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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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#21 Dotty1

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 06:56 PM

Yes, Flaxseeds have anti-androgen activity as well in their lignans. I didnt know that sulfur was used by the movie stars, but it clears me right up (MSM).

#22 treefeet

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 11:48 PM

QUOTE (valo_123 @ Mar 1 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Dotty1 @ Mar 1 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think there is a certain percentage of people using DIM who have excess androgen problems and a certain percent who have estrogen problems.

80% of people's acne clears from Accutane use (which is an anti-androgen), but 20% of people who use Accutane say that Accutane was ineffective on their acne (could this be the people with estrogen problems?). On Wikipedia (and many medical studies), scientists have found that the majority of acne sufferers have excess androgens.

DIM cures both problems: It balances estrogen AND it is the strongest anti-androgen naturally available, rivaling (if not beating) accutane.

Birth controls which were synthesized to control acne problems are chemicals which suppress androgens. However, there is always a small percentage of people who do not benefit from it (those with estrogen problems?).

The "Vitamin B5" cure was also an anti-androgen (but did not balance estrogen).

I am thinking that the acne trail breaks off into two roads now: Estrogen/progesterone problems... and androgen problems.


Are you saying the mass amounts of vitamin A in tane had an anti androgen effect?


http://jcem.endojour...t/80/4/1158.pdf

Seems to have more of a direct affect on androgen receptor sites.


#23 sie

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 07:30 AM

Dotty, pay attention to cytochrome P450 (or CYP) while researching.

#24 Dotty1

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 08:30 AM

whats that? =P

#25 Dotty1

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 03:17 PM

So far, I've found the causes behind excessive androgens:

The causes of hyperandrogenism in reproductive aged women can be divided into five categories in descending order of prevalence:

The first is polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS).
The second is idiopathic hirsutism.
The third category is either adrenal or ovarian steroidogenic enzyme deficiencies.
The fourth category is that of ovarian and adrenal androgen secreting tumors.
The fifth category is other endocrine disorders such as Cushing syndrome, disorders of cortisol metabolism, hyperprolactinemia and acromegaly.

The great majority of women with hirsutism or other symptoms of hyperandrogenism will have either PCOS or idiopathic hirsutism. The remaining causes combined account for less than 5% of the cases of hyperandrogenism

#26 kaleidoscope

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 04:34 PM

I don't understand why you say idiopathic hirsutism is a cause of hyperandrogenism. Idiopathic hirsutism is hirsutism with no identifiable cause. Someone with idiopathic hirsutism does not have hyperandrogenism.

Also, many people with acne do not have hyperandrogenism. They are just overly sensitive to normal levels of androgens. But anti-androgens can still often work in this case.



#27 ayla

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 05:13 PM

Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com...Dominance.cfm#2

#28 treefeet

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 05:35 PM


I don't think it's hyperandrogenism that is necessarily the problem, but too much free T because of decreased SHBG.

There are many studies that show both men and women with acne have higher levels of free T and lower levels of SHBG when compared to acne free control groups.

So basically, you can have normal serum levels of androgens, but with less SHBG you have more bioavailable androgens to bind with receptors on sebaceous glands and thats where the real problem starts.

Decreased SHBG is associated with the liver's conversion of excess blood glucose to triglycerides, which I think is why a low carb diet seems to work so well. (less carbs = less blood glucose)

#29 sie

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 06:21 PM

QUOTE (Dotty1 @ Mar 2 2008, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
whats that? =P


http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

and

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


Dotty, DIM seems to induce CYP1A1 and aromatase (as well as other stuff).


Hope this helps with your research.

#30 Dotty1

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 06:21 PM

I just copied and pasted what I read... I didnt write it smile.gif.

#31 jodiat

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 07:59 PM

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

Im liking how this can help with PMS for my princess...if I could help her with this Ill be so happy.

#32 sie

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 03:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Im liking how this can help with PMS for my princess...if I could help her with this Ill be so happy.


What a sweetheart you are.

#33 kaleidoscope

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 2 2008, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.
Estrogen balances with Progesterone.
Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.
2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad
Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.
These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.
The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone
This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.


No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.


#34 Light in Sight

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 09:16 PM

I have a question. Forgive me if this has been asked.

What type of DIM is better, the BIO-DIM(which has 25% DIM and also Vit E) or the pure DIM.

An example of a bio-dim(also called dim complex) pill is the natures way DIM.

Anyways I know that vit E helps absorbtion of DIM so thats why im contomplating whether or not I should get the bio-dim or the pure stuff and take a vit e suppliment.

#35 bran88

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 09:36 PM

Hi guys,
can someone explain why calcium d-glucarate is beneficial to us...Also is it something we should consider taking with DIM?

#36 sie

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 02:03 AM

QUOTE (bran88 @ Mar 3 2008, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi guys,
can someone explain why calcium d-glucarate is beneficial to us...Also is it something we should consider taking with DIM?


After some other posts, I've read a little bit about it. It actually cleanses out the xenoestrogens. I think it would very beneficial to eliminating some of the modern toxins that might be overloading our bodies. My understanding is that DIM enzymatically helps to balance existing natural estrogens, is anti-androgenic and helps to balance testosterone as well; but may not actually push out the external estrogens. CDG does this. It could be that people who don't have success with DIM , might see success with CDG--just my theory. I wish I had known about it when I ordered the DIM so I could have gotten them both. I will try to find some, as I live in a very polluted city and I think CDG could help me be healthier regardless of whether the DIM works or not. I'm not sure whether it would be optimal to take CDG before, during or after DIM. Since so many people have had success with DIM (blackheads pushing out on their own!), I am going to try it first and see if it works and then add CDG a little later.

#37 jodiat

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 05:39 AM

Think ive worked somthing out.

I can see why using DIM, flax seed etc and progesterone can break people out.

Once you flush out xenoestrogens your basically increasing toxins in the body and if your liver cant expel used hormones fast enough you will get more acne. (this explains why im ill after using 5grams of flax seed lignans in the last week! and why im breaking out from using it)

This also explains why using Calcium D-gluconate and liver building/cleansing herbs and high fiber diets help as this flushes out used hormones faster!

This also links in candida into the equation as candida and leaky gut goes hand in hand. Leaky gut also can leak used hormones back into your system. Thus your increasing how much hormones are in the body simply because the bowels are not working well and leading to an increase in cancer, esp women as they go up and down each month with body estrogen and this explains why women get PMS.

I think anyone on DIM,Soya, flax, I3C should indefinatly take anything to increase liver detoxification. Including Calcium D-gluconate any liver building/cleansing herbs and anything to increase phase 2 of liver detoxifiation...and guess what some of these are...

TAURINE
GLUTAMINE
GLUTATHIONE
GLYCINE
TAURINE
CYSTEINE
SULPHUR PHYTOCHEMICALS (GARLIC,CABBAGE,BROCCOLI,ONIONS,LEAKS,CAULIFLOWERS,BRUSSEL SPROUTS)
N.A.C
METHIONINE
CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE
QUERCETIN
LIPOLIC ACID

Well this is all making sense. Thing is I knew about this before but I didnt undestand it how I do now.

If you dont have enough raw material in phase 2 detoxification of the liver then it cant deal with the excess hormones that DIM,flax,I3C dispalce creating xenoestrogens.

#38 sie

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 06:44 AM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Think ive worked somthing out.

I can see why using DIM, flax seed etc and progesterone can break people out.

Once you flush out xenoestrogens your basically increasing toxins in the body and if your liver cant expel used hormones fast enough you will get more acne. (this explains why im ill after using 5grams of flax seed lignans in the last week! and why im breaking out from using it)

This also explains why using Calcium D-gluconate and liver building/cleansing herbs and high fiber diets help as this flushes out used hormones faster!

This also links in candida into the equation as candida and leaky gut goes hand in hand. Leaky gut also can leak used hormones back into your system. Thus your increasing how much hormones are in the body simply because the bowels are not working well and leading to an increase in cancer, esp women as they go up and down each month with body estrogen and this explains why women get PMS.

I think anyone on DIM,Soya, flax, I3C should indefinatly take anything to increase liver detoxification. Including Calcium D-gluconate any liver building/cleansing herbs and anything to increase phase 2 of liver detoxifiation...and guess what some of these are...

TAURINE
GLUTAMINE
GLUTATHIONE
GLYCINE
TAURINE
CYSTEINE
SULPHUR PHYTOCHEMICALS (GARLIC,CABBAGE,BROCCOLI,ONIONS,LEAKS,CAULIFLOWERS,BRUSSEL SPROUTS)
N.A.C
METHIONINE
CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE
QUERCETIN
LIPOLIC ACID

Well this is all making sense. Thing is I knew about this before but I didnt undestand it how I do now.

If you dont have enough raw material in phase 2 detoxification of the liver then it cant deal with the excess hormones that DIM,flax,I3C dispalce creating xenoestrogens.


This is brilliant. Do you think with a little more research that you might be able to translate it into a program (i.e. 30 days DIM, followed by 2 weeks CDG and monthly maintenance of???). Do you think there might be at least 2 different "types" that would get different treatment (i.e. androgen type and estrogen-imbalance type)?

#39 jodiat

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (sie @ Mar 3 2008, 05:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is brilliant. Do you think with a little more research that you might be able to translate it into a program (i.e. 30 days DIM, followed by 2 weeks CDG and monthly maintenance of???). Do you think there might be at least 2 different "types" that would get different treatment (i.e. androgen type and estrogen-imbalance type)?


Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances. I say its the key but it dosent mean having any hormonal imbalance is healthy or unhealthy. If the liver worked 100% you could throw any ammount of hormones in any amount and youd have zero acne! Why? Because this is happening every day for people who dont have any acne at all but eat pure high GI sugars, junk food, stressed, oily skin and poor diets etc etc yet still have clear skin. (Albeit they maybe and do have many other health issues that stem from all of this, including hormonal imbalnces but lets keep this to acne)

With this in mind if you alter your Estrogen levels with DIM your going to need a very good liver. This is why the above supplements I think are needed for anyone whos breaking out while on DIM...male and female. I would concentrate more on the liver than DIM.

Ideally id use some or all of the liver builders for a week or so before using DIM,flax, soya, progesterone or both together. Without proper feedback its hard to determine when to stop using Estrogen altering supplement/creams or even IF to use them (TBH theres not much of an IF in this as I believe alot more people are estrogen dominant then they realise, including men!) . Id have to research more time into working up a plan I guess. Parts of this is new to myself and ive not looked into androgens just yet. The fact is if you alter the ratio too much i.e. excessive Pregesterone cream you will fix one problem but cause another, youll alter DHEA and other areas that control hormones as its all linked (The adreanls and tyroid). Less is going to be more for some people while real hormonal acne women might find more is better at first but cutting back will be important. Maybe more important is how much you help your liver to deal with the stress your putting on it. Ok your fixing or relieving hormonal problems but all these hormones are heading straight to a congested liver in a high percentage of acne throne people. A congested liver maybe 50% of the problem while unbalanced hormones is the other 50% and this simple truth is universal for acne, also diet.
You eat way too much simple sugars (causing too much insulin) 'Unbalancing your hormones'
Your congested liver cant deal with the excess hormones and/or leaky gut expels used hormones back into the blood
You go on a heavy detox 'Creating extra toxins'
Your congested liver cant deal again
You displace Estrogen with a weaker version (DIM,flax etc) causing xenoestrogen to be free flowing
Your congested liver cant deal with the extra burden

All these sinarios cause either acne or can make you ill or cause other health issues.


#40 alternativista

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 02:06 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 3 2008, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.


It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.