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Super-oxide Anions Trigger P. Acnes to Inflammation

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#1 databased

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 10:50 PM

Production of Superoxide Anions by Keratinocytes Initiates P. acnes-Induced Inflammation of the Skin

Since most (all?) normal people without acne have P. acnes on their skin, the question is always: where exactly in the chain of events leading to lesions is the difference between having and not having acne. This test tube study implies you need the superoxide anion production combined with P. acnes to get the inflammation and acne lesions.

This makes me happy because my current model of acne is that it is caused by a failure to produce enough zinc superoxide dismutase (ZSOD). This study is consistent with that model, since ZSOD (as the name implies) can dispatch the superoxide anions and prevent this possibly crucial step in the formation of inflammation and lesions.

#2 {DC}

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 11:58 PM

Stopping inflammation is great. But this still wouldnt stop comedones forming would it?

Would taking a supplement like GliSODin with Zinc help. Its a bioavailable SOD.

#3 databased

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:00 AM

Probably the large nocturnal melatonin surge designed to stimulate cells to
produce SOD naturally also prevents comedones by dampening the skin-local
production of androgens.

QUOTE ({DC} @ Aug 13 2009, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would taking a supplement like GliSODin with Zinc help. Its a bioavailable SOD.


I would predict either no effect (it's a looooong path from the stomach to
surface skin) or a decrease in inflammation without actually preventing
the acne. I will buy a bottle and test it on myself -- thanks for the pointer!

Evolution (not having encountered artificial light long enough) intended us to
sleep long in darkness and live in bright light, both necessary to have the large
and long nocturnal melatonin surge and effective zinc absorption that prevents
acne even in people with genetic predispositions for it.

IMHO biggrin.gif

#4 {DC}

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 04:11 AM

Thanks data.

Hope to hear your feedback on the GliSODin. I may try some too.

I know your off the zinc now, but I based on your concepts I will be trying the following:

Vitamin D3 15,000IU(I hardly see good sunlight and haven't for years)
Zinc Picolinate 50mg
GliSODin 100-200mg
Melatonin 1mg(around bed time, hopefully that is before midnight)

Was thinking of adding Vitamin A(retinol) but from what I have read from you and the Vitamin D Council it seems that supplementing with Vitamin A can reduce Vit D absorbtion/bioavailibility.
Maybe if Vitamin A was taken at a differnent time of the day?

I have always been up late and been a night owl, but never even experienced as much as a pimple until I was 19. Maybe my genes were set for me to develop acne then?? Or at least be vulnerable to it.

I still feel as though from all that I have read and know that acne is a genetic, androgen mediated disease.

#5 databased

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:50 PM

QUOTE ({DC} @ Aug 15 2009, 05:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hope to hear your feedback on the GliSODin. I may try some too.

Hasn't killed me yet! It's very hard to isolate the effects of just one thing. Probably the only certainty that is easily available is that if you take X every day and get an acne outbreak, then you know X can't prevent acne in all situations. I suspect the GliSODin should help if it could deliver sufficient SOD to the skin at night, just as I suspect that huge doses of B vitamins may help by slightly increasing the production of cell anti-oxidants.

QUOTE
Vitamin D3 15,000IU(I hardly see good sunlight and haven't for years)

Yikes. I know of no researcher who recommends anyone take more than 10,000IU per day.

QUOTE
Zinc Picolinate 50mg
GliSODin 100-200mg
Melatonin 1mg(around bed time, hopefully that is before midnight)

Unlikely to kill anybody. Because in the test tube selenium appears able to help move zinc from one molecule to another, I would label 200mcg of selenium as a safe (assuming you don't eat Brazil nuts all day) and plausible aid. Also, B6 is implicated in multiple pathways relevant to acne, so a B complex pill is hard to justify leaving out if you're tossing down pills anyway. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Was thinking of adding Vitamin A(retinol)

It's just so easy to get beta-carotene in your diet (and I'm no vegetarian) and then let your body make however much Vitamin A it wants. Heck, even the handmade salsa sauce at my local burrito joint is full of carotenoids.

QUOTE
I have always been up late and been a night owl, but never even experienced as much as a pimple until I was 19. Maybe my genes were set for me to develop acne then?? Or at least be vulnerable to it.

I think there is no plausible theory of acne out there that doesn't say it's gonna be real hard to say exactly what's going on in any one patient history. For example, my hypothesis says that diet mainly matters because your gut becomes vulnerable to carb malabsorption after living in dim light conditions. But of course, it's not inconsistent to then say that when/what/where/who of acne is affected by exactly what bacteria is living/flourishing in your gut. It could be it took until 19 for a particular colony in your gut to get the upper hand.

QUOTE
I still feel as though from all that I have read and know that acne is a genetic, androgen mediated disease.

I would agree, but claim that that explains little. biggrin.gif The functioning of our genes is vastly influenced by everything we do (spawning the entire field of epigenetics), and I can play 6 Degrees of Androgens (connecting anything in the world to them in just a few short steps) as easy as others play 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

#6 John Alex Worhopper

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 12:16 AM

Check this out: http://www.molmed.or...rkmaz.00117.pdf

#7 Addie

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 04:34 AM

Ooo, I'm using a product or two with superoxide dismutase in them. More reason to keep on using 'em.

Edited by Addie, 26 September 2009 - 04:34 AM.


#8 databased

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 11:51 AM

QUOTE (Addie @ Sep 26 2009, 04:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ooo, I'm using a product or two with superoxide dismutase in them. More reason to keep on using 'em.

I went through a bottle of GliSODin, two a day, and found no particular effect. The #1 swamping factor for my acne continues to be day-long outdoor light exposure to the eyes. That lets me stay acne-free with no pills at all, and I can eat about anything I want. It makes me continue to believe that you can't really get sufficient superoxide dismutase from a pill to do much good -- you need that nocturnal surge of melatonin flooding through the circulation, stimulating individual cells to make their own SOD.

#9 Addie

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 02:32 PM

(I'm referring to topical SOD, btw.)

#10 databased

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 05:45 PM

Ah, haven't tried topical, though I'm puzzled by how it would ever manage to pick up a zinc atom. Or maybe it is actually ZSOD labelled as SOD.

#11 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 03:32 PM

just wanted to add something to this-

potassium may help with an increase in melotonin surge you are aiming for, as its rarely in multivitamins, you will obtain it from food alone if you eat the right foods on a regular basis.

also calcium and magnesium have been shown to play a major role in the bodies ability to enter rem sleep, there is something abou tthese major minerals that is important i guess.

i also read somewhere that potassium has antioxidant properties indirectly, whatever that means, and specifically reduces the bodies production of superoxide anions, perhaps somehow this knowledge applies to what is known about acne.

examine your diet history for how much potassium you may have consumed in the past, grains dont have much only fruits and veggies and dairy.



High Potassium Treatment Resets the Circadian Oscillator in Xenopus Retinal Photoreceptors
Minoru Hasegawa
Department of Biology and Biochemistry, University of Houston, Houston, TX, hasegawa@uh.edu

Gregory M. Cahill

Department of Biology and Biochemistry, University of Houston, Houston, TX

In vertebrate retina, light hyperpolarizes the photoreceptor membrane, and this is an essential cellular signal for vision. Cellular signals responsible for photic entrainment of some circadian oscillators appear to be distinct from those for vision, but it is not known whether changes in photoreceptor membrane potential play roles in photic entrainment of the photoreceptor circadian oscillator. The authors show that a depolarizing exposure to high potassium resets the circadian oscillator in cultured Xenopus retinal photoreceptor layers. A 4-h pulse of high [K+] (34 mM higher than in normal culture medium) caused phase shifts of the melatonin rhythm. This treatment caused phase delays during the early subjective day and phase advances during the late subjective day. In addition to the phase-shifting effect, high potassium pulses stimulated melatonin release acutely at all times. High [K+] therefore mimicked dark in its effects on oscillator phase and melatonin synthesis. These results suggest that membrane potential may play a role in photic entrainment of the photoreceptor circadian oscillator and in regulation of melatonin release.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 09 November 2009 - 03:38 PM.


#12 databased

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 10:46 PM

Thanks for the pointer; I'll definite have to get that article from the University, as the abstract seems to be saying two contradictory things. It's not clear I can significantly increase potassium in the retina by taking a supplement, but it's easy enough (only time-consuming) to test whether or not potassium can affect my acne or not.


#13 databased

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 02:46 AM

The mechanism described in the study cited requires interacting with the CD36 receptor on the keratinocyte. Since it appears that retinoic acid can upregulate CD36, this increases my skepticism that taking Vitamin A is a good idea for acne. If you dig into the figures, they show the ability of various anti-acne treatments to keep cells viable when exposed to P. acnes. In every case except retinoic acid -- in that case, the higher dose of retinoic acid was not just worse than the lower dose (in contrast to every other agent), it was also worse than using no anti-acne agent at all.

Weirdly, the text does not comment on this striking anomaly. In fact, the text does not seem to describe the table accurately at all (since it claims ZnSO4 did not reduce apoptosis, whereas that's not what the table shows). Don't know what's going on here, but Table S2 sure seems to be saying that more retinoic acid can make acne worse than getting no retinoic acid at all!

#14 Packerfan785

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE (databased @ Nov 18 2009, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The mechanism described in the study cited requires interacting with the CD36 receptor on the keratinocyte. Since it appears that retinoic acid can upregulate CD36, this increases my skepticism that taking Vitamin A is a good idea for acne. If you dig into the figures, they show the ability of various anti-acne treatments to keep cells viable when exposed to P. acnes. In every case except retinoic acid -- in that case, the higher dose of retinoic acid was not just worse than the lower dose (in contrast to every other agent), it was also worse than using no anti-acne agent at all.

Weirdly, the text does not comment on this striking anomaly. In fact, the text does not seem to describe the table accurately at all (since it claims ZnSO4 did not reduce apoptosis, whereas that's not what the table shows). Don't know what's going on here, but Table S2 sure seems to be saying that more retinoic acid can make acne worse than getting no retinoic acid at all!


So wait, are you saying usage of Retin-A may be worse than doing nothing for your skin?

#15 databased

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 09:46 AM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Nov 19 2009, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So wait, are you saying usage of Retin-A may be worse than doing nothing for your skin?

If the results of that table are right, then the more Retin-A you dump on your skin, the more skin cells in contact with P. acnes will die. Whether that translates into worse acne or not, is leap of faith. Sure seems like it could, but it's hard to rule out other possible effects (e.g., maybe a first layer is killed off faster, leaving a barrier, or who the heck knows what). That is consistent with the idea that Retin-A can make the skin "thinner". And, Retin-A should logically help with the superoxide anions, so there should be some positive effect on symptoms, though possibly at the expense of killing off more skin cells.

But basically, it just seems to me that the retinoids are the wrong route to fix the problem. If superoxide anions are the nail, the surely the enzyme named for its ability to take them out is the hammer: superoxide dismutase.

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#16 Packerfan785

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 06:15 PM

I'm using retin-A to fill in a few small scars and help fade my red marks, I never expected it to be some kind of miracle.

#17 databased

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:48 PM

Oxidative stress in acne vulgaris.

Studies have tended to find lowered superoxide dismutase levels in acne patients, but not always. This latest study finds SOD levels significantly lowered in 32 acne patients versus 34 controls.

Since there is always a minority of patients who get a near cure just by taking zinc, I would predict that there will always be some acne patients whose SOD levels are close to that of controls. Further, since an impaired melatonin cycle is epidemic in modern life (melatonin being a prime stimulator of SOD production in the skin), I would predict that the "controls" actually have lower SOD levels than what is optimal for health.

I would really like to see two simple studies. First, one that looks at all the people who have far above average SOD levels to see if they are virtually all 100% acne-free. Second, a study of the SOD levels in the acne-free Trobriand Islanders -- I would predict they would have significantly higher SOD levels than the "controls" used in this study.

#18 river333

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 07:27 PM

Databased - I've read through many of your threads, and having just discovered Rooibos tea, I thought you may want to know about it. It's a pretty powerful tea with tons of antioxidants and minerals including superoxide dismutase. I just started it yesterday (3 cups a day and spray it on daily as a toner since it contains AHA and zinc) and have already noticed a stark difference. Though obviously it's too soon to say how much it will "cure" my acne, it is known for clearing skin quite well, and the rooibos tea thread on acne.org shows that it appears to have a very high success rate (i normally take rave reviews in threads with a grain of salt, but the number and intensity of these raves coupled with my results thus far makes me think twice)

What made me think of you is that - I wonder if its success has to do with the fact that it has lots of SOD, zinc, copper, and manganese (all of which contribute to making the two types of SOD our cells use). I know you tried the SOD supplement and it didn't do much, but do you think having it in tea form makes it somehow more bioavailable, getting the blood to transport the SOD and minerals up to the face? I'm sure the fact that it contains a lot of other nutrients, calms nerves, and helps people sleep really well also contribute to possibly helping acne. Anyway, I just wanted to share this with you to see how it fits in with your theory. Also, the minute people stop drinking 3 cups a day, their acne seems to come back full force... so obviously this is no cure.

Hope to hear from you.

#19 Oner

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:21 AM

Zinc ascorbate has superoxide dismutase-like activity and in vitro antimicrobial activity against Staphylococcus aureus and Escherichia coli.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23055762



#20 mikito

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:43 AM

So, do you think that zinc ascorbate will be the cure? Oral form or in topical form? Actually I am taking zinc gluconate 16 mg, but probably it's very little doses.do you think it would be better if I take zinc ascorbate instead?