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Autologous Blood Injection: Acne Scar Repair Via Hyperplasia, Peripheral Stem Cells Deposition, Differentiation & ECM Growth Within Ensuing Haematoma

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I hope that cultured fibroblast technology is finally approved by the FDA in the US. It might work for some and eliminate wrinkles as well. It's approved in England, and I believe the worry was that some of the growth factors given to the tissue cultures might spur cancer growth once reinjected.

It does make me wonder if there is much cancer risk with the injected cells that have been given the growth factors.

BRD,

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your time and knowledge with the members of the forum. I would also like to salute you on your elegance and restraint in handling the inappropriate comments. Your imput is greatly appreciated and I will be closely monitoring your thread.

Thank you once again.

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Naitch said:

"bullshit, if this method truly offered results everyone would be doing it. hogwash."

Is "bullshit" and "hogwash" really inappropriate language? I don't think so. And wow Bulg Derm you came down on him like a ton of bricks. Talk about throwing your weight around. I find that a lot more distasteful that some borderline word like bs.

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robertlapwing,

You have the right to defend Naitch and his use of disrespectful words. You also have a responsibility to objectively evaluate that which you defend.

Here are some definitions for Naitch's chosen vocabulary:

B...S... = implication that the information, effort and time I have shared/invested in this thread is worthless and untrue.

hogwash = meaningless or insincere talk, writing, etc.; nonsense; bunk

I actually find it distasteful to have a person come on here and write in such a disrespectful way, all the while ignoring the fact that I have invested many hours in sharing my knowledge with people who are in need of help. I find it even more distasteful to have you come on here and defend the said actions and usage of inappropriate language, which does not in any way contribute to the cause of aiding those who suffer from acne scars.

In effect, I have provided scientific evidence and knowledge based on my personal experience, while Naitch and yourself have essentially come here to say that it's OK to call what I've done meaningless, worthless and insincere. Thus said, do you find it "tasteful" when you invest many hours in accomplishing a certain task and/or creating something that you intend to help a person with, only to have that person say to you that what you have done is insincere and worthless?

You are mistaken to think that I will simply sit back and allow a negatively inclined person(s) to hijack a topic/thread with unethical behaviour that is offensive not only because of the said words, but also because of what I deem to be empty accusations. You see, I provide evidence (citations, sources, etc...) for my statements, and I expect the same of others, including those who equate my work to the value of zero. In academic circles a person who does this without providing evidence usually has their title taken away.

In other words, prove me wrong with your intellect, not with your lack of manners.

In summary, accusations without evidence are unethical. Opinions formed without objective knowledge are obstructive. Accusations and opinions shared in a derogatory and offensive fashion are destructive.

-Unethical

-Obstructive

-Destructive

Behavior that promotes/constitutes anyone of the above three factors is unwelcome herein.

These are the rules! If they're followed we'll be able to come to a better understanding of one another and indeed produce solutions to complex and personal problems. I know you can help. I know Naitch can help. I know I can help. Everyone can help everyone.

That is after all the point, and succeed we will...

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Bulgarian R. Dermatologist,

I understand your viewpoint better, but I still think you are making a mountain out of molehill. Or in other words you are using a bazooka to kill a mosquito.

The rules on language are: Rule no. 4) "Swearing: Intermittent cursing is ok, but constant, disgusting language will be dumped."

These boards are intended to be somewhat flexible. People will vent their emotional responses from time to time and that is allowed here! This not a scientific peer review Medical blog or journal or whatever. Intellectuality does not rule here. Results of treatments rule here as reported by real people who have the procedures done.

This is not a forum for Solicitation no matter how well intended. See Board Rules 13.

People can and will talk to you anyway they want here as long as it is not too unreasonable. That is allowed here by the rules. On this board we are all peers!

As far as I am concerned these type of boards are invaluable in the kind of info that one can get from real people. You should provide your scientific info on your own personal webpage and in scientific journals (as you probably already do.) I like to look there too, but for me I want to have both worlds separated.

Let the patients speak here! As far as I concern, that is who I want to hear from when I come here. And to me that is what this board is about. The last thing want here is doctors soliciting their latest procedures.

Hey but if others want to hear from you great. It is not for me to decide. I will just ignore this thread for now.

Just don't be "Naitch" hating here. I understand his frustration and his automatic and deep skepticism of the latest cure. Do you? I don't think you can unless you are one of us.

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Hi robertlapwing,

I do not think you have read all of my posts from the very first to the very last, because if you had you would know a few things about me and thus not portray me as you have in your last post. Here is some information about me that you could have known had you read everything I've posted here:

- I do consider myself a peer (one of you) to all who suffer from acne scars because I too have suffered from them since I was a teen. That's why I am currently doing my best to develop an effective treatment for hypotrophic scars.

- I do not think of this forum as a medical blog or anything of the sort. In fact I do believe this site is far more valuable to those who suffer from scars than anything else out there, simply because it allows everyone to see through the unethical advertising of so-called medical professionals.

- I am disappointed by the actions of many if not most of the medical doctors who are involved in the treatment of acne scars. I've stated this numerous times.

- I do not solicit treatments. I simply have knowledge that the majority of doctors either (a) do not know themselves or (b) will not share with their patients for a number of reasons I've outlined before. I am here to share this knowledge with you and others, because I do not think it should be hidden from public view.

- I've discussed various treatments with people that I consider safe and truly beneficial. That's why I am a fan of autologous fillers. I also tell people to stay away from treatments that destroy the epidermis, because more often than not these result in further scarring. I also try to identify affordable/effective treatments, because all too often people pay far more than they ever should for the treatments they receive.

Please carefully read everything I've posted thus far before you try to paint me a certain way. I guess you did not consider what I said about unethical accusations and opinions based on a lack of information, in this case information specifically relating to me.

I think it's fine to vent your feelings here. In fact that is encouraged. However this has nothing to do with acting in a disrespecful manner towards your fellow peers. It's never OK to disrespect others.

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Hey Bulgarian R. Dermatologist,

Well it looks like I stand corrected then on many points. I look forward to reading your many posts here, when I get more time. Apparently I only caught your remark to Naith, and I really didn't read much else of that thread. I only come here intermittently as of late and I am not that familiar with all the posters here. I am glad to hear you are one of us and that you are trying to fight the good fight.

Robertlapwing

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Bulg. Derm,

I have been following your posts and you seem to offer a more inteligent approach to treating scars than most doctors. What are your thoughts about the medical roll cit. Also what can be done for tiny scarred pores. I have needled with a 30g diabetic lance but so far hasn't done the trick.

Thanks for your reply

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Hi havingfaith,

Thanks for the kind words.

With regard to the medical roll kit, I belive it does offer the potential for good results.

I like to combine derma rollers. One is ~0.5mm in length and the other 1.5 - 2mm. The former aids in the daily absorbtion of medicinal substances (ie: vitamin-C cream, tropoelastin, hyaluronic acid, etc...) so that they can get down to the scar tissue, while the latter (used once every two to three months) is for actually breaking down the scar tissue and stimulating ecm remodelling by way collagen growth.

From my experience I can say that it takes quite a few treatments to see good results. A minimum of four months are needed to see minimal results when using the above regimen.

Best of luck,

BRD

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Bulg. Derm,

Thanks for your reply. What Vitamin C and hylaronic acid creams do you recommned. From your earlier posts you mentioned about your own saliva containing many essential components for healing would that be all you need or do the other supplements help also.

Thanks

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Hi Bulg. Derm,,

I am thrill when i saw this thread. I have done many various acne scar treatment and also went for numerous times of fats transfer and even done a perm filler "Aquamid" but all dosen't even stay more than one week after injection.

Was wondering if the blood transfer method will be more effective? Was thinking of asking my PS to try on me...but wish to know wat are the steps to ensure it will last and the correct procedures to do the injection

Thanks

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Aquamid was never approved in the US to my knowledge and there was a big article in past couple of month in Europe about how in was being banned due to infection risk.

Apparently, the plastic matrix is a great medium for bacterial infection. I always suspected that, just like the structure of a contact lens could become infilltrated by bacteria. If possible, always use your own tissue as a filler. HTH

Hi Bulg. Derm,,

I am thrill when i saw this thread. I have done many various acne scar treatment and also went for numerous times of fats transfer and even done a perm filler "Aquamid" but all dosen't even stay more than one week after injection.

Was wondering if the blood transfer method will be more effective? Was thinking of asking my PS to try on me...but wish to know wat are the steps to ensure it will last and the correct procedures to do the injection

Thanks

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Joedude,

No I haven't tried fat injections but was considering doing that. One doctor on his website who apparently does a lot of fat grafting said it wasn't good for scars. That it is a live graft and can look like a bump. Don't know about that. Have you had fat injected and how long did it last. Was it contoured nicely with surrounding skin?

Thanks

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Hi havingfaith,

I don't have any particular recommendations. I don't want to advertise for any company, because then people may feel that I have some hidden agenda and/or financial incentive to do so. My philosophy is to help you by giving you information that you can then use as a guiding light in your own personal research.

Thereby, here's the information that will point you in the right direction:

- Use a Vitamin-C cream that has a high ascorbic acid concentration of 15% or more. Make sure that the ascorbic acid has been stabilized, otherwise it won't work.

- With regard to hyaluronic acid (HA), you do not need to buy a cream that contains it. You can actually just buy pure HA. You could use an ionic galvanizer massager (personal device) and/or an ultrasound massager (personal device) to help your skin absorb a greater proportion of the substance when it's placed on your epidermis. You can also go the low tech way and buy a dermaroller with a needle length anywhere between 0.2mm and 0.75mm, which will also help you absorb topical creams.

- Your saliva does contain many beneficial substances (ie: growth factors) and it is a natural carrier for HA. There are many peer reviewed articles about the properties of saliva out there on the net. Read them and determine if you like what you see. Saliva can indeed help make your skin more beautiful. Best of all, it's free. Nonetheless, many people will read this and likely think I am crazy. That's normal, after all saliva doesn't really fit society's modern conceptualization of a face cream. That said, I have conducted a study in which I showed that saliva is more effective for certain skin conditions than some of the very expensive creams out there which can sometimes do more harm then good.

Have a good day,

BRD

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Hello bunnyoboy,

I suggest you stay away from permanent synthetic fillers. Dangerous stuff!

As for the blood injections, ask your doctor to carefully look at the studies conducted on blood injections. Blood injections have been used for all kinds of purposes. They have been used in inflammated tendons, injured muscles, etc ,..., and of course skin. Your doctor needs to understand the mechanisms of action, otherwise he likely won't believe in the treatment. If he does not, then he will also not take it seriously.

(A) There is a blood injection technique called the Bastille method. Herein blood is injected into the scar and used as a chromophore for a non-ablative laser and/or IPL device. The blood has to be precisely injected only where the hypotrophic scar exists. It then acts as a pigment which absorbs the light from the IPL and thereby heats up the coagulated blood (haematoma). This heat is contained inside the skin and will not cause the epidermis to be harmed. Think of the blood acting as a catcher for the light precisely in the area where its needed. In this way, the IPL will not heat up the healthy tissue nearly as much as it heats up the atrophied (and now temporarily pigmented) area in your skin. It's a beautiful technique when done properly, because its precision oriented. Doing the traditional non-ablative laser/IPL treatment is like carpet bombing in WWII, wherein the innocent civilians pay the price. The Bastille method is more like using guided missiles to only inflict damage on military targets, whereby civilians are spared obliteration.

Note of warning: Your doctor will have to try this with a very low setting on the IPL to see how your skin reacts. Never, and I do mean, NEVER, should he/she go high on the settings. I am not a believer in the 'one shot cure'. Also, get him to do this on one scar only, until he/she actually knows what they are doing. No need for heroics. Safety is always paramount.

(B) Another blood injection technique is to simply inject the blood into the scar tissue and let it sit there as a haematoma for a few days. I've already described this in detail. It is effective in slowly rebuilding the ECM. The procedure should be repeated every two to four weeks. Patience is important here, but you will see progressive results.

The use of technique (B) in-between treatments with technique (A) is encouraged. One technique complements the other.

My treatment plan:

-Do technique (B) first. Wait for haematoma to completely disappear. When this happens wait another two weeks before doing technique (A). After completing (A) wait two weeks and do (B) again. Repeat the cycle as needed...

Best of luck,

BRD

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I have had good results with fat injections. My PS did a good job of injection and I've had two rounds of injections. The fat was taken from my butt. My PS did make sure theat the injected fat did not make a scar bulge near my cheekbone.

I think one third of the fat lived. It's difficult to say because I'm not sure what volume he injected and how much was due to swelling from the novocaine. It was very unconfortable both the harvesting from my butt and the pumping the fat into my face. I am not squeamish, but it was gross. I looked freakish for the first couple days. There was not much bruising though. He used a smaller canula tip for injecting under my eyes to create very small fat fragments and then used a different tip to plump up with larger-sized fat globs along the cheekbone. He was definitely organized in his methods. I'd say my results are excellent, and I think I look younger. I am planning to have Total FX in the fall to fix some texture problems on my skin.

I'd always rather have autologous products injected as filler rather than artificial substances.

Some good information here from an experienced and seemingly objective dermatologist:

http://aad2007.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/FOC-807.pdf

Interesting academic article about Oral Topiramate for the improvement of acne scars (or for that matter all types of scars):

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/113/letters/t...ate/rakesh.html

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Bulgarian R. Dermatologist, your a good man :). Your the definion of what a doctor should be, that is a person that helps others get better not a money sucking parasite.

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the do u think of the science of saline injections?

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has anyone got their doc to do this, ?? can this be done by ourselves getting a syringe, getting blood out of vien and injecting in the scar?

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Hello bunnyoboy,

I suggest you stay away from permanent synthetic fillers. Dangerous stuff!

As for the blood injections, ask your doctor to carefully look at the studies conducted on blood injections. Blood injections have been used for all kinds of purposes. They have been used in inflammated tendons, injured muscles, etc ,..., and of course skin. Your doctor needs to understand the mechanisms of action, otherwise he likely won't believe in the treatment. If he does not, then he will also not take it seriously.

(A) There is a blood injection technique called the Bastille method. Herein blood is injected into the scar and used as a chromophore for a non-ablative laser and/or IPL device. The blood has to be precisely injected only where the hypotrophic scar exists. It then acts as a pigment which absorbs the light from the IPL and thereby heats up the coagulated blood (haematoma). This heat is contained inside the skin and will not cause the epidermis to be harmed. Think of the blood acting as a catcher for the light precisely in the area where its needed. In this way, the IPL will not heat up the healthy tissue nearly as much as it heats up the atrophied (and now temporarily pigmented) area in your skin. It's a beautiful technique when done properly, because its precision oriented. Doing the traditional non-ablative laser/IPL treatment is like carpet bombing in WWII, wherein the innocent civilians pay the price. The Bastille method is more like using guided missiles to only inflict damage on military targets, whereby civilians are spared obliteration.

Note of warning: Your doctor will have to try this with a very low setting on the IPL to see how your skin reacts. Never, and I do mean, NEVER, should he/she go high on the settings. I am not a believer in the 'one shot cure'. Also, get him to do this on one scar only, until he/she actually knows what they are doing. No need for heroics. Safety is always paramount.

(B) Another blood injection technique is to simply inject the blood into the scar tissue and let it sit there as a haematoma for a few days. I've already described this in detail. It is effective in slowly rebuilding the ECM. The procedure should be repeated every two to four weeks. Patience is important here, but you will see progressive results.

The use of technique (B) in-between treatments with technique (A) is encouraged. One technique complements the other.

My treatment plan:

-Do technique (B) first. Wait for haematoma to completely disappear. When this happens wait another two weeks before doing technique (A). After completing (A) wait two weeks and do (B) again. Repeat the cycle as needed...

Best of luck,

BRD

hi Bulgarian R. Dermatologist,

where can i extract my blood?

wouldn't the blood just get reabsorbed after the injection? like the saline injections.

how many treatments would it take to treat boxscars and rolling scars?

could i just do technique B? i cannot afford technique A.

would it still be effective?

thanks

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I have had good results with fat injections. My PS did a good job of injection and I've had two rounds of injections. The fat was taken from my butt. My PS did make sure theat the injected fat did not make a scar bulge near my cheekbone.

I think one third of the fat lived. It's difficult to say because I'm not sure what volume he injected and how much was due to swelling from the novocaine. It was very unconfortable both the harvesting from my butt and the pumping the fat into my face. I am not squeamish, but it was gross. I looked freakish for the first couple days. There was not much bruising though. He used a smaller canula tip for injecting under my eyes to create very small fat fragments and then used a different tip to plump up with larger-sized fat globs along the cheekbone. He was definitely organized in his methods. I'd say my results are excellent, and I think I look younger. I am planning to have Total FX in the fall to fix some texture problems on my skin.

I'd always rather have autologous products injected as filler rather than artificial substances.

Some good information here from an experienced and seemingly objective dermatologist:

http://aad2007.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/FOC-807.pdf

Interesting academic article about Oral Topiramate for the improvement of acne scars (or for that matter all types of scars):

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/113/letters/t...ate/rakesh.html

Hi Joedude,

Did ur doc inform u of any impact from laser treatments such as fraxel or total FX?Would it affect the injected fats in any way?

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I have had good results with fat injections. My PS did a good job of injection and I've had two rounds of injections. The fat was taken from my butt. My PS did make sure theat the injected fat did not make a scar bulge near my cheekbone.

I think one third of the fat lived. It's difficult to say because I'm not sure what volume he injected and how much was due to swelling from the novocaine. It was very unconfortable both the harvesting from my butt and the pumping the fat into my face. I am not squeamish, but it was gross. I looked freakish for the first couple days. There was not much bruising though. He used a smaller canula tip for injecting under my eyes to create very small fat fragments and then used a different tip to plump up with larger-sized fat globs along the cheekbone. He was definitely organized in his methods. I'd say my results are excellent, and I think I look younger. I am planning to have Total FX in the fall to fix some texture problems on my skin.

I'd always rather have autologous products injected as filler rather than artificial substances.

Some good information here from an experienced and seemingly objective dermatologist:

http://aad2007.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/FOC-807.pdf

Interesting academic article about Oral Topiramate for the improvement of acne scars (or for that matter all types of scars):

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/113/letters/t...ate/rakesh.html

Hi joedude a follow up question. You said that you flew in for the precedure.. i was wondering how did u arrange for the doc to work on you. did u send him photos through email and enquired abotu fat transfer.. reason being is that i have to fly in also.

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My current derm told me about an Australian doctor who injects blood into scars and is achieving great results. Perhaps this is one way for some of us to go.

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My current derm told me about an Australian doctor who injects blood into scars and is achieving great results. Perhaps this is one way for some of us to go.

I don't think I can find a derm that would do this nearby. If someone could write out a plan for self-injections, I would be grateful.

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Basically a small amount of blood or saline is injected beneath the scar. Then the area shot (in the lightest mode) by a laser like IPL. I don't think it is possible to do a good job on your own. Better let a professional with enough confidence to give it a shot.

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