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DIM appears to be making my acne worse!


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#21 Murmur

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (won won @ Mar 5 2008, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just FYI, when I started DIM it seemed like my oil production decreased at first and then INCREASED again, and then there were a few days where I thought it wasn't helping me at all, and then I began seeing dramatic improvement. So don't give up.

I'm in the same place. Did you stick with the dosage that you started with during the tough times?


Yes I did. I adopted a "what the hell, I guess I'll just keep taking it" attitude and kind of forgot about it for a few days until I noticed that I was definitely seeing improvement.


Topicals:
Aspirin mask
Paula's Choice 8% AHA Gel (glycolic acid)

Diet:
Paleo-inspired diet with a good bit of slacking. Very little dairy. NO GRAINS except for rice and corn. Absolutely no gluten! Lots of green vegetable juice.

Supplements:
Bioidentical progesterone - 75 mg oral micronized, once daily (prescription).
Been slacking on my other supps lately but I should be taking probiotics, Vitamin D, magnesium (transdermal), and iodine.

Status:
Mostly clear with a great, lasting improvement in my overall health and wellbeing. My skin still gets a bit congested when I'm not careful with my diet, but I don't have active acne anymore. I'm now addressing red marks, some minor scarring, and overall skin texture.



#22 lollypolly

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (won won @ Mar 5 2008, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just FYI, when I started DIM it seemed like my oil production decreased at first and then INCREASED again, and then there were a few days where I thought it wasn't helping me at all, and then I began seeing dramatic improvement. So don't give up.

I'm in the same place. Did you stick with the dosage that you started with during the tough times?


Yes I did. I adopted a "what the hell, I guess I'll just keep taking it" attitude and kind of forgot about it for a few days until I noticed that I was definitely seeing improvement.


Thanks for that - did you break out though?
Would you recommend I continue with the four pills a day instead of 2?


#23 Murmur

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 03:09 PM

QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 5 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (won won @ Mar 5 2008, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just FYI, when I started DIM it seemed like my oil production decreased at first and then INCREASED again, and then there were a few days where I thought it wasn't helping me at all, and then I began seeing dramatic improvement. So don't give up.

I'm in the same place. Did you stick with the dosage that you started with during the tough times?


Yes I did. I adopted a "what the hell, I guess I'll just keep taking it" attitude and kind of forgot about it for a few days until I noticed that I was definitely seeing improvement.


Thanks for that - did you break out though?
Would you recommend I continue with the four pills a day instead of 2?


I didn't break out aggressively but I was feeling pretty unhappy with my skin. I was only taking one pill a day -- EstroBalance by Enzymatic Therapy.



Topicals:
Aspirin mask
Paula's Choice 8% AHA Gel (glycolic acid)

Diet:
Paleo-inspired diet with a good bit of slacking. Very little dairy. NO GRAINS except for rice and corn. Absolutely no gluten! Lots of green vegetable juice.

Supplements:
Bioidentical progesterone - 75 mg oral micronized, once daily (prescription).
Been slacking on my other supps lately but I should be taking probiotics, Vitamin D, magnesium (transdermal), and iodine.

Status:
Mostly clear with a great, lasting improvement in my overall health and wellbeing. My skin still gets a bit congested when I'm not careful with my diet, but I don't have active acne anymore. I'm now addressing red marks, some minor scarring, and overall skin texture.



#24 sie

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 03:19 PM

Lolly you should really consider the phase 2 and make sure your diet has it covered.

Plus you need amino acids because these things transport by way of protein.

Also you have to be getting plenty of fat because these things eliminate by way of fat pathway (bile etc)

As vegan you may be at a slight disadvantage on these few things.

Skim thru some of the DIM research thread to understand the phase 2 part of it and see what your options are. Definitely lower the dose and spread them out by about 5-6 hours, as DIM works for about 5 hours per dose. Most people have had success by taking with food. Also I think some things may interfere (called phase 1 inhibitors)...haven't compile a list or even coonfirmed the things that Ithink might, but I think grapefruit might.

read this, especially about the liver backlog

http://www.canarys-e...tion/detox.html

#25 lollypolly

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 03:21 PM

QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 5 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (won won @ Mar 5 2008, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Murmur @ Mar 5 2008, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just FYI, when I started DIM it seemed like my oil production decreased at first and then INCREASED again, and then there were a few days where I thought it wasn't helping me at all, and then I began seeing dramatic improvement. So don't give up.

I'm in the same place. Did you stick with the dosage that you started with during the tough times?


Yes I did. I adopted a "what the hell, I guess I'll just keep taking it" attitude and kind of forgot about it for a few days until I noticed that I was definitely seeing improvement.


Thanks for that - did you break out though?
Would you recommend I continue with the four pills a day instead of 2?


I didn't break out aggressively but I was feeling pretty unhappy with my skin. I was only taking one pill a day -- EstroBalance by Enzymatic Therapy.


Thanks for that, I'll stick to my original plan and see how it goes. Those pills you take are almost double the price of the one I am currently taking but maybe they are a better product.


#26 bran88

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 04:22 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 5 2008, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 5 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (pixxekurlz222 @ Mar 5 2008, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
How so? I believe the opposite. DIM will increase hormones sent to the liver while CDG address the livers ability to basically chelate the excess hormones out of the body. You will not get a bottleneck from phase 1 to phase 2 and less likely to suffer an IB or flu like symptoms, esp if you double, tripple or even take grams of DIM doses.


I totally agree. If you look around the internet this combo is recommended for estrogen dominance.


ok...but does someone who eats 6+ servings of veggies and fruits per day + a serving of supergreen powder per day really need calcium d-glucarate? For me personally, I know that I don't get enough cruiciferous veggies to give me the same action as DIM but I eat tons of fruits and veggies in general, so I just don't see a need to add CDG unless someone can explain why I might be deficient.


Its not that your ARE currently deficient its that you MIGHT be deficient if you use higher ammounts of DIM as explained above. Its beneficial for the whole liver not just binding in phase 2 detoxification. Meaning it can help get rid of excess used hromones and toxins. Its more then common for someone with acne to have a congested liver and its my view adding even a small amount of extra hormones to the liver tht DIM sends could trigger an outbreak or worse make you ill.


I think what you're saying makes total sense, and I agree that it is especially important for those seeing a bad IB to consider calcium d-glucarate or some other liver detoxifier...I guess it really depends on the individual and the dose of DIM they are taking. I'm hoping MSM plus my supergreen powder will be enough to keep me generally detoxed, but if I notice an IB when I start DIM I might consider calcium d-glucarate too.


#27 jodiat

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 03:36 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 5 2008, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 5 2008, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 5 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (pixxekurlz222 @ Mar 5 2008, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
How so? I believe the opposite. DIM will increase hormones sent to the liver while CDG address the livers ability to basically chelate the excess hormones out of the body. You will not get a bottleneck from phase 1 to phase 2 and less likely to suffer an IB or flu like symptoms, esp if you double, tripple or even take grams of DIM doses.


I totally agree. If you look around the internet this combo is recommended for estrogen dominance.


ok...but does someone who eats 6+ servings of veggies and fruits per day + a serving of supergreen powder per day really need calcium d-glucarate? For me personally, I know that I don't get enough cruiciferous veggies to give me the same action as DIM but I eat tons of fruits and veggies in general, so I just don't see a need to add CDG unless someone can explain why I might be deficient.


Its not that your ARE currently deficient its that you MIGHT be deficient if you use higher ammounts of DIM as explained above. Its beneficial for the whole liver not just binding in phase 2 detoxification. Meaning it can help get rid of excess used hromones and toxins. Its more then common for someone with acne to have a congested liver and its my view adding even a small amount of extra hormones to the liver tht DIM sends could trigger an outbreak or worse make you ill.


I think what you're saying makes total sense, and I agree that it is especially important for those seeing a bad IB to consider calcium d-glucarate or some other liver detoxifier...I guess it really depends on the individual and the dose of DIM they are taking. I'm hoping MSM plus my supergreen powder will be enough to keep me generally detoxed, but if I notice an IB when I start DIM I might consider calcium d-glucarate too.


My main point is really getting enough protein/sulpur with DIM. Some will have no problems at all with DIM because they might have 1)better functioning livers 2)Diet that supports liver detoxing 3) Using supplements that protect the liver.
When you get vegans/vegis on DIM I could see the problem being lack of protein for phase 2, but not a lack of sulphur! You need both, which is the problem so this means the right veg with the right ammount of proteins. (either supplemented or dietry wise, but both are key for the liver, the liver and bowels are the 2 key organs for healthy skin)

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#28 lollypolly

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 06:14 AM

Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...

#29 sie

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...


Can women on raw diets get pregnant?

#30 ayla

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:02 AM

QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...



Hmmm... That could be a key to your acne problems. Having your period helps regulate your hormones. Not having it, especially for a prolonged period, would really contribute to estrogen dominance.
It is like a reason that picks you up
And places you
Where you always wanted
To be.

*Moderator edit - Linking to websites other than Acne.org in your signature is not allowed*

#31 lollypolly

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:07 AM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 6 2008, 08:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...


Can women on raw diets get pregnant?


Yeah still ovulate just no blood

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 6 2008, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...



Hmmm... That could be a key to your acne problems. Having your period helps regulate your hormones. Not having it, especially for a prolonged period, would really contribute to estrogen dominance.


My skin got way better when I started eating raw. I've had acne for 14 years and only been raw about six months or so.

#32 ayla

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:40 AM

QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 6 2008, 08:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...


Can women on raw diets get pregnant?


Yeah still ovulate just no blood

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 6 2008, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...



Hmmm... That could be a key to your acne problems. Having your period helps regulate your hormones. Not having it, especially for a prolonged period, would really contribute to estrogen dominance.


My skin got way better when I started eating raw. I've had acne for 14 years and only been raw about six months or so.



I'm not talking about eating raw, I'm talking about not having menses.

Not actually bleeding every month is most assuredly a hormone problem. Could be because your underweight (?), or have endometriosis, PCOS, a myriad of things could cause it. Whatever the cause, your body is telling you there is a problem.

QUOTE
Amenorrhea means that a woman of childbearing age fails to menstruate.

A woman normally menstruates every 23 to 35 days. The cycle is regulated by the portion of the brain called the hypothalamus, which also controls body temperature, appetite and blood pressure. The hypothalamus stimulates the pituitary gland (located near the base of the brain) to release two hormones that regulate the female reproductive cycle: luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone. These hormones influence the production of the hormones estrogen and progesterone, which are responsible for cyclic changes in the lining of the uterus, including menstruation. In order for a woman to have regular menstrual cycles, her hypothalamus, pituitary gland, ovaries and uterus must be functioning properly. Her cervix and vagina must also have a normal anatomy for menstrual blood to pass through.

Amenorrhea is a symptom in itself. Any associated symptoms will depend on the problem that is causing the missed menstrual periods. For example, various forms of hormone imbalance may cause amenorrhea together with excess body and facial hair, acne, a lowering of the voice, an altered sex drive, breast milk secretions, weight gain, or several or all these symptoms.

It is like a reason that picks you up
And places you
Where you always wanted
To be.

*Moderator edit - Linking to websites other than Acne.org in your signature is not allowed*

#33 bran88

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 09:04 AM

Hey Lollypolly,
sorry if you've already answered this, but could you give a brief description of your acne history, what has it been like lately? I would agree with Ayla that getting your period (although unpleasant) is a really good sign that DIM is helping to balance your hormones...Given that you were so unbalanced to begin with (not having a real period for 6 months!) it doesn't surprise me at all that you would get an IB...your hormonal balance is changing drastically...definitely keep us updated though

#34 bran88

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 6 2008, 04:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 5 2008, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 5 2008, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 5 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (pixxekurlz222 @ Mar 5 2008, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
How so? I believe the opposite. DIM will increase hormones sent to the liver while CDG address the livers ability to basically chelate the excess hormones out of the body. You will not get a bottleneck from phase 1 to phase 2 and less likely to suffer an IB or flu like symptoms, esp if you double, tripple or even take grams of DIM doses.


I totally agree. If you look around the internet this combo is recommended for estrogen dominance.


ok...but does someone who eats 6+ servings of veggies and fruits per day + a serving of supergreen powder per day really need calcium d-glucarate? For me personally, I know that I don't get enough cruiciferous veggies to give me the same action as DIM but I eat tons of fruits and veggies in general, so I just don't see a need to add CDG unless someone can explain why I might be deficient.


Its not that your ARE currently deficient its that you MIGHT be deficient if you use higher ammounts of DIM as explained above. Its beneficial for the whole liver not just binding in phase 2 detoxification. Meaning it can help get rid of excess used hromones and toxins. Its more then common for someone with acne to have a congested liver and its my view adding even a small amount of extra hormones to the liver tht DIM sends could trigger an outbreak or worse make you ill.


I think what you're saying makes total sense, and I agree that it is especially important for those seeing a bad IB to consider calcium d-glucarate or some other liver detoxifier...I guess it really depends on the individual and the dose of DIM they are taking. I'm hoping MSM plus my supergreen powder will be enough to keep me generally detoxed, but if I notice an IB when I start DIM I might consider calcium d-glucarate too.


My main point is really getting enough protein/sulpur with DIM. Some will have no problems at all with DIM because they might have 1)better functioning livers 2)Diet that supports liver detoxing 3) Using supplements that protect the liver.
When you get vegans/vegis on DIM I could see the problem being lack of protein for phase 2, but not a lack of sulphur! You need both, which is the problem so this means the right veg with the right ammount of proteins. (either supplemented or dietry wise, but both are key for the liver, the liver and bowels are the 2 key organs for healthy skin)


Hey Jodiat,
I really appreciate all of your help! THis is good to know. I think I probably get enough protein from meat and fish and hopefully the MSM will cover my sulfur needs. It seems that calcium d-glucarate is a worthwhile supplement, though. I think I will invest in some in the future, but right now I just can't bring myself to buy any new supplements smile.gif My roomate says that my kitchen drawer looks like a medicine cabinet!

On another note, I was doing some reading (not sure about reliability of the source) and I guess there is some controversy over whether or not DIM can effectively remove xenoestrogens from the body. It will certainly create a more favorable ratio of good to bad estrogens, but it's not certain that it will remove xenoestrogens which could be another reason to supplement with CDG

On the other hand, if it's true that DIM doesn't remove xenoestrogens (and it might not be true, I only saw this in one place)...then maybe we shouldn't be expecting too many IB's with DIM? I don't know, what do you think?


#35 lollypolly

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 6 2008, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 6 2008, 08:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...


Can women on raw diets get pregnant?


Yeah still ovulate just no blood

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 6 2008, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...



Hmmm... That could be a key to your acne problems. Having your period helps regulate your hormones. Not having it, especially for a prolonged period, would really contribute to estrogen dominance.


My skin got way better when I started eating raw. I've had acne for 14 years and only been raw about six months or so.



I'm not talking about eating raw, I'm talking about not having menses.

Not actually bleeding every month is most assuredly a hormone problem. Could be because your underweight (?), or have endometriosis, PCOS, a myriad of things could cause it. Whatever the cause, your body is telling you there is a problem.

QUOTE
Amenorrhea means that a woman of childbearing age fails to menstruate.

A woman normally menstruates every 23 to 35 days. The cycle is regulated by the portion of the brain called the hypothalamus, which also controls body temperature, appetite and blood pressure. The hypothalamus stimulates the pituitary gland (located near the base of the brain) to release two hormones that regulate the female reproductive cycle: luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone. These hormones influence the production of the hormones estrogen and progesterone, which are responsible for cyclic changes in the lining of the uterus, including menstruation. In order for a woman to have regular menstrual cycles, her hypothalamus, pituitary gland, ovaries and uterus must be functioning properly. Her cervix and vagina must also have a normal anatomy for menstrual blood to pass through.

Amenorrhea is a symptom in itself. Any associated symptoms will depend on the problem that is causing the missed menstrual periods. For example, various forms of hormone imbalance may cause amenorrhea together with excess body and facial hair, acne, a lowering of the voice, an altered sex drive, breast milk secretions, weight gain, or several or all these symptoms.




It's very common for people who eat a high raw or all raw diet to stop bleeding. I may be slightly underweight according to BMI but that wouldn't explain why I'm now bleeding as I've not put weight on. I am listening to my body and I know it very well - in my mind the reason I'm now bleeding is because of these tablets - nothing else has changed.

If you want to read more about diet and bleeding visit this:

http://triviatriviat...l-bleeding.html



QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 6 2008, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Lollypolly,
sorry if you've already answered this, but could you give a brief description of your acne history, what has it been like lately? I would agree with Ayla that getting your period (although unpleasant) is a really good sign that DIM is helping to balance your hormones...Given that you were so unbalanced to begin with (not having a real period for 6 months!) it doesn't surprise me at all that you would get an IB...your hormonal balance is changing drastically...definitely keep us updated though


Thanks Bran, I'm hoping it's a temporary thing until it kicks in. However the no period is attributable to my eating and not any other problem - been tested for pcos etc.

We'll see what happens in a few days. Explains why i've been a bit pre-menstrual and moody - I haven't been like that in months and it's been BLISS!

My acne has varied from moderate to mild since i was 14 - now 28. Skin cleared up a lot when I went to raw with only hormonally period spots.

#36 jodiat

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 10:47 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 6 2008, 09:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Jodiat,
I really appreciate all of your help! THis is good to know. I think I probably get enough protein from meat and fish and hopefully the MSM will cover my sulfur needs. It seems that calcium d-glucarate is a worthwhile supplement, though. I think I will invest in some in the future, but right now I just can't bring myself to buy any new supplements smile.gif My roomate says that my kitchen drawer looks like a medicine cabinet!

On another note, I was doing some reading (not sure about reliability of the source) and I guess there is some controversy over whether or not DIM can effectively remove xenoestrogens from the body. It will certainly create a more favorable ratio of good to bad estrogens, but it's not certain that it will remove xenoestrogens which could be another reason to supplement with CDG

On the other hand, if it's true that DIM doesn't remove xenoestrogens (and it might not be true, I only saw this in one place)...then maybe we shouldn't be expecting too many IB's with DIM? I don't know, what do you think?


bran88: For yourself I do believe youll be ok but thats not to say you will, I used a high ammount of flax lignans and got ill and broken out really bad, its similar to DIM and this is why im warning incase others have done what I did. LOL you remind me of myself as my house is likea drug store atm! Ive got an A4 size paper listed full of supplements I take lol and its costly but ah well worth it.

Exposure to xenoestrogen. When a female embryo develops in the womb, 500,000 to 800,000 follicles are created in the embryo, each enclosing an immature ovum. These fragile ovarian follicles are extremely sensitive to the toxicity of environmental pollutants. When the mother is exposed to toxic chemicals that resemble estrogen in its molecular structure, she may experience no apparent damage outwardly. However the baby is more vulnerable to these toxins that may damage its ovarian follicles and make them dysfunctional. This will not be apparent until the baby reaches puberty some 10 to 15 years later, when symptoms of incomplete ovulation or insufficient progesterone production can be noted.

Petrochemical compounds found in general consumer products such as creams, lotions, soaps, shampoos, perfume, hair spray and room deodorizers. Such compounds often have chemical structures similar to estrogen and indeed act like estrogen. Other sources of xenoestrogen include car exhaust, petrochemically derived pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides; solvents and adhesives such as that those found in nail polish, paint removers, and glues; dry-cleaning chemicals; practically all plastics, industrial waste such as PCBs and dioxins, synthetic estrogens from urine of women taking HRT and birth control pills that is flushed down the toilet and eventually found its way into the food chain and back into the body. They are fat soluble and non-biodegradable.

_________________________________________________

Its my view that whats happening in the body and I might be wrong, but fromreading alot into it all here goes.

Estrogen and XenoEstrogen are very similar in their makeup, enough to the point the body thinks it is a natural Estrogen. These and body Estrogens now have an advantage over progesterone as they compete but need to be kept balanced! Now Estrogen wins by having larger numbers (even tho XenoEstrogen is unnatural but powerful). Whats happening is at hormone receptor sites in the body (and maybe more in the womb of females) the war between Progesterone and Estrogen +XenoEstrogen is taking place. What DIM is doing is coming along and giving Progesterone a helping hand. What Mr DIM does is act like an Estrogen. Now Mr DIM is weaker then Mr XenoEstrogen which is a good thing. The receptor sites now take up plenty of DIM instead of XenoEstrogen. (what yourdoing is replacing one evil with a less evil)*** Now XenoEstrogens are freely floating in the blood stream and end up at the liver.
IF the liver is congested then it cant deal effectivly with this excess increase in Hromones (not everyones liver is congested but could be congested enough if you alter hormones e.g.how some Bodybuilders who take steroids can get very bad acne is the same principle). If your liver cant deal with the excess hormones thrown at it, they will recycle them in the blood untill the livers less busy and can bind proteins and sulphur with them at a later date. Having dirty blood and blood filled with excess used hormones is why you might get IB with DIM and why you (like I have) might get ill if you increase DIM dose. (I was on 5grams of Flax lignans per day, being similar to DIM I got very ill and broken out like crazy...little did I know that DIM and flax are using the same methods and I didnt connect the dots untill the other day while reading about DIM)

*** Side Note: In Estrogen Dominance its progesterone cream thats the main method of attack. What this is doing is directly altering the hormone imbalance by giving the low amount of Progesterone a boost with natural progesterone (mainly in a cream form). This method isnt altering Estrogen directly like DIM but indirectly by increasing Progesterone. Whats happening here is as Estrogen and Progesterone are in a balancing war and increasing Progesterone will bash excess Estrogen of receptor sites. This is imo better then using DIM or Flax and gets staight to business by increasing whats needed, notsimply exchanging on for another (Unless DIM has other virtues, but DIM can increase progesterone levels too!)

**This is only important to people who have hormonal acne and is much more important for females then males. While male can and are ED its females who need to monitor this as their Mensas increase Estrogen monthly (and Progesterone) but this imbalance is one major reason for PMS.

You can have acne from candida, food allergens, poor blood sugar motbalism, stress and poor diet so dont jump into DIM and think itsa full cure. Its a nice piece of the puzzle but not the whole puzzle itself.

lolly: Very interesting link...bookmarked!
My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.

#37 bran88

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 11:33 AM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 6 2008, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 6 2008, 09:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Jodiat,
I really appreciate all of your help! THis is good to know. I think I probably get enough protein from meat and fish and hopefully the MSM will cover my sulfur needs. It seems that calcium d-glucarate is a worthwhile supplement, though. I think I will invest in some in the future, but right now I just can't bring myself to buy any new supplements smile.gif My roomate says that my kitchen drawer looks like a medicine cabinet!

On another note, I was doing some reading (not sure about reliability of the source) and I guess there is some controversy over whether or not DIM can effectively remove xenoestrogens from the body. It will certainly create a more favorable ratio of good to bad estrogens, but it's not certain that it will remove xenoestrogens which could be another reason to supplement with CDG

On the other hand, if it's true that DIM doesn't remove xenoestrogens (and it might not be true, I only saw this in one place)...then maybe we shouldn't be expecting too many IB's with DIM? I don't know, what do you think?


bran88: For yourself I do believe youll be ok but thats not to say you will, I used a high ammount of flax lignans and got ill and broken out really bad, its similar to DIM and this is why im warning incase others have done what I did. LOL you remind me of myself as my house is likea drug store atm! Ive got an A4 size paper listed full of supplements I take lol and its costly but ah well worth it.

Exposure to xenoestrogen. When a female embryo develops in the womb, 500,000 to 800,000 follicles are created in the embryo, each enclosing an immature ovum. These fragile ovarian follicles are extremely sensitive to the toxicity of environmental pollutants. When the mother is exposed to toxic chemicals that resemble estrogen in its molecular structure, she may experience no apparent damage outwardly. However the baby is more vulnerable to these toxins that may damage its ovarian follicles and make them dysfunctional. This will not be apparent until the baby reaches puberty some 10 to 15 years later, when symptoms of incomplete ovulation or insufficient progesterone production can be noted.

Petrochemical compounds found in general consumer products such as creams, lotions, soaps, shampoos, perfume, hair spray and room deodorizers. Such compounds often have chemical structures similar to estrogen and indeed act like estrogen. Other sources of xenoestrogen include car exhaust, petrochemically derived pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides; solvents and adhesives such as that those found in nail polish, paint removers, and glues; dry-cleaning chemicals; practically all plastics, industrial waste such as PCBs and dioxins, synthetic estrogens from urine of women taking HRT and birth control pills that is flushed down the toilet and eventually found its way into the food chain and back into the body. They are fat soluble and non-biodegradable.

_________________________________________________

Its my view that whats happening in the body and I might be wrong, but fromreading alot into it all here goes.

Estrogen and XenoEstrogen are very similar in their makeup, enough to the point the body thinks it is a natural Estrogen. These and body Estrogens now have an advantage over progesterone as they compete but need to be kept balanced! Now Estrogen wins by having larger numbers (even tho XenoEstrogen is unnatural but powerful). Whats happening is at hormone receptor sites in the body (and maybe more in the womb of females) the war between Progesterone and Estrogen +XenoEstrogen is taking place. What DIM is doing is coming along and giving Progesterone a helping hand. What Mr DIM does is act like an Estrogen. Now Mr DIM is weaker then Mr XenoEstrogen which is a good thing. The receptor sites now take up plenty of DIM instead of XenoEstrogen. (what yourdoing is replacing one evil with a less evil)*** Now XenoEstrogens are freely floating in the blood stream and end up at the liver.
IF the liver is congested then it cant deal effectivly with this excess increase in Hromones (not everyones liver is congested but could be congested enough if you alter hormones e.g.how some Bodybuilders who take steroids can get very bad acne is the same principle). If your liver cant deal with the excess hormones thrown at it, they will recycle them in the blood untill the livers less busy and can bind proteins and sulphur with them at a later date. Having dirty blood and blood filled with excess used hormones is why you might get IB with DIM and why you (like I have) might get ill if you increase DIM dose. (I was on 5grams of Flax lignans per day, being similar to DIM I got very ill and broken out like crazy...little did I know that DIM and flax are using the same methods and I didnt connect the dots untill the other day while reading about DIM)

*** Side Note: In Estrogen Dominance its progesterone cream thats the main method of attack. What this is doing is directly altering the hormone imbalance by giving the low amount of Progesterone a boost with natural progesterone (mainly in a cream form). This method isnt altering Estrogen directly like DIM but indirectly by increasing Progesterone. Whats happening here is as Estrogen and Progesterone are in a balancing war and increasing Progesterone will bash excess Estrogen of receptor sites. This is imo better then using DIM or Flax and gets staight to business by increasing whats needed, notsimply exchanging on for another (Unless DIM has other virtues, but DIM can increase progesterone levels too!)

**This is only important to people who have hormonal acne and is much more important for females then males. While male can and are ED its females who need to monitor this as their Mensas increase Estrogen monthly (and Progesterone) but this imbalance is one major reason for PMS.

You can have acne from candida, food allergens, poor blood sugar motbalism, stress and poor diet so dont jump into DIM and think itsa full cure. Its a nice piece of the puzzle but not the whole puzzle itself.

lolly: Very interesting link...bookmarked!


Thanks Jodiat! That's some very useful info...I totally agree that acne can have many different causes (and often multiple causes within a person) and that no one supplement is a miracle cure...I think that part of my problem is hormonal since I do have fibrocysts (I know, more than you needed to know!) but I think that's a big sign that my estrogen is out of wack...I also never had normal periods growing up, so the part you mentioned about xenoestrogens being able to disrupt the estrogen progesterone balance in the womb is really enlightening! I think I will add in CDG if I can find it at whole foods, I suppose one more bottle in my "medicine cabinet" couldn't hurt smile.gif Are you taking CDG right now? How is everything going for you? My DIM is supposed to arrive today, so we'll see how things go for me, wish me luck smile.gif

#38 bran88

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 11:39 AM

QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 6 2008, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 6 2008, 08:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...


Can women on raw diets get pregnant?


Yeah still ovulate just no blood

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 6 2008, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (lollypolly @ Mar 6 2008, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another thing I've experienced whilst taking DIM...

I don't normally get periods - a lot of women on raw diets lose their period or if they get them they are really light and last maybe half a day. ANYWAY lo and behold now I have a full blown period. That's got to be down to the DIM. Pesky DIM. I'm not enjoying it at all sad.gif

Another week then I'll see where I'm at...



Hmmm... That could be a key to your acne problems. Having your period helps regulate your hormones. Not having it, especially for a prolonged period, would really contribute to estrogen dominance.


My skin got way better when I started eating raw. I've had acne for 14 years and only been raw about six months or so.



I'm not talking about eating raw, I'm talking about not having menses.

Not actually bleeding every month is most assuredly a hormone problem. Could be because your underweight (?), or have endometriosis, PCOS, a myriad of things could cause it. Whatever the cause, your body is telling you there is a problem.

QUOTE
Amenorrhea means that a woman of childbearing age fails to menstruate.

A woman normally menstruates every 23 to 35 days. The cycle is regulated by the portion of the brain called the hypothalamus, which also controls body temperature, appetite and blood pressure. The hypothalamus stimulates the pituitary gland (located near the base of the brain) to release two hormones that regulate the female reproductive cycle: luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone. These hormones influence the production of the hormones estrogen and progesterone, which are responsible for cyclic changes in the lining of the uterus, including menstruation. In order for a woman to have regular menstrual cycles, her hypothalamus, pituitary gland, ovaries and uterus must be functioning properly. Her cervix and vagina must also have a normal anatomy for menstrual blood to pass through.

Amenorrhea is a symptom in itself. Any associated symptoms will depend on the problem that is causing the missed menstrual periods. For example, various forms of hormone imbalance may cause amenorrhea together with excess body and facial hair, acne, a lowering of the voice, an altered sex drive, breast milk secretions, weight gain, or several or all these symptoms.




It's very common for people who eat a high raw or all raw diet to stop bleeding. I may be slightly underweight according to BMI but that wouldn't explain why I'm now bleeding as I've not put weight on. I am listening to my body and I know it very well - in my mind the reason I'm now bleeding is because of these tablets - nothing else has changed.

If you want to read more about diet and bleeding visit this:

http://triviatriviat...l-bleeding.html



QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 6 2008, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Lollypolly,
sorry if you've already answered this, but could you give a brief description of your acne history, what has it been like lately? I would agree with Ayla that getting your period (although unpleasant) is a really good sign that DIM is helping to balance your hormones...Given that you were so unbalanced to begin with (not having a real period for 6 months!) it doesn't surprise me at all that you would get an IB...your hormonal balance is changing drastically...definitely keep us updated though


Thanks Bran, I'm hoping it's a temporary thing until it kicks in. However the no period is attributable to my eating and not any other problem - been tested for pcos etc.

We'll see what happens in a few days. Explains why i've been a bit pre-menstrual and moody - I haven't been like that in months and it's been BLISS!

My acne has varied from moderate to mild since i was 14 - now 28. Skin cleared up a lot when I went to raw with only hormonally period spots.


wow maybe there's something to that raw diet thing ;-) I think you'll know about the DIM within a couple of weeks, I don't think an IB should take longer than that. Make sure you're getting plenty of water and rest and maybe as Jodiat and others suggested consider Taurine or CDG? A few spots pre-period though really isn't so bad, good for you and your diet! If the DIM doesn't work for you, maybe you can look into Vitex (chasteberry)...Its a natural herb that also helps to balance hormones, but it works very gently. It has helped me a lot with monthly regularity and also to suppress androgens (I think), although it hasn't worked to clear my acne (but I started out with moderate/severe acne, so maybe combined with your diet it could work for you?) ANyway, i have my fingers crossed for you smile.gif


#39 lollypolly

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 11:52 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 6 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wow maybe there's something to that raw diet thing ;-) I think you'll know about the DIM within a couple of weeks, I don't think an IB should take longer than that. Make sure you're getting plenty of water and rest and maybe as Jodiat and others suggested consider Taurine or CDG? A few spots pre-period though really isn't so bad, good for you and your diet! If the DIM doesn't work for you, maybe you can look into Vitex (chasteberry)...Its a natural herb that also helps to balance hormones, but it works very gently. It has helped me a lot with monthly regularity and also to suppress androgens (I think), although it hasn't worked to clear my acne (but I started out with moderate/severe acne, so maybe combined with your diet it could work for you?) ANyway, i have my fingers crossed for you smile.gif


How lovely, thanks for that. Yeah I'm not bothered too much about the spots more the period lol!

I've heard of chasteberry but not ever tried it. Maca is also meant to be good for balancing hormones. I'm off to make a green smoothie with a shovel full of the stuff smile.gif

#40 JPizzle

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 12:31 PM

do i have to take this with food or can i just have it with water?