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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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#61 ryudoadema

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 07:43 PM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?

#62 jodiat

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?


Id say yes, once you stop DIM and other areas are not addresed then it would be only time before it goes back 'as it was'.

#63 merf

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:15 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
http://www.canarys-e.../estrogens.html

http://www.canarys-e...trogen-mod.html

http://www.canarys-e...ents/caldg.html

Have you read these? Might be helpful. Im using Flax seed lignans and others here ahev used this and its worked well for them. Mainly tho it seems the effects of DIM and Flax lignans are similar in their outcome? So im interested in what you find.


i've not heard of flax lignans, but i put milled flax seed in my food. same thing???

#64 bran88

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 2 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 2 2008, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.


No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.


DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels. It still does not address the main problem that you need to increase progesterone over changing Estrogen levels for hormonal balance and for acne, cancer reduction. Use caution tho as progesterone over use is a problem in itself!

http://www.mercola.c...erone/cream.htm

Check this if your opting for Progesterone cream which IMO is attacking the root of hormonal imbalance instead of using the other method of altering Estrogen motabalism to help progesterone levels


I don't believe that DIM is a phytoestrogen...it works with your own hormones to balance them just like vitex/chasteberry, making it different from soy and flax. Also since estrogen and progesterone are antagonists, replacing strong (supposedly bad) estrogens with weaker estrogens will increase progesterone activity in theory. I'm not sure how strong of an effect DIM has in this sense though.

#65 bran88

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:28 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 3 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.


It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.


Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...


This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.


valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer


See ive been on 5Grams of Flax lignans for a week(alot i know). Ive broken out like crazy and gotten a cold (first time in 4 years!). I never knew it increased phase one untill the past few days!

Sebrum dried almost over night, I did notice this.

I think anyone who uses ALOT of DIM, I3C, Soya, flax lignans to alter Estrogen motabolism or anyone who simply uses DIM or the likes and breaks out should use any or a bunch of the phase two binders. Your right alot are helping p.2 without knowing i.e. the whole Taurine debate! Thing to realise is if you change phase one without phase two you get a bottleneck of toxins trying to get out and these will just be re-absorbed if not expelled (binded to a sulphur or protein) fast enough, causing sickness, flu like symptoms and an increase in acne.


Hi Jodiat,
I'm not sure that's a good sign...flax is a definite phytoestrogen, there is much controversy on how phytoestrogens work in the body. People generally believe that phytoestrogens compete with estrogens at the receptor sites as you explained earlier. However, whether the general effect is to increase or decrease estrogenic activity is up for debate. It seems that the effect in pre-menopausal women is to decrease estrogenic activity since we have a lot of strong natural estrogens BUT phytoestrogens may INCREASE estrogenic activity in post menopausal women who no longer produce much natural estrogen...I would expect that males are more akin to post menopausal women in terms of estrogen production and therefore it might not be such a great idea for you to take such a high dose of flax. Just a thought...

#66 ryudoadema

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:48 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?


Id say yes, once you stop DIM and other areas are not addresed then it would be only time before it goes back 'as it was'.

I'm thinking the "rebound" may actually be worse IF it happens...I think this is my fifth day i believe and no changes except for my "arousal" factor is definitely lowered and having a VERY hard time sleeping- but this is apposed to my moderately hard time sleeping and could be cuz of school/stress

Either way, I'm cutting my dose to two of the Natures Way DIM Plus for now....

#67 sie

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 03:07 AM

ryu--

I want to see if we can identify some missing piece of the puzzle or an interference.


what else are you taking (supplements, prescriptions, etc) and what sort of diet do you follow? please list anything that can have an effect (high protein or low protein diet?, high or low fat?, fish oil, drinking green tea, taking aloe, probiotic foods, coconut oil, cocoa, dark berries, green smoothies, tran-fats, diet sodas, sugars, etc...alot of "foods" are more effective than drugs in affecting your body, so please list as much as you can) and also toxin exposure (like do you work in a printing press or something? long shot, but if there is something important, tell us) do you "work out"? are you under excessive (more than usual) stress? have you ever had signs of hair thinning in the past?


also, what brand, ingredients list, dosage per pill, and how do you take them (when? with food? how many?)?



Thanks for the honest reporting! smile.gif

#68 kaleidoscope

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 03:51 AM

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?


Id say yes, once you stop DIM and other areas are not addresed then it would be only time before it goes back 'as it was'.

I'm thinking the "rebound" may actually be worse IF it happens...I think this is my fifth day i believe and no changes except for my "arousal" factor is definitely lowered and having a VERY hard time sleeping- but this is apposed to my moderately hard time sleeping and could be cuz of school/stress

Either way, I'm cutting my dose to two of the Natures Way DIM Plus for now....


That's not good. I also saw a post elsewhere on the internet by someone saying that DIM seemed to giving them insomnia. I may not take it afterall then...

#69 sie

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 04:13 AM

QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 4 2008, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?


Id say yes, once you stop DIM and other areas are not addresed then it would be only time before it goes back 'as it was'.

I'm thinking the "rebound" may actually be worse IF it happens...I think this is my fifth day i believe and no changes except for my "arousal" factor is definitely lowered and having a VERY hard time sleeping- but this is apposed to my moderately hard time sleeping and could be cuz of school/stress

Either way, I'm cutting my dose to two of the Natures Way DIM Plus for now....


That's not good. I also saw a post elsewhere on the internet by someone saying that DIM seemed to giving them insomnia. I may not take it afterall then...

Some people who have seen results on their acne with DIM have indicated better quality of sleep (deep restful sleep). Perhaps one's sleep or lack thereof using DIM is a good marker of whether DIM is appropriate for them or not.????? Anyway, I think it takes some time and dose adjustment before giving up on it.

#70 jodiat

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 04:50 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 3 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 2 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 2 2008, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.


No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.


DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels. It still does not address the main problem that you need to increase progesterone over changing Estrogen levels for hormonal balance and for acne, cancer reduction. Use caution tho as progesterone over use is a problem in itself!

http://www.mercola.c...erone/cream.htm

Check this if your opting for Progesterone cream which IMO is attacking the root of hormonal imbalance instead of using the other method of altering Estrogen motabalism to help progesterone levels


I don't believe that DIM is a phytoestrogen...it works with your own hormones to balance them just like vitex/chasteberry, making it different from soy and flax. Also since estrogen and progesterone are antagonists, replacing strong (supposedly bad) estrogens with weaker estrogens will increase progesterone activity in theory. I'm not sure how strong of an effect DIM has in this sense though.


Ill agree flax is not a phytoestrogen by name but by nature its still going about the same thing as DIM but what it might well do, as DIM works with your own hormones, phytoestrogens force the body to accept them without question. What you have put I believe is true, replacing strgonger bodily Estrogren with weaker dietry Estrogen (Via DIM and flax lignans) it will increase progesterone activity, I think this is almost fact and DIM does indeed go along way to changing the ratio of Estrogen by increasing the 'good' and lowering the 'bad' section of Estrogen.

#71 kaleidoscope

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 04:55 AM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 4 2008, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some people who have seen results on their acne with DIM have indicated better quality of sleep (deep restful sleep). Perhaps one's sleep or lack thereof using DIM is a good marker of whether DIM is appropriate for them or not.????? Anyway, I think it takes some time and dose adjustment before giving up on it.


Oh, I didn't know it had improved some people's sleep. Interesting...

#72 pm2

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:05 AM

Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.
26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.

#73 sie

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:19 AM

jodiat:

a couple of things: as I have heard some reports of other DIM-related affects in women (re: mood & libido), I ordered it last week and am trying to stick to the research into DIM so that if it doesn't work for me at first I can make adjustments. Thats why I've stayed away from the flax discussion. However, flax would probably be a hell of alot easier to find in Europe and I'd love to think it could work. However, here's my concern. I'm afraid that exogenous estrogens (toxins in the xeno form and healthy phyto) could be what is leading to some estrogen imbalance in some people. I understand that the weaker phytoestrogen would bind to the receptor and exert a weaker influence...but I don't know if, as a woman, that is what I want. Furthermore, what happens to the endogenous estrogens that my body makes? Or more importantly, what happens to androgens that can convert by way of aromatase to my body's natural estrogens? If receptors say "I got my estrogen (flax)..I'm cool." then does any androgens just stay androgens or convert to testo and perhaps DHT resulting in acne?? Wouldn't it have to be flushed out somehow? Now, some men may benefit from flax because it would introduce a weaker (hopefully non-boob-forming) phyto-estrogen that can tell the body to crank up the SHBG, which would leave less testo for causing acne problems. I think its individual and VERY complicated.

nice article: http://www.medscape....rticle/412853_3

#74 kaleidoscope

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:19 AM

QUOTE (pm2 @ Mar 4 2008, 06:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.
26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.

#75 jodiat

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:21 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 3 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (alternativista @ Mar 3 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.


It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.


Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 3 2008, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...


This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.


valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer


See ive been on 5Grams of Flax lignans for a week(alot i know). Ive broken out like crazy and gotten a cold (first time in 4 years!). I never knew it increased phase one untill the past few days!

Sebrum dried almost over night, I did notice this.

I think anyone who uses ALOT of DIM, I3C, Soya, flax lignans to alter Estrogen motabolism or anyone who simply uses DIM or the likes and breaks out should use any or a bunch of the phase two binders. Your right alot are helping p.2 without knowing i.e. the whole Taurine debate! Thing to realise is if you change phase one without phase two you get a bottleneck of toxins trying to get out and these will just be re-absorbed if not expelled (binded to a sulphur or protein) fast enough, causing sickness, flu like symptoms and an increase in acne.


Hi Jodiat,
I'm not sure that's a good sign...flax is a definite phytoestrogen, there is much controversy on how phytoestrogens work in the body. People generally believe that phytoestrogens compete with estrogens at the receptor sites as you explained earlier. However, whether the general effect is to increase or decrease estrogenic activity is up for debate. It seems that the effect in pre-menopausal women is to decrease estrogenic activity since we have a lot of strong natural estrogens BUT phytoestrogens may INCREASE estrogenic activity in post menopausal women who no longer produce much natural estrogen...I would expect that males are more akin to post menopausal women in terms of estrogen production and therefore it might not be such a great idea for you to take such a high dose of flax. Just a thought...


yo,
Yeah what you say is very true aswell. Using flax,soya,I3C,DIM is like HRT which can be a good thing...esp women it seems will have greater benefit of this. That said men are just as likely to be Estrogen dominant but its interesting and a very good point to compare men with post menopausal women. I do think your right I did use alot and it would make sense for me how it would be counter productive at that ammount. Im still working out things with flax for my fiancee and myself and the ammounts we need and when to cut back from it. I think 5 grams now is actually massive I mean ppl aretaking 100-200mg of DIM per day, taking 5grams of DIM would do the same to anyone I bet lol. Im still learning in my defence.


#76 sie

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:39 AM

QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 4 2008, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (pm2 @ Mar 4 2008, 06:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.
26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.


Its useful information that wasn't ignored (at least not by me), I just can't comment on it. All I can do is heed warning as I go forward. I certainly don't expect to be on the stuff for any long period of time without getting a hormone work-up. I expect to try it for a month. After that...I don't know. I think that if it actually makes beneficial changes to the liver, it could take 3 months to make those changes. I might be trying to get pregnant before then, so for now, I'm just going to try a month to try to eliminate some current "clogginess" (the thought of blackheads falling out is very encouraging) and some other probably hormonal issues that I think I have. Based on some other dietary, etc changes that I have made, I don't expect to see active pimples in the future...just trying to speed up the de-clogging, which may only be attributed to DIM's anti-androgen aspect anyway. But I think everyone's initial concerns before ordering ("is this safe for males?" and "how do you know if you have estrogen dominance?") shows that people are at least giving it consideration before Jumping In.

#77 jodiat

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:48 AM

QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 4 2008, 05:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (pm2 @ Mar 4 2008, 06:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.
26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.


Me2 I read this but like Sie its hard to comment on for the simple fact to find if you are indeed Estrogen d. you need a urine sample of a reading 2.0, below this and you are indeed e.d but imo most ppl are to an extent, e.d, thing is the ammount is based on gender, lifestlye, diet and enviroment even down to sleep as adreanls play a role in Est>Proges levels. I think its better to build your house before you live in it and this means really reading up about this stuff and all its co-factors before people see it as a cure or a help. Its possible less is more for males while more is better for pre menopausal women but less is better for pro menopausal women, not to mention progesterone cream might be even better then DIM and flax in controlling homonal acne! Theres too many questions and not enough answers but its exciting.


#78 jodiat

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 06:01 AM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 4 2008, 05:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
jodiat:

a couple of things: as I have heard some reports of other DIM-related affects in women (re: mood & libido), I ordered it last week and am trying to stick to the research into DIM so that if it doesn't work for me at first I can make adjustments. Thats why I've stayed away from the flax discussion. However, flax would probably be a hell of alot easier to find in Europe and I'd love to think it could work. However, here's my concern. I'm afraid that exogenous estrogens (toxins in the xeno form and healthy phyto) could be what is leading to some estrogen imbalance in some people. I understand that the weaker phytoestrogen would bind to the receptor and exert a weaker influence...but I don't know if, as a woman, that is what I want. Furthermore, what happens to the endogenous estrogens that my body makes? Or more importantly, what happens to androgens that can convert by way of aromatase to my body's natural estrogens? If receptors say "I got my estrogen (flax)..I'm cool." then does any androgens just stay androgens or convert to testo and perhaps DHT resulting in acne?? Wouldn't it have to be flushed out somehow? Now, some men may benefit from flax because it would introduce a weaker (hopefully non-boob-forming) phyto-estrogen that can tell the body to crank up the SHBG, which would leave less testo for causing acne problems. I think its individual and VERY complicated.

nice article: http://www.medscape....rticle/412853_3


Sie from what I have read into all of this progesterone cream is the corner stone in E.D while using DIM and phytoestrogens and other changes (liver supplements and diet) and lifestyle changes (reducing stress) together work to fix this.
My real advice from what ive read around 50% of women are E.D and Mercola thinks even higher. IMO I think its higher aswell. To be sure you will need testing. If thats not possible then your like me and my fiancee and we will just have to use trial and error. BTW alot of bodbuilders gain Gyno because of steroids and use flax to reduce man boobs. It seems that theres a myth that phytoestrogens make you womanly, flax lignans infact help reduce DHT and male pattern baldness, not giving man boobs. Im still making sense of it all so I might be wrong in areas here but no-one else seems to have figuired it out yet mainly because each individual is indeed VERY complicated.


#79 merf

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 06:16 AM

QUOTE (pm2 @ Mar 4 2008, 07:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.
26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


That's really interesting. I do think it's important that you get your hormone levels tested so you know what you're dealing with since like Jodiat said, we are very complicated.

#80 kaleidoscope

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 07:21 AM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 4 2008, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Leah_ @ Mar 4 2008, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (pm2 @ Mar 4 2008, 06:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.
26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.


Its useful information that wasn't ignored (at least not by me), I just can't comment on it. All I can do is heed warning as I go forward. I certainly don't expect to be on the stuff for any long period of time without getting a hormone work-up. I expect to try it for a month. After that...I don't know. I think that if it actually makes beneficial changes to the liver, it could take 3 months to make those changes. I might be trying to get pregnant before then, so for now, I'm just going to try a month to try to eliminate some current "clogginess" (the thought of blackheads falling out is very encouraging) and some other probably hormonal issues that I think I have. Based on some other dietary, etc changes that I have made, I don't expect to see active pimples in the future...just trying to speed up the de-clogging, which may only be attributed to DIM's anti-androgen aspect anyway. But I think everyone's initial concerns before ordering ("is this safe for males?" and "how do you know if you have estrogen dominance?") shows that people are at least giving it consideration before Jumping In.


Yeah, I just meant that some people seem to be taking it or wanting to take it when they have no symptoms of estrogen dominance, and they just want some miracle supplement for their acne... which doesn't exist.

I decided that I'm going to get a saliva hormone test for estrogen and progesterone, and if I am indeed estrogen dominant/progesterone deficient as I suspect, I will use natural progesterone cream instead of DIM (on top of trying to improve adrenal funtion, of course!). I am a little wary of DIM because of its supposed effect on testosterone. If it really does increase free testosterone, then it's possible it would make things worse when you stop taking it (when its anti-androgenic effects wear off).