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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.

26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.

Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.

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Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.

26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.

Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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jodiat:

a couple of things: as I have heard some reports of other DIM-related affects in women (re: mood & libido), I ordered it last week and am trying to stick to the research into DIM so that if it doesn't work for me at first I can make adjustments. Thats why I've stayed away from the flax discussion. However, flax would probably be a hell of alot easier to find in Europe and I'd love to think it could work. However, here's my concern. I'm afraid that exogenous estrogens (toxins in the xeno form and healthy phyto) could be what is leading to some estrogen imbalance in some people. I understand that the weaker phytoestrogen would bind to the receptor and exert a weaker influence...but I don't know if, as a woman, that is what I want. Furthermore, what happens to the endogenous estrogens that my body makes? Or more importantly, what happens to androgens that can convert by way of aromatase to my body's natural estrogens? If receptors say "I got my estrogen (flax)..I'm cool." then does any androgens just stay androgens or convert to testo and perhaps DHT resulting in acne?? Wouldn't it have to be flushed out somehow? Now, some men may benefit from flax because it would introduce a weaker (hopefully non-boob-forming) phyto-estrogen that can tell the body to crank up the SHBG, which would leave less testo for causing acne problems. I think its individual and VERY complicated.

nice article: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/412853_3


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.

26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


My skin is clear. Antibiotics, BP, Differin, and Yaz. Now down to just Differin and Yaz. Soon going to wean off Yaz. Took over 3 months to see much improvement. Less than 6 months since I started and my skin is 100% clear now.


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Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.

26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.

Yeah, I read that too, and I posted in one of the other threads. But everyone ignored it.


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i've not heard of flax lignans, but i put milled flax seed in my food. same thing???

Yep, same thing. Flax seeds naturally contain lignans.


My skin is clear. Antibiotics, BP, Differin, and Yaz. Now down to just Differin and Yaz. Soon going to wean off Yaz. Took over 3 months to see much improvement. Less than 6 months since I started and my skin is 100% clear now.


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There are several links to articles and reasarch on Estrogen dominance here if anyone wants to look into them.

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/hormones/estrogen.html


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

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Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.

this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer

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Flax lignans are also anti-androgens (less strong than DIM).

Btw, Do you guys think Calcium D-Glucarate does the same thing as DIM in the body?


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Estrogen Metabolism

Calcium-D-glucarate's inhibition of beta-glucuronidase activity allows the body to excrete hormones such as estrogen before they can become reabsorbed. Oral administration of large doses of calcium-D-glucarate have been shown to lower serum estrogen levels in rats by 23 percent. (21) Because many breast cancers are estrogen-dependent, calcium-D-glucarate's ability to affect estrogen and other hormone levels has led to Phase I clinical trials at several major cancer centers in the United States. Results of these studies are pending.

Side Effects and Toxicity

No adverse effects have been observed after prolonged feeding to rats or mice at concentrations of 70, 140, or even 350 mmol/kg. (6) Preliminary results of clinical trials in humans have shown calcium-D-glucarate is without adverse effects.


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

valo, who had great results was also using taurine.

dimplus has protectins (cabbage, broccoli, etc)...maybe this helps w/phase II ??

sometimes people are already doing things that assist phase II. basically, anyone w/out success should add a phase II inducer.

canary website is fantastic btw

also, I posted a link a while back that shows that DIM without adoubt works on cyp19 (aromatase),meaning it is anti-androgen.

this explains the sebum drying and immediate effect. but it is also apparently a powerful phase 1 inducer


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Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...Dominance.cfm#2


It is like a reason that picks you up

And places you

Where you always wanted

To be.

*Moderator edit - Linking to websites other than Acne.org in your signature is not allowed*


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Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...Dominance.cfm#2

Did you guys read this?


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...Dominance.cfm#2

Did you guys read this?


My skin is clear. Antibiotics, BP, Differin, and Yaz. Now down to just Differin and Yaz. Soon going to wean off Yaz. Took over 3 months to see much improvement. Less than 6 months since I started and my skin is 100% clear now.


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There are several links to articles and reasarch on Estrogen dominance here if anyone wants to look into them.

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/hormones/estrogen.html

Great Find! I've only read 1/3 of it and am already fascinated!


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?

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Good questions.

For CDG id look at 3 times per day at 500mg for a week or two then drop down to two per day with each big meals. Then after time use it once per day. Like you said its possible we need it daily as an acne sufferer just to give out conjested livers the boost it needs to bind and flush out these extra toxins and hormones.

I tend to take stuff with food unless its states better on empty stomach, I try not to get bamboozled over times of taking stuff and mainly take stuff with a meal and I would do the same with any liver enhancing tablets and also with DIM (tho I take my flax on empty and/or with soups. I take my vitamins and minerals with meals aswell, or at least with a protein drink with coconut oil.

I think stressing that we need protein is right aswell (or maybe easier to supplement with the key binders like Taurine, methionine, cdg to an extent, etc) but not going overboard as it slows bowel transit time, which leads me to my next point.

I think fiber is going to be much more important while using DIM/Flax etc and CDG or other liver enhancers. This combination will be attacking hormonal imbalance, flushing and binding them faster and more efficiently, but after the liver they will go through the bowels and urine. So bowel movements of once per day are desired (maybe aiming for 2).

So if doing a having bowel detox is out of the question we are going to need things that help bowel movements.

Soluble/Insoluble Fiber

Probiotics

Adding more fiber through diet is the best way but a supplement like psyliam husks would be useful to increase transit while not eating excess protein. Probiotics can be from sour milk or yhogurt or supplements like Primal defence.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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See what i have to say about substances found in broccoli here on this post:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...p;#entry2213576

also, see:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...li%20pill\

I have DIM arriving probably tomorrow to see for myself if I get the same result that others are reporting. When I run out of it, rather than reorder, I will give broccoli pills a try to compare DIM results to broccoli pills.

Seems the answer was there all along in that old thread but maybe we know more now about how it works.

(Not to mention that things might sabotage it...like green tea alone causing DHT spike!)

Gotta go. More later. Please give me your thoughts.

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++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?

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++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?

Hi Guys,

I understand that both DIM and CDG can help rid the body of xenoestrogens and other toxins, but that DIM may also have other properties that help with acne...The consensus here seems to be, try DIM for a month or two and then use CDG for maintenance...why can't we use DIM for maintenance? IS CDG supposed to be safer, or is it better studied? Thanks


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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