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#21 FrankPlk

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE (suzushii @ Mar 10 2009, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I understand your desire to make acne more socially acceptable, but you're going at it the wrong (and false) way. This post-modernist rewriting of what some things are (big is beautiful, no it's not, obesity is a disease) is doing more harm then good.


Acne is universally considered non attractive in all cultures. While some part of attractibility can be influenced by culture (from rubenesque, to skinny minnie, from pale to tanned, etc) some are universal (T&A for women, wide hips and firm breasts and delineated waist, clear skin).

Acne represents lesions in the skin, inflammation, random patterned scars, and the collection of pus under a plug of sebum. Saying skin is bad because it has acne isn't some culturally brainwashed fact. It's simply biology. While in the 18th century having a tan meant you were a lowly brute, and now it means you're hot, in all centuries acne was considered a flaw.

Now, do people still recognise beauty in others despite acne? Of course! It may be harder, or easier, on a non-issue, or even a deal breaker for some, but it's another marker that can up or lower your general attractivity level. Thankfully you can raise it by stuff you can control, and that you're responsible for - like how funny, smart, educated, and pleasant you are.


Wow. This is probably the first time I am "accused" of being post-modern. I don't quite know whether I should feel honoured or dishonoured/
More seriously, suzushii, allow me to humbly disagree. I like your argumentation. It is solid and respectful (and obviously you are quite a cultivated person). But, still, you don't convince me.
First, I should reiterate my point: I personally find acne attractive, at times. This is not the consequence of my (post modern?) reasoning, but the what triggers it.
I do agree with you that there are certain points which are more universal when it comes attraction. I could even agree that maybe some aspects are fully universal. But I don't agree with you list. Acne is not one of them, and underlining it in your list will not make it more of it.

Yes, of course, acne is a lesion of the skin, and all other things in you description. All these name from biology which you use sound uggly -like most scientific terms. You would make Nefertiti look uggly if you described her face with these terms. As to the notion that, ni all centuries, acne has been considered as a flaw, I fail to see what facts you bring in support to it.

Don't take me bad: I don't mean to be mean with you. Once again, I fully respect your reasonning, and I appreciate that you took time to reply to me. And it's good to be able to argue with an intelligent person. I also see where you come from: I am sure you suffer from acne, and you can be resenting my personal opinion on it as some sort of denial of your sincere opinions about it. I fully respect this. But that will not change the fact that I find acne to be sometimes attractive.

F.



#22 suzushii

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:12 PM

QUOTE (FrankPlk @ Mar 11 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First, I should reiterate my point: I personally find acne attractive, at times. This is not the consequence of my (post modern?) reasoning, but the what triggers it.


People can become attracted by many different things, especially if they came into contact with them during their childhood (where imprinting is so much stronger). I know during my childhood I had a crush on this older guy with blue eyes, brown hair, and who was overweight. Since then I've always preffered men with those features, and who did *not* have a six pack, indeed who had a bit of a belly biggrin.gif . Does this go counter to what medicine tells us of the presence of abdominal fat and its impact to the cardiovascular system and a host of other things? Yep. But attraction is a mix between what's deeply imprinted in us (our genetic make-up, our hardwired stuff) and enviromental factors (culture, events in childhood, dramatic events during our lives etc.).

See - the liking of pudginess may be an *aquired* taste of mine, but because I'm *born* heterosexual, no awesome female in my past could have possibly have made me like them. This is an example of a hardwired thing.

So, you may be attracted to people with acne, but the big picture the immense majority of people will preffer clear skin. And we know this because countless anthropologists asked themselves these questions? What is universally attractive. What is universally repelled. For example, incest is universally considered repulsive. Now, someone might say - but I am in love with my first cousin, and I'm attracted to her - culture has brainwashed us into telling us incest is bad. Here - some royalty did it, incest is okay. And see - your argument is similar. The fact that one person finds incest acceptable, the fact that one person finds acne attractive, does not take away from the general picture. Most cultures find clear skin prefferable and incest a tabu. You may say that you don't agree with it, but I'm not stating an opinion, I'm stating a fact.


QUOTE
Yes, of course, acne is a lesion of the skin, and all other things in you description. All these name from biology which you use sound uggly -like most scientific terms. You would make Nefertiti look uggly if you described her face with these terms. As to the notion that, ni all centuries, acne has been considered as a flaw, I fail to see what facts you bring in support to it.


I did not list the names because they sound ugly (which is pretty subjective, as I find them interesting, considering I'm a biochemist). I listed them because they describe pathological or at least malignant processes. They do not happen unless something is *wrong*. The skin's physiological function (normal) is among other things a barrier to outside bacteria, viruses and toxins. A breach in that barrier - a lesion, means that all those bad things have a way of coming in. That's why a lesion is bad. Inflammation means something foreign has been detected in the normal layers of tissue - the body riles up many cells and substances to contain the foreign agents, as most are viruses, bacteria, toxins, or simply cells which have died when they shouldn't have, in the wrong way (right being apoptosis) and shouldn't be there as they might do damage. The problem with inflammation is that despite being a reaction of a tissue to help with something, in and of itself it has bad consequences. Inflammation is at the basis of atheroma formation, and that's the stuff that clogs your arteries and gives you heart attacks.

Acne cannot be redefined as something good, as the visible aspect of acne is simply your body's way of fighting stuff that shouldn't be there. Pustules are present not only in acne, they're also there in stuff like pox. Will you say pox is beautiful? I doubt it.

So is acne beautiful? It is for you. But in the general picture, it can be anything from a mild detterent to a deal breaker. You are definitely out of the ordinary here.

#23 Katt99

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:33 PM

Well, this certainly does pertain to the actual title of the post, but I happen to find men with acne more appealing the men with flawless skin. One might think this is because I feel like an equivalent to him in a sense, or I feel "grounded" that way. But based on pure looks alone, acne gives a man character. BUT it does depend on the type of lesions, in my case. If I could choose where my guy had acne, it would be on the cheeks. It looks very masculine for some reason. I tend to do a double take (it an attracted way) when i see a man with far from perfect cheeks. This might sound weird, in addition to all of the rest, but my dad has really bad acne scarring on his cheeks. Isn't it true that daughters look for their father's traits in the guys they like? Or would that just be too weird.....

as for girls with acne. I am attracted to girls (though I'm not lez) who have acne in certain places. it shows that they are totally real and can offer you those little quirks we often seek in a mate. I am not particularly fond of seeing girls with forehead acne, or acne around the mouth. A little is okay. But AGAIN i have to mention the cheek area. For some reason, I could let acne go to town on any pretty girl and I would find her even more feminine.
Current Regimen:

AM: Blot or maybe rinse with water
Skin Gel by Aloe Life on pimples
Sometimes everyday minerals to cover up

PM: cleanse with jojoba oil, steam face with wash cloth and gently exfoliate (if I'm not lazy)
Skin Gel....like a mask all over my face :)

I have discovered that my acne isn't better when I am always trying to medicate it... When i wash my face every night and use specific acne solutions, my acne is no better. I once went 5 days without washing (out of pure laziness actually) I even wore makeup and all that jazz haha ew, and my skin didn't get worse. I find I have less big pimples, and whatever I do have there is dried up fantastically by the aloe gel.

I'm pretty sure the root cause of my acne is completely internal...hormonal most likely.

#24 tygerskyn

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 01:55 PM

QUOTE (Spikey @ Mar 9 2009, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what? acne is a health problem?

for crying out loud, get real. even the smartest, most active, most athletic, healthiest people can be prone to acne. just because they eat a lot of bread, consume a lot of dairy products, and sweat a lot does not mean they are by any means unhealthy.


Um, yes. Acne IS a health problem. It's classified as a disease, and I believe that diseases count as "health problems" unless medical terminology has radically changed its definitions. Your assumption that acne is only caused by eating the wrong foods or "sweating a lot" is absolutely hysterical. Thanks for giving me a giggle today. wink.gif

This thread is pointless. It's fine to say that you individually find acne attractive, but society does not. Comparing it to things like fashionable scarification or freckles is ridiculous. This isn't even a debate, it's just an opinion that was dressed up like one.
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#25 FrankPlk

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 06:34 AM

Tygersjyn, I don't really see your point. You say the thread is pointless, that I'm just giving my opinion. But what can be the point of a post if not giving one's opinion?

suzushii I don't think were are so far apart. The point is: some people like acne. We probably disagree on how many. You would say one me -but then look at the post from Katt99, that's two of us. I would say, more than just the two of us, but of course a minority. When does the opinion of minority stop being an exception to become a minority feature within a culture? I don't know. This is up for discussion.
But the point is that some people like acne. Then, I'd like to ask you: did you know that? And if not, is it not true that people with acne should know this as it may change (be it in a minor way) their perspective?

#26 FrankPlk

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 06:57 AM

QUOTE (Katt99 @ Mar 10 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, this certainly does pertain to the actual title of the post, but I happen to find men with acne more appealing the men with flawless skin. One might think this is because I feel like an equivalent to him in a sense, or I feel "grounded" that way. But based on pure looks alone, acne gives a man character. BUT it does depend on the type of lesions, in my case. If I could choose where my guy had acne, it would be on the cheeks. It looks very masculine for some reason. I tend to do a double take (it an attracted way) when i see a man with far from perfect cheeks. This might sound weird, in addition to all of the rest, but my dad has really bad acne scarring on his cheeks. Isn't it true that daughters look for their father's traits in the guys they like? Or would that just be too weird.....

as for girls with acne. I am attracted to girls (though I'm not lez) who have acne in certain places. it shows that they are totally real and can offer you those little quirks we often seek in a mate. I am not particularly fond of seeing girls with forehead acne, or acne around the mouth. A little is okay. But AGAIN i have to mention the cheek area. For some reason, I could let acne go to town on any pretty girl and I would find her even more feminine.


Thank you Katt99 !! biggrin.gif
At last someone is siding with me. eusa_clap.gif

I'm exactly like you, but opposite in gender: although I am not gay, I find that men with acne, and even more acne scars, look more masculine. It gives their face more strengh.
As for girls, I definitly find that women with acne look much more classy. I also agree for the location: the cheek area is a nice spot. The forehead too although adult women rarely have acne on the forehead. And around the mouth is very sexy. I must say I find back acne also nice.

btw: do you have acne yourself?

#27 TitchyB

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 07:11 AM

I cant say that I find acne attractive or un-attractive, it certainly would NOT put me off someone. I dont find it ugly on other people (I feel ugly myself but Im working on that)
I said in a different thread about Keanu Reeves.... nasty scarring but holy crap Id go to TOWN on him eusa_silenced.gif

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#28 oyamaguchi

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 08:00 AM

for me i find women with acne is hot...

#29 SomeGuy86

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE (oyamaguchi @ Mar 12 2009, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
for me i find women with acne is hot...


you'd scoop that low to get laid....gsus! (j/k)

Honestly...Doesn't bother me, why the hell would it considering I've had acne. Great thing is, you can share the experience and help each other if you indeed end up with a women that has acne, you both don't feel embarrassed, know the feeling/pain of having such a skin condition. I don't look at skin, rather the beauty behind it. Acne doesn't make an already attractive girl look ugly..remember that.















#30 TitchyB

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:35 AM

QUOTE (SomeGuy86 @ Mar 12 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (oyamaguchi @ Mar 12 2009, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
for me i find women with acne is hot...


you'd scoop that low to get laid....gsus! (j/k)

Honestly...Doesn't bother me, why the hell would it considering I've had acne. Great thing is, you can share the experience and help each other if you indeed end up with a women that has acne, you both don't feel embarrassed, know the feeling/pain of having such a skin condition. I don't look at skin, rather the beauty behind it. Acne doesn't make an already attractive girl look ugly..remember that.

wub.gif

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#31 FrankPlk

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 10:54 AM

Titch O'Binky, you see I'm sure that the scarring on Keanu Reeves is part of what gives him this masculine attraction.

It's good to read that you are working on not finding it more uggly on you than you find it on other people. I read you post on how miserable you felt when you thought other mums were staring at you when you bring your boys to school.

Part of the point of this thread (yes, there is a point to it, despite tygerskyn's claim) is for people like you to know that (i) not everyone that look at you think badly of you because you have acne, and (ii) some even think you look cuter with it.
I sincerely hope that knowing this truth will help you.

#32 tygerskyn

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE (FrankPlk @ Mar 12 2009, 06:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Tygersjyn, I don't really see your point. You say the thread is pointless, that I'm just giving my opinion. But what can be the point of a post if not giving one's opinion?


There can be lots of points for a post on a message board besides giving an opinion. What you tried to do was create a thread in which you wanted to convince people that acne is just as socially acceptable as freckles. It's fine to make threads about your opinion, just pointless to build an argument based on unrelated comparisons, and without any actual facts.

In other words, go ahead and say you find women with acne attractive. But don't try to defend it with comparisons of things like freckles or scarification unless you want people like me in your thread. smile.gif
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#33 FrankPlk

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 04:27 AM

QUOTE (tygerskyn @ Mar 12 2009, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In other words, go ahead and say you find women with acne attractive. But don't try to defend it with comparisons of things like freckles or scarification unless you want people like me in your thread. smile.gif


I don't have a problem having you in my thread tygerskyn. You are always welcome here.
I did not post this thread with a view to convince anyone. Actually, I'd be very interested to see a thread where someone convinces another person, like "yeah, that's true, finally you must be right, God does not exist". The interesting thing about expressing diverging opinion is not so much to try to convince the others, but to merely show that a different opinion can exist.

#34 TitchyB

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 04:37 AM

QUOTE (FrankPlk @ Mar 12 2009, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Titch O'Binky, you see I'm sure that the scarring on Keanu Reeves is part of what gives him this masculine attraction.

It's good to read that you are working on not finding it more uggly on you than you find it on other people. I read you post on how miserable you felt when you thought other mums were staring at you when you bring your boys to school.

Part of the point of this thread (yes, there is a point to it, despite tygerskyn's claim) is for people like you to know that (i) not everyone that look at you think badly of you because you have acne, and (ii) some even think you look cuter with it.
I sincerely hope that knowing this truth will help you.


I honestly thought it would never happen, but after finding this website and all the wonderful/amazing/*insert good thing here* people, I am starting to feel comfortable in my own skin. I certainly dont feel ugly now, just a bit different. I know my red marks will take a long time to fade properly (genetics.. BAH Im a slow healer) and that the ice-picks wont go unless I treat them, but Im actually thinking about keeping them. My face has been through enough already and I dont want to stress it anymore.
Ive had no new breakouts apart from my Three Amigos in well over two weeks, but even they arent all that evil looking.
I think you are right tbh. Everyone on this planet has the right to be and feel beautiful, acne ridden or not. Acne does not make people ugly, only thing is, we have to tackle our own negative thoughts before changing someone elses perception of us.

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#35 FrankPlk

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 06:22 AM

QUOTE (Titch O'Binky @ Mar 13 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you are right tbh. Everyone on this planet has the right to be and feel beautiful, acne ridden or not. Acne does not make people ugly, only thing is, we have to tackle our own negative thoughts before changing someone elses perception of us.


Good to hear. And good to hear that you have already achieved a lot in tackling your negative thoughts. I hope my posting my opinions will help people a bit in this respect.

#36 TitchyB

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 06:36 AM

QUOTE (FrankPlk @ Mar 13 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Titch O'Binky @ Mar 13 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you are right tbh. Everyone on this planet has the right to be and feel beautiful, acne ridden or not. Acne does not make people ugly, only thing is, we have to tackle our own negative thoughts before changing someone elses perception of us.


Good to hear. And good to hear that you have already achieved a lot in tackling your negative thoughts. I hope my posting my opinions will help people a bit in this respect.

I think it will. As soon as you see the flip side of acne, you can start to deal with your own feelings about the aftermath of it. I think my turning point was reading a blog of one of the other users who had severe acne, he came through the other end with a great sense of humour, it seemed like he never let it depress him and certainly didnt allow it to control his life.
So when Im finished here, Ill have scars on my face.... so fricken what? I have my life, my children and my husband.
And a whole bunch of new friends to talk to smile.gif

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#37 tygerskyn

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 01:59 PM

QUOTE (FrankPlk @ Mar 13 2009, 03:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (tygerskyn @ Mar 12 2009, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In other words, go ahead and say you find women with acne attractive. But don't try to defend it with comparisons of things like freckles or scarification unless you want people like me in your thread. smile.gif


I don't have a problem having you in my thread tygerskyn. You are always welcome here.
I did not post this thread with a view to convince anyone. Actually, I'd be very interested to see a thread where someone convinces another person, like "yeah, that's true, finally you must be right, God does not exist". The interesting thing about expressing diverging opinion is not so much to try to convince the others, but to merely show that a different opinion can exist.


I don't have a problem with you or other people finding acne attractive. Really all I have issue with is the comparisons you use. I mean, it's pretty pointless to compare something that's classified as a disease to things like freckles or scarification. It would have been far more accurate to say something like "People who get cold sores on their mouths are still considered attractive."
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#38 SomeGuy86

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:15 PM

QUOTE (Titch O'Binky @ Mar 13 2009, 06:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (FrankPlk @ Mar 13 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Titch O'Binky @ Mar 13 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you are right tbh. Everyone on this planet has the right to be and feel beautiful, acne ridden or not. Acne does not make people ugly, only thing is, we have to tackle our own negative thoughts before changing someone elses perception of us.


Good to hear. And good to hear that you have already achieved a lot in tackling your negative thoughts. I hope my posting my opinions will help people a bit in this respect.

I think it will. As soon as you see the flip side of acne, you can start to deal with your own feelings about the aftermath of it. I think my turning point was reading a blog of one of the other users who had severe acne, he came through the other end with a great sense of humour, it seemed like he never let it depress him and certainly didnt allow it to control his life.
So when Im finished here, Ill have scars on my face.... so fricken what? I have my life, my children and my husband.
And a whole bunch of new friends to talk to smile.gif


Attractive and SMART...I'm impressed. wink.gif

Remind me to give you a cookie.

That being said, Acne suffers down the line will learn to adjust and not take the problem too serious as they once did...I've been through that, especially when they change that negative state of mind. Things could be worse.

#39 MrHelper

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 10:48 PM

To be honest, I don't see acne, I just see the person. Just like I see though the makeup, I see though the acne. I still see it, but it doesn't affect my thoughts on who I find attractive or pretty.

Like today, at the store. I seen a pretty girl at the cashier that looked good but had a lot of acne. She looked very depressed and doesn't make eye contact with anyone. Just a few months ago, the same person was in a happier mood with 95% less acne on her face. It's a shame what it does to people. I still think she looks nice.

But I guess, people with any type of acne can understand what the others have to go though and thus don't care about the acne from the opposite sex. If they're "perfect", then they probably care.

#40 FrankPlk

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:33 AM

QUOTE (MrHelper @ Mar 13 2009, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To be honest, I don't see acne, I just see the person. Just like I see though the makeup, I see though the acne. I still see it, but it doesn't affect my thoughts on who I find attractive or pretty.

Like today, at the store. I seen a pretty girl at the cashier that looked good but had a lot of acne. She looked very depressed and doesn't make eye contact with anyone. Just a few months ago, the same person was in a happier mood with 95% less acne on her face. It's a shame what it does to people. I still think she looks nice.

But I guess, people with any type of acne can understand what the others have to go though and thus don't care about the acne from the opposite sex. If they're "perfect", then they probably care.


Well, if they are "perfect", they probably don't exist. Unless you are living within the matrix.