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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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Think ive worked somthing out.

I can see why using DIM, flax seed etc and progesterone can break people out.

Once you flush out xenoestrogens your basically increasing toxins in the body and if your liver cant expel used hormones fast enough you will get more acne. (this explains why im ill after using 5grams of flax seed lignans in the last week! and why im breaking out from using it)

This also explains why using Calcium D-gluconate and liver building/cleansing herbs and high fiber diets help as this flushes out used hormones faster!

This also links in candida into the equation as candida and leaky gut goes hand in hand. Leaky gut also can leak used hormones back into your system. Thus your increasing how much hormones are in the body simply because the bowels are not working well and leading to an increase in cancer, esp women as they go up and down each month with body estrogen and this explains why women get PMS.

I think anyone on DIM,Soya, flax, I3C should indefinatly take anything to increase liver detoxification. Including Calcium D-gluconate any liver building/cleansing herbs and anything to increase phase 2 of liver detoxifiation...and guess what some of these are...

TAURINE

GLUTAMINE

GLUTATHIONE

GLYCINE

TAURINE

CYSTEINE

SULPHUR PHYTOCHEMICALS (GARLIC,CABBAGE,BROCCOLI,ONIONS,LEAKS,CAULIFLOWERS,BRUSSEL SPROUTS)

N.A.C

METHIONINE

CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE

QUERCETIN

LIPOLIC ACID

Well this is all making sense. Thing is I knew about this before but I didnt undestand it how I do now.

If you dont have enough raw material in phase 2 detoxification of the liver then it cant deal with the excess hormones that DIM,flax,I3C dispalce creating xenoestrogens.


2gs of vitamin c

60 mg of optizinc

2gs of fish oil

dermalogica cleanser(until i use it up and then i will find a natural light cleanser)

nucelle 10% mandellic acid or Volcano-X sulfur cream when my skin is feeling dry.


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Glutathione will have to be sublingual or nasal spray or maybe there is transdermal? because it breaks down in the digestive system and prob. won't ever make it out of the dig. tract in any usable form.

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Hey ev'body. Just came off a holiday weekend (niiiice) and am still having rolling power blackouts in the whole country so I will only be posting limited amount.

As for me, I started DIM+CDG+Taurine Friday night. I had thought I would start with only DIM and taurine, I decide to go for it all, since I had been out in the god-awful pollution Friday and felt like I need to get started on the CDG for reasons beyond skin (uh, cancer).

Anyway, I wasn't gonna say how it was going til I saw results or no results, but might as well just say that there seems to be something magical about the 3rd day. Today (morning after the 3rd full day) was definitely improved in texture, redness, and healing.

I also experienced the grogginess and would have slept great the past few days if my family hadn't had other ideas (intermittent wakings at 3am and 5am due to cat and kid). Definitely lucid dreaming too. Some mild head discomfort (not really a headache) that felt like something was going on in my body--only the first 2 days. I have also been downing 100% pure cranberry juice (whew, tart!) to support my kidneys. I am doing this because I am afraid of kidney stones for other reasons (calcium) but thought it couldn't hurt this process.

Anyway, I've been trying to work something out on DIM dosage and have posted it in some of the threads where people are reporting bad results (I think dosage may be a culprit). Please take a look and see what you think. I don't know what the magic is in taurine. Obviously it is a phase 2 supporting factor and it has the properties that Lili promotes regarding sugar metabolism, etc...but it also has osmoregulatory effects (something that original drew me to it and Lili's posts, but in relation to the immune system). http://www.mgwater.com/taurine.shtml#cellular

So I think DIM has some anti-androgen, excess/exo estrogen removal, immune function support, anti inflammatory properties that are all very much in need to those with acne. I think taurine helps with the phase 2 removal and also with the immune function. I think most people agree that when you have acne you generally have a hyperactive immune system that gets too gung ho over the least little clogged+bacteria-residing pore and causes swelling and redness that doesn't necessarily occur in those without acne. People without acne still hav p.acn bacteria on their face and still get minorly clogged pores but their immune systems doesn't attack it so veraciously. Further, it is possible that people with acne have a gung ho initial immune response (neutrophils) with a sluggish clean up crew (macrophages), causing long healing times and break-outs over top of or near old breakouts. I think the osmoregulatory function of taurine may help with healing...to help get some of the broken up particles that macrophages need to "digest" in and out easily. I know this is taking things in a totally different direction, but I think it is ALL of these things. I'm just trying to place the reason the additional taurine seems to help and it makes sense. I think it *enhances* the immuno properties of DIM (obviously there are immuno properties, just look at activamune's website). Its the reason why people say "I got 2 new whiteheads today but they were really minor and are already starting to go away."

Anyway, sorry this is train-of-thought and disjointed and I won't go on much longer...but I think there's alot of benefits here and I'll keep you posted on my ideas (electricity permitting ).

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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.

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bump

This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.

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Bump. Because it contains tons of valuable info about the liver, estrogen dominance, bad estrogens, etc.

I'm not suggesting that you take DIM. Just read.

Also, this one is good for the discussion on diet's effect on PMS and menstruation. We aren't meant to suffer like so many women do every month. Not at all, really.

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/DIM-appea....html&st=80


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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Anyone know of/have progress updates?


"Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm."

- Abraham Lincoln


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excuse me an update is definitely in order~!

There was some great discussions in this thread, though I fear the lack of reporting is that no amazing results have occurred. Still, would love to hear?

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excuse me an update is definitely in order~!

There was some great discussions in this thread, though I fear the lack of reporting is that no amazing results have occurred. Still, would love to hear?

Because I think most people get better results from diet habits and/or boosting progesterone via cream or chasteberry vitex than from flushing estrogen via DIM. That seems to only help temporarily if at all.

But yes, while I don't recommend DIM, I do recommend people read the very good information in this thread.


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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excuse me an update is definitely in order~!

There was some great discussions in this thread, though I fear the lack of reporting is that no amazing results have occurred. Still, would love to hear?

Because I think most people get better results from diet habits and/or boosting progesterone via cream or chasteberry vitex than from flushing estrogen via DIM. That seems to only help temporarily if at all.

But yes, while I don't recommend DIM, I do recommend people read the very good information in this thread.

This DIM thing sounded perfect so why have you chosen to NOT recommend it?? I'm confused. I hope this thread hasn't died out...it was one of the most helpful here.

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This DIM thing sounded perfect so why have you chosen to NOT recommend it?? I'm confused. I hope this thread hasn't died out...it was one of the most helpful here.

Because it's better to eat and live right to help your body balance hormones itself than to experiment in altering your hormones. It's very difficult to know what's actually going on with your hormones. This is why gyno's prescribe birth control pretty much by trial and error.

And because almost everyone who tried it decided to drop it.

But, yes, it is a very informative thread. One of the best. But because of the other info, not the DIM.


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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What an interesting topic.

I'm taking I3C now. I have been taking it for 3 months 400 mg a day with no success so far.

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I wanted to bump this thread again because it is just soo interesting to read all these posts. I have skimmed through it but will read more in depth later. I am intrigued by DIM and what it can do, but it seems there are confilcting views about taking it.


 

Limited dairy/gluten - everything in moderation - lots of healthy fats, fruit and veggies.

Going full Paleo in January 

-------------------------------------------------------

Differin - week 21

Duac


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You should also read this one:

And to add to the discussion in these two threads about whether we really should be hemorrhaging blood every month as considered normal, which I believe it is not. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And I found and posted some anthropoligcal observances of a 'primative' culture or two in which they found few complaints of menstrual problems.

See this post for some interesting discussion and an explanation on why it happens after ovulation and failure to conceive:

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/19651.html

http://triviatriviatrivia.blogspot.com/2005/11/on-topic-of-menstrual-bleeding.html

Ovulation, in the healthy woman, occurs without menstruation. Menstruation occuring coincident with ovulation is not normal. Weak muscles in the abdominal area contribute to the haemorrhage condition that the menstruating woman experiences monthly. After the woman ovulates, there is a thickening of the mucus membrane lining the uterus, in preparation for conception. When conception does not occur, this thickened membrane is sloughed off. In the weak and toxic woman, this sloughing is accompanied by a haemorrhage of the small capillaries that have built up behind this mucous membrane, again in preparation for conception. In the healthy woman the mucous lining is passed out as a very slight mucus discharge. The many fine capillaries diminish in number until preparation is again made for conception after normal ovulation. Due to a weakness of the capillary walls and excessive inflammation, the toxic woman experiences a haemorrhage of the uterus, a pathological condition, which, because of its near universality, she mistakes as part of the normal function of ovulation.

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Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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You should also read this one:

And to add to the discussion in these two threads about whether we really should be hemorrhaging blood every month as considered normal, which I believe it is not. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And I found and posted some anthropoligcal observances of a 'primative' culture or two in which they found few complaints of menstrual problems.

See this post for some interesting discussion and an explanation on why it happens after ovulation and failure to conceive:

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/19651.html

http://triviatriviatrivia.blogspot.com/2005/11/on-topic-of-menstrual-bleeding.html

Ovulation, in the healthy woman, occurs without menstruation. Menstruation occuring coincident with ovulation is not normal. Weak muscles in the abdominal area contribute to the haemorrhage condition that the menstruating woman experiences monthly. After the woman ovulates, there is a thickening of the mucus membrane lining the uterus, in preparation for conception. When conception does not occur, this thickened membrane is sloughed off. In the weak and toxic woman, this sloughing is accompanied by a haemorrhage of the small capillaries that have built up behind this mucous membrane, again in preparation for conception. In the healthy woman the mucous lining is passed out as a very slight mucus discharge. The many fine capillaries diminish in number until preparation is again made for conception after normal ovulation. Due to a weakness of the capillary walls and excessive inflammation, the toxic woman experiences a haemorrhage of the uterus, a pathological condition, which, because of its near universality, she mistakes as part of the normal function of ovulation.

These posts are from raw vegan dieters and apparently it's pretty common for them to bleed so they would obviously be seeking an explanation that shows they are right that raw veganism is how humans should eat.

But, there's still that bit about how it just plain doesn't make any sense to drip blood all over the jungle and savannah when there are so many predators about. And women who spend up to a week in pain every 28 days likely wouldn't survive our hunter gatherer days. It think this is another one of those things we've come to believe is normal, but really isn't. Or shouldn't be. Like many of the diseases of old age. Which we now get younger and younger.


 

Limited dairy/gluten - everything in moderation - lots of healthy fats, fruit and veggies.

Going full Paleo in January 

-------------------------------------------------------

Differin - week 21

Duac


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