ultrastructural studies suggest an underlying elastic tissue disorder. Familial cases of AMVC have also been documented.5,6,7 The few associated findings noted were extrahepatic biliary disease8 and pachydermodactyly.9

HOW DARE YOU BLAME THE DRUG ACCUTANE OR EVEN COD LIVER OIL FOR YOUR "SPONTANEOUS SCARRING"

WHY DONT YOU GO BLAME YOUR GENES ! !!!!!!!! NO WHERE IN THAT STUDY DOES IT MENTION EVEN ONCE ISOTRENOIN !!! ARGH

p.s. sorry for the spelling and punctuation errors i needed to reply to this quick as it really got me PISSED

Do you realise accutane alters DNA transcription? Why do you think it reduces sebum output permanently in some people? It is an ANTI CANCER drug. Look it up. The effects aren't limited to the skin, hence the huge list of side effects. Even crosses the blood brain barrier readily.

Edited by lamarr1986

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No doubt, accutane is a powerful drug. One that would be best left alone, unless absolutely needed. But I have seen no official evidence that it scars a face more. That seems sort of counterproductive, and considering how fast lawyers are willing to to start class action suits these days... I'm pretty sure we would have been hearing about it all over the place if there was really any proof of that happening. I don't know why numerous people are convinced it has done this. I just think they really can't see their face fully until it's clear, and then they see the scars. I'm not a scientist, but I also have a very hard time believing that something as basic as cod liver oil could possibly alter skin in a physical manner, or in such a short period of time. Very few things in nature happen that rapidly. Look at all the people who abuse alcohol, drugs and all kind of harmful things... It takes years of constantly being inundated with a substance to see actual physical evidence of damage.

Edited by Dave99

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Accutane causes scarring by:

increasing acne breakouts...causing scabbing...and prolonged acne on the face.

Usually it will make it significantly worse before it gets better.

That combined with the prolonged lesions or cysts on the face will cause scarring most likely.

Some people scar easier than others, however.

Other than that it is possible that afterwards accutane makes skin more sensitive to scarring. That may or may not be true.

I think there is a good chance it is somewhat true.

However the odds of an internal supplement helping your scarring or making it worse are just too outlandish to me.

Also the unsubstantiated claims of fish oil. So basically by your logic you should not eat fish. Ever or foods that have omega fatty acids or foods that are high in Vitamin A.

The skin has multiple layers and overtime those layers as well as the amount of collagen can and does change. Just the way it is.

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Accutane is known to cause delayed wound healing (hence the hyperpigmentation and atrophic scarring) when the wound healing time is increased (due mostly in part to increase inflammation) you end up with scarring and/or hyperpigmentation. Both of which are much more likely whilst on accutane and if a person is effected by accutane strongly enough, their wound healing can be forever impaired.

I for one experience this aswell, due to accutane. I didn't have ANY scarring before i was on tane.

Edited by lamarr1986

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I'm pretty sure I didn't have any scarring before on accutane either.

Also I have a couple lesions on my shoulders...my shoulders broke out badly during accutane then...scabbed up and healed.

What happenes was on my shoulders the area that scabbed up and healed caused a couple minor like keloids basically look like tiny bubble like things...and are here to stay.

Accutane made me breakout worse than i ever had in my life during hte first 1-2 months while on it...and the acne didn't go away until month 3 or so...so basically I had bad acne/scabbing on my face during that time period and that caused my scarring.

I wish I knew as much as I did about skin and regiments now when I was younger...didn't really know how to take care of my skin the correct way and build an effective regimen. THe doctors didn't really effectively tell me how to use the products they prescribed ultimately leading my way to go on accutane.

I guess past is now the past and I cannot sit and worry about whatever is done...I mainly have scarring on my right cheek and it's even harder to treat scarring, let alone can be pricey and result in painful downtime...and risk of even making it worse.

I recommend to you this man:

If you are thinking of accutane.

First try a regimen of tazorac in the evenings and benzaclin the mornings and minocycline twice a day.

Use tazorac in the evenings on dry skin .1% gel.

use benzaclin in the mornings....after you wash your face with a "gentle face wash" like cetaphil gentle...then apply a moisturizer with SPF15.

Then in the evenings shave or do whatever...let your skin dry...then before applying tazorac you can apply a very light moisturizer like Olay oil free or cetaphil moisturizer (i prefer the olay) OR lately I've just been using aloe vera gel after I shave...let it dry...then apply tazorac.

I think a regimen like that would help your acne. Tazorac is what some would say...is accutane for the skin like a topical accutane ...almost...

But that helped me get clear after I started breaking out again a couple years after accutane.

Now my regimen I don't apply anything in mornings anymore. I apply tazorac one night, the next night benzaclin...and I go interchangeably between the two and it is easier on my skin. What I mentioned to you is a rigid and tough routine to adhere to...but it may help you.

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I had this problem with fish oil. Even foods high in 03 would cause it even after stopping the fish oil. The answer for me was to supplement borage and evening primrose. You have to reverse a deficiency of GLA/06. It took me about three months to stop the scarring and 6 months to start to see the scars begin to heal. Scars are 50-80% better now.(and I got these 8 years! ago after taking fish oil for a year) Topical primrose will help hasten this process.

I cant believe how easy it was to turn this problem around once I figured out the cause. Needless suffering! Wish I had never heard about fish oil. Omega 3 can cause problems for those with insulin resistance (which is what a lot of people with acne have!) insulin resistance causes a deficiency with the enzyme that converts 06 to GLA and without GLA you will scar! The fish oil most definitely halted the breakouts and inflammation BUT then I started scaring from even tiny blackheads and simple scratches and those spontaneous scars ugh. And I got seb. dermatitis and other many other health skin problems.

03 eliminates inflammation but without inflammation you will scar. Too much inflammation = scars but also not enough inflammation = scars.

You need a balance of 03 and 06 to create the perfect amount of inflammation and hormonal balance.

.

Took me years to figure it out. Even now I have to avoid 03 sources. Watch out for herbs and teas that reduce eliminate inflammation, they act like 03 in my body and cause scars. (ie green tea, chia seeds, even too many greens like when I tried green smoothies) Take notes when you add any new supplement of food to your diet.

Here is my response to the person who overdosed on cod liver oil/vit A as to why this is happening:

please stop taking the fish oil and other forms of natural vitamin a (foods high in vit A or high in omega 3) This happened to me and I was able to reverse it in three months by stopping all forms of vit. A and omega 3.

MOST IMPORTANT!! is to start taking EVENING PRIMROSE OIL or BORAGE. These are omega 6 rich oils and the opposite of omega 3 oil. These have the activated form of GLA which is 100% necessary to reverse the enzyme deficiencies created by fish oil/vit A/omega 3 excess.

High dose omega 3 oils create a deficiency of omega 6/GLA production which interferes with hormonal production and will many symptoms including hair loss and dry thin skin which is prone to scar. The rash and infection you are seeing are because the skin requires omega 6/GLA in the sebum to prevent infection and irritation. There is plenty of research about this don't take my word for it! This is reversible.

Look up UDo Erasmus, he is the leading researcher of essential fatty acids, these effects happened to him when he took too much flax oil which is high in 03 fatty acids.

When you first start taking EPO/or borage; work your way up to at least 6 (1300mg) capsules a day or more (10% of your calories should be from omega 6 oils) you might experience a break out, worsening of hair fall out, worsening of any current symptoms (i did) but once I got past the first two months I knew I was back on track. Even after a year I still must avoid 03/fish oil, it can take a lot of time to reverse this ESPECIALLY if you have insulin resistance -those with insulin resistance are more prone to deficiencies in

GLA because the enzyme that converts 06 to GLA is defective/slow because of high insulin. This causes a build up or affinity towards 03 and subsequent deficiency in GLA, which is why you must use an 06 supplement with GLA like borage or primrose.

Edited by freedom

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great post freedom! I know i definitely scarred more too whilst on fish oil, so ive since stopped. now you negative posters out there, dont try and discount this - as i think we all know our bodies more than you. ive never taken accutane either. i definitely can see how fish oil can stop inflamation, whilst at the same time a certain level is needed.

thanks for all the info buddy.... so detailed too ! :)

Edited by cartwheeling_monkey

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Thank you very much Freedom, I stopped taking the cod liver oil a a while ago and the scarring seems to have stopped now. Interesting about the evening primrose oil, I thought that might have the same effect as the fish oils.


I am blessed to be the way I am, for God doesn't look at any appearance but rather look unto thy heart.


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If your skin is still under the influence of 03 then when you start taking primrose/GLA you will still be prone to scarring. The skin is still thin and fragile so you have to be careful during the first three months (time could differ for you personally). After this time the skin thickens back up, fats and collagen and water hydration return and scarring will not occur.

My experience was that I knew I needed the primrose but when I would supplement it my skin would get inflamed and break out (more scars!). The lower layers of my skin had lots of build up of old skin cells and these needed to be brought to the surface. I would stop the primrose every time this process started, but finally made myself stick it through. Glad I did.

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Also wanted to add,

I think these spontaneous scars are just sun damage in the lower layers of the skin; as the skin thins you see them. They resemble sun damage type of scarring you see in older adults as they loose collagen.

When the skin plumps back with the right fats up they go away.

Question for those with this spontaneous scarring--have you had any serious sun burns or prolonged sun exposure? Tanning beds?

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+1 for anecdotal evidence accutane causes scarring

i have slight indentations from where i had acne my 2nd time on accutane

not sure if it caused any scars my 1st time on it, but i was very cognizant the 2nd time around

the weird thing is i dont think they were very apparent while i was on accutane. it was only after i stopped that it became more pronounced

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I do not have AMVC scarring but I've been following this thread to try to determine why my existing acne scars so badly now even though the acne itself is less severe than it was when I didn't scar.

Freedom's post is very interesting to me as I've always had terrible reactions to fish and cod liver oil supplements- hive-like acne bumps and rashes a few days after I start supplementation which stop forming as soon as I stop taking the pills. Because of this, I've never taken fish oil for an extended period of time, as I could never understand why it affected me so negatively.

I had some definite clearance of my skin with low doses of evening primrose oil but I don't think the scarring stopped; I could only take it for about two weeks though because I suddenly started getting GI distress and my hormones went wacky. I take hemp oil (has GLA and omega 3s) every day now and it helps my skin a bit, but I'm still scarring from everything. I eat a ton of kale and veggies and drink 3 cups of rooibos tea a day, and have chia seeds with breakfast and salmon for dinner 2-3x/week.

Is it possible that omega 3s and anti-inflammatory foods could be a cause for my scarring even though I've never supplemented with fish oil or Vitamin A for long periods of time, or taken Accutane? I just can't figure out why my skin is suddenly so fragile...

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Another piece of info-I too have taken accutane in the past.

And I get odd hives and rashes from fish oil and 03 sources.

Perhaps accutane disrupts the 06 conversion to GLA more permanently than insulin resistance.

To Quirky- if you are unbalanced in 06/GLA you will go through some adjustment stages. When GLA is low hormones are a bit messed up.

I cant even take a teaspoon of chi seed without it causing dry and thin skin (dry lips) -my clues to my 03/06 ratio. Green veggies have considerable amount of 03 (when compared to 06). I also think that when 03 is high calcium is lowered. Taking calcium has helped prevent scarring during times of high 03/fish oil. I now require less calcium than when my 03 was high.

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I think insulin resistance is key with the reason 03/fish oil causing scarring in some people.

I have insulin resistance and high blood insulin as well as family history of heart disease and diabetes.

I also have hypoglycemia.

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The importance of GLA to the body’s biochemistry is inestimable, and cannot be overstated. It is not so much the GLA that is so important, but the prostaglandin to which it is converted in the body. Prostaglandin E1 is a hormone-like substance that plays a part in many of the biochemical and metabolic processes of the body. Examples include the control of the immune system and inflammatory response, some kidney functions, and the tone of the arterial muscles, so important in the health of the cardiovascular system.

A good fatty acid metabolism benefits some very important aspects of our health such as maintaining a good blood pressure, low cholesterol levels, preventing inflammatory and immune system conditions such as arthritis, allergies and some skin diseases such as eczema and psoriasis, and also improving the strength of the keratin-dependent tissues such as our nails and hair.

A deficiency in essential fatty acids also seems to stimulate the overproduction of a hormone in women called prolactin that can lead to the severe mood changes commonly referred to as pre-menstrual syndrome, or PMS. GLA appears to have a beneficial effect in the treatment of PMS, and some other conditions such as breast discomfort.

Gamma linolenic acid is created in the body from linoleic acid, of which there is a plentiful supply in margarine, vegetable oils and many processed foods, but there is a problem. Fatty acid molecules come in different isomeric forms, in which although the chemical is the same, the geometry or ‘stereochemistry’ is different. The healthy form is the ‘cis’ formation, and the other is the ‘trans’ stereoisomer. The trans fatty acids are formed by hydrogenation of oils to make them semi-solid, and more suitable for spreading. This hydrogenation process causes an irreversible change in the geometry of the fatty acid that can block the conversion of linoleic acid to GLA in the body.

Hence, although most of the western population has more than sufficient linoleic acid in their diets, many who eat an excess of trans fats have a deficiency of GLA. Some B vitamin deficiencies and a deficiency in certain minerals exacerbate this situation, and a gamma linolenic acid supplement is needed. Additional to this, the enzyme responsible for the conversion, delta-6-desaturase (D6D) can be affected by many modern environmental factors such as smoking, stress, alcohol, excessive animal fat consumption and even excessive linoleic acid consumption. The solution to all of this is GLA which does not require any enzymes for its creation, and supplemental GLA from any source can immediately take part in the biochemical pathway to the creation of the prostaglandin eicosanoids.

GLA provides the means and the resultant prostaglandins carry out the job of regulating the hormonal activity within human biochemistry. Prostaglandins help to regulate the function of many of the cells in the body, such as the smooth muscle cells of the arteries and veins that cause constriction or dilation, and on the stickiness of blood platelets causing their aggregation. They are important in the regulation of such functions as blood clotting, fluid balance and the production and balance of hormones. The anti-inflammatory properties of prostaglandin E1 are very important to the way that the body reacts to breaches by foreign invaders, and it is also thought to act to thin the blood and cause dilation of blood vessels, hence its effect in lowering the blood pressure.

So what does this mean to you, apart from the effects of the fatty acid on PMS? Borage oil can be used to treat a large number of different symptoms associated with a shortage of GLA and prostaglandin E1, and here are a few of the conditions for which a GLA supplement has been found beneficial.

A deficiency in GLA and other essential fatty acids can lead to loss of bone mass and subsequent osteoporosis and it is thought that fatty acids help the absorption of calcium by the digestive system, and to increase its deposit in bones. It can be used to increase bone mass and density and therefore strengthen the bones of those affected by osteoporosis. This is partially due to the hormone regulatory effect GLA has on the body.

Allergies appear to be very personal responses by the immune system to specific substances, and while borage oil has proved beneficial in a few allergies, and prostaglandins are known to regulate the activity of the immune response, the effectiveness of GLA treatment for allergies has been mixed. There is evidence that it can affect some cases, but not most.

GLA from borage oil can reduce the swelling and pain of rheumatoid arthritis, and helps to ease morning stiffness. Its effectiveness seems mixed, and you should try it for two or three months to determine if it helps you personally. Be careful, however, since some believe that it might react with some of the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID) used to treat this condition. Ibuprofen is one, so check with your physician before trying it.

If you suffer from high blood pressure, borage oil used in conjunction with Omega-3 fish oils might lower it, though more research is needed. There is a belief that the GLA is not the active agent here since Omega-3 oils are known to help to reduce hypertension, though the effect of prostaglandins on the factors that can reduce blood pressure is inarguable.

Edited by freedom

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That is cool that you stopped your scarring through balancing your 3 & 6 oils in the diet, I can see how you could possibly have this imbalance especially from insulin resistant. I have been insulin resistant too in the past and interestingly enough read that many are DEFICIENT in omega 3 and that is why they are insulin resistant. Anyways, it sound like an imbalance in the diet and probably not offically AMVC as that is genetic.

Also if Evening Primrose Oil is not working for you and causing more problems at first it is probably because it causes a rise in estrogen. You have to be careful if you're susceptible to fibroids. A better option could be black currant seed oil, you get the GLA there too.

Edited by tricia

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these quotes are from Udo Erasmus' web site

"Flax oil (3.5 times richer in omega 3 than omega 6) can lead to omega 6 deficiency, because omega 3s and 6s compete for enzyme space in our cells. On unrefined flax oil made with health in mind (the first oil I developed in North America) I experienced dry eyes, skipped heart beats, joint pains, and fragile, thin skin. Others have suffered similar problems. The Inuit's 2.5:1 balance is the omega 3-richest traditional diet-nature's measure of the upper limit of safe omega 3 richness."

..........................

"Flax is very rich in n-3 and low in n-6 (n-3: n-6 ratio is usually between 3.5: 1 and 4: 1)."

....................

"Exclusive use of flax oil can lead to n-6 deficiency within 2-8 months. Using CLA (conjugated linoleic acid, a trans- fatty acid which is produced by shifting a double bond and twisting the molecule of the n-6 EFA, LA) in addition to flax oil can lead to n-6 deficiency symptoms even sooner than flax oil used alone."

..................

"N-6 deficiency symptoms from too much flax oil can be reversed either by lowering n-3 intake or by increasing n-6 intake."

...................

"The list of symptoms of n-6 deficiency garnered from research is long, and is found in an overview article on this web site called Fats that Heal Fats that Kill. I have experienced myself and have seen in other people using flax oil exclusively the following symptoms: dry eyes, skipped heart beats, thin skin, joint pain, eczema and psoriasis-like skin problems, increased susceptibility to infection, and deterioration of immune function."

.........................

"N-3: N-6 Ratio: Both n-3 and n-6 are essential to health and must come from the diet because the body cannot make them. However, too much n-3 can crowd out the n-6 (as can happen with flax and flax oil used exclusively as the source of EFAs in the diet), and lead to n-6 deficiency. Too much n-6 can crowd out n-3 (as is the case in 'normal' Western diets), and lead to n-3 deficiency."

................................

'The ratio of n-3 to n-6 is important and must be carefully considered. I have seen the best results for health using an n-3: n-6 ratio of 2: 1. "

..............................

"The obvious signs of EFA deficiency include dry skin, poor hair and nail quality, low energy, low stamina, low mood, difficulty building muscles, slow recovery, poor wound healing, lack of motor coordination (clumsiness), lack of calmness, learning problems, dry eyes, skipped heartbeats, arthritis-like pains in joints, thin, papery skin, tissue swelling with pain, water retention, overweight (from eating more carbohydrates than we burn; My quip is "Carbs: Burn ‘em, or wear ‘em") and cravings for carbohydrates. Every cell, tissue, gland and organ requires essential fatty acids. So many people get too little, wrong ratio, damaged and toxic that it is hard to go wrong recommending them to everyone."

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Omega 6 deficiency causes the following symptoms:

Skin, hair, and nails become defective, leading to ...

eczema-like skin eruptions

dry skin and hair; hair loss

water loss through the skin (dehydration) with attendant thirst

impaired nail growth

Organs fall apart, resulting in ...

fatty infiltration of the liver; kidney malfunction; dry eyes

The brain falls apart, bringing about many changes, including ...

poor vision; decreased learning ability; lower intelligence

mood changes; depression; poor handling of stressful situations

problem behavior; attention deficit; hyperactivity; dyslexia

motor incoordination; and poor physical performance

Glands dry up, failing to make their vital hormones and secretions

The immune system falls apart, producing ...

increased susceptibility to infections; impaired healing of wounds

The reproductive system falls apart, and we get ...

male sterility; and female miscarriage

Our joints fall apart, manifesting as ...

arthritis-like conditions

The cardiovascular system falls apart, resulting in ...

heart beat abnormalities that can lead to cardiac arrest

sometimes, increased cholesterol

Digestion falls apart, leading to ...

poor digestion of foods; inflammation; leaky gut; food sensitivities, allergies

Growth becomes retarded.

Edited by freedom

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That is cool that you stopped your scarring through balancing your 3 & 6 oils in the diet, I can see how you could possibly have this imbalance especially from insulin resistant. I have been insulin resistant too in the past and interestingly enough read that many are DEFICIENT in omega 3 and that is why they are insulin resistant. Anyways, it sound like an imbalance in the diet and probably not offically AMVC as that is genetic.

Also if Evening Primrose Oil is not working for you and causing more problems at first it is probably because it causes a rise in estrogen. You have to be careful if you're susceptible to fibroids. A better option could be black currant seed oil, you get the GLA there too.

Often there are deficiencies in both GLA and 03, but if the ratio is higher in 03 there will be more insulin resistance and this in turn causes more deficiency in GLA.

Have read personal stories from diabetics able to reverse nerve damage with GLA supplementation.

Edited by freedom

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sorry to keep adding,,,

if you start supplementing with GLA/06 you need to make sure your diet is not high in refined carbs or saturated fats/dairy. This can cause the 06s to become inflammatory.

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Freedom,

do you subscribe the theory of Lamar that high doses of vitamin A in supplements causes scarring or weakened/thin skin as well as the 3 and 6 imbalance or improper GLA?

Also I don't see how anti-inflammatory foods or supplement in themselves are bad, I take black currant seed oil now, which is great for acne and gives GLA, yet it is promoted an anti-inflammatory I believe. I have seen benefits. It is good for repairing tissue damage. I still think overall reducing inflammation in the body is good, along with proper GLA.

Edited by tricia

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What amount of omega 6 would you recommend Freedom?


I am blessed to be the way I am, for God doesn't look at any appearance but rather look unto thy heart.


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