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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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#81 kaleidoscope

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 07:26 AM

QUOTE (merf @ Mar 3 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i've not heard of flax lignans, but i put milled flax seed in my food. same thing???


Yep, same thing. Flax seeds naturally contain lignans.

#82 merf

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 07:47 AM

QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 4 2008, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (merf @ Mar 3 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i've not heard of flax lignans, but i put milled flax seed in my food. same thing???


Yep, same thing. Flax seeds naturally contain lignans.


Awesome, I've just started eating them (put them in smoothies, soups, and sauces) for overall health, but didn't know they helped with acne. Sweet!

#83 kaleidoscope

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 07:59 AM

QUOTE (merf @ Mar 4 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 4 2008, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (merf @ Mar 3 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i've not heard of flax lignans, but i put milled flax seed in my food. same thing???


Yep, same thing. Flax seeds naturally contain lignans.


Awesome, I've just started eating them (put them in smoothies, soups, and sauces) for overall health, but didn't know they helped with acne. Sweet!


Well, that's debatable! They are actually the worst thing for my skin (anything with phytoestrogens)! However, they could and do help some people... It just all depends on your particular hormone levels I guess. Just watch out, if you start breaking out on the lower half of your face, it's probably the flax seeds.


#84 alternativista

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 09:16 AM

There are several links to articles and reasarch on Estrogen dominance here if anyone wants to look into them.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/estrogen.html



#85 bran88

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 09:43 AM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 4 2008, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 3 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 3 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.


It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.


Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...


This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.


valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer


See ive been on 5Grams of Flax lignans for a week(alot i know). Ive broken out like crazy and gotten a cold (first time in 4 years!). I never knew it increased phase one untill the past few days!

Sebrum dried almost over night, I did notice this.

I think anyone who uses ALOT of DIM, I3C, Soya, flax lignans to alter Estrogen motabolism or anyone who simply uses DIM or the likes and breaks out should use any or a bunch of the phase two binders. Your right alot are helping p.2 without knowing i.e. the whole Taurine debate! Thing to realise is if you change phase one without phase two you get a bottleneck of toxins trying to get out and these will just be re-absorbed if not expelled (binded to a sulphur or protein) fast enough, causing sickness, flu like symptoms and an increase in acne.


Hi Jodiat,
I'm not sure that's a good sign...flax is a definite phytoestrogen, there is much controversy on how phytoestrogens work in the body. People generally believe that phytoestrogens compete with estrogens at the receptor sites as you explained earlier. However, whether the general effect is to increase or decrease estrogenic activity is up for debate. It seems that the effect in pre-menopausal women is to decrease estrogenic activity since we have a lot of strong natural estrogens BUT phytoestrogens may INCREASE estrogenic activity in post menopausal women who no longer produce much natural estrogen...I would expect that males are more akin to post menopausal women in terms of estrogen production and therefore it might not be such a great idea for you to take such a high dose of flax. Just a thought...


yo,
Yeah what you say is very true aswell. Using flax,soya,I3C,DIM is like HRT which can be a good thing...esp women it seems will have greater benefit of this. That said men are just as likely to be Estrogen dominant but its interesting and a very good point to compare men with post menopausal women. I do think your right I did use alot and it would make sense for me how it would be counter productive at that ammount. Im still working out things with flax for my fiancee and myself and the ammounts we need and when to cut back from it. I think 5 grams now is actually massive I mean ppl aretaking 100-200mg of DIM per day, taking 5grams of DIM would do the same to anyone I bet lol. Im still learning in my defence.


Hi, I'm still learning too, so no need to defend yourself smile.gif I'm just wondering (and I could be totally wrong) if DIM might be better than a phytoestrogen for men in particular who are estrogen dominant...my reasoning is that since DIM works with your own natural hormones as opposed to replacing them with something else ("weak" estrogen), it might be more suitable for men...flax seed is certainly a good supplement for it's omega 3's, but maybe you could try just 1 gram or fish oil instead + DIM if you think that you might be estrogen dominant? DOn't get me wrong, if you think flax is working for you by all means stick with it! Anything new we introduce can cause an IB, just watch it since the IB should probably not last for more than a couple of weeks...your skin looks great in your pictures so I guess you're doing something right! good luck

#86 Dotty1

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 10:00 AM

Flax lignans are also anti-androgens (less strong than DIM).

Btw, Do you guys think Calcium D-Glucarate does the same thing as DIM in the body?


#87 ayla

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE
Estrogen Metabolism

Calcium-D-glucarate's inhibition of beta-glucuronidase activity allows the body to excrete hormones such as estrogen before they can become reabsorbed. Oral administration of large doses of calcium-D-glucarate have been shown to lower serum estrogen levels in rats by 23 percent. (21) Because many breast cancers are estrogen-dependent, calcium-D-glucarate's ability to affect estrogen and other hormone levels has led to Phase I clinical trials at several major cancer centers in the United States. Results of these studies are pending.

Side Effects and Toxicity

No adverse effects have been observed after prolonged feeding to rats or mice at concentrations of 70, 140, or even 350 mmol/kg. (6) Preliminary results of clinical trials in humans have shown calcium-D-glucarate is without adverse effects.


#88 jewel_001

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 10:28 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 4 2008, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 4 2008, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 3 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 3 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.


It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.


Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...


This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.


valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer


See ive been on 5Grams of Flax lignans for a week(alot i know). Ive broken out like crazy and gotten a cold (first time in 4 years!). I never knew it increased phase one untill the past few days!

Sebrum dried almost over night, I did notice this.

I think anyone who uses ALOT of DIM, I3C, Soya, flax lignans to alter Estrogen motabolism or anyone who simply uses DIM or the likes and breaks out should use any or a bunch of the phase two binders. Your right alot are helping p.2 without knowing i.e. the whole Taurine debate! Thing to realise is if you change phase one without phase two you get a bottleneck of toxins trying to get out and these will just be re-absorbed if not expelled (binded to a sulphur or protein) fast enough, causing sickness, flu like symptoms and an increase in acne.


Hi Jodiat,
I'm not sure that's a good sign...flax is a definite phytoestrogen, there is much controversy on how phytoestrogens work in the body. People generally believe that phytoestrogens compete with estrogens at the receptor sites as you explained earlier. However, whether the general effect is to increase or decrease estrogenic activity is up for debate. It seems that the effect in pre-menopausal women is to decrease estrogenic activity since we have a lot of strong natural estrogens BUT phytoestrogens may INCREASE estrogenic activity in post menopausal women who no longer produce much natural estrogen...I would expect that males are more akin to post menopausal women in terms of estrogen production and therefore it might not be such a great idea for you to take such a high dose of flax. Just a thought...


yo,
Yeah what you say is very true aswell. Using flax,soya,I3C,DIM is like HRT which can be a good thing...esp women it seems will have greater benefit of this. That said men are just as likely to be Estrogen dominant but its interesting and a very good point to compare men with post menopausal women. I do think your right I did use alot and it would make sense for me how it would be counter productive at that ammount. Im still working out things with flax for my fiancee and myself and the ammounts we need and when to cut back from it. I think 5 grams now is actually massive I mean ppl aretaking 100-200mg of DIM per day, taking 5grams of DIM would do the same to anyone I bet lol. Im still learning in my defence.


Hi, I'm still learning too, so no need to defend yourself smile.gif I'm just wondering (and I could be totally wrong) if DIM might be better than a phytoestrogen for men in particular who are estrogen dominant...my reasoning is that since DIM works with your own natural hormones as opposed to replacing them with something else ("weak" estrogen), it might be more suitable for men...flax seed is certainly a good supplement for it's omega 3's, but maybe you could try just 1 gram or fish oil instead + DIM if you think that you might be estrogen dominant? DOn't get me wrong, if you think flax is working for you by all means stick with it! Anything new we introduce can cause an IB, just watch it since the IB should probably not last for more than a couple of weeks...your skin looks great in your pictures so I guess you're doing something right! good luck


Thanks, yeah im still working on this so I cant speak from results yet, ive broken out alot since using 5grams and got a cold so ive not used anything for a few days. Im going to stick with flax for now but DIM can increase progesterone levels so DIM which i dont think flax can do, while it has omega 3 so it all depends what you want and need.

(sorry im on my fiancees account, jodiat)

#89 sie

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 01:00 PM

QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 4 2008, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are several links to articles and reasarch on Estrogen dominance here if anyone wants to look into them.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/estrogen.html


Great Find! I've only read 1/3 of it and am already fascinated!

#90 ayla

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 02:05 PM

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 2 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com...Dominance.cfm#2



Did you guys read this?

#91 jodiat

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 4 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 2 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com...Dominance.cfm#2



Did you guys read this?


I book marked it, it was that good.

#92 sie

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 02:08 PM

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 4 2008, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 2 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com...Dominance.cfm#2



Did you guys read this?


Yes. I love Dr. Lam's site. It is very informative.

#93 merf

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 02:10 PM

QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 4 2008, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ayla @ Mar 2 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com...Dominance.cfm#2



Did you guys read this?


Yes, that's a GREAT article

#94 jodiat

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 02:13 PM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 4 2008, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 4 2008, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are several links to articles and reasarch on Estrogen dominance here if anyone wants to look into them.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/estrogen.html


Great Find! I've only read 1/3 of it and am already fascinated!


CDG is an amazing thing. Its the most important liver detoxifyier and is one reason (in my previous posts) I said if you use DIM, Soya, flax, I3C you should be adding, amoung other aids for the liver, CDG. Shame I have to get it from USA but for what it does its worth it.

#95 sie

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 03:29 AM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 4 2008, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 4 2008, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 4 2008, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are several links to articles and reasarch on Estrogen dominance here if anyone wants to look into them.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/estrogen.html


Great Find! I've only read 1/3 of it and am already fascinated!


CDG is an amazing thing. Its the most important liver detoxifyier and is one reason (in my previous posts) I said if you use DIM, Soya, flax, I3C you should be adding, amoung other aids for the liver, CDG. Shame I have to get it from USA but for what it does its worth it.


I wondering about dosage of CDG. The article above says:

QUOTE
The answer was not progesterone, but calcium d-glucarate. Available in tablet/capsule form, I took it three times a day for about six months; when my next test showed that my serum levels were back within normal ranges for my age, I dropped down to one a day.


This provides a good guideline for the initial flush [3/day]and then what to do for maintenance (continuous flushing of xenoestrogens) [1/day] but fails to mention dose per capsule.

Any ideas?


#96 sie

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 03:55 AM

++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?




#97 jodiat

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 09:16 AM

Good questions.

For CDG id look at 3 times per day at 500mg for a week or two then drop down to two per day with each big meals. Then after time use it once per day. Like you said its possible we need it daily as an acne sufferer just to give out conjested livers the boost it needs to bind and flush out these extra toxins and hormones.
I tend to take stuff with food unless its states better on empty stomach, I try not to get bamboozled over times of taking stuff and mainly take stuff with a meal and I would do the same with any liver enhancing tablets and also with DIM (tho I take my flax on empty and/or with soups. I take my vitamins and minerals with meals aswell, or at least with a protein drink with coconut oil.

I think stressing that we need protein is right aswell (or maybe easier to supplement with the key binders like Taurine, methionine, cdg to an extent, etc) but not going overboard as it slows bowel transit time, which leads me to my next point.
I think fiber is going to be much more important while using DIM/Flax etc and CDG or other liver enhancers. This combination will be attacking hormonal imbalance, flushing and binding them faster and more efficiently, but after the liver they will go through the bowels and urine. So bowel movements of once per day are desired (maybe aiming for 2).
So if doing a having bowel detox is out of the question we are going to need things that help bowel movements.

Soluble/Insoluble Fiber
Probiotics

Adding more fiber through diet is the best way but a supplement like psyliam husks would be useful to increase transit while not eating excess protein. Probiotics can be from sour milk or yhogurt or supplements like Primal defence.

#98 sie

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 10:14 AM

See what i have to say about substances found in broccoli here on this post:

http://www.acne.org/...p;#entry2213576


also, see:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...li%20pill\



I have DIM arriving probably tomorrow to see for myself if I get the same result that others are reporting. When I run out of it, rather than reorder, I will give broccoli pills a try to compare DIM results to broccoli pills.

Seems the answer was there all along in that old thread but maybe we know more now about how it works.
(Not to mention that things might sabotage it...like green tea alone causing DHT spike!)

Gotta go. More later. Please give me your thoughts.

#99 bran88

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 5 2008, 03:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?


Hi Guys,
I understand that both DIM and CDG can help rid the body of xenoestrogens and other toxins, but that DIM may also have other properties that help with acne...The consensus here seems to be, try DIM for a month or two and then use CDG for maintenance...why can't we use DIM for maintenance? IS CDG supposed to be safer, or is it better studied? Thanks


#100 jodiat

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:25 PM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 5 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 5 2008, 03:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?


Hi Guys,
I understand that both DIM and CDG can help rid the body of xenoestrogens and other toxins, but that DIM may also have other properties that help with acne...The consensus here seems to be, try DIM for a month or two and then use CDG for maintenance...why can't we use DIM for maintenance? IS CDG supposed to be safer, or is it better studied? Thanks


Not ideally I think you should use CDG along with DIM or even use CDG for a week or 2 before DIM. They are very different supplements so please understand how both work to help control hormonal acne.