139 replies to this topic

[merf]

Hi guys,
I'm really confused and hope someone can help me! I have no idea whether I am estrogen or androgen dominant! I seem to have symptoms of both...I have a lot of the estrogen dominant symptoms (fibrocysts, mood swings, bloating at certain times of the month, irregular periods), but I do have one major androgen dominance symptom (I think this is androgen dominance) very oily skin/hair...my oil has decreased over the last couple of months through diet and skin care etc...BUT now I'm kind of worried about taking DIM. I've read that it can make androgen dominance worse and women who think they may be androgen dominant should not take it! I wonder if this is one reason it makes some people break out? If you are really estrogen dominant, DIM may help but if you are androgen dominant (even with some symptoms of elevated estrgoen) maybe it makes your acne worse? I read that those with PCOS shouldn't take DIM...what do you guys think?

I;m only taking 1 nature's way per day...but do you guys know of something else I can take that will not allow my androgens get out of control? Would CDG work for that? HELP!

It sounds to me that progesterone cream would be a better bet for you. It's a general hormone balancer.

[ryudoadema]

I wonder if using DIM topically may work. Other things like egcg, zinc, b5, niacin etc, all have either dht inhibiting effects or anti-inflammatory action and have been shown to do the same thing where it's applied except targeted and faster. Egcg for example, must be taken in very large doses to reach the cells of the epidermis, but work almost immediately with only a 2 or 3% topical concentration.

For those that don't have an actual hormonal problem and just an over-sensitivity to dht, estrogens or other hormones, or who doesn't want to mess around with them- this could be a far more viable not to mention economical approach.

I'm thinkin of crackin open one of my NW DIM's and mixing it with some of my moisturizer at say, 5% and using that mixture on one side of my face and the normal one on the other (so long as it doesnt turn super green-although some anti-redness creams use a green tint..lol). I'd probably test it on my arm or something first though....just a thought

[jodiat]

I wonder if using DIM topically may work. Other things like egcg, zinc, b5, niacin etc, all have either dht inhibiting effects or anti-inflammatory action and have been shown to do the same thing where it's applied except targeted and faster. Egcg for example, must be taken in very large doses to reach the cells of the epidermis, but work almost immediately with only a 2 or 3% topical concentration.

For those that don't have an actual hormonal problem and just an over-sensitivity to dht, estrogens or other hormones, or who doesn't want to mess around with them- this could be a far more viable not to mention economical approach.

I'm thinkin of crackin open one of my NW DIM's and mixing it with some of my moisturizer at say, 5% and using that mixture on one side of my face and the normal one on the other (so long as it doesnt turn super green-although some anti-redness creams use a green tint..lol). I'd probably test it on my arm or something first though....just a thought

Maybe Progesterone cream is worth looking into?

[bran88]

Sie: Im glad your stuffs arrived. That would be ironic but have some faith and get dome CDG or/and Taurine and take more of this then DIM and youll be on your way to testing it out.

Merf: Broken record or not Im really interested in this even if it just helps my fiancee and not me in the slightest, I love learning about the body. You do sound like you have it figured out with what you say you take so Im not worried over you as much as new people jmping in the deep end and not understanding how it works and why it goes wrong.

Daniell: I dont want to offend but spend a little more tme reading this thread because I think what youve said lacks understanding of what DIMs role is and how CDG helps.

1. Yes Its ok to take DIM and CDG with Taurine together...Id advocate to anyone playing with hormonal balance.
2. Yes taking larger ammounts in theory could break you out. To explain again. Once the hormones (released by DIM) is binded in phase 2 of liver detoxifying (horomone + CDG/Taurine) it has to then be expelled from the body. Its the job of the Kidneys and Bowels now. Drinking more water helps and having more bowel movements help. To address bowel movements add Fibre, Aloe vera and L-Glutamine.
3. You can breakout still breakout from:

Candida/Mold overgrowth
Stress
Parasites
Enviornment
Poor diet
Poor bowel transit times and congested liver
Lack of Omegas
Poor blood sugar motabalism

Ban88: From what ive read its likely you are Estrogen dominant but if your female its more of a problem yet males are in just as much danger of being ED from diet, drugs and environment. The rest of what yu are saying im going to research more myself to fully understand. Ill add my input at a later date, maybe tomorrow and ill spend time tonight reading it up.

Hey Jodiat,
I'm 99% sure estrogen dominance is an issue for me, but is it possible to have both excess estrogen and excess androgens? Can excess oil come from something else besides androgens? I think I will stick with 1 natures way dim pill for now and watch my oiliness and acne very closely...I'm also thinking I'll add CDG this week. Thanks for your help How is it going for you?

[jodiat]

Sie: Im glad your stuffs arrived. That would be ironic but have some faith and get dome CDG or/and Taurine and take more of this then DIM and youll be on your way to testing it out.

Merf: Broken record or not Im really interested in this even if it just helps my fiancee and not me in the slightest, I love learning about the body. You do sound like you have it figured out with what you say you take so Im not worried over you as much as new people jmping in the deep end and not understanding how it works and why it goes wrong.

Daniell: I dont want to offend but spend a little more tme reading this thread because I think what youve said lacks understanding of what DIMs role is and how CDG helps.

1. Yes Its ok to take DIM and CDG with Taurine together...Id advocate to anyone playing with hormonal balance.
2. Yes taking larger ammounts in theory could break you out. To explain again. Once the hormones (released by DIM) is binded in phase 2 of liver detoxifying (horomone + CDG/Taurine) it has to then be expelled from the body. Its the job of the Kidneys and Bowels now. Drinking more water helps and having more bowel movements help. To address bowel movements add Fibre, Aloe vera and L-Glutamine.
3. You can breakout still breakout from:

Candida/Mold overgrowth
Stress
Parasites
Enviornment
Poor diet
Poor bowel transit times and congested liver
Lack of Omegas
Poor blood sugar motabalism

Ban88: From what ive read its likely you are Estrogen dominant but if your female its more of a problem yet males are in just as much danger of being ED from diet, drugs and environment. The rest of what yu are saying im going to research more myself to fully understand. Ill add my input at a later date, maybe tomorrow and ill spend time tonight reading it up.

Hey Jodiat,
I'm 99% sure estrogen dominance is an issue for me, but is it possible to have both excess estrogen and excess androgens? Can excess oil come from something else besides androgens? I think I will stick with 1 natures way dim pill for now and watch my oiliness and acne very closely...I'm also thinking I'll add CDG this week. Thanks for your help How is it going for you?

If your so sure then its worth doing. Hmm I think you can be ED and have excess androgens but im not 100% sure

[firefly3]

Think ive worked somthing out.

I can see why using DIM, flax seed etc and progesterone can break people out.

Once you flush out xenoestrogens your basically increasing toxins in the body and if your liver cant expel used hormones fast enough you will get more acne. (this explains why im ill after using 5grams of flax seed lignans in the last week! and why im breaking out from using it)

This also explains why using Calcium D-gluconate and liver building/cleansing herbs and high fiber diets help as this flushes out used hormones faster!

This also links in candida into the equation as candida and leaky gut goes hand in hand. Leaky gut also can leak used hormones back into your system. Thus your increasing how much hormones are in the body simply because the bowels are not working well and leading to an increase in cancer, esp women as they go up and down each month with body estrogen and this explains why women get PMS.

I think anyone on DIM,Soya, flax, I3C should indefinatly take anything to increase liver detoxification. Including Calcium D-gluconate any liver building/cleansing herbs and anything to increase phase 2 of liver detoxifiation...and guess what some of these are...

TAURINE
GLUTAMINE
GLUTATHIONE
GLYCINE
TAURINE
CYSTEINE
SULPHUR PHYTOCHEMICALS (GARLIC,CABBAGE,BROCCOLI,ONIONS,LEAKS,CAULIFLOWERS,BRUSSEL SPROUTS)
N.A.C
METHIONINE
CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE
QUERCETIN
LIPOLIC ACID

Well this is all making sense. Thing is I knew about this before but I didnt undestand it how I do now.

If you dont have enough raw material in phase 2 detoxification of the liver then it cant deal with the excess hormones that DIM,flax,I3C dispalce creating xenoestrogens.

excellent post and list

I am looking into Glutathione at the moment and any info on it would be helpful.

[sie]

Glutathione will have to be sublingual or nasal spray or maybe there is transdermal? because it breaks down in the digestive system and prob. won't ever make it out of the dig. tract in any usable form.

[sie]

Hey ev'body. Just came off a holiday weekend (niiiice) and am still having rolling power blackouts in the whole country so I will only be posting limited amount.

As for me, I started DIM+CDG+Taurine Friday night. I had thought I would start with only DIM and taurine, I decide to go for it all, since I had been out in the god-awful pollution Friday and felt like I need to get started on the CDG for reasons beyond skin (uh, cancer).

Anyway, I wasn't gonna say how it was going til I saw results or no results, but might as well just say that there seems to be something magical about the 3rd day. Today (morning after the 3rd full day) was definitely improved in texture, redness, and healing.

I also experienced the grogginess and would have slept great the past few days if my family hadn't had other ideas (intermittent wakings at 3am and 5am due to cat and kid). Definitely lucid dreaming too. Some mild head discomfort (not really a headache) that felt like something was going on in my body--only the first 2 days. I have also been downing 100% pure cranberry juice (whew, tart!) to support my kidneys. I am doing this because I am afraid of kidney stones for other reasons (calcium) but thought it couldn't hurt this process.

Anyway, I've been trying to work something out on DIM dosage and have posted it in some of the threads where people are reporting bad results (I think dosage may be a culprit). Please take a look and see what you think. I don't know what the magic is in taurine. Obviously it is a phase 2 supporting factor and it has the properties that Lili promotes regarding sugar metabolism, etc...but it also has osmoregulatory effects (something that original drew me to it and Lili's posts, but in relation to the immune system). http://www.mgwater.c....shtml#cellular

So I think DIM has some anti-androgen, excess/exo estrogen removal, immune function support, anti inflammatory properties that are all very much in need to those with acne. I think taurine helps with the phase 2 removal and also with the immune function. I think most people agree that when you have acne you generally have a hyperactive immune system that gets too gung ho over the least little clogged+bacteria-residing pore and causes swelling and redness that doesn't necessarily occur in those without acne. People without acne still hav p.acn bacteria on their face and still get minorly clogged pores but their immune systems doesn't attack it so veraciously. Further, it is possible that people with acne have a gung ho initial immune response (neutrophils) with a sluggish clean up crew (macrophages), causing long healing times and break-outs over top of or near old breakouts. I think the osmoregulatory function of taurine may help with healing...to help get some of the broken up particles that macrophages need to "digest" in and out easily. I know this is taking things in a totally different direction, but I think it is ALL of these things. I'm just trying to place the reason the additional taurine seems to help and it makes sense. I think it *enhances* the immuno properties of DIM (obviously there are immuno properties, just look at activamune's website). Its the reason why people say "I got 2 new whiteheads today but they were really minor and are already starting to go away."

Anyway, sorry this is train-of-thought and disjointed and I won't go on much longer...but I think there's alot of benefits here and I'll keep you posted on my ideas (electricity permitting ).

[eric_in_va]

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.

It doesn't matter that much, because you're right that it helps balance the estrogen to progesterone ratio, which is the important thing... BUT no, DIM is not a phytoestrogen.

Unlike soy isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, DIM is not an estrogen mimic or "phytoestrogen" and has no inherent estrogenic activity. DIM acts to balance the natural response to estrogen by adjusting the activity of metabolic cytochrome enzymes and specialized estrogen receptor molecules.

http://www.dimfaq.co...te/articles.htm

Personally I think DIM (from what I've read) is much better than phytoestrogens like flax seeds or soy isoflavones. Phytoestrogens break me out like crazy, and I don't personally think that it's because there is something wrong with my liver as I've done a lot of liver cleansing and I've eaten very well for years now. I just think phytoestrogens are evil. I don't think they necessarily help balance estrogen/progesterone.

wait, why are phytoestrogens bad?

50mg of flax lignans a day would break you out like crazy???

[eric_in_va]

bump

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.

It doesn't matter that much, because you're right that it helps balance the estrogen to progesterone ratio, which is the important thing... BUT no, DIM is not a phytoestrogen.

Unlike soy isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, DIM is not an estrogen mimic or "phytoestrogen" and has no inherent estrogenic activity. DIM acts to balance the natural response to estrogen by adjusting the activity of metabolic cytochrome enzymes and specialized estrogen receptor molecules.

http://www.dimfaq.co...te/articles.htm

Personally I think DIM (from what I've read) is much better than phytoestrogens like flax seeds or soy isoflavones. Phytoestrogens break me out like crazy, and I don't personally think that it's because there is something wrong with my liver as I've done a lot of liver cleansing and I've eaten very well for years now. I just think phytoestrogens are evil. I don't think they necessarily help balance estrogen/progesterone.

wait, why are phytoestrogens bad?

50mg of flax lignans a day would break you out like crazy???

[alternativista]

Bump. Because it contains tons of valuable info about the liver, estrogen dominance, bad estrogens, etc.

I'm not suggesting that you take DIM. Just read.

Also, this one is good for the discussion on diet's effect on PMS and menstruation. We aren't meant to suffer like so many women do every month. Not at all, really.
http://www.acne.org/...a....html&st=80

[Wally]

Anyone know of/have progress updates?

[theknife]

excuse me an update is definitely in order~!
There was some great discussions in this thread, though I fear the lack of reporting is that no amazing results have occurred. Still, would love to hear?

[alternativista]

excuse me an update is definitely in order~!
There was some great discussions in this thread, though I fear the lack of reporting is that no amazing results have occurred. Still, would love to hear?

Because I think most people get better results from diet habits and/or boosting progesterone via cream or chasteberry vitex than from flushing estrogen via DIM. That seems to only help temporarily if at all.

But yes, while I don't recommend DIM, I do recommend people read the very good information in this thread.

[Princess87]

excuse me an update is definitely in order~!
There was some great discussions in this thread, though I fear the lack of reporting is that no amazing results have occurred. Still, would love to hear?

Because I think most people get better results from diet habits and/or boosting progesterone via cream or chasteberry vitex than from flushing estrogen via DIM. That seems to only help temporarily if at all.

But yes, while I don't recommend DIM, I do recommend people read the very good information in this thread.

This DIM thing sounded perfect so why have you chosen to NOT recommend it?? I'm confused. I hope this thread hasn't died out...it was one of the most helpful here.

Edited by Princess87, 07 March 2011 - 02:52 PM.

[alternativista]

This DIM thing sounded perfect so why have you chosen to NOT recommend it?? I'm confused. I hope this thread hasn't died out...it was one of the most helpful here.

Because it's better to eat and live right to help your body balance hormones itself than to experiment in altering your hormones. It's very difficult to know what's actually going on with your hormones. This is why gyno's prescribe birth control pretty much by trial and error.

And because almost everyone who tried it decided to drop it.

But, yes, it is a very informative thread. One of the best. But because of the other info, not the DIM.

[sirios]

What an interesting topic.

I'm taking I3C now. I have been taking it for 3 months 400 mg a day with no success so far.

[MissSac17]

I wanted to bump this thread again because it is just soo interesting to read all these posts. I have skimmed through it but will read more in depth later. I am intrigued by DIM and what it can do, but it seems there are confilcting views about taking it.

[alternativista]

You should also read this one: http://www.acne.org/...-my-acne-worse/

 

And to add to the discussion in these two threads about whether we really should be hemorrhaging blood every month as   considered normal, which I believe it is not.  It just doesn't make any sense to me. And I found and posted some anthropoligcal observances of  a 'primative' culture or two in which they found few complaints of menstrual problems.

 

See this post for some interesting discussion and an explanation on why it happens after ovulation and failure to conceive:

http://www.vegsource...ages/19651.html
http://triviatriviat...l-bleeding.html

 

Ovulation, in the healthy woman, occurs without menstruation. Menstruation occuring coincident with ovulation is not normal. Weak muscles in the abdominal area contribute to the haemorrhage condition that the menstruating woman experiences monthly. After the woman ovulates, there is a thickening of the mucus membrane lining the uterus, in preparation for conception. When conception does not occur, this thickened membrane is sloughed off. In the weak and toxic woman, this sloughing is accompanied by a haemorrhage of the small capillaries that have built up behind this mucous membrane, again in preparation for conception. In the healthy woman the mucous lining is passed out as a very slight mucus discharge. The many fine capillaries diminish in number until preparation is again made for conception after normal ovulation. Due to a weakness of the capillary walls and excessive inflammation, the toxic woman experiences a haemorrhage of the uterus, a pathological condition, which, because of its near universality, she mistakes as part of the normal function of ovulation.

 

These posts are from raw vegan dieters and apparently it's pretty common for them to bleed so they would obviously be seeking an explanation that shows they are right that raw veganism is how humans should eat.  

 

But, there's still that bit about how it just plain doesn't make any sense to drip blood all over the jungle and savannah when there are so many predators about.  And women who spend up to a week in pain every 28 days likely wouldn't survive our hunter gatherer days.  It think this is another one of those things we've come to believe is normal, but really isn't. Or shouldn't be. Like many of the diseases of old age.  Which we now get younger and younger.

Edited by alternativista, 04 April 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[MissSac17]

You should also read this one: http://www.acne.org/...-my-acne-worse/

 

And to add to the discussion in these two threads about whether we really should be hemorrhaging blood every month as   considered normal, which I believe it is not.  It just doesn't make any sense to me. And I found and posted some anthropoligcal observances of  a 'primative' culture or two in which they found few complaints of menstrual problems.

 

See this post for some interesting discussion and an explanation on why it happens after ovulation and failure to conceive:

http://www.vegsource...ages/19651.html
http://triviatriviat...l-bleeding.html

 

Ovulation, in the healthy woman, occurs without menstruation. Menstruation occuring coincident with ovulation is not normal. Weak muscles in the abdominal area contribute to the haemorrhage condition that the menstruating woman experiences monthly. After the woman ovulates, there is a thickening of the mucus membrane lining the uterus, in preparation for conception. When conception does not occur, this thickened membrane is sloughed off. In the weak and toxic woman, this sloughing is accompanied by a haemorrhage of the small capillaries that have built up behind this mucous membrane, again in preparation for conception. In the healthy woman the mucous lining is passed out as a very slight mucus discharge. The many fine capillaries diminish in number until preparation is again made for conception after normal ovulation. Due to a weakness of the capillary walls and excessive inflammation, the toxic woman experiences a haemorrhage of the uterus, a pathological condition, which, because of its near universality, she mistakes as part of the normal function of ovulation.

 

These posts are from raw vegan dieters and apparently it's pretty common for them to bleed so they would obviously be seeking an explanation that shows they are right that raw veganism is how humans should eat.  

 

But, there's still that bit about how it just plain doesn't make any sense to drip blood all over the jungle and savannah when there are so many predators about.  And women who spend up to a week in pain every 28 days likely wouldn't survive our hunter gatherer days.  It think this is another one of those things we've come to believe is normal, but really isn't. Or shouldn't be. Like many of the diseases of old age.  Which we now get younger and younger.

Thank's alternavista! You are incredibly knowledgable

I understand what you are saying about the bleeding and how it would be an ineffective survival mechanism. I understand, too, that years ago..perhaps in the 1940's/50's women started menstruating at around 16/17 years of ago but as the industrial revolution came about women started menstruating younger, much younger like 12/13. It makes you think a bit.

I started menstruating at 12 and actually started getting spots at around 11. I had really heavy periods at first but my mum made me go on the BCP at 15 when I had a bf - obviously on hindsight NOW I wish I hadn't, since I think its gave me worse problems. Im at a stage right now wether to go on the BCP again or not, since I do feel my hormones are out of whack definately.