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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.


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jodiat, if the DIM works due to p-450 & liver-related mechanisms, do you think progesterone cream can work as well?

I don't believe so.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.


<3 :) <3


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So it should be easy to say: start with ____, if unsuccessful then add ____. When effect "fades", reduce dose of _____.

My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.

'The resulting deficit of active natural retinoids may lead to abnormal sebocyte differentiation and hyperkeratinization of the follicular canal implicating the development of acne in some patients.'

From this im not 100% sure as im not educated enough to read this and make full sense of it but I read it that like we mentioned, DIM increases toxins, xenoestrogens and makes more free radicals which could attack DNA and this would lead to an increase in acne if you have acne, only if phase 2 is compromised or not able to cope with what phase 1 produces.

cyp1a1 im going to look at abit.

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jodiat,

please see these links. note the cyp1a1. there seems to be more at work with DIM than just hormonal--perhaps gene transcription or something. if so, it could show long term affects i think.

'The resulting deficit of active natural retinoids may lead to abnormal sebocyte differentiation and hyperkeratinization of the follicular canal implicating the development of acne in some patients.'

From this im not 100% sure as im not educated enough to read this and make full sense of it but I read it that like we mentioned, DIM increases toxins, xenoestrogens and makes more free radicals which could attack DNA and this would lead to an increase in acne if you have acne, only if phase 2 is compromised or not able to cope with what phase 1 produces.

cyp1a1 im going to look at abit.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1592015...Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1791385...Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1704707...Pubmed_RVDocSum

It seems to work on all the right places, there just hasn't been an acne specific study yet. But coupled with the incredible anecdotal evidence of users....looks promising. Doesn't hurt that it is anti-cancer. VERY appealing supplement.

(note: last study involved bio available DIM, as if maybe it makes a difference--for those who have asked. ??)

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I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Regimen

No Soap/cleansers

Plenty of Epsom salt baths

Diet/supps:

-Whole body Healing from *moderator edit - url removed - please read the board rules* since 7/3/08=no more acne, sebderm, rosacea, sickness


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I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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http://www.canarys-eye-view.org/metabolic_.../estrogens.html

http://www.canarys-eye-view.org/supplement...trogen-mod.html

http://www.canarys-eye-view.org/supplements/caldg.html

Have you read these? Might be helpful. Im using Flax seed lignans and others here ahev used this and its worked well for them. Mainly tho it seems the effects of DIM and Flax lignans are similar in their outcome? So im interested in what you find.


My skin is clear. Antibiotics, BP, Differin, and Yaz. Now down to just Differin and Yaz. Soon going to wean off Yaz. Took over 3 months to see much improvement. Less than 6 months since I started and my skin is 100% clear now.


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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

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I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?


Regimen

No Soap/cleansers

Plenty of Epsom salt baths

Diet/supps:

-Whole body Healing from *moderator edit - url removed - please read the board rules* since 7/3/08=no more acne, sebderm, rosacea, sickness


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ryu--

I want to see if we can identify some missing piece of the puzzle or an interference.

what else are you taking (supplements, prescriptions, etc) and what sort of diet do you follow? please list anything that can have an effect (high protein or low protein diet?, high or low fat?, fish oil, drinking green tea, taking aloe, probiotic foods, coconut oil, cocoa, dark berries, green smoothies, tran-fats, diet sodas, sugars, etc...alot of "foods" are more effective than drugs in affecting your body, so please list as much as you can) and also toxin exposure (like do you work in a printing press or something? long shot, but if there is something important, tell us) do you "work out"? are you under excessive (more than usual) stress? have you ever had signs of hair thinning in the past?

also, what brand, ingredients list, dosage per pill, and how do you take them (when? with food? how many?)?

Thanks for the honest reporting! :)

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I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?

Id say yes, once you stop DIM and other areas are not addresed then it would be only time before it goes back 'as it was'.


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I'm also finding that DIM inactivates NF kappa-B which is involved in acne lesions. Also, DIM downregulates androgen receptors!!

Hmmm, wouldnt that mean that the receptors would rev back up later on during "treatment" or after stopping causing a rebound effect?

Id say yes, once you stop DIM and other areas are not addresed then it would be only time before it goes back 'as it was'.

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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.

DIM is a Phytonutrient. Its still a Phytoestrogen. This is how DIM works, its formed from C.vegtables, similar to soya and flax lignans. It replaces the bodies Estrogen with its own natural weaker Estrogen effects at recptor sites. This makes the ratio of Estrogen better and helps progesterone levels. It still does not address the main problem that you need to increase progesterone over changing Estrogen levels for hormonal balance and for acne, cancer reduction. Use caution tho as progesterone over use is a problem in itself!

http://www.mercola.com/article/progesterone/cream.htm

Check this if your opting for Progesterone cream which IMO is attacking the root of hormonal imbalance instead of using the other method of altering Estrogen motabalism to help progesterone levels


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Some people who have seen results on their acne with DIM have indicated better quality of sleep (deep restful sleep). Perhaps one's sleep or lack thereof using DIM is a good marker of whether DIM is appropriate for them or not.????? Anyway, I think it takes some time and dose adjustment before giving up on it.

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Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.

26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


sorry, my english is not perfekt:-)


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jodiat:

a couple of things: as I have heard some reports of other DIM-related affects in women (re: mood & libido), I ordered it last week and am trying to stick to the research into DIM so that if it doesn't work for me at first I can make adjustments. Thats why I've stayed away from the flax discussion. However, flax would probably be a hell of alot easier to find in Europe and I'd love to think it could work. However, here's my concern. I'm afraid that exogenous estrogens (toxins in the xeno form and healthy phyto) could be what is leading to some estrogen imbalance in some people. I understand that the weaker phytoestrogen would bind to the receptor and exert a weaker influence...but I don't know if, as a woman, that is what I want. Furthermore, what happens to the endogenous estrogens that my body makes? Or more importantly, what happens to androgens that can convert by way of aromatase to my body's natural estrogens? If receptors say "I got my estrogen (flax)..I'm cool." then does any androgens just stay androgens or convert to testo and perhaps DHT resulting in acne?? Wouldn't it have to be flushed out somehow? Now, some men may benefit from flax because it would introduce a weaker (hopefully non-boob-forming) phyto-estrogen that can tell the body to crank up the SHBG, which would leave less testo for causing acne problems. I think its individual and VERY complicated.

nice article: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/412853_3

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Many patients are taking diindolylmethane (DIM) or indole 3 carbinol (I3C) for "safe" estrogen metabolism. These substances improve the "2/16" ratio, which is known to decrease the risk of breast cancer.(25) But not all patients need DIM or I3C, as they may already have a healthy 2/16 ratio, and using these substances may overly decrease the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone fraction, increasing risk for osteoporosis.(26)

25. Kabat GC, O'Leary ES, Gammon MD, et al. Estrogen metabolism and breast cancer. Epidemiology. 2006;17(1):80-8.

26. Lim SK, Won YJ, Lee JH, et al. Altered hydroxylation of estrogen in patients with postmenopausal osteopenia.. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82(4):1001-6.


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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