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Zag Enzyme, Lectins, Digestive Tract And Clogged Pores

digestion gut permeability lectins soaking garlic zinc gluten vegetarian

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#21 alternativista

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE (tigermike @ Sep 21 2009, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@databased: please use all the data if you're gonna use data to argue.


You too. You only included processed foods in your argument against grains. Where's the oatmeal, barley, rice? And especially the lentils, quinoa, nuts, seeds, garbanzos, the lima beans that according to one of the sources isn't that much of a problem lectin wise? All nutrient dense foods.


#22 tigermike

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 09:12 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Sep 21 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (tigermike @ Sep 21 2009, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@databased: please use all the data if you're gonna use data to argue.


You too. You only included processed foods in your argument against grains. Where's the oatmeal, barley, rice? And especially the lentils, quinoa, nuts, seeds, garbanzos, the lima beans that according to one of the sources isn't that much of a problem lectin wise? All nutrient dense foods.


i was using the data from his supplied link.


#23 tigermike

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 09:30 PM

QUOTE (databased @ Sep 21 2009, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (tigermike @ Sep 20 2009, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LOL...i love how you picked out the dried fruit for your argument. Yeah, dried fruit is gonna have high GL. and bananas are one of the higher GI fruits. good job for figuring that out.
Why don't you do a more thorough comparison?

Because people don't eat laundry lists of foods. The point was precisely that people eat specific foods, not "grains". Thus, if you look at people on this forum who claim they are eating "healthy" and still have acne, they often have chosen a high-fructose, high glycemic load diet (which they inexplicably decide to make produce even higher insulin responses by running through a blender).

You can stare at the list of low-glycemic load fruits all you want, but if you in fact eat apples, bananas, pears, and mangoes, you're just going for maximum sugar and fooling yourself into thinking it's healthy.

QUOTE
Also note that the above listings for the grain products don't take into account people rarely eat just the serving size amount...

Which is... an identical issue for fruit -- especially when people get out the blender to amplify both portions and glycemic load. There are folks doing "apple fasts" and imagining it is healthy to eat such massive amounts of sugar because apples are "natural". We are highly trained sugar seekers (some believe that was the evolutionary advantage of the retinal cones that let us distinguish colors). Put that laundry list of fruits out on a table and people will instinctively eat the high glycemic load selections first -- and then claim it was "healthy".


i have no idea where you are going with this reply.
first...blending fruit doesn't change the glycemic load much. that's because the fiber is still there.
Juicing would dramatically change the glycemic load. Blending retains fiber.
Yes there are low-glycemic fruits and high glycemic fruits just like there are low and high glycemic grains. I was only using the averages of the "laundry list" to show how the two stack up with your supplied data since you tried to skew it the first time by showing us "dried fruit" and "coke".
Yes, too much sugar from any source is bad. I don't see too many fruitarians on the boards tho.
And about serving size....people do eat more than just the serving size amount...for just about everything (it's the american way right!?).
But with all the fiber and nutrients and calories from fruit...you would get full faster pigging out on fruit than you would pigging out on grains. Meaning pigging out on grains would be more detrimental to bloodsugar levels because you can consume alot more grains than you could say....apples,oranges?

I could eat a crap-load of rice but only a few apples.
anyway. i think we can all agree that it's watching your overall intake of carbs and selecting healthier choices (fresh fruit not dried....whole grains not refined) that is the important thing.
here is a cool link to check out.

#24 alternativista

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 12:29 PM

Could you argue about Glycemic impact elsewhere. This thread is about the ZAG enzyme and lectins.

QUOTE
Because people don't eat laundry lists of foods. The point was precisely that people eat specific foods, not "grains".


Actually, people on this forum do eat grains, not just processed products.

#25 tigermike

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:35 PM

sorry for getting off topic.

i'm not endorsing this product b/c i don't fully believe in the "4 your type" gospel, but i thought this was interesting and worth a share...

some kind of lectin damage supplement brought to us by the "eat right 4 your type" people.

i'm not totally familiar with all the ingredients but it looks like alot of fiber supplementation.
that makes sense. Fiber helps flush out the things that are creating the negative responses.



#26 Drizzler

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:11 PM

.

Edited by Drizzler, 23 September 2009 - 10:11 AM.


#27 alternativista

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:12 PM

QUOTE (tigermike @ Sep 22 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i'm not totally familiar with all the ingredients but it looks like alot of fiber supplementation.


And NAC and Glucosamine. In some of the text I posted above in post #4, glucosamine is mentioned specifically for the lectins in wheat. And I think I saw NAC mentioned in my reading. Also, enzymes that break down proteins.

When I run out of MSM which I don't quite take daily, I'm going to buy these capsules from Cosco with MSM and glucosamine. But I have a giant bottle of MSM.

Edited by alternativista, 31 December 2009 - 11:06 AM.


#28 alternativista

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 08:33 AM

So now the thing to do is to look into what to do about lectins:

Soaking and sprouting for seeds.
Which protease enzymes?
Lectins in other foods that aren't seeds.
Supplement or consume plenty of raw foods for the enzymes.

Plants usually contain the enzymes needed to break them down and release nutrients and these enzymes are released when conditions are right. With seeds, those conditions are warmth and moisture as in springtime.

In many other foods, enzymes are released when the cells are crushed as in chopping or chewing. But enzymes are destroyed by heat. Which is why the whfoods.org people are always recommending you chop foods small, then let sit for at least 5mins, but longer if possible, before cooking to allow enzyme action to work before they are destroyed. I don't know yet if these are the enzymes that break down lectins, though.

Also, perhaps sourdough breads, pancakes, etc as many say (like westonprice.org) that celiac sufferers (people severly intolerant of gluten) can often eat sourdough bread. Real sourdough, though, not rapid rise yeast bread with sourdough flavoring. Or some bread or pancake method that involves the flour/grains sitting overnight in water and/or something acidic.

Edited by alternativista, 05 November 2009 - 04:28 PM.


#29 Drizzler

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:09 AM

Here is a list of lectin content of a huge variety of foods:

http://www.owenfound...s_in_Foods.html

So... agglutination = thick blood = acne?

Edited by Drizzler, 23 September 2009 - 10:10 AM.


#30 alternativista

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:13 PM

QUOTE (Drizzler @ Sep 23 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here is a list of lectin content of a huge variety of foods:

http://www.owenfound...s_in_Foods.html

So... agglutination = thick blood = acne?


Not that I know of. Lectins affect hyperkeratinization by inhibiting the ZAG enzyme. Which is the topic of this thread.

Edited by alternativista, 23 September 2009 - 03:27 PM.


#31 venam

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 07:02 PM

Remember that apart from that is the insulin spikes that trigger IGF-1, even if it does not have the lectins.

#32 alternativista

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (venam @ Sep 23 2009, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Remember that apart from that is the insulin spikes that trigger IGF-1, even if it does not have the lectins.


Yes, we all know that, but glycemic impact is not the topic of discussion here.

Besides, the topic is also not grains. I don't know what the fixation on that is. The concern is with is ALL seeds, especially legumes, nuts and seeds, which nearly all have a low GI.

And some other foods besides those as one of the articles names nightshades as a culprit. And foods from grain fed animals, dairy especially.

Edited by alternativista, 20 January 2010 - 02:44 PM.


#33 alternativista

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 04:14 PM

Blog article by a doctor. Names wheat and soy as having the most damaging lectins:

http://wholehealthso...ns-part-ii.html

#34 tigermike

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 01:07 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Sep 27 2009, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Blog article by a doctor. Names wheat and soy as having the most damaging lectins:

http://wholehealthso...ns-part-ii.html


Coincidentally, Soy and Wheat are two of the biggest crops in the US.
I'm almost positive that they are a subsidized crop as well. Which is why they're grown by so many farmers.
That's why we see so much Soy and Wheat "product" in these packaged frakenfoods on the supermarket shelves.
The only crop bigger? Corn! And we know that's in everything too. HFCS anybody?

So the two things with the most damaging lectins are running rampant through our food system. No wonder people are unhealthy. Sucks.

Why can't we subsidize fruits and veggies and pastured beef?

#35 alternativista

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE (tigermike @ Sep 30 2009, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why can't we subsidize fruits and veggies and pastured beef?


Yes. And apparently in France, they subsidize quality as opposed to quantity like here. I don't know any more about that. It's just something the 'French Women Don't Get Fat' author said.

#36 venam

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 05:21 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Sep 9 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nightshades are listed in with the various seed sources without saying what you can do about them. You don't usually soak or sprout nightshades.

What you can do about nightshades is cooking them. Cooking nightshades reduces the amount of lectins in them. Although they are not truely paleo (they come from the Americas where most of our evolutionary history did not take place in), I eat tomatoes often. Love them too much to give away.

#37 alternativista

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE (venam @ Sep 30 2009, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Sep 9 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nightshades are listed in with the various seed sources without saying what you can do about them. You don't usually soak or sprout nightshades.

What you can do about nightshades is cooking them. Cooking nightshades reduces the amount of lectins in them. Although they are not truely paleo (they come from the Americas where most of our evolutionary history did not take place in), I eat tomatoes often. Love them too much to give away.


Yeah cooking reduces some. Also, crushing cells gets enzymes working. Which is why the whfoods.org guy is always saying to chop things and let them sit for at least 5 minutes, but longer is better, to let the enzymes work before you kill them in cooking. Although I have no idea if these are the enzyme that break down lectins. The whfoods.org guy recommends this for the nutrients.

And the trouble with this for me is that I hate cooked peppers, and only recently discovered how delicious raw red peppers are. My favorite snack is red pepper 'chips' dipped in hummus. But since they should be organic and are expensive enough conventionally grown much less organic I don't have them much. I tried to grow some but this summer was just too hot. I'm trying again now for the fall.


#38 Packerfan785

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 09:43 PM

Do potatoes and rice contain lectins?

Also, aren't most beans soaked enough and cooked so that they do not have active lectins?

#39 venam

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Nov 11 2009, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do potatoes and rice contain lectins?

Also, aren't most beans soaked enough and cooked so that they do not have active lectins?

Rice yes, for sure. BUT, there are fewer lectins in rice compared to, say, wheat. It is also gluten free. One interesting thing, the hunter-gatherers that adopted agriculture thousands of years ago all declined in health, except those that were already unhealthy (lived in marginal places, couldn't get enough food) OR those that adopted rice as their main crop. Read more about it:

QUOTE
There are some apparent exceptions to the trend of declining health with the adoption of intensive agriculture. In my observation, they fall into two general categories. In the first, health improves upon the transition to agriculture because the hunter-gatherer population was unhealthy to begin with. This is due to living in a marginal environment or eating a diet with a high proportion of wild plant seeds. In the second category, the culture adopted rice. Rice is associated with less of a decline in health, and in some cases an increase in overall health, than other grains such as wheat and corn. In chapter 21 of the book Ancient Health: Bioarchaeological Interpretations of the Human Past, Drs. Michelle T Douglas and Michael Pietrusewsky state that "rice appears to be less cariogenic [cavity-promoting] than other grains such as maize [corn].

http://wholehealthso...origins-of.html

About potatoes, white potato is a nightshade (yep) so it is loaded with lectins. I remember reading something else about white potatoe that it has another compound which is really bad, can't remember so just dismiss that.

Other tubers (sweet potatoes, taro, yams) are not nightshades. BUT, lectins are in most plant foods, just in different amounts. I would not think that these other tubers have too many lectins. Compare white potatoes to sweet potatoes in this site.

As for beans, most bean dishes you buy are not soaked at all. Soaking will only happen if you cook them yourself and soak them. Soaking and cooking take away enough lectins to make it edible, but they still have plenty afterward.

Sprouting is better than soaking, but you cannot use them interchangeably. WHF has instructions on soaking, you should soak your rice as well btw.

Hope that helps.

#40 tigermike

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 12:52 AM

QUOTE (venam @ Nov 11 2009, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
About potatoes, white potato is a nightshade (yep) so it is loaded with lectins. I remember reading something else about white potatoe that it has another compound which is really bad, can't remember so just dismiss that.


When potatoes are fried (french fries, chips) there is something called acrylamide which is cancer-causing. And of course there's always that sneaky trans fat.

Is that what you were thinking of?




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