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Fiber, Androgens and acne.


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#1 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 07:12 PM

Ill make this quick because im a busy guy these days, but i have been learning about the digestive system as of lately and about enterohepatic circulation, and liver waste products that are secreted in bile constituents.

So anyways, when you eat a meal, your gallbladder releases bile that come from the liver to digest mainly fats. within this bile is waste products that the liver has filtered out from a prior meal, these waste products supposedly contain hormones. dietary fiber especially lignans found in wheat, have been shown to adsorb the excess androgens and estrogens and prevent the likelyhood of their reabsorbtion in the ileum or the very last part of the small intestine where bile fluids are reabsorbed to preserve them for recirculation, so thats called enterohepatic circulation where your body trys to reabsorb bile, hepatic meaning related to the liver as it absorbs blood from the intestine to absorb nutrients and detoxify toxins.

What this suggests is that whole wheat is a great food, as well as any high fiber meal, as the very design of the human body seems to account for fiber content. I have some studies ill have to find again to post some extra proof for this, but really the implications of these mechanics have a wide effect on the entire human body as all angrogen related disorders and cancers or tumors are somewhat invloved in this.

Anyways this is fascinating to me, and would be the most reasonable global cause for many many diseases, not just acne, your body just seems to have evolved with the expectation of fiber being there to help take away waste, pretty simple actually, regardless of the complex studies used to confirm a simple comcept.

in the meantime here is some support

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism , doi:10.1210/jc.2004-1530
This Article
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 90, No. 6 3550-3559
Copyright © 2005 by The Endocrine Society

Low-Fat High-Fiber Diet Decreased Serum and Urine Androgens in Men
To validate our hypothesis that reduction in dietary fat may result in changes in androgen metabolism, 39 middle-aged, white, healthy men (50–60 yr of age) were studied while they were consuming their usual high-fat, low-fiber diet and after 8 wk modulation to an isocaloric low-fat, high-fiber diet. Mean body weight decreased by 1 kg, whereas total caloric intake, energy expenditure, and activity index were not changed. After diet modulation, mean serum testosterone (T) concentration fell (P < 0.0001), accompanied by small but significant decreases in serum free T (P = 0.0045), 5-dihydrotestosterone (P = 0.0053), and adrenal androgens (androstendione, P = 0.0135; dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, P = 0.0011). Serum estradiol and SHBG showed smaller decreases. Parallel decreases in urinary excretion of some testicular and adrenal androgens were demonstrated. Metabolic clearance rates of T were not changed, and production rates for T showed a downward trend while on low-fat diet modulation. We conclude that reduction in dietary fat intake (and increase in fiber) results in 12% consistent lowering of circulating androgen levels without changing the clearance.


even though this study says that this diet achieves these drops in androgens, at least in the abstract, it doesnt mention the precise mechanisms as to how this is achieved, i do believe one mechanism to be adsorption by dietary fiber. This study was only done for 8 weeks, imagine a 3-6 month diet focusing specifically on lignans.


http://www.eblue.org...012613/fulltext

#2 Packerfan785

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 01:59 PM

I've probably asked this a lot but, lowering androgens is not the same as having a low amount of testosterone, right?

#3 waka waka

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 02:25 PM

Actually, evry part of the study that says T does refer to testosteone. If your worried about bobybuilding, processed junk carbs still arn't necessasarily better for muscle. I get a pretty good dose of fiber every day, and people who know me will tell you that I'm not a low testosterone dude.

#4 Packerfan785

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 05:39 PM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Jun 28 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've probably asked this a lot but, lowering androgens is not the same as having a low amount of testosterone, right?



#5 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Jun 29 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Jun 28 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've probably asked this a lot but, lowering androgens is not the same as having a low amount of testosterone, right?




sorry dude id love to take the sufficient time to answer your question as accuratly as it deserves to be answered, but im not brushed up on my knowledge in endocrinology, but my argument is a bit general, it has been suggested strongly by the sources ive been exposed to, that the liver excretes various (excess) hormones in the bile fluid upon the digestion of a meal as well as bilirubin, or dead red blood cells that give your feces that distinct brown color, and also it has been strongly suggested by much evidence that these hormones will bind to certain plant fibers and allow a more effective ridding of the bodys waste products so their is little chance for their reabsorption on their way back through the small intestine, so what this says is that your body expects to see fiber in every meal, also we may assume from the very structure that our bodys are expecting only plants in every meal, not dairy nor meat as their is no fiber.

I guess the machine is meant to run on plants, the digestive system is your combustion chamber!!!! good intake and exhaust makes for a strong efficient machine.

Think of plant fibers as changing your oil on a regular basis to avoid the buildup of sludge excess hormones, general waste products, god just has the system right.
For some reason i believe the details about what the liver excretes and their interactions with dietary fiber to be a huge implication for many diseases and maintaining general effeciency of the body.

Even beyond whether it will help acne at all, it is one of the first most general aspects of human health, are you effectively getting rid of toxic waste products on a daily basis??

#6 alternativista

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:18 PM

OOH! A new and interesting piece of the puzzle. Good work.

#7 waka waka

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:33 PM

Excessive fiber can lower testosterone, but even natural bodybuilders reccomend a healthy amount of fiber, and they don't have low testosterone. High fiber foods typically digest slower, which will lead to a slow steady release of insulin, as opposed to a fast surge. If your worried about low testosterone hurting your fitness goals, don't. Slow digesting carbs that contain a little fiber are usually considerd better, even when bulking up. Faster digesting carbs do seem to be better right after a workout though.

#8 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:34 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Jun 30 2009, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OOH! A new and interesting piece of the puzzle. Good work.


thank you for noticing, perhaps there is something to this as i have long ago abandoned the specifics of what causes acne, and thought more along the lines of, what is all human health and longevity dependant upon?, the very heart of the machine?? so to speak, so i figured id find some different answers along the holistic mindset of everything being connected in some way. Right in your gut.

As I would read about all the specifics and think about the idea of true cause, i would just want to know what everything is dependant upon, to think that our complicated bodies are simply all made up of basic elements, like how our bodys turn a certain number of proteins into perhaps thousands, all the substrates being vitamins and macro nutrients like fat, carbs and protein, but what of fiber?? thats just as part of the machinery as any vitamin as it is within every natural food product.

My intial impressions on fiber were that its something that older people worry about, well i am old now im 29, but i mean like older older people, but as i learn and read about more,and get a more accurate impression, fiber might be something "hella big deal" for health benefits, no less then any vitamin.

I wouldnt doubt that a day will come when even phytochemicals will become vitamins, as they are researched more.

#9 Packerfan785

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:47 PM

If anyone can answer my hormone question it would be appreciated. If acne prone people have more hormones shouldn't we all be prone to being more muscular?

#10 alternativista

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 06:28 PM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Jun 30 2009, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If anyone can answer my hormone question it would be appreciated. If acne prone people have more hormones shouldn't we all be prone to being more muscular?


Well, I'm no expert on muscle building, but our bodies vary on what they decide to do with hormones and nutrients. Some get more hair, for example. Haven't you noticed that a lot of skinny guys are hairy?

Also, I'm female. And I have unwanted hair, had very oily skin, acne, which started when I was 10, but a feminine curvy, pear-shaped body type. My sister has a more masculine body type, but little unwanted hair.

Also, it isn't just a matter of excess hormones. It's how sensitive receptors are. Also, some people have more enzymes that convert testosterone to DHT than others.

But if you are questioning the relationship between hormones and acne, that's been well established through many studies going back decades. There really isn't any doubt on that.

#11 alternativista

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE (AutonomousOne1980 @ Jun 30 2009, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Jun 30 2009, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OOH! A new and interesting piece of the puzzle. Good work.


My intial impressions on fiber were that its something that older people worry about, well i am old now im 29, but i mean like older older people, but as i learn and read about more,and get a more accurate impression, fiber might be something "hella big deal" for health benefits, no less then any vitamin.

I wouldnt doubt that a day will come when even phytochemicals will become vitamins, as they are researched more.


Yeah, a few years ago when I was researching acne and my ex-husband's diabetes, I came to the conclusion that fiber was what you needed for whatever ailed you. Like in gardening, whether you have clay soil or sandy soil, the solution is the same, compost which is plant matter. I know longer remember all the details to back that up.

Anyway, if nothing else, you've hit on just one more reason consuming plenty of veggies is essential. And one more way our bodies try to regulate hormones. If only we'd let it.

I have found something that related to insulin resistance and therefore the onset of acne at puberty. Apparently insulin resistance is a survival mechanism that helps us get by when food is scarce both by being very efficient and helping us store as much as possible. And a tendency for this can be triggered in infancy and even in the womb if a baby doesn't get enough food. This helps them survive, but is a problem later if food becomes plentiful and/or lifestyles become sedentary. This is why some people are more prone to diabetes and why the problem is exploding in developing countries as they get more food and move from the country to possibly more sedentary jobs in the city.

I don't know why insulin resistance occurs at puberty, but I recall from anthropology class that there's an awful lot of adolescents found in burials. Apparently this was a tough time way back when. As was infancy. Maybe so much energy is needed for development that IR is triggered for increased efficiency.

This is from a book called Diabesity. I picked it up at a charity resale shop expecting to leaf through it a bit and then donate it back. But it's really quite good and explains a lot really well. Both low birthweight and high birth weight are indicators of possible health problems later on. High birth weight is often caused by the mother consuming too much sugar.

I need to post this next time I see a birthweight, weight gain tendencies or metabolism poll here.

Edited by alternativista, 13 April 2010 - 05:55 PM.


#12 Packerfan785

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 07:32 PM

Skinny guy here with very little hair. The only manly feature about me is my deep voice and the little muscle I do have. Most people say I have a baby face, yet your going to tell me that my large amount of hormones is causing my acne?

#13 Packerfan785

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 07:41 PM

Another thing, Males with acne are noted to have high DHEA but I read that underweight people tend to have low DHEA. Everything that usually associates with acne is usually linked to being overweight and it seems that more people are underweight. That is what confuses me the most.

#14 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Jun 30 2009, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If anyone can answer my hormone question it would be appreciated. If acne prone people have more hormones shouldn't we all be prone to being more muscular?


ill take a stab at it, the problems with acne is that we have more free testosterone and dht, due to less shbg.

What i presume without doing much research into it as i have limited time for this stuff at the moment, is that the free stuff which is unbound is what does the damage, this stuff cannot be utlized correctly by the body to even make more muscle so perhaps that is somewhere in the ballpark for an answer.

to even speculate further maybe that gives more likelihood to the theory that some excess is being reabsorbed into the intestine, the liver can only do so much an it is released somehow into the blood stream, thats a super wild guess though of course.

#15 alternativista

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (Packerfan785 @ Jun 30 2009, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Skinny guy here with very little hair. The only manly feature about me is my deep voice and the little muscle I do have. Most people say I have a baby face, yet your going to tell me that my large amount of hormones is causing my acne?


Yes, maybe. Like I said, our bodies chose to do different things with the resources it has. As in my examples.

And maybe not. Like I said, it's not necessarily an excess of hormones. There's also the sensitivity of receptors and amount of enzymes that convert testosterone to DHT. And it's the amount of SHBG available to bind them.

Fortunately, blood sugar stabilizing habits increase SHBG levels while at the same time, not stimulating excess hormone production. However, the androgen hormones cause the oily skin. It's IGF1 that mostly responsible for hyperkeratinization which is what leads to clogged pores. Also improved by stable blood sugar.

Edited by alternativista, 30 August 2011 - 07:17 PM.


#16 alternativista

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE (AutonomousOne1980 @ Jun 27 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Low-Fat High-Fiber Diet Decreased Serum and Urine Androgens in Men


The study I've seen on PCOS symptoms also involved a low fat and low GI by increasing whole grains, legumes, etc. Unfortunately the link I had is broken and I can't find another.


#17 alternativista

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 05:57 PM

Bumping this thread which contains an interesting piece of the puzzle that got little attention.

#18 tree23

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 06:50 PM

Very interesting stuff! Thanks for bumping this old thread. I would have never found it.

I really don't think I am lacking in fiber, but this will motivate me to continue eating healthy.

I do disagree with this statement though: "also we may assume from the very structure that our bodys are expecting only plants in every meal, not dairy nor meat as there is no fiber."
I think when we look at our digestive system as a whole and not just the livers role, we are more similar to omnivores(plants+meat).

#19 InquisitiveCreature

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 06:58 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Apr 13 2010, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bumping this thread which contains an interesting piece of the puzzle that got little attention.


Thank you for bumping this alternativista!!!

This makes me happy :D Fiber fiber fiber! I'll learn so much more going down this path, and hopefully watch my skin and digestive system improve :) I really think major lack of fiber has been what's got me where I am.

#20 Drizzler

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 07:06 PM

What I find very interesting is polycystic ovary syndrome, diabetes, and hypothyroidism (all conditions we have more or less associated with acne) all coincide with decreased SHBG. I don't know which way the cause<-->effect go for those though. Increased insulin and IGF-1 also decrease SHBG. Take any of those factors and combine it with predisposition for hyperkeratinization etc and you've got... acne?

A lot of this is beyond my current level of understanding really.