139 replies to this topic

[ryudoadema]

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

[Paul25]

I have a question. Forgive me if this has been asked.

What type of DIM is better, the BIO-DIM(which has 25% DIM and also Vit E) or the pure DIM.

An example of a bio-dim(also called dim complex) pill is the natures way DIM.

Anyways I know that vit E helps absorbtion of DIM so thats why im contomplating whether or not I should get the bio-dim or the pure stuff and take a vit e suppliment.

I would also be interested in knowing this if anyone have any info on this.

[jodiat]

Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

[jodiat]

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels. It still does not address the main problem that you need to increase progesterone over changing Estrogen levels for hormonal balance and for acne, cancer reduction. Use caution tho as progesterone over use is a problem in itself!

http://www.mercola.c...erone/cream.htm

Check this if your opting for Progesterone cream which IMO is attacking the root of hormonal imbalance instead of using the other method of altering Estrogen motabalism to help progesterone levels

[sie]

Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer

[sie]

jodiat, if the DIM works due to p-450 & liver-related mechanisms, do you think progesterone cream can work as well?

I don't believe so.

[jodiat]

Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer

See ive been on 5Grams of Flax lignans for a week(alot i know). Ive broken out like crazy and gotten a cold (first time in 4 years!). I never knew it increased phase one untill the past few days!

Sebrum dried almost over night, I did notice this.

I think anyone who uses ALOT of DIM, I3C, Soya, flax lignans to alter Estrogen motabolism or anyone who simply uses DIM or the likes and breaks out should use any or a bunch of the phase two binders. Your right alot are helping p.2 without knowing i.e. the whole Taurine debate! Thing to realise is if you change phase one without phase two you get a bottleneck of toxins trying to get out and these will just be re-absorbed if not expelled (binded to a sulphur or protein) fast enough, causing sickness, flu like symptoms and an increase in acne.

[andersoj]

Have you guys read this wikipedia article on DIM where it talks about its ability to attack antibiotic resistant bacteria? Maybe that has something to do with its effectiveness against acne?

http://en.wikipedia....iindolylmethane

Forgive me if this has already been brought up.

[alternativista]

I don't think it's hyperandrogenism that is necessarily the problem, but too much free T because of decreased SHBG.

There are many studies that show both men and women with acne have higher levels of free T and lower levels of SHBG when compared to acne free control groups.

So basically, you can have normal serum levels of androgens, but with less SHBG you have more bioavailable androgens to bind with receptors on sebaceous glands and thats where the real problem starts.

Decreased SHBG is associated with the liver's conversion of excess blood glucose to triglycerides, which I think is why a low carb diet seems to work so well. (less carbs = less blood glucose)

I wonder if this is what is meant when they talk about receptors being over-sensitive to androgens.

And do phytoestrogens increase SHBG?

[sie]

Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.
this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer

See ive been on 5Grams of Flax lignans for a week(alot i know). Ive broken out like crazy and gotten a cold (first time in 4 years!). I never knew it increased phase one untill the past few days!

Sebrum dried almost over night, I did notice this.

I think anyone who uses ALOT of DIM, I3C, Soya, flax lignans to alter Estrogen motabolism or anyone who simply uses DIM or the likes and breaks out should use any or a bunch of the phase two binders. Your right alot are helping p.2 without knowing i.e. the whole Taurine debate! Thing to realise is if you change phase one without phase two you get a bottleneck of toxins trying to get out and these will just be re-absorbed if not expelled (binded to a sulphur or protein) fast enough, causing sickness, flu like symptoms and an increase in acne.

Right! In fact, if you are doing other healthy phase 1 things, you might create the bottleneck on day 1.

So it should be easy to say: start with ____, if unsuccessful then add ____. When effect "fades", reduce dose of _____.
To put up a program. DIM seems so successful that it might be the best place to start and then add stuff. The anti-androgen effect is immediate, but Ithink the liver needs 3 months to see permanent change.

To think that accutane can harm the liver, and here is a solution that can have results that are just as good and reinforces the liver, while providing anti-cancer properties for the future!

[kaleidoscope]

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.

It doesn't matter that much, because you're right that it helps balance the estrogen to progesterone ratio, which is the important thing... BUT no, DIM is not a phytoestrogen.

Unlike soy isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, DIM is not an estrogen mimic or "phytoestrogen" and has no inherent estrogenic activity. DIM acts to balance the natural response to estrogen by adjusting the activity of metabolic cytochrome enzymes and specialized estrogen receptor molecules.

http://www.dimfaq.co...te/articles.htm

Personally I think DIM (from what I've read) is much better than phytoestrogens like flax seeds or soy isoflavones. Phytoestrogens break me out like crazy, and I don't personally think that it's because there is something wrong with my liver as I've done a lot of liver cleansing and I've eaten very well for years now. I just think phytoestrogens are evil. I don't think they necessarily help balance estrogen/progesterone.

[jodiat]

jodiat, if the DIM works due to p-450 & liver-related mechanisms, do you think progesterone cream can work as well?

I don't believe so.

Sie, ill explain it how i see it then you explain how you see it working? But heres my spin on it..

If memory serves me correctly p-450 is phase one of liver detoxing where it takes a toxin and binds it to a water soluble molecule (less damaging but this makes a a free radical). So the main things that effect this is Antioxidents C, E in particular and some other suplements that protect the liver.

DIM is working mainly by altering Estrogen motabolism/balancing, its not effecting the liver other then sending more harmful xenoestrogens in a larger number. This increase phase 1 and is the reason why phase 2 supplements are crucial while alter Estorgen levels.

Progesterone cream is going about it a whole different way. This way you are increasing the lowered hormone (by applying a cream, a natural progesterone). By directly increasing the lowered hormone your balancing the whole equation without DIM, Flax, soya and I3C. Because when you increase progesterone the receptor sites pick up progesterone, as it balances with Estrogen to make the balance naturally. Thus your lowering Estrogen by adding progesterone. This real problem here is the long term use of progesterone will cause another hormonal imbalance in the adrenals and thyroid such as DHEA with longer term of excess use. The key is using both and using them wise while stopping using them when needed. Thats what im trying to figure out.

[jodiat]

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.

It doesn't matter that much, because you're right that it helps balance the estrogen to progesterone ratio, which is the important thing... BUT no, DIM is not a phytoestrogen.

Unlike soy isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, DIM is not an estrogen mimic or "phytoestrogen" and has no inherent estrogenic activity. DIM acts to balance the natural response to estrogen by adjusting the activity of metabolic cytochrome enzymes and specialized estrogen receptor molecules.

http://www.dimfaq.co...te/articles.htm

Personally I think DIM (from what I've read) is much better than phytoestrogens like flax seeds or soy isoflavones. Phytoestrogens break me out like crazy, and I don't personally think that it's because there is something wrong with my liver as I've done a lot of liver cleansing and I've eaten very well for years now. I just think phytoestrogens are evil. I don't think they necessarily help balance estrogen/progesterone.

Hmm well whos right it dont matter the fact is both of these increase the good Estogen and lowers bad Estrogen. This helps with the balance of Estrogen and progesterone. IMO flax is far better, it has fiber, very high antioxidents and has omega 3! Granted we are talking a alot more expense so DIM is worthy. I think your wrong tho they do balance Estrogen/Progesterone and scince back this up, while reality might not.

[junebug1991]

Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

only organic versions of these though because any pesticides could set you back.
anyone know anything about choliver? (its an herb that promotes liver function)

[jodiat]

So it should be easy to say: start with ____, if unsuccessful then add ____. When effect "fades", reduce dose of _____.

Start with Progesterone cream, maybe 5mg-20mg (I cant say just yet). If unsuccessful then add Phytonutrients/phytestrogens like i3C, Soya, Flax lignans or DIM. When acne reduces lower the supplementation. If acne increases reduce supplemntation and increase phase one with water soluble vitamins and anything that protects the liver (Milk thistle and herbs), while increasing phase 2 with the supplemnts I mentioned earlier in my posts. Once acne is reducing slowly reduce all but the phase 1 and 2 supplements and then use the cream or DIM etc once in a while to keep ontop of any imbalances from diet, environment or stress.

Hope this helps.

[sie]

whats that? =P

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

and

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


Dotty, DIM seems to induce CYP1A1 and aromatase (as well as other stuff).


Hope this helps with your research.

jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.

[jodiat]

jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.

'The resulting deficit of active natural retinoids may lead to abnormal sebocyte differentiation and hyperkeratinization of the follicular canal implicating the development of acne in some patients.'

From this im not 100% sure as im not educated enough to read this and make full sense of it but I read it that like we mentioned, DIM increases toxins, xenoestrogens and makes more free radicals which could attack DNA and this would lead to an increase in acne if you have acne, only if phase 2 is compromised or not able to cope with what phase 1 produces.

cyp1a1 im going to look at abit.

[sie]

jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.

'The resulting deficit of active natural retinoids may lead to abnormal sebocyte differentiation and hyperkeratinization of the follicular canal implicating the development of acne in some patients.'

From this im not 100% sure as im not educated enough to read this and make full sense of it but I read it that like we mentioned, DIM increases toxins, xenoestrogens and makes more free radicals which could attack DNA and this would lead to an increase in acne if you have acne, only if phase 2 is compromised or not able to cope with what phase 1 produces.

cyp1a1 im going to look at abit.

The polymorphism article just says that some people might have acne because they can't process natural vit A due to CYP1A1 m1 mutation. The DIM articles says that with DIM induces CYP1A1 to mRNA. Unfortunately there are no DIM acne studies, but ifyou connect the dots, what you get is: some acne is due to a hole in the CYP1A1 and DIM might fill that hole. This is TOTALLY theory. but a study between DIM and acne could turn up alot. Also, cruciferous veg provide the sulfer part needed for phase II. A broccoli pill (or maybe the powdeers in DIM plus) might be sufficient. Anyway, my DIM finally shipped today. If it works, I swear I will eat cruc veg 4x week for the rest of my life!!

[jodiat]

jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.

'The resulting deficit of active natural retinoids may lead to abnormal sebocyte differentiation and hyperkeratinization of the follicular canal implicating the development of acne in some patients.'

From this im not 100% sure as im not educated enough to read this and make full sense of it but I read it that like we mentioned, DIM increases toxins, xenoestrogens and makes more free radicals which could attack DNA and this would lead to an increase in acne if you have acne, only if phase 2 is compromised or not able to cope with what phase 1 produces.

cyp1a1 im going to look at abit.

The polymorphism article just says that some people might have acne because they can't process natural vit A due to CYP1A1 m1 mutation. The DIM articles says that with DIM induces CYP1A1 to mRNA. Unfortunately there are no DIM acne studies, but ifyou connect the dots, what you get is: some acne is due to a hole in the CYP1A1 and DIM might fill that hole. This is TOTALLY theory. but a study between DIM and acne could turn up alot. Also, cruciferous veg provide the sulfer part needed for phase II. A broccoli pill (or maybe the powdeers in DIM plus) might be sufficient. Anyway, my DIM finally shipped today. If it works, I swear I will eat cruc veg 4x week for the rest of my life!!

Or just use MSM

[sie]

I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


It seems to work on all the right places, there just hasn't been an acne specific study yet. But coupled with the incredible anecdotal evidence of users....looks promising. Doesn't hurt that it is anti-cancer. VERY appealing supplement.

(note: last study involved bio available DIM, as if maybe it makes a difference--for those who have asked. ??)