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#1 AltaPGT

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 04:55 PM

This is a question to you people out there who lift weights/try to put on muscle and follow a low carbohydrate diet. Most lifters try to spike their insulin after workouts to get carbs and protein into the muscles asap. That is basically the complete opposite of what we want as far as defeating acne is concerned. We try to minimize insulin spikes and avoid carbs.

For those that follow a low carb diet and lift weights: have you noticed a decrease in gains, strength, endurance, tone, or any other aspect because of your lack of carbs?

Thank you.

#2 Danny©

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE (AltaPGT @ Apr 13 2008, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a question to you people out there who lift weights/try to put on muscle and follow a low carbohydrate diet. Most lifters try to spike their insulin after workouts to get carbs and protein into the muscles asap. That is basically the complete opposite of what we want as far as defeating acne is concerned. We try to minimize insulin spikes and avoid carbs.

For those that follow a low carb diet and lift weights: have you noticed a decrease in gains, strength, endurance, tone, or any other aspect because of your lack of carbs?


It's just not possible to really bodybuild without carbs
Fats don't replenish glycogen and neither fats nor ketones can really sustain the high intensity anaerobic activity required to build. That being said you can achieve that without having a super high carbohydrate diets but you need carbs for sure. If you want to do a very low carb you need refeeds when bodybuilding from 24 to 48 hours of high carb eating.

Also I don't agree that spiking insulin negatively effects acne. Insulin per se is neutral, it's whatever impaired process in which chronically high levels of insulin are developed that affects acne. The reason you have a spike of insulin by eating carbs post-workout is that your body craves them like nothing else, in order to replenish glycogen stores. There's an hgh concentration of glycogenic enzymes and the insulin spike is there to secure a fast disappareance of sugar from the blood. Done that insulin goes back to normal.
There's no way that this is harmful to your body or skin. The sugar is sent to the cells and therefore has not a chance to keep BGs high enough. Insulin is immediately lower once it has delivered. Muscle cells are nourished and glycogen is replenished at a 50 times faster rate.
That's pure "nutrition" based on demand and supply.

#3 AlexGF

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 05:59 PM

is there a problem if you exceed the amount of carbs post workout? too little and you will see little effects, but too much could be not as good? I heard that 200 gm of carbs after workout would be okay, but that seems like a lot.

Acne is disappearing... slowly

Status : 95% CLEAR
Regime: this regime has worked for me for the past month. Diet is nothig special; just avoid diary and sugary drinks/foods.. still eating lots of junk food like fries which doesnt' seem to affect me, have some fibre in the breakfast from berries and oats. Chicken, rice, bread, tuna, peppermint and green tea, cocoa, eggs, lost of baby carrots
THE KEY: Sunlight in the morning (15 to 30 mins), sleep at least 7 hrs a day
drink water whenever I can (aimin for 2 ltrs), wash my face with water morning and night
sexual activity only once every 10 days (til my skin recovers, then keep it moderate)
SUPPLEMENTS: MSM 1000 mg 3 times a day, Zinc 50 mg once a day, Vitamin C 500 mg twice a day


#4 Danny©

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 06:15 PM

QUOTE (AlexGF @ Apr 13 2008, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
is there a problem if you exceed the amount of carbs post workout? too little and you will see little effects, but too much could be not as good? I heard that 200 gm of carbs after workout would be okay, but that seems like a lot.


It all depends on your activity, weight, height and goals.
If you're bulking and have done very intense activity for 70 minutes you might need a lot of carbs. A practical minumum is 0.6g/lb per hour of intense training.

Just because your body is receptive after a workout it doens't mean you can feed him tons of carbs. First of all calories are the king and if your provide a lot more calories than you have burned most of them will need to be turned into stored body fat. But still you don't want to exceed your liver and muscular glycogen capacity by a lot. So it depends on how much your depleted your glycogen, how much you need muscular synthesis and again your caloric consumption, weight, height and most important body fat mass.

Stick with that figure and you won't have problems.

#5 AltaPGT

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 07:17 PM

Thanks Danny, I am anxious to hear what Healthoid and the others might have to say about this, because in the past I have heard that they do quite well despite having few carbs...

#6 Glennart

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 02:59 AM

I have gained a considerable amount of weight on a low carb high fat diet. I was underweight before from eating "healthy" but after going low carb I gained all my weight back, and then some.

Im not really into bodybuilding, I just train muay thai 2x a week and skateboard every now and then. Im about 78 kg right now, still gaining a bit each week.

Here I am at I don't know what weight, just way too skinny that's for sure.

Here I was at 75 kg in february.

So yeah it's perfectly possible to gain muscle without any carbs at all. I don't necessarily think that it is optimal. A ketogenic diet can defenetly be a catabolic diet. But I don't think my personal results would have been all that different with post workout carbs though. Just go ahead and experiment, gaining mass takes time anyway, so there is certainly room for tweaking before you find what works for you.

#7 Danny©

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:26 AM

I think it depends on the intensity and kind of exercise.
For example martial arts combine phases of anaerobic activity and phases of aerobic activity.
A exclusively anaerobic exercise would requires carbs or at least weekly refeeds.
The reason is physiological. During aerobic acitivity oxygen is not available and fat can't be burned without oxygen. This doesn't only mean no fatty acids but also no ketone bodies and no glycerol.
The only energy could come from glucogenesis which means protein catabolism but not only such form of energy is catabolic and uneconomical but it can't provide atp fast.


#8 Seekirus

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 05:01 AM

I have low carbs, low fats and higher amounts of protein.
Although i'm not trying to get big, i'm slim and toned.

#9 AlexGF

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:38 PM

QUOTE (Seekirus @ Apr 14 2008, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have low carbs, low fats and higher amounts of protein.
Although i'm not trying to get big, i'm slim and toned.


if you're low carb you must go high fat, getting fuel from protein is not a good choice





Acne is disappearing... slowly

Status : 95% CLEAR
Regime: this regime has worked for me for the past month. Diet is nothig special; just avoid diary and sugary drinks/foods.. still eating lots of junk food like fries which doesnt' seem to affect me, have some fibre in the breakfast from berries and oats. Chicken, rice, bread, tuna, peppermint and green tea, cocoa, eggs, lost of baby carrots
THE KEY: Sunlight in the morning (15 to 30 mins), sleep at least 7 hrs a day
drink water whenever I can (aimin for 2 ltrs), wash my face with water morning and night
sexual activity only once every 10 days (til my skin recovers, then keep it moderate)
SUPPLEMENTS: MSM 1000 mg 3 times a day, Zinc 50 mg once a day, Vitamin C 500 mg twice a day


#10 Danny©

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE (AlexGF @ Apr 14 2008, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Seekirus @ Apr 14 2008, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have low carbs, low fats and higher amounts of protein.
Although i'm not trying to get big, i'm slim and toned.


if you're low carb you must go high fat, getting fuel from protein is not a good choice


Getting not enough protein is not a good choice either though and nowadays you see the fat-fanatics completely disregardig the importance of protein, taking a total of 40 grams of protein a day. This is expecially more important when you talk about body-building, sport, athleticism and what not since all this form of regular physical activities increase the protein turnover and fat is not muscle sparing like carbs. Sometimes when you choose only very high food it's very easy to take only 15 grams of protein every 600 calories. What most people seems not to realize is that low-fat or lean foods are not a way to limit fat but a way to maximize proteins. When I'm in bulking and cutting I have to favour less fat foods like lean cottage cheese or egg whites or low-fat yogurt; not because I'm afraid of fat ... but because it's the only way to take my 1/1.5g/lb of proteins without excessing calories and throwing my results out of the windows.

#11 rakbs

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:52 PM

QUOTE (Danny© @ Apr 14 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I'm in bulking and cutting I have to favour less fat foods like lean cottage cheese or egg whites or low-fat yogurt.


And what would you do if you didn't have access to foods that had the fat removed for you? I.e., if you lived a few thousand (or even hundred) years ago? I think cavemen got plenty muscular without having to go out and buy fat-free dairy.

In my opinion the healthiest diet is one that doesn't require any part of the food to be removed.
Clear for 8+ months now through striving for optimal fitness levels, stress levels, sleep, nutrient density in my body, and an overall holistic lifestyle approach.

Diet (I stick to this as much as I can): eggs; meat; poultry; wild-caught seafood; vegetables; fat sources from coconut oil, olive oil, and butter; fruit as I crave it; tea; and purified water. I buy organic and/or pastured foods as I reasonably can, but I think that it's the type of foods you eat, and not the quality of food (within reason, of course) that most determines how healthy you will be.

I highly recommend green smoothies as nutrition powerhouses. They are good on so many levels.

Now experimenting with a higher proportion of legumes, nuts, and seeds in my diet.

I eat absolutely no gluten. I limit intake of all grains, but up to two servings of non-glutenous grain a day is fine. I avoid all added sugar--high fructose corn syrup, sugar, honey, etc. I stay away from soybean oil, canola oil, sunflower oil, and other oils not named olive or coconut. I base my diet off of whole, unprocessed foods, and I prepare them in healthful, delicious ways.

Daily exercise. Sunlight whenever possible.

Supplements: Currently? None. Supplements that have helped in the past (and I can personally recommend) are fish oil, zinc, apple cider vinegar, Vitamin D.

#12 Seekirus

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 03:04 AM

QUOTE (AlexGF @ Apr 14 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Seekirus @ Apr 14 2008, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have low carbs, low fats and higher amounts of protein.
Although i'm not trying to get big, i'm slim and toned.


if you're low carb you must go high fat, getting fuel from protein is not a good choice


No, I don't favour fat either, I take about 20grams of fat a day, probably less, I have about two tins of tuna a day which is about 60-70grams of protein and about 120grams of carbs.
Works for me cause I hold muscle and i've stripped pretty much most of my body fat, as I can see my abs pretty well.


QUOTE (rakbs @ Apr 15 2008, 03:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Danny© @ Apr 14 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I'm in bulking and cutting I have to favour less fat foods like lean cottage cheese or egg whites or low-fat yogurt.


And what would you do if you didn't have access to foods that had the fat removed for you? I.e., if you lived a few thousand (or even hundred) years ago? I think cavemen got plenty muscular without having to go out and buy fat-free dairy.

In my opinion the healthiest diet is one that doesn't require any part of the food to be removed.


To be honest, they probaby became muscular because they may have not stopped moving/hunting all day untill they slept, and so they would of been burning calories constantly.

#13 phoenity

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:27 AM

Around the beginning of this year, I started doing the Paleo diet and had incredible results in clearing my skin. I was eating high fat and high protein and what carbs I ate were just fruit and veggies. Although I am not a bodybuilder trying to put on mass, I am an endurance athlete who requires the same type of recovery carbohydrates after exercise, so Paleo dieting causes a problem for me.

When I first started the Paleo diet I was in the off-season part of my training doing low-intensity aerobic base building exercise. On the Paleo diet I found that my endurance and aerobic capacity actually felt more efficient once my body adapted to the high fat diet. While I would frequently burn 1500-2000 calories on a single ride, since I was aerobic most of the time so I was burning mostly fat so I could get away with eating fruits and veggies during recovery.

Where I have run into problems with the Paleo diet is when I started increasing the intensity back in March in preparation for racing which requires a lot more anaerobic efforts. I quickly found that the fruits and veggies just weren't cutting it during the recovery window after exercise so I had to start introducing higher carb meals so that I could recover well and replenish muscle glycogen stores.

Now my skin is back to where I started before the Paleo diet and I have to assume this is because of the high amount of carbs I have to ingest.

I'm also wondering if the Paleo diet + moderate carb is negatively affecting me after reading Dotty1's post re: insulin resistance. I have reasons to suspect my acne is caused by hormonal imbalances/insulin resistance and her latest threads show proof that high fat diets increase insulin resistance. If this is in fact true, the Paleo dieting in combination with moderate carbs is could be the root cause of my insulin resistance, and could in fact be negatively affecting my recovery as insulin resistance could be very detrimental to cell recovery.

I think I may try the low fat low-GI diet and see how I do there. It seems like it would fit my dietary needs as an athlete.

Low-fat, low-GI was essentially my diet last summer when I was cycling. I did have acne but it was minimal compared to how it is now. Also, blood tests from a physical last summer reported my blood lipids were at amazingly healthy levels. I'm curious where my blood lipids stand now that I have been eating Paleo for the past 4 months.

#14 Danny©

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 02:24 PM

QUOTE (rakbs @ Apr 14 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Danny© @ Apr 14 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I'm in bulking and cutting I have to favour less fat foods like lean cottage cheese or egg whites or low-fat yogurt.


And what would you do if you didn't have access to foods that had the fat removed for you? I.e., if you lived a few thousand (or even hundred) years ago? I think cavemen got plenty muscular without having to go out and buy fat-free dairy.


I probably wouldn't body build.
I do believe in casual fitness based on living an healthy life but I also believe in tweaked fitness, on overcoming certain walls, on sculpting a body you wouldn't normally have in nature; while I also aknowledge how nowdays modern world is not anymore compatible with causal fitness and if you want to be fit and have a sculpted body you must tweak your diet and lifestyle.

In the past we would become fat during the winter and be thin in the warmer seasons.
Becoming fat was not so unhealthy because it wasn't long term but for a certain period of food scarsity and harsh climate. That's why we're so good at gaining weight and so bad a losing it.
The body maximizes its fat gaining potential because in the past a food surplus high enough to make us obese was impossible and hence there was not risk that a predisposition to gain fat would worsen our health but protected us during the harsh seasons. On the other hand the body makes losing fat so slowly and hard because the harsh season was long and the body fat had to last.

That being said I'm not living there and I'm more interested nowadays in maintaining my hard-gained lean look and fitness all year around.

#15 Danny©

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE (phoenity @ Apr 15 2008, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where I have run into problems with the Paleo diet is when I started increasing the intensity back in March in preparation for racing which requires a lot more anaerobic efforts. I quickly found that the fruits and veggies just weren't cutting it during the recovery window after exercise so I had to start introducing higher carb meals so that I could recover well and replenish muscle glycogen stores.

Now my skin is back to where I started before the Paleo diet and I have to assume this is because of the high amount of carbs I have to ingest.


More likely it is because of the high-inflammation, increased oxidative damage, increased IGF-1, increase catecholamines, increased free testosterone from the sudden bout of intensity and or calories.


#16 Glennart

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (phoenity @ Apr 15 2008, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now my skin is back to where I started before the Paleo diet and I have to assume this is because of the high amount of carbs I have to ingest.


What's your carb source for your feeds?

I would recommend potatoes, white rice or maple syrup.



#17 AltaPGT

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 06:48 PM

Glennart what makes you recommend those?

#18 Danny©

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:03 PM

If you consume maple syrup make sure it's organic, since the fake maple syrup is a terrible food.

#19 dancedd

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:28 PM

QUOTE (Danny© @ Apr 15 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That being said I'm not living there and I'm more interested nowadays in maintaining my hard-gained lean look and fitness all year around.



So you always eat the same way to achieve your lean low body fat% body? As you mentioned in the past:Lots of veggies with every meal, a protein source and a carb source (not refined) and a little portion of fat sources like nuts and oils. And so u simply reduce the total calories if you want to be further sculpted? Sorry I am asking you this again but how many hours a week do u spend on exercise? I think you always mentioned that you are pretty successful at mantaining low body fat% for a long time. so i am curious (like others) what specifically u do. Grazie Danny eusa_angel.gif

#20 Danny©

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (dancedd @ Apr 15 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Danny© @ Apr 15 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That being said I'm not living there and I'm more interested nowadays in maintaining my hard-gained lean look and fitness all year around.



So you always eat the same way to achieve your lean low body fat% body? As you mentioned in the past:Lots of veggies with every meal, a protein source and a carb source (not refined) and a little portion of fat sources like nuts and oils. And so u simply reduce the total calories if you want to be further sculpted? Sorry I am asking you this again but how many hours a week do u spend on exercise? I think you always mentioned that you are pretty successful at mantaining low body fat% for a long time. so i am curious (like others) what specifically u do. Grazie Danny eusa_angel.gif


It depends whether I'm maintaining or trying to move forward.
I have several option I like if I'm trying to move forward (improve muscle tone)

Going into bulking (calories above maintenance) during the week and into cutting (calories below maintenance) during the week. Now this is effective enough but sometimes slow

In that case I use an approach that maximizes both results which is 6 weeks bulking and 2 weeks cutting.

Another approach I love from time to time is intermmitted fasting which allows a slow body recomposition. In drink only water from 11 pm to 3 pm and eat all my calories from 3 pm to 11 pm. This is a 16 hours fast and an 8 hours eating window.

I like to change, to prevent my body from adapting quickly and to add variety to whatever approach I use.

If I'm trying to add more definition and lose some of the fat I put on I either go into cutting during the week and bulking in the weekend or I do intermitted fasting with way less calories.

Naturally the less calories the less carbs and the more calories the more carbs.
This is something which I do consciously but something intrinsic in the caloric intake.

Proteins must always remain fixed in their requirement so you can't lower them.
Fats must always be present and you need to secure enough EFA so you can't lower them much. So when you go from an high calories to a low calories diet you must decrease carbs, since you'll also decrease the intensity of the training.

Likewise when you're trying to maximize results you want more caloreis and more carbs since you need more glycogen, more protein synthesis and more direct energy.

When I'm neither trying to add definition or improving tone I'm anywhere around 33/33/33 or 40/30/30 (fat/protein/carbs)

Weekly I'm spending around 15 hours exercizing